Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Best Reasons Not to Impeach, And Why They're Wrong

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 10:41 PM
Original message
The Best Reasons Not to Impeach, And Why They're Wrong
By David Swanson

Political questions are tricky and complicated. Sometimes causes that are just and good must take a backseat to other priorities or long-term strategies. Setting all such perfectly reasonable considerations aside for a moment, I'd like you to ask yourself a simple yes or no question: Do you think President Bush has committed one or more impeachable offenses?

If you said no, I want to talk to you for a second. If you said yes, let's talk in just a minute – but stick around for this first, you'll enjoy it.

"Bush has not committed perjury."

Among those who believe Bush has not committed any impeachable offenses, the most common reason is that he has not lied under oath. But impeachment is a political, not a legal, process – Congress is not obliged to let Bush off on any such technicality. And, in any case, it's a technicality that makes no sense, because perjury is one crime among many. Impeachment is the penalty for treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. The Constitution says nothing about perjury as a ground for impeachment. And it is a crime to mislead or to defraud Congress, whether or not you do so under oath. When Diane Sawyer asked Bush on television why he had made the claims he had about Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction, he replied:

"What's the difference? The possibility that could acquire weapons, if he were to acquire weapons, he would be the danger."

What's the difference? The difference is that had the President merely said that Saddam Hussein could conceivably acquire weapons someday, many people would have opposed his war who supported it. They supported it because Bush said that Saddam had nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and was behind the attacks of 9-11. True, in many instances he avoided making these claims in so many words, and rather implied them. In other cases, he and his subordinates (for whom he is legally responsible), made these claims in the clearest language. In every such case, fraud was committed. Implying and omitting are legally fraud as much as lying is.

But Bush's crimes don't end with fraud or deception. It is illegal to spy in violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, something Bush has confessed to doing. It is illegal to detain without charge and to torture, practices that have been well documented, drafted as official White House policy, lobbied for by the Vice President, and possibly retroactively pardoned by the Military Commissions Act (another technicality that is irrelevant to a case for impeachment and, anyway, may soon be reversed). It is illegal to take funds from other projects to begin a war before it has been authorized. It is illegal to target civilians and hospitals and journalists, and to use white phosphorous and napalm as weapons. It is a fundamental violation of the U.S. Constitution to alter laws with signing statements. Congressman John Conyers has published a report listing numerous other laws violated by Bush.

"Bush is too dumb to know he was lying."

Bush's comment to Diane Sawyer above belies this, as do other statements he's made. But as the previous discussion should suggest, Bush's lying is the least of it. In addition to the crimes mentioned above, Bush has failed to perform his duties as president as required of him by the Constitution. His negligence prior to and after 9-11, prior to and after Katrina, and during the ongoing global warming crisis: these are failures of the highest order. Indeed, these are, in the old British phrase that appears in our Constitution: "high crimes and misdemeanors."

"You can't impeach over policy differences. You must impeach for specific legal violations."

We're seeking to impeach over extreme abuses of power. Bush's specific legal violations are too many to list and can begin, again, with the violations of FISA to which Bush has confessed. But impeachment is not a technical, legal question. Among the grounds for Nixon's impeachment, in an Article of Impeachment approved by the House Judiciary Committee, was his lying to the public. The lying cited was his lying about an ongoing investigation and cover-up of his crimes, not his lying about, for example, secretly bombing Cambodia. But Nixon's lying about his investigation, nonetheless, was an impeachable offense without being a crime. It was a "high crime and misdemeanor," an abuse of power.

"Bush has committed impeachable offenses, but impeachment should not be our priority."

OK, now we're back to those of you who believe that Bush has committed impeachable offenses. Most of you also want to see him impeached, but some of you do not. Among those of you who do not, a common theme is a belief that other people disagree with you and will be turned off just by your proposing impeachment. Well, let me ask you this:

Are you a freak?

Do you believe that other people think completely differently from you?

Do you imagine that significant numbers of actual humans believe the rot that Rush Limbaugh is paid to spew?

Newsweek says that 51 percent of Americans want impeachment to be either a high or low priority, while 44 percent oppose it.

Are you in the "make it a low priority" bunch? If so, you may subscribe to one of the four most common reasons for your position:
1. Dick Cheney would become president
2. Impeachment is divisive and partisan
3. Impeachment will make the Democrats lose in 2008
4. There are more pressing issues. We must pass positive legislation.

Let's look at each of these in order.

"Dick Cheney would become president."

