I Love Dennis?

[mr715]

Yeah yeah, you might know me as not a big fan of Congressman Kucinich. I'm not going to argue insane policy issues that gets everyone up in arms; I have a more interesting question.

Why oh why do the Kucinich supporters always call him just "Dennis"? It skeeves me. Are we on a first name basis with the gentleman from Cleveland?

And PS I know why we say "Hillary". Its cause we wanna distinguish here from her Republican husband.



M

[Ken Burch]

1. I suppose it's because the man encourages in his supporters that kind of a comfort level.

That's my answer. It's no different from 1968, when millions of Democrats called their preferred primary candidate "Bobby" or "Gene".

My question to you is...why does it BOTHER you what people call Congressman Kucinich if you, as you stated in your thread intro, aren't planning to vote for him in the primaries?

(BTW, you do realize that, after the bad joke, er, "John" no longer has a chance at the nomination, don't you?)

For myself, I don't care what anybody calls the man from Cleveland as long as they vote for him. It still goes without saying that he's the only candidate with principes and a conscience in the race.

[mr715]

2. Bobby and Gene

Well I think we call 'em Bobby cause he's Bobby KENNEDY and Gene MCCARTHY.

I mean its the same stuff as why we call her Hillary CLINTON.

Senator Kerry had his chance and I doubt he will get another. I will support the Democrat whose positions I most agree with, likely a Kerry, Clinton, or Edwards. Perhaps a Biden. Nonetheless, the "Dennis" thing gives me a cult vibe.

Follow Moonbeam, for we are His children. Moonbeam has the vision to lead us to the stars. Now lets cut off our testicles and drink the potion of transcendence.

[Ken Burch]

4. The Kucinich campaign is nothing like a cult.

Basically what we are doing is showing loyalty to man who spoke truth to power when nobody else would, to someone who took the risk of defeat and of looking foolish in order to make sure that the issues were heard in 2004.

I'll support whoever gets nominated, because I suppose power in name is better than nothing.
But I won't apologize for defending someone who has the courage of his convictions.

If the Kucinich campaign is a cult because people call him by his first name, you'd have to say the same of the Kennedy and McCarthy campaigns. There's no reason to find a creepy resonance in this if you didn't see one in the others.

You sound like the sort who thinks progressives should just do what the hacks and the Beltway tell them to do.

[AJH032]

3. so it's okay to call Sen. Clinton "Hillary" but not Kucinich "Dennis"?

...seems hypocritical, even if there is a reason behind Hillary's name (although NOT to distinguish her from any Republican).

Also, why is a politician's name more interesting to you than the issues of policy they influence? That's odd.

[mr715]

5. Well I was joking about not bein interested in policy

I think Dennis is full of it. I dont trust a word out of his mouth, and his speeches resonate with me like a cult leader talking to the faithful. I think we ought to remember hes a politician.

And we call Hillary, Hillary because she is Hillary Clinton. We could just as easily say "Senator Clinton", which is more appropriate.

The constant calling Congressman Kucinich "Dennis" is just creepy.

[Ken Burch]

7. I can understand you thinking Dennis is radical, but UNTRUSTWORTHY?

When has the man EVER lied?

And you still haven't explained why it's creepy to say "Dennis" but it wasn't to say "Bobby" or "Gene".

Or do you think THEIR campaigns were "cults" too.

Sounds like you just hate anybody who doesn't see politics as merely a contest between elites for power in name, principle be damned. Which is the way the candidate YOU said you preferred play it. Such as Joe Biden, who would spend his entire term carrying out policies that would prevent anyone from noticing that he was leading a Democratic administration.

[mr715]

9. Sure I did

Bobby Kennedy was Bobby because he was KENNEDY. Eugene McCarthy was Gene because he was MCCARTHY.



Abortion. The Orwellian Department of Peace. The Complete Evisceration of our Troops. His Mismanagement of Cleveland. His Showboating in 2004. His Joseph Goebbles-esque speech at the 2004 convention.

I support politics of position.

Joe Biden shares many of my positions. I dont care if he eats meat, believes in crystal energy, or is a gadfly. He is potentially my man because he would support what I stand for. A moderating voice in the Democratic party.

