Dean supporters: explain how Dean is different from Kerry on gay rights

[ButterflyBlood]

please.

Kerry supports anti-discrimination laws. So does Dean.
Kerry supports civil unions. So does Dean.
Kerry opposes gay marriage. So does Dean.
However Kerry believes that it should be a state issue and the federal government shouldn't tell states to prohibit it. This translates into opposing the FMA. Dean's stance isn't different.

I have no doubt a Gov. Kerry would've signed the civil unions bill. Would a Sen. Dean oppose DOMA? Possibly, but there's no way to know for sure. Will either support the FMA? I'd say there's a better chance of us finding real, nonplanted WMDs in Iraq than of that.

[NashVegas]

1. Dean Stood Up and Took the Heat

For a bill that was unpopular in his state. And then he fought like a dog to *help those who were vehemently against it* accept it (after all, his ass was on the line). Never once said, "quit crying in your tea cups."

Dean has also stated that if elected, he would work to push states toward adopting civil unions/gay marriage laws in their own fashion.

Does that help?

[Dookus]

2. Dean also had the opportunity

to grant marriage rights, but didn't. He chose civil unions.

[NashVegas]

4. Correct

He chose the one he thought he'd have the best chance of getting through. But, unlike Kerry, he hasn't tried to have it both ways by hinting that he'd consider signing onto an amendment that bans gay marriage.

[ButterflyBlood]

he didn't have a choice

the court said he had to pass civil unions or gay marriage. if gay marriage couldn't get through the legislature, the court could force it anyway.

I just find it silly supporters of both candidates are taking pot shots at each other over this when they have THE EXACT SAME POSITION.

[NashVegas]

9. True - to a Point

The main difference is that one of them has already walked through the fire - and lived to see re-election. And can most likely be trusted to walk through fire again.

[ButterflyBlood]

11. both of them have

Kerry voted against DOMA. He was the only senator up for reelection that year to do so. And his seat was in danger, Weld was far ahead of him in early polls.

[NashVegas]

13. I Beg Your Pardon

I didn't come into this thread to get into an all-out debate. If you'd had a Kerry tag instead of a Clark, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Cheers.

[Sean Reynolds]

12. He did have a choice.

Dean could have pushed the matter toward the Supreme Court, keeping the issue bogged down for possibly years. You do realize that Dean campaigned for it during the time the Vermont Supreme Court was making its ruling? He wasn't forced into anything - being forced to do something means that you are against it at the first place.

The Vermont Courts ruled, Dean could have countered the act and kept the issue dead until well after the election. He chose to act, even when only 30% of the state agreed with it.

Dean also isn't against gay marriage; Kerry is. That is the big difference.

[arcos]

36. he couldn't pass anything...

he was just able to sign it or veto it, since "passing" things is for the legislature.

[WyLoochka]

41. It IS the same position

And it is not wrong at all - although neither Dean nor Kerry has adequately explained why.

"Marriage" is within the purview of religion, to sanctify or not sanctify a civil union, as the various sects of the churches see fit. As such, the government has nothing to say about it. Separation of church and state - remember?

Conversely, civil unions are within the purview of the federal government which is obligated, constitutionally, to secure the equal rights of every citizen, thwarting the attempts of "the church" to deny equal rights to some citizens when necessary.

Further, it is not up to the states to decide this matter, resulting in some states securing the full range of civil rights for their citizens and others being allowed to continue to deny some of their citizens the free and full exercise of their rights.

It IS the constitutional right of gays and lesbians to enter into civil unions. We need no new laws to tell us this - sufficient law is already on the books and has been for over 200 years. We just need existing law to be enforced.

Obviously, gays and lesbians have been denied the exercise of their civil rights. Over time state by state, court case by court case their full rights will at long last be secured. It's slow going, yes but that is how our system works. As Thomas Jefferson explained - democracy and the full extension of our inalienable rights ramifies through institutions over time.

This is why the fundies are desperate to change the Constitution with an amendment and to stack the federal benches with a bunch of theocrats who disregard the Constitution and refer to their own sectarian doctrines instead when deciding matters where the "church" and state are at odds.

The right to enter into civil unions nationwide is inevitable because it is constitutional and denying that right is unconstitutional.

The fundies don't have a chance in Hell of getting an amendment passed that would abridge this right to civil unions, there just aren't enough of them outside the Bible Belt states to get it passed.

If it is important to a gay couple to have their union sanctified as a "marriage," that is something they need to take up with their church.

[ButterflyBlood]

3. and how's that different from Kerry?

