I Have Nothing Against Obama, but....

[Joe Fields]

Where's the beef? I've watched Obama, and I have to tell you, I am reminded of the movie "The Candidate", starring Robert Redford. I see very little substance there. He seems to be saying all the right things, but we need a proven leader at this point to, for one thing undo all of the evil that this administration has caused, both at home and abroad.

It's certainly no secret that Bush (the fox) has allowed all of his other fox friends into the chicken coop to pillage and plunder our national treasure and our heritage. Does Obama have what it takes to right these wrongs? Will he even be interested?

There is only one person, as far as I can see who would have the wherewithal to clean out the muck and put this country back on the right course, and his spokesman says he has no plans to run, and that is Al Gore. I truly believe that Gore would have the fire and the desire, plus the experience to know where to begin and how to get this country back on track.

As I said earlier, I don't dislike Obama, but I am old enough, and have witnessed far too much, and I think it may be premature to hitch yourselves to this rising young star. He has a lot to prove, and I'm sure, as time goes on he will recieve a baptism of fire. Will he survive? Time will tell.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Unlike Certain Other Candidates

He actually put his butt on the line and was vocally against the IWR. That's more leadership than certain "frontrunners" have ever shown.

[Tellurian]

3. At this point we know so little about Obama, he requires deeper scrutiny..

Obama's team released sealed records against his opponents Hull, the frontrunning Democrat and Republican challanger Ryan, a few weeks before the primary:

"Did not Clarence Page’s own Chicago Tribune and local Chicago newsman Chuck Goudie give unusually heavy coverage of the divorce records of Democrat Blair Hull and Republican Jack Ryan to the benefit of a previously invisible, underfunded, candidate with the slenderest of legistative records, named Barack Obama?

Was it accidental or a coincidence that the two opponents with the financial resources to bury Mr. Obama in the primary or general elections were relentlessly hammered on ” scandals” by the Trib while the same paper ran multipage ” puff ” pieces on Saint Obama ?

If we searched the email database and phone records of senior editors at the Tribune how many messages would we find from the staff of David Axelrod ? Who happened to slip Chuck Goudie an ( allegedly) anonymous letter detailing Mr. Ryan’s many year old attempt to bring the then Mrs. Jerri Ryan to a sex club ?

Did these two men do anything to deserve having their careers destroyed by a local media that had placed themselves so obviously in Mr. Obama’s corner that no Illinois politician dared to step into Mr. Ryan’s shoes ?


http://thewideawakes.org/archives/2007/02/04/

Wonder if used the same tactics to WIN the General election...interesting!

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Isn't It Sad

That Obama's greatest asset is that he's not *obviously* a lying triangulator who'll do anything the Predator Class asks for a few shekels or a vote?

This is what the Democratic Party has come to.

[Joe Fields]

5. I, for one mourn.

[msongs]

7. just because you're not obvious does not mean you aren't doing it

most candidates have a plan in place, with obvious or not characteristics. I doubt obama is operating without a plan of his choice.

Msongs
www.msongs.com

[Ethelk2044]

8. Obama Greatest Asset

Is that he is looking out for everyday people.  Unlike some
that have been given their life on a silver platter he had to
work his way up.  He worked at the bottom.  He knows what it
is to struggle.  He is unlike the Snake in the grass you
supports.  He speaks what he feels.  He does not talk out of
his ass like those you want in office.   Maybe that is what
you have against him.  He is his on person.  Just Maybe others
should be their own person and this country would be better
off instead of talking talking points.  Oh yeah be friends
with someone just because that person is in office and he may
be able to get you a position in his cabinet.  This country
has seen that for the last 10 - 15 years.  That is why we are
in the Iraq war now,  that is why the jobs are going over
seas.  That is why the middle class can not afford to send
their children to colleges.  That is why the children are
graduating with loans they are struggling to pay back.  I
would rather have someone who looking out for the middle class
and does not care about being friends and care about those who
are struggling to make it day to day.  That is what he stands
for.   He can not help it if you do not like those things. 
Then maybe maybe you need to check your standards.

