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George McGovern is no peace candidate!

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:02 PM
Original message
George McGovern is no peace candidate!
He voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution to authorize the war in Vietnam! What a hypocrite! He's just responding to the polls. McGovern doesn't have the right to change his mind and be a peace candidate now. Does the think we're stupid? He won't get my support in the primary at all!
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. How'd he do in the election?
Could it have something to do with the fact that voters didn't completely trust him?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The party didn't back him.
The moderate/conservative party leaders will tell liberals they have to swallow their ideals and support their candidates, but they won't do the same for liberal candidates. They sat that one out.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. As an anti war college student who graduated in 1972
and who canvassed for McGovern - NO ONE questioned that he was anti-war in the hundreds of people I spoke to. Many believed Nixon when he again held out a carrot that he would get us peace with honor. Now, nearly every college student at the large mid-western university I was at thought NIXON was a liar.

(I understand the op's sarcasm :) )
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. McGovern fought in WWII. He may have voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution,
but he understood what he was speaking about and did not become the " anti-war" candidate because it was nice on his resume. He knew what he was speaking about.

If I had been able to vote in 1972, I would have supported him no problem, because he knew what he was speaking about, like Murtha, for example.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Are you suggesting
only veterans know what they're talking about?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. No, I am suggesting that a plan should have more than: we need to redeploy.
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 07:25 PM by Mass
and a very vague outline after that. Questions about the how and the when are essential.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Or more than mimicking the answer to the poll question of the day. e/o/m
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. What in the hell are you talking about?
This is 2007, not 1972. Take your lips off the bong, throw away the 'cid, and join us in the 21st century. Incidentally, my parents worked hard for McGovern and I joined them. My indoctrination to Democratic politics.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh yeah, ok
I'm just smoking pot. Nope, no other point to be made here. Its not as though this resembles any statements made in DU on a daily basis about candidates today. Don't use your brain or anything.
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I don't know what you're talking about
I guess I'm just some dumb mfer. But McGovern is ancient news. If you want to make a point toward some other DUer, please say so.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. Every statement in my OP
has been said about Edwards on DU in the last few days.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. He even cosponsored it,
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 07:25 PM by Crunchy Frog
and spent loads of time and energy trying to persuade other Senators to vote for it, and was one of its biggest supporters and cheerleaders, even when many other people were actively opposed to it, and even after the claims made in its favor were shown to be completely false. Didn't he?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. huh
I don't know, but I did notice Edwards changing his position back in '03.

I didn't know Clinical Depression could be a hobby. Funny profile. :)
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I'm glad you find my profile funny.
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 07:29 PM by Crunchy Frog
Or is it clinical depression that you find funny?

I tend to employ a somewhat morbid sense of humor as a coping mechanism for some of my issues.

Anyway, if your post was meant as a compliment, I'll take it as such. :hi:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Yes
it was a compliment. Defining depression as a "hobby" is funny.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Even in Oct 2003, he still
thought the war was worth it per the Hardball interview. I'm not sure when he shifted to thinking the war was a mistake, but it was no earlier than that - 6 months into the war.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. From what I recall of the debates
He never shifted his position at all during the entire course of the 2004 election cycle.

I recall him being critical of *'s handling of the war, but not of the actual decision to invade.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. He was critical of the decision to invade:
Edited on Mon Jan-15-07 01:25 AM by karynnj
1) Before the war, he gave a speech calling on Bush to keep his promise and try diplomacy that was not exhausted, let the inspectors continue their work and NOT rush to war. (Jan 23, Georgetown University.) (Do not rush to war - was the last sentence and it was well reported.)

the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don’t have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people…We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult…I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=1145

(bolded phrases were repeated hundreds of times in 2004.)


2) Kerry called for regime change at home when Bush invaded (when about 70% of the population backed the invasion in April 2003) He said that he would have continued the inspections and diplomacy.

3) In his major Iraq speech in September 2004 at NYU, he said:
"Instead, the president rushed to war, without letting the weapons inspectors finish their work. He went purposefully, by choice, without a broad and deep coalition of allies. He acted by choice, without making sure that our troops even had enough body armor. And he plunged ahead by choice, without understanding or preparing for the consequences of postwar. None of which I would have done.

Yet today, President Bush tells us that he would do everything all over again the same way.

How can he possibly be serious?Is he really saying to America that if we know there was no imminent threat, no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to Al Qaida, the United States should have invaded Iraq? "

The entire speech is worth reading to remember what he really said - not what the Republicans said he said. (After this speech - they said it was nothing new and it was the Bush plan.)

He answered the same thing less formally later that day on Letterman saying he would not have gone to war.

4) Through the entire campaign Kerry spoke of how "Bush misled us into war, without exhausting the diplomacy, without letting the inspectors finish their work, without preparing for the peace" (quote from memory of hearing it EVERY day when watching the campaign on CSPAN. (These were also the conditions that Bush had said he would follow and which were listed in Kerry's IWR resolution.)

5) The phrases in 4 - that Kerry repeated constantly are in this Pepperdine College speech(2006), he gave on faith. This is what he had to say about a just war. I bolded things that were in both the IWR speech and which you should remember from 2004.

"Augustine felt that wars of choice are generally unjust wars, that war -- the organized killing of human beings, of fathers, brothers, friends -- should always be a last resort, that war must always have a just cause, that those waging war need the right authority to do so, that a military response must be proportionate to the provocation, that a war must have a reasonable chance of achieving its goal and that war must discriminate between civilians and combatants


In developing the doctrine of Just War, Augustine and his many successors viewed self-restraint in warfare as a religious obligation, not as a pious hope contingent on convincing one's adversaries to behave likewise.Throughout the centuries there have been Christian political leaders who argued otherwise; who contended that observing Just War principles was weak, naïve, or even cowardly.

It's in Americas' interests to maintain our unquestionable moral authority -- and we risk losing it when leaders make excuses for the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo or when an Administration lobbies for torture.

For me, the just war criteria with respect to Iraq are very clear: sometimes a President has to use force to fight an enemy bent on using weapons of mass destruction to slaughter innocents. But no President should ever go to war because they want to -- you go to war only because you have to.

The words "last resort" have to mean something .

In Iraq, those words were rendered hollow. It was wrong to prosecute the war without careful diplomacy that assembled a real coalition. Wrong to prosecute war without a plan to win the peace and avoid the chaos of looting in Baghdad and streets full of raw sewage. Wrong to prosecute a war without considering the violence it would unleash and what it would do to the lives of innocent people who would be in danger."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091801046.html


The confusion may be that the Republicans conflated the IWR (oct 2002) with going to war (March 2003) and many on the left agreed. Kerry also spent more time trying to say what he would do differently in Iraq. We were there that wasn't going to change even if everyone agreed we shouldn't have invaded. Kerry needed the anti-war people plus people who thought we had to succeed in the war and thought he could do a better job. (The first group was too small to win.

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. You're talking about Kerry. I was talking about Edwards.
This is a thread about Edwards (though it appears to be one about McGovern).

I was aware that Kerry had spoken critically about the invasion before it happened. I'm not aware that Edwards did.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Sorry - you are totally right
Looking back I can see this was about Edwards - and I agree he was not only NOT critical, but very much a cheerleader even 6 months later.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. I noticed Edwards changing during the debates
Bush had a resolution in Congress asking for Billions more dollars for the war. Kucinich was the first one to say he would vote against it, while Dean pulled a cop-out "Only if the money comes from the tax cuts" non-answer, and the others said they weren't sure yet. Except Edwards, who was the second candidate after Kucinich who said he would vote against further funding for the war. Then Dean flip-flopped and a couple others followed.

Edwards stuck his neck out a little when Dean was playing it safe. That's when I started to take better notice of him.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. When did you notice this "change".....
cause as of November of 2003, Edwards still supported the war and said he would have gone to Iraq.