Kerry said he supports civil unions and would have no problem with implementing them in other states. He also took a lot of heat voting against DOMA. in fact he was the only senator up for reelection that year to vote against it. And he was no shoo-in (see the thread about how far behind Weld he was)

I do have my issues with Kerry, but attacking him on this issue is just a lame cheap shot as dumb as blasting Dean for having no minorities in his cabinet.

[NashVegas]

6. Dean Supporters Were Asked

to explain the difference. I'm trying to do that. I imagine voting against DOMA must have put Kerry's seat at risk, especially in a state like Massachusetts where there is no gay population to speak of. ..

[politick]

17. well there is a gay population to speak of

in MA. And Kerry was far behind Weld at a few points, but having been there and reported on that election at the time, I can tell you that there was never really any doubt that he would be reelected.

Kerry does vote liberally, but he is in a sort of vacuum. There are few issues he could really vote on that the people in MA would get up in arms about.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. BB didnt ask for another compilation of DU stockphrases.

He wanted to know the difference between Kerry and Dean's positions on GBLT issues.


Answer: None. Nada. Zilch. Rien.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. In fairness to Dean

The civil unions bill in VT was one he even took death threats over. A friend read in an article ( I didn't see the article) that he even had to wear a bullet proof vest during that time frame. I trust this friend's info to be correct.

I don't think there's a difference between the two on their stands and things that can pass in a small state are not tranferrable to the national scene.

Kerry's legislation and votes (all of which have been favorable to GLBT's) have been on a national (federal) level.

[ButterflyBlood]

8. I'm not blasting Dean

I'm just pointing out Dean and Kerry have pretty much identical positions on this issue. So when choosing between them, it shouldn't even come into play. This is as dumb as arguing over whether or not Kerry or Dean is more pro-choice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. I agree.

Sorry..I didn't mean for my response to you to imply that I thought you were blasting Dean...

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. Both are opposed to equal protection under the law

Both favor a second class legal status for some Americans.

[Dookus]

14. interesting...

their statements say exactly the opposite.

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. Could you repost the link where either of them have indicated they

support equal marriage rights for all couples, regardless of gender?

I have googles without success, and all I can find are both of them endorsing the idea of the second-class style "civil union."

[Dookus]

16. sneaky...

change the question.

They support equal rights. YOU are now making the claim that only "equal marriage rights" counts.

However, the statement I responded said they don't support equal protection under the law. I believe it would be very easy to find quotes from both of them supporting just that. You could even scroll up in this thread and find evidence.

[DuctapeFatwa]

18. The remarks I heard were in connection with same sex marriages

but the basic principle is one of equal protection under the law, and could easily be applied to any number of groups and rights.

Do you think either or both is not a man of principle?

[Dookus]

20. the fact remains...

you made a statement, I challenged it, then you changed the statement to something else. An unsavory debating tactic.

Kerry, Clark and Dean have no real difference in their positions on this issue. They all support equal protection under the law for gay couples.

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. Do you mean they are all just anti-gay?

They oppose equal rights for all Americans, as I said.

They all favor a separate legal status for some Americans, regarding one issue that we know of.

Are you suggesting that any of them are not men of principle and are simply anti-gay?

[Dookus]

25. saying it repeatedly doesn't make it so

if they come out and say they support equal rights for all americans, then I think that ought to be the supposition we use.

And no, I don't think they're anti-gay. I wouldn't support any of them if I thought they were.

I'm gay. In a relationship. My boyfriend and I are directly impacted by decisions made on this issue. I'm content that Kerry, Clark and Dean ALL support equal rights for my partner and me.

Do I care if it's called marriage? Not one whit. I'm an atheist, and I consider "marriage" to be a religious term, which has no impact on me. As long as my partner and I get the same rights as other couples, I don't care if you call it Flingflangdooblypoop. I want the rights, not the name.

[DuctapeFatwa]

29. LOL you can't have it both ways. Either they are men of principle , and

one of their principles is that certain groups should have a separate legal status, or they believe that only one group in one situation should have this second class status, because of their feelings toward that particular group.

Which is it?

[Dookus]

31. it's neither...

I'll repeat: Dean, Kerry and Clark all support equal rights for gay couples. There are no rights being reserved for a special group of people. There is no second-class status.


EQUAL.... RIGHTS


Read those two words again and again and again.

[DuctapeFatwa]

34. Separate but equal? That certainly has precedent. What other groups

do they feel should have separate but equal legal status, and in what context?

[joshcryer]

39. Um, Kerry is for "seperate but equal."

Dean is for whatever one can get. He did not disagree with the Mass. decision. Fact.

