Christians do not know their Bible

[KKKarl is an idiot]

With the "War on Christmas" in full swing this year, I took time to reflect on what true Christianity is about.

We heard in the last few weeks from the talking heads at Fox News that Jesus would have shopped at Wal-Mart. This is false in the sense that I believe Jesus would not have endorsed the demeaning of the religion he supports by those who proclaim to be Christians. Wal-Mart decided this year to wish customers a "Merry Christmas" as opposed to "Happy Holidays" to get so called "Christians to come to their store, while selling all the goodies in the their store to help so called "Christians" celebrate a "Very Merry Christmas". Jesus in his life time went to the Temple & found the "Money Changers" (John 2:14-15) selling all kinds of animals to help people sacrifice animals to God so that they can have a "very Happy Passover". He did not a shop there but rather overturned their tables & found it a mockery of the religious faith many of the people held to.

For many years we have heard how the taking out of prayer from schools was the work of the devil. Jesus had an interesting take on public prayer (Matthew 6:5-6). He called people who pray in public Hypocrites because all they want to do is draw attention to themselves. He said that prayer needs to be done in a closet so that only God can hear your prayer & reward you accordingly. So people who call for prayer in schools are against the teachings of Jesus.

Manager scenes & the 10 commandments being displayed will definitely be against what the Bible teaches. Jesus never advocated Idols as symbols of one's faith. He was born in a barn & therefore making sure that people do not draw any fanfare from symbolizing his birth. But we have managed to idolize the least by making a great scene of a birth in a barn. It has become an idol in Christianity. But seeing as their is supposed to be no idols in Christianity people have gone away from the truth to make a showing of their so called "Christianity" (2 Corinthians 6:16).

One of the defenses of the great "Culture Warriors" defending the "War on Christmas" say that we are a "Christian Nation". In fact their is no such thing as a "Christian Nation". Israel was a nation that was supposed to be controlled by God before Jesus came along. When he came he did establish a nation but rather a "nation of believers". That meant no matter what nationality you were you were part of the true Christianity by being a Christian. These were not supposed to be gun totting Christians trying to take out the evil Muslim nations but rather a peaceful group of people who in humility brought the message of Jesus Christ to the world, not through "Mega Churches" or so called "Christian Radio & TV" or through prayer conferences in the White House & Congress. When Rome officially assumed Christianity as it's religion it spread the myth of a "Christian Nation" that we now adopt in the USA.

There is so much wrong with what these people believe that they cannot be called "Christian" in the true sense of the word.

[n2doc]

1. And of course they are more than happy to have non "Christians" make the crap

in China instead of supporting US made goods. The manger scenes and plastic light up garbage I have looked at is all made over there. I am surprised they don't have an ad campaign called "Jesus Saves- at Wal Mart!" :sarcasm:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. You're quite right

In the fundamentalist churches especially, ones with no formal instruction for membership, members know only what their minister chooses to emphasize. Ministers do not have to be trained in theology or Scripture--anyone can start a "non-denominational" church and call himself "Reverend"--so someone with an obsession or a political agenda can cherry pick the passages that support his hobby horses and harangue the congregation about them Sunday after Sunday.

If he wants to skip the inconvenient passages, no problem. Few will know the difference, especially since the megachurches tend to draw in people on the basis of providing a community in the impersonal suburbs and putting on glitzy, show bizzy services rather than deepening people's understanding of their faith.

[The Deacon]

3. One Of The Most Christian Of Sects

The Mennonites have a VERY strict seperation of Church & State. And lest we forget it, the first Europeans to settle on this Continent were fleeing State Religion.
The current crop ARE NOT Christians - they are the very same Pharisees who condemned Christ for blasphemy, then got on the Christ bandwagon when Constitine made Christianity the State Religion of the Roman Empire.

[jody]

4. "no such thing as a 'Christian Nation'." Not the U,S, but other countries have state religions.

State religion

Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their official religion (by denomination):

Roman Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their official religion:
· Argentina
· Bolivia
· Costa Rica
· El Salvador
· Haiti
· Liechtenstein
· Malta
· Monaco
· Some cantons of Switzerland
· Vatican City

Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their official religion:
· Cyprus
· Greece
· Finland

Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their official religion:
· Denmark
· Iceland
· Norway
· Finland

Anglican
Jurisdictions that recognize an Anglican church as their state religion:
· England - Church of England

Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their official religion:
· Some cantons of Switzerland

Islamic countries
Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion:
· Afghanistan (State religion)
· Algeria
· Bahrain
· Bangladesh (State religion)
· Brunei
· Iran
· Iraq
· Jordan
· Kuwait
· Libya
· Maldives (State religion)
· Mauritania
· Morocco
· Oman
· Pakistan (State religion)
· Qatar
· Saudi Arabia (Religion of the Kingdom)
· Somalia
· Tunisia
· United Arab Emirates
· Yemen

Sunni Islam
· Algeria
· Malaysia
· Pakistan (as National-sanctioned religion)
· Saudi Arabia (as state-sanctioned religion)
· Somalia

Shi'a Islam
· Iran (as state-sanctioned religion)

Buddhist countries
Countries which recognize Buddhism as their official religion:
· Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)
· Cambodia (Theravada Buddhism)
· Kalmykia, a republic within the Russian Federation (Tibetan Buddhism - sole Buddhist entity in Europe)
· Sri Lanka (Theravada Buddhism - The constitution accords Buddhism the "foremost place," but Buddhism is not recognized as the state religion. )
· Thailand (Theravada Buddhism)
· Tibet Government in Exile (Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism)

Note a significant percent of illegal aliens are from South and Central America where the state religion is Roman Catholic.

