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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:10 PM
Original message
Hillary's Statement in OPPOSITION to the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill...
Edited on Mon May-07-07 01:11 PM by SaveElmer

Mrs. CLINTON. Mr. President, while I strongly believe that Congress should act to fix the problems in our bankruptcy system, I also believe that this bill is misguided and deeply flawed.

This bankruptcy bill fundamentally fails to accord with the traditional purposes of bankruptcy, which recognize that we are all better off when hard-working people who have suffered financial catastrophe get a ``fresh start'' and a second chance to become productive and contributing members of society. With the passage of this legislation, which makes obtaining this fresh start more expensive and more difficult, we are ensuring that many responsible Americans will continue to be buried under mountains of debt, and unable to take back control and responsibility for their lives.

Our Nation's bankruptcy law developed out of a recognition that the world can be a competitive, often unforgiving place. Bankruptcy reform should therefore be directed toward creating a civil society in which valuing individual responsibility is not incompatible with admitting the enduring truth that sometimes bad things happen to responsible, hardworking people. Sometimes, conscientious Americans need help and support against forces that are too big for them to stand against alone. It should be about making sure that both large corporations and individual citizens are held to the same standards of responsibility and accountability.

This bill is flawed in a number of ways. But I want to begin by commenting on one of its most distressing elements. As many people know, I have long been concerned about the burdens placed on America's families by a lack of health care insurance and by rising healthcare costs. In this bill, the Senate had an opportunity to take one important step to help citizens driven to the point of bankruptcy by unavoidable medical problems. Instead, the Senate rejected this opportunity to lighten the load on Americans dealing with the twin blows of medical and financial difficulties.

The Senate's failure to act is all the more striking to me today, because I must submit this statement into the RECORD while attending to a medical situation in my own family. Fortunately, my family is well-insured, and we are not in danger of losing that coverage. I am deeply aware and profoundly grateful for the good fortune we enjoy in having access to quality medical care in the face of significant medical needs.

And I know that many American families are not so lucky. Indeed, among those Americans whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, 75.7 percent of them had insurance at the onset of the illness. Employees with serious long-term illnesses often lose their jobs, which means they also lose their health insurance.

Medical bankruptcy has skyrocketed in recent decades. In 1981, only 8 percent of personal bankruptcy filings were due to a serious medical problem. By contrast, a recent study by researchers from Harvard Law School and Harvard Medical School found that half of personal bankruptcies filed in this country are now due to medical expenses.

In this bill, the majority simply refuses to acknowledge this current crisis of medical bankruptcy. It refuses to acknowledge that sometimes medical disaster strikes. ``Life Happens.'' The family breadwinner is struck down by illness, and the entire family's financial future veers toward collapse.

This is not a rare occurrence; we all know people who have endured hardships like medical emergencies that break the bank, layoffs, or vanishing pension plans. These are the people the bankruptcy laws are designed to protect. They are facing hardships because of forces outside of their control.

I support real reform that would hold accountable people driven into bankruptcy because of their own irresponsibility. But the evidence shows that the vast majority of chapter 7 bankruptcy filers are not spendthrifts who have run up ther--it cards buying luxury goods. And this bill primarily targets the vast majority of chapter 7 bankruptcy filers who have lived responsibly but are nonetheless facing financial ruin because of the unavoidable vicissitudes of life.

The world has changed since this bill was first considered in 2001. During the past 4 years, workers have sustained unprecedented job losses, endured termination of pension plans, and faced wage cuts and elimination of health care and other benefits as a result of their employer's bankruptcy.

Many of these bankruptcies have been the direct result of wrongdoing by corporate mismanagement. The people who take the biggest hit when big companies go bankrupt aren't the top executives, but the ordinary employees whose pensions and healthcare coverage disappear overnight.

In the last 4 years, the global economy has become relentless. Workers are living with more employment insecurity, and many have to retrain mid-career to adjust to the changing dynamics of the American economy.

We are now a nation at war. And at a time when they are carrying the burden of sending loved ones off to war, military families have become the victims of payday loans charged at 400 percent interest, insurance scams, and other forms of financial chicanery that leave them economically devastated.

Yet this bill does nothing to help these responsible Americans who suddenly find themselves in dire financial straits. In fact, it makes things harder for these individuals to find refuge in bankruptcy. Why is the majority committed to making things harder?

Many of my colleagues on this side of the aisle have asked this question and have received no real answer. So the bottom line is that this bill's proponents, while touting the need for bankruptcy reform and accountability, are willing to address only part of the problem, dealing only with the most vulnerable in our society, and leaving the reform of corporate bankruptcies on the sidelines, requiring no additional accountability with respect to our Nation's companies.