[politick]

19. I think ductapefatwa is referring to

The MA SJC ruling that granting civil union status isn't enough, because it still sets up a dynamic whereby a certian segment of the population is given second class status. That setting aside a SEPARATE but EQUAL (air quotes) status for gays, there is in inherant inequality. (See Brown v. the Topeka Board of Education for reference)

And if ductape isn't saying this, then they are still right on with the recent decision, and there's one state's supreme court on the same side.

[DuctapeFatwa]

21. LOL with all respect to Massachussets, I was saying it waaay before them

They are just a bunch of copycats

:evilgrin:

[Dookus]

22. well...

the problem with "separate but equal" in education is that while separate, the systems were far from equal.

However, the marriage laws aren't implementing huge systems such as schools. They're providing the same legal rights to everyone. I don't see how they can really be unequal if the law states that they're equal.

[ButterflyBlood]

24. furtheremore

there's no reason why marriage is neccesarily supperior to civil unions. I'm sure many non-religious folks would rather have a civil union.

[DuctapeFatwa]

27. What other groups should have separate legal status?

What other rights should be reserved for certain groups?

[Dookus]

30. I don't know how many different ways there are to say it....

Dean Clark and Kerry ALL support equal rights for gay couples. There are no rights being reserved for certain groups.

[DuctapeFatwa]

32. So all 3 support marriage for all couples, regardless of gender?

Could you repost that link one more time. Maybe it is my browser, but it is just not showing up for me, and I have googled without success.

All I can find are multiple instances of each of them expressing support for a separate status for same sex couples.

[Dookus]

33. OK...

you keep changing the question after I answer. I find that such a dishonorable way to have a discussion that you can carry on with your own bad self.

Ciao

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. Your post contains an inaccuracy..

I have changed no question.

the question is, should all Americans have equal protection under the law, or should there be a tiered system with certain groups having a separate status.

The question is a very simple one of principle, and the candidates seem to be comfortable with their positions on it, they have all been very candid.

I have no reason to doubt that they are all men of principle.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. The fact is that Kerry supports equal protection of everyone under the law

That is his position, that is the way he has voted, that has been consistent for years and years and years.

Your attempt to characterize his position as just the opposite is unpersuasive as it is contrary to the facts and unsupported by evidence.

[DuctapeFatwa]

38. Could you repost the link where he indicates support for full marriage?

I have honestly tried to find it and keep finding the opposite.

[politick]

26. but...

is there not a second-tier there, if you can say one group can get married (and, incidentally, divorced 50% of the time) and another grou pcannot enjoy that status, but they both ejoy equal rights? Isn't there an explicit dispariy of status? And if there really is no difference, why not let them get "married", or just do away with marriage altogether?

(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate, here, because it should be an issue of state/church. But there is something fishy, divisive, and prejudiced about saying one group can, one group can't but they both can't call it the same thing. It's dirty, and, in a wat, WORSE to say they're separate but equal.)

[joshcryer]

40. Kerry is anti-gay-marriage, while Dean is not?

Dean got civil unions passed, because that was the compromise which he could make. Dean makes no illusions about civil unions being 'better' or 'necessary' opposed to gay marriage, it's a take what you can get scenario.

Dean's statements on this are quite clear. Kerry's reaction to the Mass. gay marriage thing are a good contrast to Dean's reaction. Kerry said he was against it, and Dean made it clear that this is a scenario where this inherent right is desirable, regardless of its form.

[tobius]

42. Oh good

after reading all the posts here, I can say that my confidence is very strong Kerry will not confuse the hell out of all the voters with his position. {sarcasm=on}
Hey, what do I know it might work!
"A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation."
                              -H. H. Munro

[Brian_Expat]

43. John Kerry is considering supporting the anti-gay amendment in Mass.

http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?oldflok=FF-APO-1131&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040210%2F0359196340.htm&sc=1131&floc=NW_5-L1

Asked if he would support a state constitutional amendment barring gay and lesbian marriages, Kerry didn't rule out the possibility. "I'll have to see what language there is," he said.

Every other candidate, even Lieberman, denounced such a law.

[OneBlueSky]

44. or, he's trying to ice the issue until after the election . . .

by saying he'd consider it . . . hmmm . . .

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. Howard Dean said if a state passed gay marriage he would recognize it

And he would NEVER sign a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. He won't force states to pass it, but he will respect and recognize the rights of individual states to legalize gay marriage if they manage to get it passed. And YES, that is a HUGE difference from Kerry's refusal to take a firm stand in support of gay rights.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

49. That is a strong position? How many states would pass that law?

Two points:

1) " but he will respect and recognize the rights of individual states to legalize gay marriage if they manage to get it passed"

In reality how many states would pass such a law on their own? 1 maybe 2. Ohio is already trying to pass a ban as we speak, it is supposedly waiting for Taft to sign it. Since Dean likes states rights on this issue, will Dean let the BAN stand? (oh and that means if a gay couple was legally married in a state with gay marriage law and then moved to Ohio they would lose their marriage rights in Ohio, according to the current Ohio legislation)

"And he would NEVER sign a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage."
2) Which Democrat would actually say they would? That stance is no different that any other Dem in the race.

