If Hillary groupies are sick of the anti-Hillary threads, here's how they could counterract them.

[Ken Burch]

1)Start pushing your candidate to be populist instead of elitist.

2)Listen to activists rather than dissing them.

3)Call on your candidate to allow free votes on the platform at the 2008 convention.

4)Ban luxury boxes and big donors from the 2008 convention.

5)Tell the DLC to go away. Their day is past.

All of the above would help.

[xultar]

1. I didn't think it could be topped. But this is the new stupidest DU post.

[kansasblue]

3. I disagree. Sell us on Hillary. If you can't sell us, then good luck on ...

the rest of the nation.

I believe poster is offering a valid chance to address concerns many people have about Hillary.

Let's hear them.

[xultar]

6. I'm actually a Clark fan. But the HC bashing here is worse than in FREEPERVILLE.

[Critters2]

59. Actually, the Freepers love her. Ever wondered why this is? nt

[ronnykmarshall]

4. Oh I'm sure there be a topper.

[xultar]

7. You were right. Check out #5.

[Ken Burch]

11. You never make an arguement FOR anything xultar.

What the hell do YOU actually believe in? Do you have ANY principles or convictions, or do you believe the party should settle for power in name only again?

[xultar]

15. I'm for DEMOCRATS. NOT AGAINST THEM. I support all Democrats.

THIS IS DU.

[YOY]

36. Sorry Xultar, but just because you're a Dem doesn't mean that everyone with a D after

their name simply must be good folks. There are Dems that simply are not worth merit.

Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Traficant

[hughee99]

45. I was actually thinking about how Joementum

wasn't getting a whole lotta' love here even before he left the party.

[ronnykmarshall]

13. Yup there it is!

[Ken Burch]

5. No that is.

Y'know, you could try actually explaining why you disagree with me. I don't know you and I'm not sure why you think Hillary and the DLC are infallible.

[xultar]

9. I'm not even a HC for Prez fan. You should spend more time ripping the GOP.

[Ken Burch]

12. Then why should you care if I raise these points?

I'm fighting for a living, breathing, winning Democratic party. This can only come from nominating someone else.

[xultar]

21. If you spent 1/2 the time on the GOP you spend on HC DU would be a much better place.

[Ken Burch]

20. I do. But we have to hold our own candidates accountable.

If you're a Clark fan there's no reason for progressive threads to offend you.

[xultar]

22. This isn't a PROGRESSIVE THREAD. It's fucking STOOPID. Take down the GOP.

[Ken Burch]

24. I WANT to take down the GOP,

The DLC doesn't want to.

[xultar]

31. Fuck that. Play a new tune. Tell us who you fucking support and WHY.

Post about who you like too not just who you fucking hate.

[Ken Burch]

34. I like people like Sherrod Brown, Kucinich, Jesse on a good day

(haven't really liked Jesse since he sold out and dismantled the Rainbow Coalition in exchange for...not one fuckin' thing, really...)
Bernie Sanders, Peter DeFazio, Christine Cegalis, and the members of the Progressive Caucus in the House.

In addition to politicians and big names

I like grass roots organizers, union reformers, people who fight for the poor and the workers.

I like those who defend principle, those who bring hope, those who include rather than exclude.

I like open discussion and conventions where REAL decisions are made.

Things like that.

[Cha]

55. No worries..DU is Much Better

place because of you and others who stand up for what they believe..as I'm sure you know.

[station agent]

2. You're working with Hillary

From the past

and you want to change the course of history at the 2004 convention.

You scare me.

[Ken Burch]

8. I want to learn from the past to prevent it happening again.

There will NEVER be another good reason to have a convention like the '92,'96, '00 and '04 conventions again.

There will never be a good reason to elect anyone on Nineties-style DLC policies again.

A convention needs to be a living, activist, galvanizing and GENUINELY POLITICAL event, now a soulless coronation.

And no good has ever come to the party from big donors and luxury boxes.

I'll assume you agree with me that it was wrong to arrest the protesters.

[question everything]

23. Because she is not a candidate, yet?

And this looks to me like a call to action:

3)Call on your candidate to allow free votes on the platform at the 2004 convention.

4)Ban luxury boxes and big donors from the 2004 convention.

Free votes - or lack thereof - and luxury boxes at the 2004 convention are history right now.

If you are thinking of 2008 than you should say ban.... the way it was at the 2004 convention.

If that what you meant than you need to re read your posts to make sure that your meaning is clear, instead of shooting from the hip which it appears this is what you did.

[Ken Burch]

25. OK...Let me amend it to...

"the 2008 convention"

Sorry. Didn't see the typo until now.

Having corrected that, is there anyone who has a SUBSTANTIVE disagreement with what I've suggested?

[question everything]

10. And buy a time machine to do all these things in... 2004

Come on. Clinton is not a candidate, yet and, the same thing can be said about you and your groupies.

Instead of attacking Clinton - or any other candidate - push for your own. I am not a psychologist, but there is something really strange about the need to gain credibility, or whatever, by crapping on someone else.

A disclaimer. I do not support anyone right now. I am certain that this time next year we will have new names that no one is thinking about now and that we will have a clear idea of who is running and who is not and their strengths and weaknesses.

And... I don't think that Senators with no executive experience should even be considered.

[ronnykmarshall]

16. Didn't you get the memo??

Tuesday is attack Hilary day.

[paulk]

42. I must have missed it, too

It's usually Thursday.

I thought Tuesday was attack Obama day.

[Ken Burch]

44. If you'd READ the OP, you'd know that this thread was intended

to give Hillary's supporters the chance to counteract the anti-Hillary feeling on DU and in the party as a whole with a few simple, positive actions.

What is your response to the actual PROPOSALS I made in the OP?

[paulk]

58. I'm not a Hillary supporter

or, as you put it, a Hillary "groupie".

I just have an interest in defending Democrats from the kind of disinformation you've been spreading on this board.



But, since you asked so nice....

I think the proposals you raise are little more than the usual extremist lefty whining, bereft of any real substance that reaches beyond the usual narrow, blinkered view of the world held by the aforementioned "leftists", and, as such, are not worth responding to with much more than derision.

[Ken Burch]

60. A wish for open debate at the convention is "lefty-whining"?

n/t

[Ken Burch]

18. No. Learning from the past is NOT living in the past.

I don't want the Nineties bullshit back. I don't want another defeat.
That's my objective, to elect a living breathing progressive Democratic Party.

And you've completely missed the point of this thread. I'm offering Hillary supporters a way to counteract the distrust most DU'ers feel towards her. Why on earth would you dismiss that?

[Ken Burch]

43. I was for Feingold before he felt compelled to withdraw

I could strongly back Gore, Clark, Obama.

Dean would be ok, but I think its more important to have him at the DNC.

I'd probably campaign for Kucinich again in the primaries, but I know the Beltway types would never allow him to be nominated.

And I'm open to someone new, if a different progressive emerges.

I could accept pretty much anybody who allowed a real debate and free votes on the platform planks at the convention. The convention, whomever it nominates, needs to stop being a bland "politics-free zone". It's not a good sign when the networks STOP COVERING most of the convention.

[SaveElmer]

14. I hear far more complaints...

From anti-Hillary people, complaining that the 10% of us that support her on DU don't agree with them...

Kinda like right wing fundamentalists claiming they are persecuted cause the 10% of Americans that are not Christian reject turning America into a theocracy!

[Caution]

17. They can also use the ignore feature on those DUers

Who feel that they have to bash Senator Clinton at every opportunity, in thread after thread.

Maybe some of those bashing DUer's should take a look at Ms. Clinton's voting record as a whole, particularly the ratings from the various Women's rights groups, and liberal ratings groups.

Project Vote Smart is a good place to look to see that the Senator is in fact a populist, does in fact vote her conscience, does in fact vote the liberal position nearly 90% of the time and would make a fine candidate.

I know I'll be using the ignore feature as soon as I finish with this post, I encourage others to do the same.

[Sapere aude]

19. Two f---ing years of this stuff? Please give us a break will you?

We just won a big election. We have two years to make something good happen before 2008 and we argue about the next election more then about what we should do with the time given to us in 2007 and 2008! I'm all for a place where you all can argue about the next election but not here.

[LynneSin]

26. yup! two f---ing years

Honestly, I gave myself the rest of 2006 off before I start even contimplating who my 2008 nominee choice will be and then that's only the investigatory phase of the process.

You talk to normal folks who don't spend their time in online political forums (hey I know I'm an addict) and I've yet to find someone who wouldn't consider voting for Hillary.

It's just NUTZ!

[Blue_In_AK]

49. You haven't talked to my husband. :)

[Ken Burch]

27. Didn't realize I'd said "2004" instead of "2008". Sorry. My Bad.

n/t.

[Infinite Hope]

28. Fallacies

Keep in mind I'm not particularly a strong Hillary supporter. She's one of the lowest on my list among the likely candidates, but:
1)They don't need to be like you to be right. That presupposes the root of the problem as well as reality.
2)See #1
3)Won't argue with you here.
4)Won't argue with you here.
5)This presupposes the Democratic win was an activist win. Reality is that a more moderate agenda is what won (Pelosi and others restricted what issues they talked about), though the activists were vital. Both sides need to stop seeing it as black and white. Activists are essentially arguing the same thing Evangelicals did after 2004 and it's completely flawed reasoning.

[YOY]

29. Furthermore...

Why should I vote for a hawk?

[xultar]

30. OK. WHO THE FUCK DO YOU SUPPORT. We know you hate Hillary. Play a new tune.

I'm sick of this tired shit.

[Ken Burch]

32. My first choice was Feingold. I could live with Gore or Obama

I'd really prefer Kucinich but we know you party regular types would never allow him to be nominated.