[MannyGoldstein]

15. Bill Clinton Was Self-Made, And Spoke Lovingly of the 'Little Guy'

and then he went and sodomized the Middle Class.

Hard to tell what folks are really like without a long voting record.

[Tellurian]

19. you hate to admit it, Manny.

So, eight years of Peace and Prosperity never happened.

Manny, do you ever get upon the right side of the bed?

[MannyGoldstein]

23. NAFTA, 'Free' Trade With China,

outsourced torture, failure to respond to repeated al Qaeda attacks (other than blowing up an aspirin factory), turning a blind eye to Wall Street shenanigans...

He did deal with the Balkans reasonably well, and he did get government spending under control. But other than that, he was a tool of the Predator Class.

[Tellurian]

34. Who better to fix it than a Clinton..

I'm sure Bill Clinton is not happy the way NAFA turned out.
Who better than Hillary to make the adjustments to NAFTA
after she becomes president.

[MannyGoldstein]

38. If They Didn't Know That This Would Be the Outcome..

...then they're not very bright.

(But they're very bright)

They're just a proxy for the Predator Class - why else would Mrs. Clinton be, far and away, the biggest recipient of big-money contributions in Congress?

[Tellurian]

41. When Prez Clinton supported NAFTA..

we had a Republican held Congress. They made changes to NAFTA that were never agreed upon by him.
And why, I maintain, who better to make the changes supporting jobs and our economy than another Clinton.

[Tellurian]

16. Obama folded like a cheap suit after all the support he received

Mr. Obama’s record in the state legislature is spotty and has raised certain questions about his supposed idealism.

http://www.vote-smart.org/npat.php?can_id=BS030017&PHPSESSID=a7090747d72cb8e1f5238fb867de2bb4

Most notoriously, he raised displeasure with portions of the gay and lesbian community when he co-sponsored Senate Bill 101 (SB101) — which added the phrase “sexual orientation” to a civil rights act — but failed to do much lobbying for it personally, and didn’t reach out to the black caucus for their support. Some said he was tippy-toeing around the issue to avoid confronting some powerful black church groups that opposed the change; this was while representing mainly Hyde Park and surrounding areas and the Gold Coast.

Later, there was the issue of a parity pay bill for Illinois homemakers, HB4176. This bill was the result of years of hard work by a large, low-income union, which had expended enormous resources pushing and lobbying the bill. The union had thrown rabid support behind Obama in the primaries, spending the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars in manhours to get him the nomination. Many of these workers were women, many elderly, who spent weeks out in the freezing Chicago winters registering voters and attending rallies. When the bill reached Mr. Obama’s committee for a vote, he tried to transfer it to another committee to avoid having to cast a vote himself. Why? Perhaps he feared angering a rival union which was slightly smaller but had more political muscle.

Not exactly a profile in courage.

http://caosblog.com/247

..

[ripple]

33. Just to be clear, that snip is from a blog

and not from Project Vote Smart. In other words, it is an opinionated hit job.

[Tellurian]

35. We're at the tip of the iceberg..

I'm not in a hurry to reveal anything negative about Obama's history.
The Truth will rise to the surface as it always does in the end.

We have 20 long months to go. The piece I referenced was found after a 5 min search just an hour ago.

The tip off that something isn't right and about to surface was the Cook article on another thread.

What is apparent to me is this; Obama is much more vulnerable to attack than we were ever lead to believe.

[ripple]

43. No candidate is immune from attack

I appreciate that you were making a point, rather than just locking it into attack mode. Thanks for clarifying that, as that wasn't the impression I got from your other post.

Still, I think you must know that there are also a lot of pretty damning attacks readily available against Hillary, Edwards, Biden, etc. As I said, no candidate is immune from attack.

I'm honestly trying to keep my candidate comments positive and constructive, but when I see the sort of attacks I've seen posted on this thread and others, it definitely takes some restraint not to play tit-for-tat.