TWL

[Mass_Liberal]

46. Dean actually put his life on the line to sign civil unions.

Before the IWR vote, I would have said Kerry would vote against it. But he didn't.

[HFishbine]

47. From Lesbian Life: Side-by-side comparison

Background

DEAN: As Governor, Howard Dean signed Vermont's landmark civil union legislation. The law grants gay and lesbian couples the same basic legal rights as married couples.

KERRY: John Kerry has been a Senator from Massachuttes since 1984.

Employment Non-Discrimination:

DEAN: Howard Dean promises to fight for the enactment of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA).

KERRY: Kerry supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act 2003. He co-sponsored ENDA in 1996.

Gender Identity Employment:

DEAN: Dean supports passage of a federal bill to outlaw discrimination in the workplace based on gender identity and expression.

KERRY: Kerry has not made it clear if he will support a bill to end workplace discrimination based on gender identity and expression.

Hate Crimes:

DEAN: Dean supports the inclusion of sexual orientation and gender identity in Federal Hate Crimes Law. Currently laws do not include gender identity or sexual orientation, but do include race, religion and national origin.

KERRY: Kerry supports the inclusion of sexual orientation and gender identity in Federal Hate Crimes Law. Current law does not include either, but does include race, religion and national origin.

Same-Sex Marriage:

DEAN: Dean opposes same-sex marriage, but thinks the federal government should recognize legal unions created by states and other countries.

KERRY: Kerry initially said he does not support same-sex marriage, but supports civil unions. In the candidates' debate on November 24, when asked about the Massachusetts ruling he said, “I would urge the Legislature to do precisely what the Constitution requires. It is a matter of equal protection under the law.” (Fishbine note: Last week, when asked if he'd support a state constitutional amendment barring gay and lesbian marriages, Kerry didn't rule out the possibility. "I'll have to see what language there is," he said.)


Family Medical Leave:

DEAN: Dean supports extending the Family Medical Leave Act to domestic partners and their children.

KERRY: Kerry supports extending the Family Medical Leave Act to same-sex couples.

Same-Sex Immigration:

DEAN: Dean supports the Permanent Partners Immigration Act (H.R. 832) which would allow American citizens to sponsor their same-sex partner for immigration into this country.

KERRY: Kerry supports the Permanent Partners Immigration Act (H.R. 832) which would allow American citizens to sponsor their same-sex partners for immigration into the country.

Gay and Lesbian Adoption:

DEAN: Dean supports same-sex adoption.

KERRY: Kerry supports gays and lesbians having the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell:

DEAN: Dean supports the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" which would allow gay, lesbian and bisexual soldiers to serve openly in the military

KERRY: Kerry supports the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, which would allow gay and lesbian soldiers to serve openly in the military.

Source: Lesbian Life

[dsc]

48. There is a huge one in tone

and tone matters. Dean touts his record everywhere. Every single piece of literature I have handed out for Dean, and I don't live in a very gay friendly place, touts his record on gay rights. Kerry, on the other hand, rarely speaks on his record and his literature puts us at the end of a lundry list of people.

That is a huge difference. Dean went to Iowa and told crowds filled with many elderly farmers that he stood for my rights and it was the right thing to do. And those audiences cheered. That is leadership on gay issues. That is being a true friend. Kerry didn't do that.

I am realistic. I don't expect any of our candidates to beable to pass a federal civil unions bill. But I do expect, the right one, to get us ENDA and hate crimes. I can see Dean fighting to the mat for those. I can't see Kerry doing so. That is the difference between us getting another Clinton, who said the right things but did nothing, and a gay version of Johnson. I want my Johnson. Dean is my Johnson, Kerry isn't.

Also you make the charge that we don't know what Dean's vote on DOMA would have been, but we actually do. He publicly threatened to veto a Vermont DOMA which is why there isn't one.

Finally for a good interview about the civil unions issue (warning long) try this.

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=02/05/2004

You are looking for David Moats' interview. Dean's role is well covered in minutes 13 through 18. Including his telling a Senate leadership which wanted him to appoint a commission that "we had to do the right thing."

Tone matters, and Dean has it all over Kerry in tone.

[dsc]

50. kick