A number of my colleagues in the minority offered amendments in an effort to address many of these changed circumstances, but amendment after amendment was rejected. I simply cannot understand why the Republican majority gave instructions to its caucus to oppose any and all amendments, no matter how reasonable they were or the circumstances they were designed to address.

I find even more disturbing the fact that the majority refused to more appropriately address the special needs of our troops in the context of this legislation. I am baffled by the majority's rejection of Senator DURBIN's ``G.I. Protection Amendment,'' which I was proud to co-sponsor, and which was also supported by the Military Officers Association of America, the Air Force Sergeants Association, the National Association for the Uniformed Services, and the Enlisted Association of the National Guard of the United States, among other organizations. I can't understand why the entire Senate didn't cosponsor this amendment to better protect our men and women in uniform and their families. It is troubling and incomprehensible to me that most of my colleagues would refuse to vote for it.

And while refusing to support an amendment that would have helped military families in a meaningful way, the majority of the Senate had no problem rejecting an amendment that was designed to make it harder for millionaires to hide their assets from creditors, even after filing for bankruptcy.

Even though there appears to be a near universal recognition that the bankruptcy law contains a major loophole, one that enables wealthier Americans who file for bankruptcy to shield their assets through what are called ``asset protection trusts,'' a majority of the Senate rejected a meaningful amendment to close that loophole.

To make matters even worse, yesterday the Senate, again led by the Republican leadership, rejected an amendment offered by Senator KENNEDY, which would have outlawed unlimited homestead exemptions. This would have prevented the wealthiest Americans from avoiding responsibility by hiding their assets from creditors.

The Senate also rejected an amendment that was intended to reinsert language that had been in the legislation the Senate passed in 2001, which would have prevented the discharge in bankruptcy of all liability for willful violation of protective orders and violent protests of providers of lawful services, such as reproductive health services.

Even though this language was in the 2001 Senate-passed bill, it is conspicuously absent from the bankruptcy bill that the Senate is now considering 4 years later.

In other words, bill proponents, led by the Republican leadership, have called for additional significant financial accountability, but not if you are a corporate entity, not if you are wealthy, and not if you are an organization that a court has found to have violated the law and infringed upon the rights of others.

Almost without exception, the majority has voted across the board against these and other amendments, apparently under strict orders from the Republican leadership to oppose any and all amendments, regardless of whether the amendments were designed to help our troops, to remove loopholes for millionaires, to help families facing medical and financial crisis. This is the antithesis of the American and family values that many of my colleagues so like to talk about.

This legislation, especially after refusal, after refusal, after refusal to support amendments to improve it, is unfair and unjust.

In short, the legislation that the Senate is voting on today, could have, with more careful and good-faith consideration, been a vehicle in which we could have thoughtfully addressed abuses in

the bankruptcy process by both consumers and corporations. Unfortunately, the Senate leadership chose to go down a different road.

Because of unforeseen and unavoidable circumstances, I will not be present when the Senate votes on final passage of this bill today. But were I able to be here, I would vote no, because this bill is clearly not in the best interests of the American people.


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r109:S11MR5-0016:
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. You didn't bold the part where she said she wouldn't be voting on this;
Talk about your massive political courage...:eyes:
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You mean the part...
Where she says her husband would be in surgery the day the vote was taken and she wanted to be at the hospital...you mean that part?
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Stupid Bill and his quad bypass!
:eyes:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. stupid coronary arteries
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. Wrong operation
Clinton had bypass surgery on September 6, 2004.

The surgery on the day of the vote in 2005 was elective.

"Because Mr. Clinton passed an exercise stress test "with flying colors" - he scored in the 95th percentile for a 58-year-old man - the doctors considered the timing of the procedure elective."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/national/09surgery.html?ex=1178683200&en=f15a4b710953678c&ei=5070

"Clinton concluded that "it's no big deal.""

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/politics/09clinton_LN.html?ex=1178683200&en=fa602453f8c5c066&ei=5070
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. right you are ... except
Edited on Mon May-07-07 05:50 PM by AtomicKitten
In spite of the parts you elected to post to perhaps minimize the procedure, it wasn't exactly nothing nor without risk.

The condition for which former President Bill Clinton will undergo elective surgery on Thursday is a complication that occurs in fewer than 1 percent of coronary bypass patients, his doctors said yesterday.