But back to your point- I don't think Obama is any more or less vulnerable than any other candidate. I'm definitely not going to withdraw my support for him out of fear of the unknown. The fact that he hasn't withstood a campaign as contentious as this election will be has nothing to do with whether or not he has the mettle to see it through to the end. I certainly don't think he has any pre-conceived notion that this campaign is going to be anything less than the fight of his life. He's demonstrated that he is an astute political observer and after all, Chicago politics aren't exactly pattycake.

We have a great field of candidates this time around, despite my reservations about a couple and despite the fact that there are a couple more people I'd like to see in the race. I'll wholeheartedly support whoever gets the party nod, but for now, I'm going to continue to support the person I believe would benefit this nation the most.

[Tellurian]

46. The point is you're all falling down at Obama's feet

as if he's the Second Coming..

He won't hold up to the scrutiny and will falter because of it.
His timing is ill thought out. He should have waited until his senate term was up
and he came in strong with an impressive list of accomplishments on his record.

His only claim to fame is not voting for the War. (because he wasn't in office yet)

I'm afraid that is not going to cut it with the American people or Hollywood.

[ripple]

50. I'm not falling at anyone's feet

And I reject the implication that Obama supporters are nothing more than fans who latched on to some sort of a fad. Nothing could be further from the truth, as far as I'm concerned. I've been an avid political junkie all of my adult life and believe me, I'm not easily swayed by hype.

Obama's timing is perfect, not just for him (strike while it's hot and all of that), but for what our nation needs right now- a progressive, populist leader. When it comes to his accomplishments in the senate, Obama consistently accomplishes more every legislative session than any other junior senator- Hillary included. There's a reason he's the most frequently drafted player on Fantasy Congress.

I've defended people like Hillary before when some have tried to compare their vote for the IWR with people who weren't in a position to vote. Fair is fair and no one can speak to what someone else would have done in that position with 100% certainly.

With that said, it's also unfair to dismiss or trivialize the principled and vocal stance Obama took prior to the war- at a time when it was definitely not politically expedient to do so. Hillary, Kerry, Edwards, and others voted on the IWR for political reasons and political reasons alone- they did not want to be portrayed as being 'weak on terror'. They made a political gamble and they lost. Obama had the correct foresight and judgment and he was very vocal about his opposition to the IWR and looming invasion, despite what it might cost him politically. Those are the qualities of a leader.

Your predictions about how Obama will respond to scrutiny are nothing more than wishful thinking on your part, with no basis in fact. He's already faced a number of insidious attacks from the media without missing a beat and in fact, his campaign handed Hillary's ass to her back on a platter just yesterday. I'm not seeing signs he will falter, no matter how much you might wish for such a thing to occur.

[Forkboy]

54. This is kinda funny

"The point is you're all falling down at Obama's feet as if he's the Second Coming.."

I see that from the Hillary supporters just as equally.It always amuses me here when people criticize a candidate or supporters about being just like them.

[fuzzyball]

59. Unlike Gore and Clintons, Obama is a green horn when it comes

to the knowledge of how to get things done in Washington. My guess
is if Obama manages to win nomination and then again in GE, he admin
will turn out to be a giant gridlock. It will be a gigantic disappointment
for those on the very far left end of spectrum who are pining for Obama.

[blm]

12. The MUCK is deep-seeded CORRUPTION. I will support Gore if he runs

because I believe he will take a different approach now that he's been away from DC awhile, but he was never big on anti-corruption and open government when he was IN power.

The anti-corruption creds belong to Kerry, Waxman, Conyers, Waters as the most active against government corruption. Feingold and Leahy are heading in that direction.

[Joe Fields]

18. True, but then corruption wasn't the six-headed hydra that it has

become since the Bushies came into power. Gore spent most of his time finding ways to streamline the government. Now, since he has been out of office, he has had an epiphany, or at least feels free to speak his true mind. Al Gore, unplugged from all of the "handlers and pollsters" I believe, is the force this country needs. He could be the right man at the right time. I sure hope we can persuade him to run.

[blm]

28. I agree - the Al Gore removed from DC is the Gore I will trust.

I think he has a newfound appreciation for the fight against government corruption.

[Tellurian]

22. So, why is Kerry supporting Obama?

On an initial search there is plenty more coming out re Obama..
yet Kerry hasn't a problem with the tactics used by Obama's team to have sealed records
unsealed to use against his opponent..