I want a candidate who is open and will listen to activists, who wants a grass roots party, not a top-down elitist party run strictly from the Beltway.

The only way we get such a party is by making a clear break with the Nineties and the DLC.

It's not that I hate Hillary, I just don't want the party to be stuck in a self-destructive and failed political tradition.

And as to "tired shit", until recently YOU'VE never responded substantively to anything I've posted. Did it maybe occur to you that THAT gets a bit worn out?

Try engaging, not abusing.

[xultar]

33. I like all of them. Why not post positive stuff about them. Why HATE????

That hatred shit is so fucking tired and IGNORANT. That's what racist do.
Instead of being positive about themselves they tear the people they hate down.
That's fuckin ignorant. Bring it up a level. Be INTELLIGENT.

[Ken Burch]

35. What I've said about Hillary, and I'm going to move away from that for a bit now

wasn't about personal hatred, it was about a direction I DIDN'T want the party to go on.

Every nomination process should be a wide-open race, with a real place for the grassroots and the idealists and the fighters and the dreamers.

I've spoken with passion about this particular potential candidacy because I sincerely believed that it represented opposition to all of the above. I'm willing to be proved wrong.

And as to "HATE", what have most of your posts in response to mine been? you weren't engaging the discussion, you weren't making a case for why you felt I was wrong, you just kept calling me stupid. That's Benchleyism. You're a better person than that.

[YOY]

37. "Benchleyism" ...that brings back memories

Sing it Mr. Burch!

[wyldwolf]

39. Every nomination is a wide open race

"the grassroots and the idealists and the the dreamers" would rather be handed things than work for them.

[xultar]

47. I had to match you with the same energy you used. This is DU.

Not an anti-Dem forum. I like all of out Democratic candidates. I still even respect Joe for the things he's done in the past. I don't like what he's doing now. To counter Joe I talk positve about others. I don't talk about Joe. He's not worth my time.

I can't figure out why you'd spend the energy bringing down Hillary instead of building up the great candidates you suggested? I like EVERY possible candidate you mentioned. I think more positive threads about thim can help people who are on the fence.

Why go negative when you can build up Obama, Kucinich, Gore? WHY?

[Ken Burch]

48. It's that so many of our party's leaders have already decided that the contest is over

And that we are OBLIGATED to accept her.

I believe that, if she runs, she will simply be imposed on us, and no questions will be tolerated. This is more a reflection of the attitude of her supporters than of her perhaps. But we don't need a "nominee-in-waiting" and we don't need a primary campaign that ends by March of '08. Neither of those is a good thing.

I believe, simply for the good of electability, internal party democracy and open debate, that the Democratic party needs a 2008 contest without the Senator from New York.

And no, insulting me and calling me "stupid" wasn't matching the energy. Making a case against what I was saying was what it would've taken to do that. I would have been glad to debate with you, to have an open exchange with you, as we are now having. Your posts at the time prevented that and simply inflamed things. I do appreciate the change in your tone now.

[xultar]

50. No they haven't. PuhleeZZZ!!! Why do you think so many want Obama.

Again. You. Don't. Make. Any. Sense. Ken.

[Ken Burch]

51. I hope you're right.

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting in this thread and start some other ones of a different nature.

My real fight is for a change in the party dynamic, so that the party is grass roots rather than top-down. Activists need to have as much of a say as big donors if we are to make any progress and to build the "50 State Strategy".

[xultar]

52. I agree. I'll look forward to your other threads.

[Ken Burch]

56. Check out this one I just started earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3002986&mesg_id=3002986

[wyldwolf]

38. one by one

1. "elitist" is such an overused word. I hear the rightwing apply it to people like you, Burch. Regardless, I sure would love to see a return to the economic policies of the 90s. I think any number of candidates (Clinton, Bayh, Vilsack, Edwards) would provide that.

2. No thanks. If we listen to them, we might get ourselves another McGovern.

3. Why is it that "progressives" always want to change the rules?

4. Nope. Need their money.

5. Is that why they just picked up 16 House Seats?

[cascadiance]

40. Challenge her to publicly support public national campaign financing

If she comes out and adamantly supports it and pushes it, then I might change my tune about her. Until she does though (and I doubt that she will), I still feel her to be a corporate tool that I can't get behind.

[Catherine Vincent]

41. "Hillary groupies"

:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

46. OK, I was obviously a bit angry when I wrote that...

It's the sense of entitlement some of them exude about '08 that brings it out. Sorry.

I started this thread to suggest ways they could counteract bad feelings, and most of them have chosen to completely disregard the substantive suggestions I made.

[Cha]

53. Logical and well thought out..

Good advice for hillary, too..do ya think she'll take it? :P

[Ken Burch]

54. There's always hope...I guess...

n/t.

[Cha]

57. And miralcles

abound.

[proud patriot]

61. I'm locking this thread

It is Flamebait.

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Undeground