[Ken Burch]

14. OK, I'll ask you about the issues you mentioned...

1)Abortion. Are you mad because Kunicich used to be anti-choice or because he is now pro-choice?
Kucinich just can't win with people on that one.
2)The Department of Peace is "Orwellian"? You can't accept that Kucinich might support such a thing(which, btw, Kucinich did not originate)simply because he might actually think it would help advance the cause of peace? What harm does it do to have a branch of the government working as hard to stop war as the Pentagon and the State Department work to cause it?

3)"The Complete Evisceration of our Troops"? Excuse me, but this administration is causing the evisceration, amputation, castration, decapitation and expiration of thousands of our troops in what everyone, including yourself, now knows is a pointless fight in Iraq. Kucinich isn't eviscerating anybody.
He wants the troops home, and home alive and in one piece. Why on earth should that offend you.
And even if all of Kucinich's proposed cuts in the death budget went through, we'd still have a massively obscene war machine that could slaughter everyone on the planet many times over. Even YOU should feel secure with that. Besides, no good has come of the massive U.S. war buildup since 1980 and there's no reason for Democrats to defend it. Nothing the Pentagon did with a single penny of taxpayer money stopped 9/11, for example.

4)Dennis saved the people of Cleveland hundreds of millions of dollars by not allowing the electric utility to be privatized. If THAT's mismanagement, we need more of it. Any other problems in municipal government during Kucinich's tenure were largely caused by corporate power retailiating for his success in stopping them from fleecing the city's ratepayers.

5)SHOWBOATING in 2004? The guy was running for president. The party leaders had already decided to lose by forcing the party to nominate John Kerry. What alternative did Dennis have besides trying whatever methods he could use to get attention?

6)The Goebbels thing is beneath even your dignity. There was nothing Kucinich did or said in that speech that was remotely similar to a call for Naziism. You should do the decent thing and retract it.

And I'm a meateater who doesn't believe in crystal power too. You can't pigeonhole every Kucinich supporter into your smug little cultural stereotype.

What messages do we send if we reject Kucinich?

We send these messages:

1)Principle is nothing.
2)Those who speak up against injustice and an insane war have no place in the Democratic party.
3)The poor and the workers don't matter in this party-only smug cynical life-hating white suburbanites like yourself.
4)The party should be controlled by no one but big donors and Beltway hacks
5)The party should mock anyone who wants peace and should eternally lower itself to the pro-slaughter worldview of Scoop Jackson.
6)The party should be just as much a party of exclusion as the GOP.

Do you really WANT a party like that? Especially since a party like that couldn't be electable and couldn't be WORTH electing if it was?

Anyway, I've proven there's nothing cultish about calling my candidate by his first name, so I'll try to sign off now.

If you're the sort of person who supports a candidate that cares more about the profits of the credit card industry than he does about the economic well-being of working Americans who are victimized by the credit card industry(as you would be as a Biden supporter)you aren't really that much of a Democrat anyway. Or you're the support that is only loyal to the Democratic Party if it only listens to people who right big checks and agree with you on the need for the country to have TWO conservative militarist parties.

[mr715]

17. Fire away

The abortion thing is a bit too close to the election, ay? A little morning change to get more votes.

There is no place in government for a department of peace. Peace is a condition, not an activity to be regulated. The activities under a department of peace would be and should be handled under the state department, the department of justice, and perhaps the department of labor.

Evisceration of our troops? Yeah, cutting funding is evisceration. Nothing makes our soldiers happier than not getting pay checks. Bring em home - but dont punish the people dying for a mistake.

Dennis was roundly rejected as mayor of Cleveland and was embroiled in scandal. He lost reelection and was almost recalled.

Showboating - yahuh. He's going to have a brokered convention with his NOT ONE SINGLE WIN in the primaries? I saw posts on this board about how awesome it was he came in 2nd in Hawai'i. Its still not a win. He was never going to win. He never pulled above 2% nationally. The party didnt give us Senator Kerry - the people did (perhaps the people of Iowa and NH)

Goebbels - watch his speech, his incoherent language, his gesticulation and pathos. In delivery if not, content, sir. I apologize if you felt I was saying his content was nazi-esque. It wasnt. His delivery, however, was.

