For Women Only-To test the misogyny theory

[joeprogressive]

Another thread suggested that the anti-Hillary crowd is being guided by misogynistic attitudes. I think Hillary would be a terrible candidate b/c she rallies the base of the other party. I am also troubled by her move to the right for political expedience. But most troubling is not just her vote on IWR but her inability to admit it was a mistake. Sounds like someone we know huh?

Hillary is only the frontrunner of the Democratic party because the mainstream media has artificially created this hype. Hell, they give her way more lip service than candidates that have expressed an interest in running or who have already announced.

I have said it before and I'll say it one more time. Hillary would make a fine president but the problem is she has no chance of winning. But what do I know, I am just a stupid man.

Are there any women out there that think Hillary has little or no chance of winning? I would have done a poll but didn't donate last go around. Maybe someone else can post a women's only poll of Hillary against the rest of the field.

[BonnieJW]

1. I don't think she can win either.

You hear the pundits say she will be the Dem nominee all the time, but they are pub pundits. They WANT Hill to run because she cannot win.

[Captain Hilts]

3. They want her to run because it's a good story. They're whores for a good story.

That was part of the appeal to them of GWB also.

Son, redeaming his father's loss, etc.

[Tracer]

28. You got that one right, Bonnie.

n/t

[Captain Hilts]

2. Franklin Roosevelt and Bill Clinton rallied the base of the other party.

I was in political polling for eight years.

It's just too early to make any clear judgements on electability of any candidate.

Voting patterns in presidential elections are a function of the candidates that each party nominates. A significant percentage of voters will vote for the candidate of either party. They will not decide until they see who the nominees are.

So, it's too early to rule out anyone.

ps. I don't think McCain or Giuliani have a snowball's chance in hell of getting the nomination.

ppss. I'm female and a Clarkie.

[joeprogressive]

5. I agree, the repubs tend to go more conservative in the primaries

I would love to see them nominate Brownback. Hillary might be able to win against him. But why take the chance when you could run Clark.

[Nite Owl]

4. I'll agree with you on that.

They have all their research done, they have their fundraising done with Hillary. Maybe people have grown tired of the same old negativity and it won't work this time round but that is a big chance to take considering who could win on their side. She is a divisive figure and we don't need more of that.

[Jennicut]

6. I am a woman and don't want Hillary for prez

To me, its because she seems so power hungry. I want the right person. I don't care what gender or race or age. I voted for Clinton in 1996 at 20 years old because I felt he was better that Dole but I have always been wary of the Clintons because of their need for power and control and doing what was politically easy instead of taking the tough but sometimes correct road. I would much prefer Gore if he ran or Wes Clark. Obama would be fine a s a VP candidate.

[Captain Hilts]

41. Everyone who runs for president is power hungry!

FDR was power hungry!
Eisenhower was power hungry!
Gore was power hungry!

They all are that way.

Everyone in the senate thinks they'd be a great president.

[joeprogressive]

49. Prove Gore was power hungry, because he seems like the

least likely person after Kucinich and Clark that are power hungry.

[joeprogressive]

7. BTW I love and respect all women; except Babs Bush.

n/t

[BeliQueen]

8. Hillary makes me uneasy

I don't think she'll make a good president, and not because she's a woman. I saw her at a rally once, and my immediate gut reaction was "blech."

Barbara Boxer was there too, and my immediate reaction to her was respect and affection. I think she'd make an excellent president.

[joeprogressive]

19. agreed, I could support Boxer

and I will support HRC if she wins the nomination. However, if HRC is nominated and she loses knowing that she would lose; I might drop out of the Democratic party for a long while.

[Captain Hilts]

32. How would she "know" she would lose? Has she got ESP? Did Kerry "know?"

This is one of the weirder things I've read.

[joeprogressive]

38. she wouldn't b/c she has a self inflated view of herself.

But I know she would lose and most here knows she would lose. It's like the WMD claim: Although Bush claimed the world and the intelligence community thought Saddam had WMD's I knew he didn't. That's the thing, there are many people on this board that are more logical than someone like HRC because we make decisions based on fact, not political expedience. I want a leader who will make sound decisions that are good for the country like Gore or Clark.

[Captain Hilts]

40. So does Bush, so does Kerry, so did Gore, so does Obama...

EVERYONE in the senate or has run for president - except, perhaps, for Carter - has an inflated sense of self.