Impeachment and removal from office are two different steps. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Investigating Bush or Cheney will incriminate the other. Both will face future criminal indictments, and both will face removal from office. Cheney runs things now backstage to a great extent, so putting him in charge wouldn't change much, but having him as the most unpopular president in history would be a huge political advantage for the Democrats.

Whoever is president after Bush, whether it's Cheney, another Republican, or Nancy Pelosi, he or she will know that the American people can hold them accountable through impeachment. The next election is the time to pick a president. Impeachment and removal from office are only tools for dealing with officials who abuse power, not for selecting their replacements. Whether we remove Bush and then Cheney or Cheney and then Bush, or they both resign, we are likely to end up with some other Republican as president. That president will, like Gerald Ford, probably lose the 2008 election by a considerable margin. The two-thirds vote required in the Senate to remove someone from office will require at least 16 Republicans voting against Bush and/or Cheney. They will do that, or ask Bush or Cheney to resign so that they don't have to (as happened with Nixon), in order to save their own jobs. The political climate will have swung so far against the Republicans during the impeachment and trial, that the Democrats will experience a 2008 landslide.

However, these electoral concerns should not matter in the face of the importance of this impeachment. If we go into 2009 without having held Bush and Cheney accountable, the next president will be a dictator with absolute power outside the bounds of any laws. And he or she will know that a criminal and unpopular vice president is the best protection against enforcement of the law. That's a disaster in the making, regardless of what party the president comes from.

If, on the other hand, we hold Bush accountable through impeachment, we'll all be much safer, whether his replacement is named Cheney, Pelosi, or anything else.

"Impeachment is divisive and partisan."

Our President belongs to a political party, it's true. But that does not make him any less of a threat to our system of government. Voters just rejected his party overwhelmingly. Not a single new Republican was elected, and enough new Democrats won to achieve a substantial majority in the House and a slim one in the Senate. Voters opposed the party of Bush and Cheney, who are incredibly unpopular. Even some Republicans who spoke against the war lost, primarily because they were Republicans. But Republican Ron Paul of Texas, who has spoken in support of impeaching Bush, won.

If Paul and other Republicans manage to put their country ahead of their party's president, as Republicans did during Nixon's presidency, impeachment will not look so partisan. But if Republicans fail to stand for impeachment, then Democrats must do it alone, and doing so will be partisan in the best sense. It will build the Democratic Party into a powerful force for years to come, and it will be divisive primarily on Capitol Hill and in the world of media pundits.

Around the country it will bring us together. Investigations that expose Bush and Cheney's abuses of power will serve to educate many of those who still support them, including those who believe there really were WMDs, there really was a tie to 9-11, Bush was honestly mistaken but meant well, illegal spying is saving us from terrorists, nobody has been tortured, and a signing statement is just something a deaf person tells you with his hands.

To the extent that restoring the rule of law to this country is divisive, so be it. We have just killed 650,000 Iraqis on the basis of blatant lies, and I'm guessing their families found that process a little divisive. We're killing more of them right now. Before our Constitution was put in place, we fought a war with England. That was quite divisive, I imagine. Surely offending a few uncles and brothers in law who believe things that Fox News tells them is a price we can well afford to pay.

"Impeachment will make the Democrats lose in 2008."

The historical record suggests that this is all wrong. When the Democrats held back from impeachment during Iran Contra, they lost the next elections. And many of the people they failed to go after came back in the form of the Bush Jr. Administration to make life hell for the Democrats and the rest of us. When the Democrats led the effort to investigate and impeach Nixon, they won big in the next election, even though Ford was running as an incumbent. When the Republicans tried to impeach Truman, they got what they wanted out of the Supreme Court and then won the next elections. Articles of Impeachment have been filed against nine presidents, usually by Republicans, and usually with electoral success following. When the Republicans impeached Clinton, impeachment was actually unpopular with the public. Even so, the Republicans lost far fewer seats than is the norm for a majority party at that point in its tenure. Two years later, they lost seats in the Senate, which had acquitted, but maintained their strength in the House, with representatives who had led the impeachment charge winning big. Voters appreciate efforts to push for a cause. Cowardice and restraint are not very popular.

"There are more pressing issues. We must pass positive legislation."

More pressing than restoring the right to not be spied on, to not be picked up without charge and locked away to be tortured with no access to a lawyer, a trial, or your family, to not be sent to war for greed and power? Of course, there are many pressing areas in which we need to pass legislation. But the outgoing Republican Congress passed some important bills, including those banning torture and illegal spying. But Bush used signing statements to announce his intention to disobey those laws.