If illegal aliens are given U.S. citizenships, they could augment Roman Catholic membership in the U.S. :shrug:

[KKKarl is an idiot]

10. I understand

But my point was the fact that the Christianity that Jesus brought is not supposed to be a state religion. If states declare Christianity their religion then they are wrong because governments cannot dictate Christianity it is a religion that has to come from the heart. I believe in electing righteous leaders not Christian leaders because they will feel the need to impose their Christianity onto others. I believe by having these idiots in power for 6 years has damaged the US & at the same time made a mockery of Jesus's message.

[jody]

11. A blanket condemnation of Christians would include Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton,

and others.

Perhaps you might use an adjective to identify particular Christian groups with which you disagree.

Even then you might find a particular Christian group split over the proper role of religion and government.

One might end up concluding it's not a particular Christian group that's a threat but specific people and that might be true for some people who do not belong to any religious group.

[flakey_foont]

5. Jesus shops at Wal-mart?

missed that one! hmmm,, one has to wonder, when Moses led the Israelites through the desert for 40 years, would they have stopped at 7-11 if there were any back then?

[StoryTeller]

6. I appreciate your point, but disagree on how you got there.

You're right that a lot of people (both Christians and those who are not) misunderstand what it means to follow Jesus. But some of your examples are also a slight misunderstanding.

1) Would Jesus shop at Wal-mart?
I don't think this is the right question to ask. It implies that when Jesus came on the scene, he chose between two existing viewpoints. The question in his day was "What government would Jesus support?" meaning a choice between Jewish independence or Roman rule. His response was to instead talk about what God's kingdom is like, which was a vastly different proposition all together.
He was constantly doing this sort of thing. "Was this man's blindness a result of his own sin or that of his parents." His response? "Neither. But so that the glory of God could be revealed."
So I think that in the question of Wal-mart, you'd find Jesus would have an all together different perspective. It wouldn't be answering the question "to shop at Wal-Mart or not to shop" but perhaps it would be instead a discussion on how to honor God with the money He's blessed you with and the importance of caring about ALL people no matter where they land on an issue.
For me, that means doing what I can to avoid spending my money in Wal-Mart, because I do care about how poorly they treat people. But it also means not judging other people who do shop there, regardless of why they do. I want to find ways to show people that I care about them even if I disagree with them.
And for the record, the money changers incident in the temple was a prophecy-fulfilling act that showed his messianic zeal and dedication for the temple. It wasn't that the merchants were selling animals for sacrifice--that system had been in place for centuries. It was that the merchants were cheating the people and denying the poor the ability to make their sacrifice because the prices were exorbitant. So yes, there are lessons for us to learn from this, but it goes beyond simply the selling of...in our case "religious merchandise."

2) Prayer in schools and Jesus' comments on public prayer: What Jesus was objecting to was not the public nature of the prayer itself. He objected to the inner motive of that prayer. If you read the prayer itself, it goes something like this: "Thanks, God, for not making me like that scummy poor person over there. Thank you for making me so righteous and good and wealthy and attractive..." etc. ad nauseum. His injunction to "pray in secret" is basically an acknowledgment that when we are willing to do something for its own sake, when no one can see us, it's a lot more likely to be genuine and from the heart. It doesn't really have anything to do with public praying, and in fact, there are several occasions where Jesus prays in public.

So the prayer in schools issue is not really related to this scripture at all. Any debate on school prayer needs to be done using arguments pertinent to today, because it's not a scriptural issue at all.

3) Manger scenes, 10 Commandments, and idols--again, your point is understood, but the point of that particular "don't worship idols" commandment was the word "worship." I think it's quite possible for even a fundamentalist to have a manger scene or feel strongly about displaying the commandments without it actually being "worship." I think nativity scenes are kind of cool, myself, especially the collectible ones where you can make an entire village out of it! And I think the whole controversy about displaying the commandments is pretty silly. I don't think there's anything wrong with displaying them, but if there are people bothered by it, I don't think it should be a big deal to take them down, either.
The problem isn't so much with people worshiping the objects themselves. Where a lot of Christians get into trouble is that they worship the ideal the object represents. In the case of nativity scenes and commandments, what they are representing to a lot of Christians is the historical supremacy of the Christian faith in American culture. The problem is, then, that they are wanting to hold on to that privilege and power instead of considering their role in life to serve humanity as Christ did. That love of power and control is what drives them to assert that America is a "Christian" nation as well.