FDR made decisions on political expedience - he condemned the League of Nations to get the Democratic nomination - and Hearst's support in 1932 and he wouldn't come out and support the anti-lynching bill in the late 30s so as not to lose support of southern conservatives.

Bill Clinton supported a destructive 'welfare reform' bill.

That's the way politics, and Washington, works.

[OzarkDem]

58. Me, too, though I'm open to reconsider

Its waaay to early for me to make up my mind about any of these candidates. But I've always had some reservations about Hilary. I think she's rather inflexible, not like her husband who was great at collaborating with others and utilizing the best ideas even if they weren't his. I've always suspected that the problems the Clinton administration faced - stonewalling, etc. on the phony GOP scandals instead of addressing them quickly - were due to Hillary's management. She strikes me as someone who operates on the defensive all the time. If my suspicions are correct, and I'm not sure they are, I don't think she would be a good president.

[DeeDeeNY]

9. If she won the nomination, then it's anyone's guess

Even though she is a very polarizing personality, she has actually won over many reluctant New Yorkers the last six years with her work ethic. But personally, I think Obama has a better chance than Hillary of getting elected.

[GenDem]

65. I think she has a chance

just from the hearts and minds she's won over in very conservative western NY. She won my county by 51.9% and we are way outnumbered by republicans. And DeeDeeNY's right - she has worked very hard in NY. If she ever were to be elected president she would work hard for the American people...say what you want about her, but this would be a fact.

[no_hypocrisy]

10. I don't think it's outright misogyny as I remember in 1972

when Shirley Chisholm, an African-American woman, ran for president and she did not generate this much protest and condemnation. I think it's Hillary due to her tenure in the White House, the image she projects as Hillary (both as Bill's wife and in her own right and reputation), the myths surrounding her, and the betting odds on her successful candidacy to the White House as well as ability to motivate voters to elect democrats to Congress. It isn't as simple as it's because she is a woman.

[Captain Hilts]

31. People did not take Chisholm seriously as a candidate. It was 'cute'. I miss her. nt

[no_hypocrisy]

34. I took her seriously. We need more candidates like her. Period.

[Captain Hilts]

36. You'll get no argument from me. But her candidacy was not taken seriously in a year...

where there were so many candidates.

I LOVED how she complained about being placed on the forestry committee in Congress. Or was it Agriculture? Though, part of me thinks she would have been very good on the agriculture committee. The consumer's view rather than the producer's.

[ellenfl]

11. i have been saying for months now that hillary's presidential

candidacy is a rw construct. apparently they have even convinced HER to run! i hope she doesn't because i don't believe she can win. on the bright side, we ARE the ones who have been touting the concept of checks and balances and of no one party having total control.

personally, i think she has moved too far to the right. i want a progressive, not another bill clinton. as much as i like him as a man and as good a job he did in his 8 years, he DID bring us nafta and, what i consider, mean-spirited welfare reform. but then, i believe that the welfare mothers and children suffered, and the fathers got away scott-free.

ellen fl

[peace13]

12. I agree with you and I resent the media picking our candidate.

I know many Dem's who would not pick Hillary but would vote for her if that was their only choice. I know many Repugs that would never vote for Hillary. As a Dem woman who supported Pres. Clinton I have not been impressed with his, for better words, 'nose up Pappy Bush's *ss' in the recent past! We need change in this country and in my opinion anyone who rubs elbows with the Bush family is a bad choice! Why for once, after fighting so hard for America, can't we have a candidate of our choice? Why do we have to settle? Peace on earth, Kim

[joeprogressive]

20. amen sister

n/t

[savemefromdumbya]

13. I think she would win the nomination

I'm sure that things have been put into motion to make sure that she does?

She would make a good President but so would Gore

[Arkansas Granny]

14. I hope Hillary is not the Democratic candidate because I don't

think she can win, not because she couldn't be a good president. I want the Democratic party to put forth a well-qualified candidate who can win. However, if Hillary is the nominee, I will support her and vote for her.

[MamaBear]

15. I don't see any reason to believe she can govern.

I haven't seen her demonstrate any leadership on any of the issues important to me, except for Plan B contraception. In fact, she has been soft on most progressive issues.