Under the new Congress Bush may begin vetoing legislation, but more likely – I think – he will continue to use signing statements. In either case, bills will be passed but policy will remain unchanged.

Some important bills, such as one to cut off funding for the war and redirect it to bringing our troops home, caring for them once they get home, reconstructing Iraq, and investing in America – some important bills like this one will not even be passed, because the Democrats do not have the decency to pass them. If, however, they hold hearings exposing the fraud that launched the war, the crimes committed during the war, and the waste of taxpayer money on war profiteers, they may build the political momentum needed to both pass a bill ending the war and remove from office a president who will not end the war even if Congress demands it.

If you believe that Bush can be made to end the war, you still must be aware that there are many committees in Congress, and that they cannot all be occupied fulltime with a task that requires 10 minutes' work: ending the war. If some committees expose the crimes of the war and the crime that is the war, will that help or hurt the cause of ending it? And if we end it, but the man who started it faces no penalty, will that make it more or less likely that a future president will launch a similar war?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. No Perjury... Who Knows.
He and Dick wouldn't even be sworn for their testimony for the 9/11 investigation. In any case, all his lies directly to the people of this nation ought to be enough (and that's not counting the grievous consequences of his "leadership" and including the untold thousands of human beings who've lost thier lives as a consequence).

If this guy isn't considered both impeachable and deserving of impeachment, whatever the guidelines are--they need to be changed! I think they must suggest that this President should be impeached, and we--the whole nation--should call for it. Alas, many Republicans would disagree with me. Go figure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Love for bush to be held accountable but
As you say...which republicans will come on board. Another thing. When you said that one of the things was bush did not lie under oath. But he did...remember...when a president gives the State of the Union address he is swearing to the American people that his statements are true.

Telling the American people that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction when he had proof that he did not. Telling the American people that Saddam was trying to buy nuclear material when he had proof he was not. Both lies. And both given when he was supposed to tell the truth. I would like to know where this is found, so I am going to google and try to find it...I saw it posted somewhere but can't for the life of me remember where.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. why didn't all those Democrats who won run on pro-impeachment platforms?
Its a little disingenuos to suggest that because "voters just rejected party overwhelmingly", that reflects a pro-impeachment sentiment or that the country is not closely divided along partisan lines. First of all, the voters did not just reject the repubs "overwhelmingly." Repubs held onto over 85% of the seats that they had in Congress. The Democrats majority in the Senate is one vote and that one vote, arguably, is represented by Lieberman, who defeated a progressive Democrat. Voters rejected specific candidates in specific races, but extrapolating that to an "overwhelming" rejection of repubs nationwide is unsustainable. More importantly, even if you accept the notion that voters were fed up with repubs, that doesn't necessarily translate into a pro-impeachment sentiment, particularly since the Democrats who were elected almost universally stayed away from impeachment as an issue. If you want to drive away the repubs and indepdendents who took steps toward the Democrats last month, I couldn't think of a better way than to engage in electoral "bait and switch" by ignoring an issue during the campaign and then make it a high priority after the election.

As I have written many times before, Democrats were elected because the public was fed up with the repubs and their lack of oversight of the administration, their corruption, and their absence of new ideas on issues that impact voters daily lives. Investigations, for the sake of investigations, not because they are a step towards impeachment, are within the reasonable parameter of wishes expressed by the voters. THey should be undertaken, as noted, for their own sake. And if they lead where we hope they lead, then the next step will come naturally enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-07-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Forget about impeachment..you are beating a DEAD horse...
Not one, repeat not ONE democratic leader or even any
prominent democrat is calling for impeachment. In fact
they are on record against it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. which is why We, the People, must demand it . . .
I've been against impeachment for practical reasons, but I've recently been thinking a lot about the one argument FOR impeachment that overrides all others, practical or political . . .

and that is the fact that if we don't remove Bush and Cheney -- or at least tie their asses up with investigations and hearings -- there's a very good chance that they will start World War III . . . and soon . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. When the Dems get the gavels on Jan 4th,
investigations will begin. Americans will hear about all the corruption and fraud in this adminsitration and will demand impeachment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. And we should keep our mouth shut about impeachment until
the Bushco crimes are investigated and exposed. But
to talk of impeachment BEFORE that happens is putting
the cart before the horse.