Please fill me in where Kerry's ethics begin and end...and spare me the Clinton cut and paste spiel,
I haven't had my breakfast yet.

[blm]

29. I haven't a clue what you are even talking about. Kerry hasn't endorsed anyone.

And if you are concerned about ANYTHING that has to do with Obama's ethics than you must be beside yourself on the protection Bill Clinton has given to Poppy Bush all these years for SERIOUS crimes of office that led us down this road we are on today with Bush2.

[Tellurian]

32. Obama hasn't been screened throughly as of yet..

I'm sure theres plenty more we haven't heard or know about yet.
We're in the early stages of discovery on Obama where the true
reveal of his profile and past history hasn't been made public yet.

I'm all set with the Clintons. You, on the other hand remain obsessed
with the Clintons and eternally stuck in a vacuum.

[blm]

36. The difference is I am a CITIZEN who cares about open government and you are

a Clinton supporter who thinks they were right to protect secrecy and privilege for Poppy Bush by not dealing with the outstanding matters left to him on IranContra, BCCI, Iraqgate and CIA drugrunning.

Even after 9-11, you and the Clintons are OK with protecting Bush's secrecy over the lives of our FELLOW CITIZENS.

[Tellurian]

37. No, the difference is you are a purist and I'm a realist..

purists live in a world of unrealistic expectations.

[blm]

39. Expecting DEMOCRATIC administration to protect constitution over Poppy Bush's

secrecy and privilege is impractical and unrealistic?

Care to make that case to the 9-11 families? Was 9-11 REAL enough for you?

[Tellurian]

44. Nothing ever changes with you..you're a one trick pony..

:tinfoilhat:

[blm]

48. Defending Clinton's decision to protect Poppy Bush is one trick you seem to prefer.

Fighting to expose corruption and defending open government is not a trick, it is a DUTY for any aware citizen of a democracy.

Those who heap scorn on legitimate citizen concerns like corruption and secrecy that have GREAT effect on this nation's wellbeing should try refocusing on the honor of their own characters and citizenship.

Exit polls showed most Americans were concerned about corruption and Iraq. Laugh at us all you want, but that shows YOUR character for what it is.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

51. You have a protection agenda for the corrupt, guarding their secrecy and privilege

and rationalize it every step of the way. Those who protect the corrupt show poor character and judgement.

[Tellurian]

56. Your Tinfoil Hat awaits..

:tinfoilhat:

[oasis]

52. "Butt on the line"? A senate district within the state of Illinois.

:eyes:

[Telly Savalas]

61. Neither Clinton or Edwards were up for re-election in 2002.

They had no more to risk than Obama, yet they chose to give Bush the green light.

Obama obviously had aspirations for higher offices at the time, yet wasn't concerned about pandering to the war supporters.

[oasis]

64. What's the makeup of his former district? nt

[Kerry fan]

2. Also Kerry/Feingold/Clark could do it.

Really sad. The best and the brightest are not running. What has this country become!

[Blue_In_AK]

53. I agree with you, Kerry Fan

[antiimperialist]

6. Question is: Would you prefer McCain or Giuliani?

And if your answer is "no, i'd prefer Obama", then deep inside you admit that experience is not what counts, but desire to implement the liberal policies necessary to bring this country forward.

[Joe Fields]

10. The amount of time one puts into politics does not equate ...

with experience, in my book. True, McCain has experience, but so have idiot bosses of mine in the past, who rose through the ranks of the companies I have worked for, based on the "Peter Principle", and also just through sheer longevity.

There is the run of the mill "experience", and then there is "experience coupled with wisdom and true vision."

Al Gore has exhibited the latter, time and again.