I'm all for a female chief executive. I don't think Hillary would govern in the interests of the people. She is a corporate lawyer first, last and always and will always rule in favor of the bosses.

[abluelady]

16. I Like Hillary

I'm a female. But I think the evil on the other side will destroy her; therefore, she won't win. I think she'd make a fine President. I wish she were more liberal, but nobody liberal enough for me can win.

[bloom]

17. "...a terrible candidate b/c she rallies the base of the other party"

I think that that is a completely bogus reason. If anything - that alone is a reason to support her.

And not just because we have to support what they condemn - but because the agenda of the Republican party (even if they do have Rice and other non-white men in certain positions) is mostly about pushing our country back to Patriarchal, white, male power (as if they ever lost it). That is what the whole Christian Coalition nonsense is about - esp. evident when they insist that their leader push the anti-gay-marriage and anti-abortion platform.

The Republicans (through spokesmen like Limbaugh) are anti-feminist and they encourage racists and they are anti-multicultural, and anti-gay.

To cave into that - to say - "Hillary would be a terrible candidate b/c she rallies the base of the other party" - is to say that they win and we concede without even trying.


The only thing I fault her with is her move to the right (and being a Clinton could be a negative). But she is still a much more viable and likable candidate than Bayh, Kerry, Gore, Clark - or about anyone else. Obama is the only one who approaches her charismatically AFAIC.

[joeprogressive]

21. If you think she is more likable than Gore and Clark I believe

you are delusional. She isn't even that well liked in her own party and she is outright despised by the right.

[bloom]

23. So I'm "Delusional", huh

How do you explain that she polls better than anyone else?

Do you think ALL of the polls are fake? That sounds pretty delusional to me.


That the right despises a strong, outspoken women just reflects their sexism.

[joeprogressive]

24. Sorry to say but our electorate is generally pretty stupid in the political realm

Especially this early in the campaign cycle. How do you explain Bush's re-election in '04 despite 4 previous years of terrible governance? How do you explain Lieberman going from the front runner in '04 to someone that couldn't win his Senatorial primary?

The media has inflated her numbers. Plus she is getting help from conservatives in those polls that want her to get nominated. She polls miserably among well informed people such as DU'ers.

[bloom]

46. "informed people"

are not the ones who pick the nominee.

If it had been up to DUers - Kucinich would have been the best choice in '04.

What we think is not as relevant as people would like to think.


It seems rather ironic to me that you say you are "test(ing) the misogyny theory". What are you testing? Seeing how we respond to misogyny? That is how this is coming across.

[joeprogressive]

47. There was an earlier thread that made the inference that the men of DU

might be driven by misogyny in their lack of of support of her candidacy. I think people here, regardless of gender do not want Hillary to win the primary because they truly believe she will lose in the general election.

[JNelson6563]

18. I would support Granholm (a woman)

if she could run but alas, she was born in Canada.

It's not Hillary's gender, it's everything else IMO.

Julie

[Lurking Dem]

22. Me.

She can't win. She is too divisive and if she is the nominee, Republicans will vote in never-before-seen droves.

I think she is an amazing woman. But her ego is getting in the way of practicality.

As I said in a previous thread, I do not want a political dynasty in this country. Bush has already made us a frickin' banana republic. Why take the final step?

[RubyDuby in GA]

25. I am a woman and I will cut off my fingers before I vote for Hillary

I don't like her for every reason you stated. Her shift to the right or basically saying anything to appease whoever she's speaking to at that moment, i.e. her stance on abortion rights. Her vote for the Iraq War. And as you said, nothing rallies a Republican more than the fear that Hillary could be their president.

She will rip this party apart if she is the nominee.

And just about every other woman I know feels the exact same way.

[joeprogressive]

26. Thanks, and I have yet to meet a woman, conservative or Liberal,

that supports her. I am starting to have the same feelings about Hillary supporters as I did about greens in 2000. Well intentioned but very narrow sighted.

[Missy M]

29. Well, you just met one.....

I think she would make a fine president. She is smart, saavy, a hard worker and knows the political ropes. Many on this board who diss her don't even know her voting record or bother to look it up. Sometimes, when it comes to Hillary, I'm not sure I'm on a democratic board when I'm on this site.

[Captain Hilts]

30. I'll credit her with actually being interested in policy and government.

Unlike Bush, who has no interest in either.

She might be too detail oriented to be a good president. Hard to say.

[joeprogressive]

39. I could flip that argument and say that the people that care the most

about the future of the Democratic party do not want her to win the nomination because she will lose.

[Captain Hilts]

43. There's no way to know she would lose. We don't even know she'd...

make it through the primaries or who she would run against in a general election!

Gee whiz! She's not even my third choice, but it's not because "she would lose." You can't tell. The facts aren't in. The candidates aren't even in.

This is like watching the post-game show before the game has been played.

[Captain Hilts]

33. Our friendships and relationships are self-selecting. If you don't know one

'conservative' or 'liberal' woman who supports her, your world is pretty homogenious.

[joeprogressive]

42. I think my so called homogenous world consists of women

that are logical. Just like the majority on this board that do not support her candidacy.

[Captain Hilts]

44. So, those that support her are not 'logical'? That's a strong statement. nt

[joeprogressive]

45. Thanks, better than a weak one.

Are you sure that you are 100% driven by your logic and have no bias towards wanting a female president? Look at your request for more female avatars. Should there be quotas? If you want to infer that I think HRC supporters are illogical, that is fine. I think they are just as insensitive to the truth as Nader supporters.

[Captain Hilts]

57. I'm "Biased to wanting a female president"? Clark's my 1st choice, Feingold my 2nd.

So, no I don't think I'm "biased toward wanting a female president."

[napi21]

66. You just met me too! I think she could win, and win BIG!

The comment about those on DU actually choosing the candidate is absolutely right! It's NOT us, it's the majority of the Dem voters. So far, looking at the current field of candidates,Ihappen to think she's the best choice! She's also the ONLY candidate who has already been really put through the political wringer, and has learned how to deal with her opposition quite well. Hell, do you remember when that young male toad was debating her during her first Campaign, and he forcefully waliked up to her on stage...and got way too close? Remember that look? SHE was the one who won the points on that one.

I honestly would like all of you to think seriously for a while, and let us know why you REALLY hate this woman. I've heard a lot of reasons but they all seem to be first reactions off the top of your heads.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Hillary's also got that shadow vote going. Folks tell pollsters they wouldn't vote for her...

then go in the booth and pull the 'Hillary' lever.

But, it's just too early to define her as 'unelectable'.

[AlGore-08.com]

35. I am a woman, a lifelong yellow dawg Democrat, and do not support Hillary

I find it offensive when folks post that opposition to Hillary = sexism. Just because Hillary Clinton is also a woman is not a good reason to vote for her. Condi Rice is also a woman. Libby Dole is also a woman. Ann Coulter is also a woman. Does that mean I have to support them for President or be a traitor to my gender?

[SusanaMontana41]

48. Agreed

I got a similar response from a male co-worker when, in answering his question, I said Katie Couric didn't have the gravity to carry CBS News. Does that make me a misogynist? He thinks so.

[joeprogressive]

50. Excellent points, one and all.

n/t

[Morgana LaFey]

37. Your premise is 100% wrong: women can be misogynist too

And too often are. You've heard of "self-hating blacks" (e.g., Clarence Thomas.) "Self-hating Jews"? Well, let me introduce you to the concept of self-hating women. They are women who don't understand the finer points of feminism, perhaps, and therefore fall into line with the judgments and assessments of our patriarchal society about women. Oh, they may not think "z woman's place is in the home," but they don't get it about some of the battles we haven't yet won -- sexiszt language, scantily clad models selling stuff, pornography, etc.

I actually see quite a bit of anti-woman sentiment among too many women here at DU and of course loads and loads of sexism and misogyny from DU men. What bothers me even more regarding DU's sexist men is there are very few men -- basically NONE, in fact -- who will stand up and be counted as pro-woman and challenge sexism among DUers. That job is left to the women, and only a few women at that. It's very discouraging.

All that said, I agree with the rest of your premise: I think your comment that she solidifies THEIR base (against her) is entirely accurate, and worry that she's such a rich target for everything anti-Hillary, and anti-Bill Clinton and rightwing anti-woman that she'd end up so damaged she might not be able to win. But mostly I don't want her to run because I despise her. I'd look forward to a Hillary Clinton administration with rather extreme dread. If you want details, read Molly Ivins:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0120-30.htm

[bloom]

51. While it may be close to NONE

there is at least one man who challenges sexism - ThomCat.

If there are others that I have overlooked, I'm sorry about that. But I did want to mention the one who does consistently challenge other men on their sexism. Which is rampant around here.

[joeprogressive]

52. Could you please provide evidence of sexism?

If HRC bashing is your benchmark, it is weak. That would be like saying that any female that bashed Joe Lieberman was a sexist. I would like to see some proof because personally I have seen none.

[bloom]

55. Recent threads

21% out and out admit to it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2702685


Then there are discussions like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2761987#2806512


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2541072#2541175

____________

And then you have stuff like the guys who go the the Women's Issues forum to post sexist stuff or pretend that women are sexist when they object to sexism (that is common in GD, as well).

[joeprogressive]

60. What specious arguments

The first one was a completely bogus poll with poorly defined choices.

The second was written by a woman and the third was hardly sexist. Are there sexists on this board? I'm sure there is one for every hyper feminist. Whoops I said the F word, I guess I am a sexist now. Are you a man hater?

[Morgana LaFey]

70. What is specious are your dismissals of the examples

But then we pretty much knew -- or should have -- that you didn't really want to LEARN, just argue. There was an abundance of sexism in those threads -- some rathe vile, some rather subtle -- but in the one case you simply dismissed the OP as if that was all there was to the thread. Yeah, that'll work. Specious.

[Blue_In_AK]

53. We are not Hillary supporters in this household.

My husband, who is a good Democrat, says he absolutely will not vote for her. I probably will, if she's the nominee, but not happily. I don't think anybody would even be considering her for president if she hadn't been the wife of Bill, and it's unknowable if she would have even been elected senator without that name recognition. She hasn't done anything in the Senate to impress me. I think we can do a lot better.

ed. I meant this in response to the original post.

[joeprogressive]

54. If I would have said that she has only ascended to her position

via Bill, I would have been labeled a sexist by some on this board. I am glad it came from the mouth of a female.

[Blue_In_AK]

56. I'm equal opportunity

There are a lot of people in politics who wouldn't be in their positions without their family connections - most notably the Chimp in Chief.

[noamnety]

74. Thanks Morgana

exactly what I was settling down to type, but I see you beat me to it.

[Catherine Vincent]

59. I rather she run for vice president.

For all we know, that is what her (and others) goal is.

[Cleita]

61. I don't have the insane hatred of Hillary that the freepers have

and if she were the presidential candidate, I would vote for her, but not in the primaries for the reasons you have stated.

However, on the plus side if she is elected President, she would have the best presidential advisor on the face of this earth, Bill Clinton.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

62. I have no interest in Hillary as President.

After her IWR vote, her flag burning bullshit, and her general right tilt in public, I view her as a politician in the worst, most vulgar sense of the word.

As for her ability to win an election -- her nomination would be a right-wing wetdream. All the true and untrue dirty laundry would be resurrected for everyone to savor one more time -- her ability to get a message out would be near impossible. The GOP would raise record amounts of cash by conjuring up the idea of ol' Bill and Hil back in the White House -- how many thousands of dollars could they get from pounding the message of another four years of Oval office blow-jobs for Bill if she gets elected? She energizes the GOP and polarizes the Dems.

I don't like/want Hillary because of what she has done, not because she is a female. Barbara Boxer for President? In a heartbeat.

I wanted to add: I have been voting in Presidential elections since 1980. That means that, for over half of my life and my entire voting life, there has been a Bush or a Clinton in the White House. Frankly, I am done with both families. Basta! Are these people the best we can do??? I think not. I want new, envigorated blood in there.

[Killarney]

63. Woman here. Hillary is a bad choice.

I don't think she has a chance in hell of winning unless the Repubs put up their most extreme nutter with a lot of scandals. She has NO CHANCE AT ALL against McCain whom the media seems to adore.

[tammywammy]

64. I'm a woman, and I don't think I'd vote for Hillary.

I've never posted in any of the pro/anti Hillary threads before.

I would like to see where she goes in the next year, but as of now, I'm not a big Hillary fan. It has nothing to do with her being a woman for me. I liked when she was the First Lady that she was not the typical throwing parties, decorating, etc First Lady that we usually have. I liked that she was willing to jump into actual policy making (or policy helping) with her husband. I think they're a great, powerful, political couple.