Not only that but from what I read is on the voters mind
is not wasting time on impeachment. So, why build negative
opinions in the public's mind by shouting impeachment before
the crimes are exposed. Once the crimes are exposed, the
public will be primed for impeachment and will actually demand
it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's what I think
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. You missed out number 1: it's impossible; also, some of the rebuttals are mistaken.
I am always puzzled by people discussing "should the democrats impeach Bush" - it's like asking "should the Democrats have Bush struck by lightning". They *can't*; it's mathematically impossible. It would need the cooperation of a great many Republicans, and that simply isn't going to happen. Starting impeachment procedings is to impeaching as praying for lightning strike is to having Bush electrocuted.


Impeachment procedings are like any other criminal prosecution - you shouldn't bring one unles there's a non-trivial chance of success.


"Bush has committed impeachable offenses, but impeachment should not be our priority."

Here you really slip up, I think. The answers to the three questions you pose, "Are you a freak?", "Do you believe that other people think completely differently from you?", and "Do you imagine that significant numbers of actual humans believe the rot that Rush Limbaugh is paid to spew?" are all very clear yesses, both for me and for anyone else on DU except trolls. Of your four reasons you give for not making impeachment (or rather impeachment procedings; impeachment itself isn't an option, as I've pointed out above) a priority, the important ones are 3 and 4.


Impeachment procedings *would* hurt the Democrats massively in 2008. The case against Nixon was *far* more clearcut than the one against Bush, and it was much more clearly a case of crimes as opposed to policy differences. The impeachment of Clinton hurt the Republicans considerably, despite succeeding - they one in 2000 in spite of, not because of, it, and a failed - and clearly doomed - impeachment attempt deadlocking Congress at a critical time would be even more harmful to a party bringing it, especially a party whose main weakness is that it's widely perceived as being negative and more interested in blaming the Republicans than constructive solutions.

And "restoring the right to not be spied on, to not be picked up without charge and locked away to be tortured with no access to a lawyer, a trial, or your family, to not be sent to war for greed and power?" are *alternatives* to impeachment - either the Democrats can devote political capital to those, and other constructive goals, or they can devote it to trying to impeach Bush. Trying to impeach him (or even successfully impeaching him) won't undo one ounce of the harm he's done, and it will make doing so far harder.


Impeachment procedings would do no good whatsoever to anyone except Republicans running for office in 2008, and would do a great deal of harm to the Democrats and to America.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. "Prosecutorial discretion" on the part of Congressional Democrats
is the order of the day. And it's the right move.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. The least impeach supporters could do is not mangle easily proved facts
"Impeachment will make the Democrats lose in 2008."

"The historical record suggests that this is all wrong."

The historical record does no such thing one way or the other.

"When the Democrats held back from impeachment during Iran Contra, they lost the next elections."

They lost a Presidential election. They gained 2 seats in the House and a seat in the Senate. So this is just incorrect.

"And many of the people they failed to go after came back in the form of the Bush Jr. Administration to make life hell for the Democrats and the rest of us."

True though I am unsure how impeachment hearings against Reagan would have done anything to stop that.

"When the Democrats led the effort to investigate and impeach Nixon, they won big in the next election, even though Ford was running as an incumbent. "

Another dubious fact. The Dems stood pat in the Senate, Carter won by a slim margin (2%) and they gained one seat in the House.

"When the Republicans tried to impeach Truman, they got what they wanted out of the Supreme Court and then won the next elections."

Again Eisenhower won. Eisenhower, hero of WW2. To say the shift in 50 and 52 came from impeachment is dubious at best. The impeachment actions came in 52. The Dems lost 22 seats. The Dems also lost 22 seats in 50 when no impeachment articles were mentioned.

"Articles of Impeachment have been filed against nine presidents, usually by Republicans, and usually with electoral success following."

Cite them. You've already made simple mistakes. I want to see where clear gains were made by an opposition party after filing articles of impeachment with the articles at least having a hand in said power shift.

Here's another example. 1868 after Johnson was actually impeached by Republicans, Democrats saw a 22 seats gain in the House(the Senate was not yet popularly elected)


"When the Republicans impeached Clinton, impeachment was actually unpopular with the public. Even so, the Republicans lost far fewer seats than is the norm for a majority party at that point in its tenure. Two years later, they lost seats in the Senate, which had acquitted, but maintained their strength in the House, with representatives who had led the impeachment charge winning big. Voters appreciate efforts to push for a cause."

This is nonsense "Because of gains made in the House of Representatives(by Democrats), it was the first time since 1934 that the out of Presidency party failed to gain congressional seats in a mid-term election, and the first time since 1822 that the party not in control of the White House had failed to gain seats in the mid-term election of a President's second term."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_1998

How could you get so many easily verified facts wrong? Or what I really suspect is how could you so misrepresent the historical record?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC