Take a deep breath dem bashers

[whosinpower]

And think long and hard before you flame away in anger. The reality is that the stories we are hearing about the Congress trying to find a compromise to send Bush a war bill....is hearsay and supposition. It is meant to divide us. And your flaming irrationality shows that it is working.

Your anger is misdirected. Instead, take careful, smart, and calculated aim at where it belongs.....with the GOP and with Bush.

Look, we all want to end the war. And some of us really want to rub Bush's nose in the horrible mess he has created. But if we screw up and abandon our representatives now when they really need us, we are doing ourselves no favors. They need us now more than ever, to be supportive, to give them strength where they thought they had none, and to show them that the nation supports them. If you wail away about them being cowards, traitors--then you are only helping the GOP.

There is a stark contrast between Bush and the democratic Congress. Bush does not want to end the war. He wants to shove it onto the next administration....and then the GOP will blame them for the resulting chaos. This is the big long term plan. They never intended to end the war, ever.

So what do we do knowing this? Knowing that while the democratic party controls the Congress and SEnate--it lacks the support to override a veto.....instead of attacking the dems for being weak......lambast the GOP for still supporting a lost cause, a failed war, and a wretch of a president. The dems ARE on our side. It is the GOP that must recognize the political jeapardy they face when looking to the American people for re election. Take it to them. Tell them in no uncertain terms.

getting off soapbox now. Sorry for the rant. Back to your regular programing.

[rosesaylavee]

1. AND, take aim at the M$M, tools of the Goopers and *co

Nice sane post. Thanks!

[Ian David]

2. "Hearsay and supposition." And you know what they say about supposition.

"Supposition" is the origin of the word "Suppository."

[Martin Eden]

13. Answer: innuendo

Question: what do you call an Italian suppository?

[Virginia Dare]

3. It's a razer thin majority, the Dems can't do it alone..

what they're doing is ramping up the pressure on the Republicans. Politically, they are in a good position right now, IMO. Unfortunately, more people die in the meantime.

[BOSSHOG]

4. Good rant

They need us now. If the dems caved bush would not have received a bill he thought he had to veto. They will forge on and every thing that goes bad in Iraq is all on bush and his fellow constitution haters in the congress - period.

[Norquist Nemesis]

5. Well said! K&R!

[old guy]

6. I'm trying hard to stay positive, really I am!

[Arkansas Granny]

7. You've made some good points here. Without a veto-proof

majority, the Democrats are going to have to work hard and smart to advance their causes and they will have to have support from some Republicans to bakc Bush into a corner. Patience is required right now.

[acmavm]

8. Give me your opinion on this since you are lecturing everyone

on how they should feel about this.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2832754

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. The lecture is sorely needed. (nt)

[mike_c]

9. I'm waiting until they actually put together a bill, BUT...

...I have ZERO TOLERANCE for Vichy Dems. The war against Iraq is not a political game-- it's a crime against humanity. I hope the democratic congressional leadership has the courage to put a stop to it.

[NavyDavy]

10. I am with you ..... I was flamed on another discussion area for

asking to lighten up and give the Dem leaders a chance to do their jobs and stop attacking them like some did before we even took over as majority.....

[Zodiak]

11. This OP needs to be cleaned up

for one....referring to those who criticize capitulation as "Dem bashers" in the title is disingenuous and does not promote any open discussion from the other side. This is underscored by the fact that this thread is full of "me too" posts with little opposition.

What's more, an entreaty to have people calm down in their criticism while we let the Dems do what they want to without pressure is what got us Alito, the Iraq War, the Patriot Acts, the Military Commissions Act, the Bankruptcy bill, numerous other 100 billion dollar appropriations for the Iraq war, Gonzales, Condi, and Roberts. We have a long history of capitulation in recent years, and any entreaty to ignore all of these numerous capitulations to embrace some kind of "faith" that the Dems will do their jobs and is seen as simple lecturing by Democratic authoritarians. Nice for circling the wagons and slapping each other on the back, but not appropriate debate fodder.

The fact remains....Bush is digging in his heels and all kinds of trials balloons for capitulation are going up. You are not going to stop criticism when most of the people on this site have watching this pattern unfold for six years, including after the Dems got the majority. Now we are supposed to believe by faith and trust alone that things will be different?

Lastly, "flaming" describes a condition when two or more participants in a message board go after each other personally. When a person criciszes someone who is not part of the board (like a Dem politician), that is not flaming. The use of such a term makes criticism of Dems seems far more personal than it is. However, calling people "dem bashers" or "Flamers" is considered behavior for starting a flame war. An entreaty to calm down should be done without the use of such inflammatory terms.

[whosinpower]

12. I agree and disagree

While I may of been over the top with some wording--I was simply pointing out that by abandoning the representative you so recently elected--was NOT the way to end the war.

I was also pointing out how quickly those critisize the dem's for not doing more....without even taking into consideration the lack of political power the democratic party had and has now. I was suggesting that those who are so quick, should target the majority of the blame on the GOP instead....for most of those things you mentioned...The Iraq War, Gonzales, Condi, Roberts, the Military Commissions Act, and many many many others are the result of GOP initiatives.

One of the percieved weaknesses of the democratic party is divisiveness. Such lack of faith to the party that has not even been in a position to really do something until recently is what puts the GOP in a better position and harms our cause.....to end the war. I can almost hear them laughing right now....oh look at them eat their own......

And finally - your trial balloon scenario you so aptly mentioned as definitive proof that the dems deserve no faith or trust.......read below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x812737

However, I do apologize to those who may have been upset over my wording if perceived to be inflammatory.

[Zodiak]

17. I do not have definitive proof of anything

As a scientist, I know that such claims are simply for rhetoric and have no place. Please do not go with the strawman that I am dispensing wisdom for the plebes who have to listen to my definitive evidence. All I am doing is showing you why a term such as "trust" doesn;t carry a lot of weight. We have been entreated with trust many times and then betrayed.

Don't worry about my hatred for the pukes....that runs deep and strong. But remember also that puke policies are made legitimate by the lack of opposition from the other party. Until the other party gives it a nod, issues are "controversial".

I care not how the pukes think of us....the divisiveness comes from a cadre of our own party acting like the other side most of the time and denigrating our own base (read: the DLC and the blue dogs). I have done the research on that one. The truth is....the Democratic party acts like they are owed the votes from the left and the left gives it to them each and every time. The divisiveness on the Hill doesn't come from us...it comes from the likes of Steny Hoyer and Ben Nelson.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. No, what got us Alito, Iraq, Patriot Act, etc. was 62 million votes for Bush.

AND NOTHING ELSE.

[Zodiak]

20. Put the caps lock down and stop trying to bully people

No problem in politics is univariate much less a string of problems, so it does no good to try to spin issues so simplistically to an informed audience. We all remember recent history and do not need you to rewrite it for us. Every one of those issues I mentioned carried Democratic votes and Democratic capitulations.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. I think we should each just pretend the other is still on ignore, no?

This is going nowhere fast.

[Zodiak]

24. you chased me to this thread

and then proceeded to throw the all-caps bomb at me. You didn't even know I existed before I told you you were on my ignore list when you called my post on another thread "the most ignorant you have ever read on DU"...now by happenstance you respond to my post on this thread with all-caps? Let's us not pretend this is mutual.

Go back to bullying other DUers...I am not fertile ground for your denigrations.

[Martin Eden]

15. My support is conditional.

I'll refrain from "bashing" the Democratic congress until I see the next war funding bill, but I must tell you I am not optimistic the Dems will place any real constraints on *'s Iraq policy.

I think this military intervention in Iraq is a disaster and cannot be salvaged. I think the Dems in Congress are smart enough to realize that, and also smart enough to realize that if they take ownership of Iraq they will also take the blame for the inevitable horrible consequences of the intervention.

In other words, exerting real leadership is too big of a political risk.

I'm just telling you what I honestly think, so please do not accuse me of bashing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. It's hard to be optimistic for something impossible.

Bush will veto any bill that contains any real constraints on Iraq and we cannot override those votes. We also cannot simply de-fund the war, because we do not have public support to take that course of action.

Ownership is an important term that we are simply giving away to the Republicans on this one.

REPUBLICANS OWN THIS WAR. It was started by Bush and supported by Republicans under their one-party rule. IT IS A REPUBLICAN WAR!

We are actively trying to make this our war, which would be complete political suicide. We tried to pass a funding bill that would be the beginning of the end. BUSH KEPT THE WAR HIS BY VETOING THIS BILL. Let's not do him any favors by trying to take it back from him, shall we? Especially since we can't do a damn thing to end the war as it stands now.

Let him inadvertently support a Democrat for President in 2008 with his asinine policies. As we all should know, THAT is going to be the only true way to end this war.

[Martin Eden]

19. I understand the political implications.

But the non-political reality is that this is neither a REPUBLICAN war nor a DEMOCRATIC war -- it is an AMERICAN war that impacts our entire country.

Avoiding doing what is in the best interests of the country because of the political risk is not the hallmark of good leadership. If political calculations are paramount in the decision-making process, the real change our country desperately needs may never take place.

I understand that political success is necessary in order to implement change, and that there is a fine line between pragmatism and principles. I have to agree that retaking the White House and expanding the Democratic majority in Congress must be the priorities at this point.

But let us also keep in mind that good leadership is sometimes recognized and rewarded, while political calculations can be perceived for what they are and may have negative consequences. The public may have recently rejected the Republicans, but I don't think they've really embraced the Democrats.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. Unfortunately, the good leadership you speak of is rarely rewarded these days.

Not that it has had a high success rate in the past, but given the current political and media climate, anyone going out on a limb is immediately tarred and feathered. It's martyrdom is what it is. If we could singlehandedly implement the changes we need, that'd be one thing, but we can't.

I think I do agree with you, in principle. I think we need more weather balloons out there - people who are going to be re-elected no matter what they say taking a stand for themselves and seeing how it works with the people. Ideally, someone like Barack Obama would take that lead, but he's too interested in becoming President (which is his prerogative, of course.) Perhaps Ben Cardin would be a good candidate for this position, or maybe there are other non-tired voices on this issue that could do it.

I do think you overstate the consequences of taking political calculations, however. There CAN be some repercussions for that, however, more frequently than not, such action is rewarded. No matter what most people say, the track record of unprotected mavericks (Congressmen that speak out regardless of how their state typically votes) is pretty poor. For all talk otherwise, people want representatives that represent them, which unfortunately means poll watching (though there is a fine line on that, too).

[IronLionZion]

22. I'm generally wary of all nameless, faceless, handles on the internet who tell me anything

and I'm also wary of corporate-sponsored, Republican-owned, corporate media saying anything about anything.

There are countless examples of DUers stating a candidate's position that differs quite radically form the candidate's own website. That never ceases to amaze me. The next guy who says Mike Gravel is for the flat tax,...is going to get his ass kicked so hard the water on my knee will quench his thirst.

I'm very interested in seeing what happens with the appropriations bill. What I want is for everyone in the US to know that Bush used his second veto of his entire presidency to block funding for the troops. The first veto was stem cell research. Asshole. The Dems better keep on at this to the point where bush capitulates or the war runs out of money.

So, who's watching the Repub debate tonight? I liked the Dem one. This is going to be rich. These guys with their divorces and flip flops trying pass themselves off as conservative! Ha! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18426777/