But on her own, I just don't like her for the 2008 Presidency. If I was going to pick a powerful woman in politics to run for the presidency, it would be Boxer. But in general, I don't vote based on gender, just like I don't vote based on race.

I work with some hard-core dems, and none are really favorable towards Hillary.

As far as winning goes, I think it would be tough for her during the primaries. I don't think that she'd run if she didn't think that she could win. Also, for the general election, I think it will depend on who goes up against her. If it's someone like Giuliani, I know a lot of moderates who really like him, and I think she'd have a tough go round.

But really, who knows?? It's quite a ways away. A lot can change in the next year and a half.

[Samurai_Writer]

67. I'm a woman who doesn't want Hillary to run

I think she's far too right-of-center, a corporatist, and realistically, she's tainted by the scandals of the Clinton White House. Add in the fact that the majority of men in this country would never vote for a woman, no matter who she is, and I don't think she's a winnable candidate.

[hippiechick]

68. Yes, me - and for the same reasons you list.

... of course I've been called all kinds of nasty names because of my position.


:eyes:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

69. I can't swallow a HRC presidency

simply because I don't like the flavor of Dynasty in American politics. Nothing against her, but having two presidents from the same family elected in the same generation leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. I don't like when power is concentrated in small families or groups.

[Jennicut]

71. Perhaps Hillary's problem for some people is she is unlikable

And I don't mean unlikable in "Oh my gosh, I can't have a beer with this lady". I mean it in a "well, you never know who she will step on next to get to the top" kind of way or "letsa just do this to look politically good" way. Also, I posted earlier that I woundn't vote for Hillary because she is power hungry and another poster said all candidates were and are power hungry. THAT is exactly what is wrong with politics today. I just watched "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" the other night on t.v. and was struck with the idealism and hope that Jimmy Stewart's character had. I want a leader and a candidate who feels they want to change/challenge the system, shake things up a bit. And as a woman in the U.S. it is my right to hope and prey (yes, I am religious, a Lutheran, husband is church organist)for a candidate that wants to stand up and do the right thing. If that candidate is a man than so be it. The time will come for the right woman to come along to be president but I don't feel that the right person is Hillary. Funny that almost all politicians always want to be like Abe Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt and even FDR and JFK. They inspired hope and idealism in politics. In Teddy's case when he ran as a 3rd party candidate he was very outspoken. He was also our first environmental president. That takes guts. Maybe I didn't agree with everything he did but he showed true leadership. Abe kept the country together and at the end of the civil war felt that slavery was evil. FDR gave people hope during the depression, JFK and his brother during a turbulent time in the 60's. None were perfect but they all had that something special that made you believe this country could do and be better. Hillary does not inspire me. The current Al Gore does. I feel like Al was never really comfortable trying to be all things to all people like he tried in 2000 and seems very comfortable now. Wes Clark does. Howard Dean does. Even Obama and Bill Clinton inspire me a little. After Bush we need to be inspired. We need hope, not cynicism and not clawing your way to the top just to be at the top. That's why I can't be for Hillary and it shouldn't matter that I'm a woman.

[ellie]

72. No, I don't think

she is a good candidate or that she will win. Frankly, we need new blood. Are we destined to be saddled with the same candidates year in and year out? Is there no one else? Of course I would vote for her if she got the nod just like I would vote for any Democrat.

[BlueIris]

73. Hillary Clinton cannot win the presidency in 2008 and should not run.

It's as (relatively) simple as that for me. I am also not crazy about any of the decisions she's made since 2004, and see no sign that the disappointingly moderate quality of those decisions, especially with regard to continuing the war, would change if she were Chief Executive. But the bottom line for me is that the corporate media would be all too ready and able to spin a Hillary "loss" in '08, which would probably be believable to most Americans and the world, even if, as occurred with John Kerry's election, the exit polls and other evidence showed a clear victory for the Democratic nominee.

There's just no way around the media factor for me. If we were to run her, we'd be handing the Republicans the 2008 election.

[LWolf]

75. For me, that's not the point.

I don't WANT her in the WH, which overrides the "electability" factor. I really dislike the way that factor is used to promote mediocre candidates and deny superior candidates, anyway. I'm sure she COULD win. I just don't want her to, and I won't help her do so.