So, basically, I agree with your general sentiment that there are many Christians who don't seem to understand or act according to what their own scriptures say is the way to follow God. But sometimes, people from outside that faith tradition try to "hook" them using those same scriptures in ways that aren't very useful or accurate. I just wanted to tweak your arguments a bit to reflect a more accurate application of what the Bible is saying.

[pop goes the weasel]

8. gotta disagree

The OP is more right.

1. Would Jesus shop at Walmart? Jesus is charges the merchants and moneylenders with having turned the temple grounds into a den of thieves. So, does Walmart use religion as a cover or opportunity for inequitably dealings? If so, then Jesus wouldn't shop at Walmart.

2. Public prayer. You haven't read the Lord's Prayer in a while, have you? A better paraphrase is: "Our father who is in heaven, you are holy. May your kingdom come and may your will be done on earth just as is done in heaven. Give us the food we need to survive through the day, and forgive us when insult or harm you in the same proportion that we forgive people who insult or harm us. Don't put temptations in our path, in fact, get us out of any situations where we are tempted to do evil. You are amazing and can do this. Thanks." As for it being about public prayer, it is about a particular kind of public prayer. Jesus used the Pharisees as an example of bad public prayer, of prayer being done to call attention to one's own personal righteousness and to imply that those surrounding the pray-er are less righteous. Thus Jesus said not to use prayer in that way. Intrusive prayer in a common public area is always the sort of prayer that Jesus had condemned. Praying with friends or at a religious meeting or when asked to do so as a guest in someone's house is not the sort of public prayer that Jesus was condemning.

3. Idol worshipping. Yeah, the rightwing fundies are guilty as charged. The majority of them do not, for example, have any better an idea of what is in the 10 commandments than you had of what is in the Lord's Prayer. They don't care about that. They really believe that putting symbols of their faith in various places will magicly remedy all ills. If they believed in the ideas behind those symbols, they wouldn't need the symbols. You like nativity sets as toys--they like nativity sets as talismans. There is a huge difference.

[StoryTeller]

9. I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from.

I'm simply trying to point out that Jesus always looks at the heart of a matter. Regarding shopping at Wal-mart, I stated that Jesus' primary concern is with people and that he would probably turn the question around on us and broaden it to "do you honor the Lord with how you spend your money?" That encompasses shopping at Wal-mart and a lot of other uses of money. But he also would not condone judging or condemning people simply because they DO shop at Wal-mart. He would look to what their motives are and WHY they shop there, and those motives and intents are what he would respond to. I think we should make every effort to do the same.

Regarding prayer--I have no idea why you would bring up the Lord's prayer or try to imply that I am not familiar with it. As it happens, I can quote it from memory and paraphrase it on my own. But yours was a good paraphrase. The prayer I was paraphrasing in my post was that of the Pharisee in Luke 18:10-12. That's what I understood the OP to be referring to in the point about public prayer. This is a story that Jesus told to illustrate what real humility looks like. (See Luke 18:14 for the "punchline" of the story.) It didn't have anything particularly to do with praying in public. It had to do with true humility. Your assertion that public prayer is always the sort condemned by Jesus has no basis in any of his teachings because he didn't teach about public prayer in and of itself. He taught against using public prayer as a way to build ourselves up and make ourselves look good in front of other people. And you really can't make a blanket statement that public prayer, especially in our society, is ALWAYS used in that way. Most of the time, it's actually more of a tradition, and then it's also used by some Christians as a way to assert their perceived religious power and supremacy. I'm not saying those are okay reasons to pray in public. They're not. I'm just saying that it's inaccurate to use that particular teaching of Jesus in our current debate on public prayer because the point Jesus was trying to make is slightly different than the point being made now. And for the record, I am not in favor of public prayer in schools. And if a conservative Christian was trying to use the Bible innacurately to defend it, I would also dismantle their argument. This is an issue that is culturally based, and not something either side ought to be co-opting the Bible to support.

Nativity sets and 10 commandments--You make some very sweeping, harsh generalizations about what conservative Christians do or do not know and believe. That's just as disingenuous and unhelpful when we do it to them as when they do it to us. Most of my family and friends are at least conservative evangelicals, and a few of them are down right fundamentalists. None of them use either the 10 commandments or nativity sets as "talismans to ward off evil." That is a very strange claim to make. I was right when I said that the emphasis on those things has more to do with them trying to maintain their cultural power than any actual worship of the objects themselves. I'm intimately acquainted with this faith community--I'm just trying to help others understand what's really going on. If it were only as benign as them using these objects as talismans! But it goes a lot deeper than that, and I just thought someone reading this might appreciate the fuller insight.

[MrCoffee]

7. Matthew 23 says all you need to know about these folks