The complication, in which fluid and scar tissue compress and collapse a lobe of the left lung, is not expected to recur, the doctors said at a news conference at NewYork-Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center.

Doctors not involved in Mr. Clinton's care agreed that the complication was unusual and did not pose serious long-term problems. All the doctors interviewed expected him to recover fully and quickly.

One heart surgeon not associated with the case, Dr. Konstadinos Plestis of Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx, said that irritation from even a small amount of fluid collecting in the chest after bypass surgery could lead to the formation of a layer of tissue that can cover the left lower lobe of the lung like a thick sock.

"That can squeeze the lung down," Dr. Plestis said.

The squeezing prevents the lung from inflating fully and causes shortness of breath, which Mr. Clinton had noticed. Mr. Clinton will undergo general anesthesia for what his doctors said is a low-risk procedure.

But when asked to specify the risk on a scale of 1 to 10, Dr. Joshua Sonnet, a chest surgeon who will perform Mr. Clinton's operation, did not give an answer. To free the lung, surgeons must peel off the thickened tissue in an operation that takes about two hours, Dr. Plestis said.

* snip *

In addition to the usual risks of surgery, like infection and bleeding, Mr. Clinton's operation can cause tiny injuries that let air leak out of the lungs. Dr. Plestis estimated the risk of leaks at 20 percent to 30 percent. The injuries heal, but patients are usually kept in the hospital until the leaks have stopped, he said.

Dr. William Follansbee, a cardiologist at the University of Pittsburgh, said that fluid and inflammation in the chest after bypass surgery could sometimes be cleared up with drugs, and that only a minority of patients needed surgery.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Yes, and it's understandable that his wife would want to be with him
Can you imagine: "Hey, Bill - your surgery isn't quite serious enough. I'm gonna have to sit this one out. Good luck. Let me know how it goes."

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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. OK
But there are numerous posts on this thread which say that Clinton's bypass was on the day of the bankruptcy vote.
That is incorrect.
The 3/10/2005 was an elective, low-risk procedure, not a critical bypass as has been posted here.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. as far as I can tell you are making up the "low risk" part
I'm in the medical field, and complications following bypass surgery are not referred to as "low risk," and neither did Clinton's heart guy:

But when asked to specify the risk on a scale of 1 to 10, Dr. Joshua Sonnet, a chest surgeon who will perform Mr. Clinton's operation, did not give an answer. To free the lung, surgeons must peel off the thickened tissue in an operation that takes about two hours, Dr. Plestis said.


I think the point of contention here is whether or not people feel Hillary should have been with Bubba for this. From what I can tell and considering you appear to be trying to minimize the gravity of the procedure, you would say no, but I know from my medical background experience that these complications are, in fact, not without risk and it was completely reasonable for a patient's wife who just happens to be a presidential candidate to want to be there with him. I would.

But I do thank you for pointing out the inaccurate perception; I just ask that you don't render it inaccurate in another way in doing so.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Umm, I pulled that from your post (#40)
It's the sentence directly before the comment by Dr. Sonnet.

"Mr. Clinton will undergo general anesthesia for what his doctors said is a low-risk procedure."
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. hmmm, that's interesting
And again you are right, but that makes me wonder if they were referring to the general anesthesia mentioned right before the comment you caption that is low risk because his cardiac surgeon follows it up in the next paragraph purposely not calling it that when asked.

Very ambiguous writing I must say.

Well, in any event, the bottom line is whether or not you think it was appropriate and reasonable for the wife to be with her husband for this 2-3 hours surgery, and IMO that answer is a resounding yes. Perhaps you disagree, but that's okay.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. Cut the shit. Had Senator Clinton been present and voted against it
it would have passed 74-26 instead of 74-25.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. Correcting misinformation qualifies as "shit"?
Sorry to offend you with facts.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. No. Trying to pin the defeat of this bill on Sen. Clinton is shit.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. Perhaps you replies to the wrong post?
Nowhere did I suggest that Clinton's absence made any difference in the outcome.
My only point was to correct the record.
Clinton's bypass surgery was in 2004, not 2005.
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. wrong thread...sorry. n/t
Edited on Mon May-07-07 01:29 PM by ORDagnabbit
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. But She Voted FOR Almost The Same Bill in 2001!!!
Wind shifted a bit...
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SaveOurDemocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Wind shifted way more than a bit ...

The world has changed since this bill was first considered in 2001. During the past 4 years, workers have sustained unprecedented job losses, endured termination of pension plans, and faced wage cuts and elimination of health care and other benefits as a result of their employer's bankruptcy.