[Ethelk2044]

14. Experience is What counts

We have Senators in office for 15 years or more.  They have
experience alright.  We still are in a war for no reason at
all.  We still have middle class jobs going overseas.  We
still have children who can not afford college.  We still have
homeless in the US.  We still have homeless veterans after
they have given their all for their country.  We still have
veterans without insurance.  We still have children not being
educated properly.  Oh yeah,  I forgot their experience has
taken care of all of these things and I am just dreaming that
all of this still exists.  BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE EXPERIENCE.
WE HAVE COME SO FAR. NONE OF THESE THINGS STILL EXISTS. Yes,
they have experience.  They ahve been in Washington lining
their pockets with money from Lobbist.  They are not worried
about the middle or low income people of this world.  We need
fresh blood in the White house looking out for every day
people.

[Colobo]

9. I have nothing against anyone, but....

I proudly support Barack Obama for president of the US, based on the judgement she's shown as a senator and based on his message.

[Dawgs]

11. Give me a break,

"...for one thing undo all of the evil that this administration has caused, both at home and abroad"

How about his plan to bring the troops home by March 2008?
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/30/45227.aspx
How about his proposal to fix Walter Reed?
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/022107M.shtml

This thread is nothing more than a 'Hillary style' hit piece from an Al Gore supporter.

[Joe Fields]

24. "Hillary-styled hit piece?"

This thread definitely is not intended to be a "hit piece." These are the most serious times of my life, and I would hope that everyone pays very close attention, and makes the most informed choice that they can. Many serious and damaging precedents have been set, and have become policy under the corrupt Bush administration. It's going to take someone with the desire, track record and ability to turn this ship of state upright.

I simply believe that Al Gore, the true visionary is the right person for the job.

[Dawgs]

58. Yet, you attack Obama without getting the facts.

I'm a bigger fan of Gore than Obama, but I would start a thread like this. It's really sad.

[Joe Fields]

60. What's so sad? I'm offering my opinion as to "Obamamania."

There is good reason to jump onto Gore's bandwagon. Gore has proven himself to be a true visionary.

Now, I am not, I repeat not saying that many here and around the country are supporting Obama because he is the new sexy thing in politics. But many are. If you choose to ignore that fact, well, it doesn't change the fact that it is indeed a fact.

But in recent years, I've seen how people got swept up with Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Wes Clark, and now Obama.

In my youth we got swept up with John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, George McGovern, and Eugene McCarthy. Some withstood the baptism by fire and others withered away. My point. Something that burns red hot can burn out quickly. It has yet to be determined where Obama will land: on top or on the ash heap of former political "superstars."

I have every right to reserve judgement about him, and it is arrogant and condescending of you to condemn me for it.

Now, do you want to to stack Obama up against Al Gore? If Obama and Gore both become involved in the race, then it will turn into a matter of "style over substance," because Obama's only chance will then become his sex appeal. That is, unless his campaign resorts to tried and true methods of mudslinging.

[zulchzulu]

13. Look at his record and maybe read his books

Voting record:
http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BS030017

Interest Group ratings:
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BS030017

Go to his web site:
http://www.barackobama.com/

From there, you can attend events and kick the tires...

Check out his books:


http://www.amazon.com/Dreams-My-Father-Story-Inheritance/dp/1400082773


http://www.amazon.com/Audacity-Hope-Thoughts-Reclaiming-American/dp/0307237699/ref=bxgy_cc_text_a/102-1617848-3802512

[Skidmore]

42. zz, this deserves a thread of it's own.

[zulchzulu]

57. Thanks for the suggestion

I started a thread with the links...

:hi:

[Buzz Clik]

17. No substance? Try paying attention.

[Joe Fields]

20. lol

[BeyondGeography]

21. Yeah, he's a real lightweight

Editor of the Harvard Law Review who went into community organizing (focused on voter registration drives) after graduation rather than enrich himself.

Worked for a civil right law firm (a lot of money in that, too).

Constitutional law scholar and professor.

An accomplished writer whose books are actually interesting and not turgid ghost-written exercises in self-justification.

We could also talk of his many initiatives as a legislator. The overarching theme of his work has been to support low-income families, reduce the role of private money in politics and generally take back government for its citizens.

Comparing Obama, a dedicated public servant who has sponsored 152 bills in two years in the Senate, to Redford's character in The Candidate (who asked, "what do we do now?" after he won) is completely asinine.

[ellacott]

25. I have nothing against Obama, but?

That's an oxymoron. You do have something against him. Your perception that he has no experience. That's a claim that's getting a little weak. History might tell you that voters don't think Senators have enough experience since it's been so long since this country has elected a Senator for President.

There has yet to be a debate but everyone has already picked their candidate. We have over a year to go.

[Joe Fields]

26. I don't dislike the man. I'm just pointing out that I have seen too

many times in my life where hordes of people jump on someone's bandwagon, because they are the "hot, new sexy" thing to come along. And even Obama supporters must agree that there is a lot of that going on right now.

[ellacott]

27. But we are over a year away from the election

The same may have been said about Edwards or Kennedy.

I think it's not a very good argument(the lack of experience) when we haven't even had a debate yet.

[Joe Fields]

31. Don't ignore the the elephant in the room. (or in this case the donkey)

If Al Gore runs, there is no way that Obama's, or anyone else's experience could match up.

[Ethelk2044]

30. I remember 2004

Where we all jumped on Al Gore's bandwagon.  Myself included. 
Therefore you are stating he did not have enough experience
either than.  You agree.

[Joe Fields]

40. 2004? Gore Bandwagon? What have you been smoking?

Gore was in self-imposed exile in '04. You couldn't have pried him out in the open with a crowbar.

[bcoylepa]

45. Have you read his book?

wonder how many on DU have? He is a man with a mind and a vision - time will tell if he can stay true to it - but having read his book The Audacity of Hope I think he knows what the problems are and has ideas on how to fix them - wouldn't that be nice for a change???

[Joe Fields]

47. If Gore doesn't run, I sure hope you are right.

And to be totally honest, I haven't read Obama's book, yet. But I will.

Mainly, I was commenting on the rising and rapid groundswell of "Obamamania", which can be deceptive.

On a personal level, I like the man, and he is a compelling speaker. While I haven't digested everything the man has said or written, what I have seen so far is reminiscent of Robert Redford's "The Candidate."

Sure hope I'm wrong. The Senator is in a position to do this country a great amount of good.

[mnhtnbb]

55. I'm almost finished with his book, and I'm not convinced. Two big problems

1) He refers to Bush having 'won two elections'. Obama either doesn't know what's been going on since 2000, doesn't want to touch it politically, or thinks election shenanigans won't come back to bite him in the a$$.

2) He gives the media the same pass. He either doesn't want to acknowledge that they're corporate whores, doesn't want to touch it politically, or thinks he can sweet talk the media into giving him mostly positive coverage. (Or freeze 'em out--as in the FOX situation).

These are two HUGE problems for our democracy--which is sinking fast. You can't fix a problem if you deny its existence.

I'm not completely turned off (since I haven't finished the book), but for me,
Obama has negatives just like the other candidates.

[Colobo]

63. Mmm...

1) 2000 election was very questionable, almost, if not, fraudulent, but I think the majority of the country, including many people here (me included) admit or think that Bush did win in 04, just like his side lost in 06. I'm not denying there is election fraud going on in the country, but I'm sure it's been there forever, benefitting both sides at different times.

2) He can't attack the media like many would like, because if he does, he won't win. He's playing politics there, like any viable candidate.

You need to understand that any candidate, Gore included, that comes out saying "how the 04 elections was stolen" or "how the media is a corporate whore" will never make it to the WH. I understand your point and your passion about those two issues, but it has to be said: no viable candidates will touch that.

[mnhtnbb]

65. In response

to 1) I recommend Mark Crispin Miller's book, "Fooled Again: How the Right Stole the 2004 Election & Why They'll Steal the Next One Too (Unless We Stop Them)"

2) loss of the 4th estate in this country is a HUGE problem. The majority of the press in this country is nothing more than a propaganda arm of the Bushies. Obama devotes an entire chapter in his book to the Constitution, but takes a complete pass on discussing the necessity of a free press in a democracy (at least as far as I've read and I'm almost finished with the book)

If Obama thinks he's going to get a pass from the media, he's naive.

[JI7]

62. he has a record going back before he became Senator

look into it