The messages we send if we reject Kucinich is the same message we send if we reject Kerry, Clinton, Biden, Clark, Dean, Edwards, Obama, Bayd, Lieberman, or Zell Miller

"That guy aint for us because he believes in XYZ and we dont"

White suburbanites? SIr - I live in New York City in Washington Heights.

[Ken Burch]

20. OK, well you sound like a suburbanite DLC hack type.

And Kucinich changed his position on abortion over FIVE YEARS AGO. Does he EVER get allowed to get past that? Christ, it never justified supporting less-progressive candidates against him.

And on defense, Kucinich wants to cut funds for additional weapons systems, not pay for the troops. It's Bush and Cheney who are underpaying the troops.

And the fact that you found Kucinich's speech incoherent(I didn't actually see the speech, but as I understand it all speeches at the convention had to be cleared by the Kerry campaign, so they probably made sure it was as meaningless as possible)still doesn't justify comparing it to a Nazi propaganda speech in any form. Whatever else he was and is, Dennis Kucinich is pro-democracy and anti-fascist.

In any case, it goes without saying that Kucinich bore no responsibility whatsoever for Kerry's defeat. Kerry lost because he didn't fight back against smear campaigns(which was due to the fact that the man was stupid enough to have people from THE DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN on his fall election staff)and because he sounded lifeless and, yes, incoherent on the stump. Kucinich's decision to stay in the race til the convention did no harm to the party at all. And it would have been better to have an open nominating vote and real debate on the platform and candidate at the convention. It served no purpose to make Boston a "politics-free zone" and reduce the whole week to "Vote Kerry-He's Done Some Stuff". I hope you'll agree that we should never have a convention like that again.

Finally, you could make your points without being quite so insulting towards people whose only crime is disagreeing with you that they should just shut up and give on fighting for their principles.
And you could stop refusing to back off on small points-like the silly way you wouldn't let up on the "why do they call him Dennis" thing when I proved there was nothing wrong with it.
The tone you give off is "I'm above actually debating-everyone else on the board is just peasant scum and I'm going to empty my chamber pot on their heads".

[mr715]

22. Sir, fight for your principles

Do not surmise that they are the same as mine. I thought Kerry was a formidable candidate, I thought the convention was a staged but no more than any other. I thought Kerry took the high road and in the end, it failed but his intentions were good.

Kerry has a history to back him up. He hasnt done "stuff". Hes been a leader and a powerful one besides - not someone who spouts meaningless sound bytes and peace symbols. Kerry is the warrior for peace, and I will stand by that.

He changed his position in 2003, as far as I can tell. Correct me if I am mistaken.

I dont mean to insult anyone. I did not call you "white, suburbanite scum" or whatever it was. BUT I am admitting that everyone calling Kucinich "Dennis" skeeves me out. It does. It really does.



Matt

[Clark2008]

29. I don't know. People around here still think Wesley Clark

is a Republican because, while never, ever being registered with the party, voted for Reagan back when I was a teenager (and I'm closing in on 40 now, if that tells you the time span) and when most of the military was doing such because they thought Reagan would improve their quality of equipment and gear.

[Ken Burch]

39. I'm not one of those people. Clark's ok by me if he's nominated.

And you know what my dream campaign would be?

It would be Wes Clark(or John Edwards) running on Dennis' platform. I think that combination would be damn near unstoppable.

[MadHound]

27. Now reverse that last statement

Kucinich shares many of my positions. I don't care if he's a vegetarian, believes in crystal energy, or is a gadfly. He is my man because he supports what I stand for. A fine progressive voice in the Democratic party, speaking truth to power. :shrug:

I don't see him as the leader of a cult, or particularly out there. He is a well spoken, articulate, intelligent man whose proposals for solving this country's problems are just a bit ahead of their time.

I don't know where you are getting your information, nor why you are doing a baseless rip on the man. Your characterizations of his positions, history and personality are not grounded in reality, but rather reflect your own bias. Can you say projection?

The man has, unlike other Washington politicians, remained true to is principles, true to his word, and a man whose positions and solutions remain consistently ahead of the rest of the pack. In 2002, he was one of the few who were against the IWR, accurately predicting what it would lead to. In '04 he was saying that we have to leave Iraq ASAP, while the rest of the Democrats were trying to pussyfoot their way around their support for the war. And long before anybody else, he has had a viable plan for getting us the hell out.

What is Orwellian about a Dept. of Peace, judging from our history, we could use one. And it isn't the complete "eviseration" of our troops, it is a cutback in our funding of the troops, one that I think that we can afford. After all, we spend more money on our military budget than the next twenty eight countries combined. How did he mismanage Clevland, and if he did, why has he been repeatedly lauded for saving Clevlands ass concerning public utilities and such? And now, somehow, running for office is showboating? Gee, what was Kerry doing then? And frankly friend, you lose all your arguements for bringing up dead Nazis to smear a man's speech.

You don't like Kucinich, that's fine, that's your right. But base your dislike on facts, not smears and innuendo. Secondly, if he gets the Democratic nomination, will you vote for him, or will you be like those other centerist Dems back in 1972, sitting on their hands pouting because good ol' Ibogaine Musky was shunned in favor of a peace candidate by the name of McGovern?

[OzarkDem]

32. Sounds like you don't know much about him

You're trying to pass off your opinions of Kucinich as fact.

[dionysus]

40. dude, you're a tool

seriously

[cyclezealot]

25. You have not experienced DK.

I say you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You probably listen to too much MSNBC. He is not Governor Moonbeam, he is more a blend of Bobby Kennedy and Adlai Stevenson. Some get intimidated by someone who is too intelligent for their liking.

[Ken Burch]

6. Basically, from what I can see, Mr "715" doesn't think Kucinich has any right to be in the race

And that progressives and activists don't have any right to have a real say in the nominating process.

It's a pretty DLC attitude for a guy who refers to Bill Clinton as Hillary's "Republican husband".

Bitter and weird in equal measure.

[mr715]

8. Three parts in that measure

Bitter and weird, maybe. But it was also sarcastic. President Clinton was the greatest Democratic leader in generations.

Progressives and activists have every right to have a real say - if its rational, and not a cult of personality.

Paul Wellstone spoke "truth to power". Kucinich is no Paul Wellstone.

The DLC died, I think. I'm a Democrat - but one that thinks about his candidates. I've heard Mr. Kucinich speak, and he isnt that impressive to me. But I still think its creepy to call a candidate "Dennis"



M
PS = The mr715 isnt Mister. Its my initials

[Ken Burch]

10. Even if his first name is Dennis?

I mean, if you don't want to support the guy that's your call. Whatever. :eyes:

But you are truly making a huge and pointless deal over the "name issue".

As to Wellstone, yes of course he spoke truth to power. But he didn't live to run for president.

And don't presume to say that YOU think about your candidates and Kucinich supporters don't.

Most of us support Dennis Kucinich because we've come to the conclusion that he best represents our ideas, our values and our dreams. We DON'T see him as an earthly Messiah for freak's sake.

If nothing else the party is clearly better having a strongly progressive candidate for the nomination. If all our candidates were bland corporate centrists like the ones you said you support, would there be any point in even TRYING to win the White House?

[cyclezealot]

26. President Clinton is a likeable enough person.

I voted for him and would again if I had to. But, Nafta is the cause of our present economic downfall. Clinton trinagulated on issues like the FCC and trade. Of course we vote for the lesser evil , but that does not mean it was the best choice for the country.
Kucinich know what is best for the country and nothing else will do. Health care with Insurance companies in control will continue to bankrupt our medical system. Kucinich does not get the nomination , we will go with the flow; but that does not mean we have to over tax ourselves. I suspect DLC types just demand winners, not winning for what is in the best interests of the country.

[tkmorris]

11. Your underwear are too tight

I'd look into that if I were you.

[mr715]

13. Breezy Boxers

Some people take tongue-in-cheek original posts too seriously

[Ken Burch]

15. Give me a break. Your subsuquent posts have shown what you meant.

You're the sort of centrist Beltway hack who treats anyone to your left with withering contempt, then insists that the same people you've just dissed are obligated to support the party on YOUR terms because "the Republicans are worse", but never returns the loyalty when a progressive is nominated.