When Russert noted the absence of any Iraqi weapons of mass destruction or any ongoing WMD programs, Edwards insisted that Iraq still posed a threat regardless of whether Saddam Hussein actually "had them at the time the war began or not" because "he had been trying to acquire that capability" previously and therefore posed "an obvious and serious threat to the stability of that region of the world." In short, the Democrats are nominating a vice president who believes the United States has the right to invade any country that at some point in the past had tried to develop biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons capability.
Given that that would total more than 50 countries, the prospects of Edwards as commander-in-chief is rather unsettling.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/zunes.php?articleid=3074


and



http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3131295

Let me ask but the war, because I know these are all students and a lot of guys the age of these students are fighting over there and cleaning up over there, and they're doing the occupation.

Were we right to go to this war alone, basically without the Europeans behind us? Was that something we had to do?

EDWARDS: I think that we were right to go. I think we were right to go to the United Nations. I think we couldn't let those who could veto in the Security Council hold us hostage.

And I think Saddam Hussein, being gone is good. Good for the American people, good for the security of that region of the world, and good for the Iraqi people.


MATTHEWS: If you think the decision, which was made by the president, when basically he saw the French weren't with us and the Germans and the Russians weren't with us, was he right to say, "We're going anyway"?

EDWARDS: I stand behind my support of that, yes.






http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3131295
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. See post 34 n/t
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. Okay, I think I get it.
What you are saying is that McGovern was originally for the war, but then as it wore on he decided that he had been mistaken. You want us to realize that antiwar was the correct position to hold. He was right about the war once he opposed it. Therefore we should support anybody who opposes this war because we need all the help we can get in bringing this nightmare to a close. Is that right?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Yeah
Pretty much. I recognize and appreciate those who saw that the war was wrong from the start, but I also think there has to be a point when we have to stop holding it against someone when they see the light and come over to the anti-war side.

McGovern was probably the most pro-peace candidate for President in modern times, yet even he voted for Vietnam initially. Everything in my post has been said on DU about Edwards in the last few days. I'm making the point of how unreasonable it sounds to be so unyielding about Edwards when one could fairly make the same accusations about someone like McGovern who has unquestionable peace credentials.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. But, apparently, McGovern didn't ask if a poll had been taken
each time he was asked to give his opinion, either.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
20. Surely McGovern would have known better in 2003. nt
Edited on Mon Jan-15-07 01:32 AM by Clarkie1
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
23. the sign of a thinking man
is one who isnt afraid to change his position once he/she learns more about what is going on or the situation changes.

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Indeed. Why did they not learn from history before they voted? nt
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
24. I'm voting Nixon. He has a SECRET PLAN to end the war!
n/t
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. In 1964
the Senate was informed that the United States had been attacked by the North Vietnamese in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Did Iraq attack the United States?

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Good point. nt
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harveyc Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. Maybe he changed his mind like John Edwards, 1968 ...
In 1968 Sen. George McGovern and Sen. Mark Hatfield got a bill to the floor of the Senate that would have cut off funding for the Vietnam war. It was voted on but did not pass. 30 senators voted for it.

He did more than the current Democrat leadership we elected is doing to stop the war in Iraq.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. roflmao
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes, certainly McGoverrn would have know better by 2003.
All of them should have known better.

"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."
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Lord Byron Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
36. Johnson wasn't Bush
Gulf of Tonkin wasn't the IWR.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. But Bush thinks he's Johnson
I went to the LBJ Ranch and realized what image Bush is trying to mimic. Of course, LBJ was the real thing while Bush is all hat.
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Lord Byron Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Hahaha I can believe it
I think voting for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution is more forgivable than voting for the IWR. Johnson was a reputable president. Bush is a dimwitted psychopath. Also, the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam was a clear threat to the South Vietnamese government, our ally. Iraq wasn't a clear and present threat. Bit different. Both wars were disasters though.
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