BTW, the DLC is, unfortunately, alive and well. You've probably heard them trying to steal credit for the strong progressive Democratic victory in this year's Congressional elections.

[mr715]

16. The DNC won.

And Ill take any DNC victory.

And I'll vote for anyone with a D after their name - anyone. I'd vote for whoever I would support 1 time more than the R. I dont care if its Mr. Kucinich, Mr. Kennedy, Mrs. Clinton, or Mr. Lieberman.

Had I need able, I would have voted for Dukakis with zeal. I remember going to grade school and supportin' him against the other 2nd graders.

BUT I dont buy, necessarily, that Kucinich is Leader Moonbeam, our destined leader.

It is the purists - the people who savage Lieberman for 10% of his votes, when 90% are on our side. The people who chide Mrs. Clinton for her annointed position as front runner and accuse her of being a "beltway hack", when she is a mature and able liberal politician.

I am a fan, sir, of reason. Not "feelings". This Dennis may make you "feel" good, but I dont think "feelings" should matter in politics. If you support him, as you apparently do, it is fine. I will not try to convince you to vote against your conscience. I ask you, however, to allow me to vote mine. Also, allow me to inquire as to a peculiarity of a campaign that I have noticed.

Kerry makes me feel good and I agree with him 100% of the time. Clinton, ditto. Biden, maybe 50% feel good, 90% agree. Kucinich I agree with maybe 70% of the time. I'll take that over a McCain, a Giuliani, a Romney - but I will not pick a candidate on feelings or catch words and gestures (peace signs). I vote rationally. I choose rationally. I vote for me in someone else.


M

[Ken Burch]

18. It's insulting that you insist that Kucinich supporters are unthinking.

Please tell me why you can't accept that a person could support Kucinich on the basis of rational choice. For myself, I looked at all the candidates and came to the conclusion that he represents the things I support. I don't see him as "Leader Moonbeam" and I've never met a single Kucinich supporter who does.

You can support whoever you want, but it's not your place to say that no one can support a candidate like Dennis Kucinich unless we're irrational cultlike zombies or something. That's way out of bounds and it's completely inaccurate. Enthusiasm does not equate to blind obedience.

And btw, Senator Clinton's position as front-runner is SELF-ANOINTED. Not "Anointed" as if it is the unchallengable truth from ABOVE. If anyone represents a cult, it is HER supporters and their insistence that her candidacy cannot be challenged or questioned. She is not the strongest candidate we could nominate and she is not entitled to dictate the terms of the 2008 contest. If she does run, it must be as one candidate among many, not as "Empress-in-Waiting".

[mr715]

19. Uh

She is.

Kucinich is your man - cool. He isnt mine.

My man or woman is a rational pick for my interests.



M

[Ken Burch]

21. So is mine.

Don't assume that you have the sole claim to rationality.

[mr715]

23. I dont

I do claim that my choice is RATIONAL CHOICE.

Self interest and all.

[Ken Burch]

42. Oh, so you've got yours and screw everybody else?

pulling up the ladder after we've climbed it are we?

[cyclezealot]

43. Kerry was called Davos man. My rational choice is Kucinich. Why below

Kerry had few problems with Free Trade until he decided to run for president. Well, we know Kerry atteneded the same social clubs Bush did, when at Yale. Free trade has resulted in this huge decline. Kucinich is my rational choice.


How Dangerous is the Dollar Drop?
By Christian Reiermann

Is an end of an era looming in the foreign exchange markets? The dollar has been depreciating against the euro for weeks. Currency experts and the German government don't yet see this as cause for alarm. The US currency's role as a lead currency isn't as important as it used to be, they say.
Like most central bankers, Jean-Claude Trichet, the president of the European Central Bank (ECB), has a penchant for cryptic comments. Injecting a certain degree of incomprehensibility is a signal to the professionals that he's competent. And when it comes to laymen, industry jargon has the desired effect of generating the necessary respect.

Last Thursday the public was treated to yet another example of Trichet's convoluted speaking style. A number of risks, the ECB president said, could jeopardize a generally favorable economic outlook in the euro zone. They included, according to Trichet, "concerns regarding possible uncontrolled developments triggered by global economic imbalances."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,453906,00.html

[Clark2008]

33. Just a note: in the red/purple states, HRC isn't anymore of a

"rational" choice than The Kooch (there, like that better?).

Neither one of them will flip any reddish-purple state, which we need to win. I'm just relating what I hear from Dems and Indies down here, who, because of our lack of alternative media, seem to think HRC is the bitch the right-wing says she is.

[hijinx87]

12. because it's easier to spell?

if he wins, will he be "President Dennis"? :silly:

[cyclezealot]

24. Yes. It's because his supporters do have that level of comfort.

He is not some stuffed shirts, like many other 04 Dem presidential candidates were. Ever get a chance to set down with Dennis over some pot luck you will understand. His level of honesty and sincerety is impossible to find elsewhere. We, his supporters will not willingly settle for second best. When we know his opponents woffle with the wind.
He did not stick out his campaign to the very end, last convention in Boston, out of vanity. Even with his 70 delegates. He stayed in their for his supporters , who know what they want, what is best for the country, and not involved in some kind of power push to grandize the candidate's ego. He did it for his supporters and for the country. And when he quit and supported Kerry our delegates' votes stayed with Dennis.
Who would call some stuffed shirt by their first name. Not us, that's why Dennis is our candidate.

[Clark2008]

28. I'm not even a huge supporter of his (though I like him) and I

call him Denny. LOL!

I don't know why. He seems so much like us average folk I guess I feel like I know him. Which is why I like him, btw.

[cyclezealot]

34. Studs Terkel

calls Dennis the first man of the people since the beginning of the republic. First working class president ever.

[zeemike]

30. Just as a mater of point

Most politicians that are perceived as "Men of the people" or populist are often called by there first name going way back
"I like Ike" was the campaign slogan in 1956 election
And Truman was called Harry as in "Give em hell Harry"
And Teddy Roosevelt had a stuffed bear named after him.
And we must not forget Abe as in "Honest Abe"
Perhaps it is just the name Dennis that you do not like for some reason.

And BTW I probably will not support Dennis in th primary because I want Gore, but if he is nominated i will work hard to get him elected. It may piss off people here in the states but the world would breathe a sigh of relief should he be elected.

[OzarkDem]

31. He encourages it

I guess because it makes it seem more personal. For years, his signs, bumperstickers, etc. have all just said "Dennis!".

[LWolf]

35. As others have pointed out, he encourages it

by meeting and treating people on a real-person, individual basis. Also, his whole history, and the fact it rides comfortably with him as part of who he is, makes people feel comfortable with him.

While his detractors portray him as somehow extreme, if they actually got to meet and talk with him, they wouldn't find him that way. The only thing that is "extreme" about him is that which sets him apart from his colleagues: the transparency, the "no strings attached," the steadfast, consistent support of people before $$ and power.

You don't have to agree with him on the issues, but I would encourage you to meet him face to face if you get the opportunity. You might gain a better understanding of what drives his supporters.

[cyclezealot]

36. the only thing exteme about Dennis is

his availability to his constituents. Most pols don't encourage that . IT might cause them to have to commit.

[LWolf]

38. That, too. :) n/t

[Eric J in MN]

37. I call him by his full name or by his last name.

I voted for him in the 2004 presidential primary.

[cyclezealot]

41. arguing his policies insane.wonder why dander is up.

Well, guess you expect an automatic response. I say you are the victim of Media manipulation. I don't think you really understand his ideas. His policies are exactly what the country needs to solve it's problems. I am proud to be attracted to Dennis because of his policies. Other policies are just cop outs that will cause me the big yawn on election day. Polls actually show most Americans support SIngle Payer, as does US Steel Corporation. His stands on things like repeal Nafta.
What courage. He needs be awarded a profile in Courage. Nothing kooky about 'our Dennis.'
In fact, I think about it. Maybe this thread is started by someone jealous of our relationship with 'our Dennis.' Sort of like how it felt to be aligned with Bobby Kennedy. I'd call it candidate familiariy 'angst' on your behalf. Too bad other candidates so so called and distant to you.