Many of these bankruptcies have been the direct result of wrongdoing by corporate mismanagement. The people who take the biggest hit when big companies go bankrupt aren't the top executives, but the ordinary employees whose pensions and healthcare coverage disappear overnight.

In the last 4 years, the global economy has become relentless. Workers are living with more employment insecurity, and many have to retrain mid-career to adjust to the changing dynamics of the American economy.

We are now a nation at war. And at a time when they are carrying the burden of sending loved ones off to war, military families have become the victims of payday loans charged at 400 percent interest, insurance scams, and other forms of financial chicanery that leave them economically devastated.

Yet this bill does nothing to help these responsible Americans who suddenly find themselves in dire financial straits. In fact, it makes things harder for these individuals to find refuge in bankruptcy. Why is the majority committed to making things harder?



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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. She voted FOR the 2001 bill. Silence from the Hillary-lovers there.
As if it somehow doesn't matter that she initially voted for it.

:eyes:

Whitewash and ignore HRC's flaws all you want - but the facts won't be on your side.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It doesn't matter. The bill did not pass.
"Whitewash and ignore HRC's flaws all you want - but the facts won't be on your side."

Cherry pick and emphasis HRC's flaws all you want but the facts ARE not on your side.


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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. So? The Iraq withdrawal bill didn't pass either. Means absolutely nothing.
I'm still going to hold elected officials accountable for voting against the withdrawal, just like I will for the Bankruptcy bill.

Whether a bill passes or not is irrelevant - the votes are a matter of public record, and her vote was FOR a very similar bill in 2001.

Yes, it's great she voted against it in 2005, but there were elected officials astute enough to vote against it both times. Too bad she wasn't one of them.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. A Senator's vote only counts if the bill passes?
Edited on Mon May-07-07 06:28 PM by SOS
Interesting.
Does that rule apply to the Iraq War Resolution too, or just the 2001 bankruptcy bill?

edit: The 2001 bill did pass. It was held at desk.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Paul Wellstone vote for DOMA... and it DID pass
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. He also voted for the first Patriot Act...
And Barbara Boxer voted for both versions...

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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Great! Get back to me when Hillary contests the 2004 election...
And puts her own, SCOTUS-upheld Amendment into McCain-Feingold.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. So? Paul Wellstone isn't running for president. And he's dead.
Plus, if you read the book "The Conscience of a Liberal", he devotes an entire chapter to discussing DOMA and why he felt he was wrong to vote for it.

Plus, Wellstone's history has been one of sticking up for his liberal beliefs while still working with the other side. He was wise enough to vote against the IWR when Hillary Clinton was not, and he was one of very few politicians in either party who treated poverty as a major issue.

Try again.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. So, you're essentially saying because he's dead and not running for prez, it's ok.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. If you only read the subject line, I'm sure it would seem that way.
Many of us like to read the entire text of a post before we jump to conclusions.

Try it sometime.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. oh, I did read the entire text....
See, Wellstone backtracking on the vote in his book is akin to Clinton backtracking on her 2001 bankruptcy vote in 2005.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Sen. Clinton has a much more extensive "backtracking" record than Wellstone.
You don't even want to compare notes here - HRC's "backtracking" is much more extensive and well-documented.

Sorry we liberals had to jump in with our pesky facts and all.

:eyes:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. because, as you say, he is dead.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No, he had a 9-year Senate record. And he changed on ONE issue.
Compare that with Senator Clinton's 6-year record, which illustrates many more such changes in a shorter span of time.

Plus, Wellstone didn't change his mind just as he was preparing to run for president. His book was released well after he announced he wouldn't run due to MS.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. so he would not have chnged on the Patriot Act?
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I can't answer that because I don't know. We can't ask him, can we?
I don't like his vote for the PATRIOT Act, but if you noticed, that is not one of my criticisms of Hillary Clinton, because almost everyone in Congress voted for it.

The only one who voted against it was Feingold, who was my #2 choice for president until he opted out. I'd still like him as VP, no matter who wins.

Wellstone might have changed, I don't know. But he died long before changing it was being considered.

Not only that, Wellstone took a huge risk in voting against the IWR, and apparently expected that he would go down in defeat for it (even though the polls later showed differently).

I'll still compare Wellstone's record to Hillary Clinton's, any day of the week.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. no, because as you say, he's dead. So he has at least two terrible votes on his record.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Wow, 2 whole votes! Compare that to Hillary Clinton....
Edited on Mon May-07-07 07:56 PM by Alexander
It's like a cheetah outracing a slug. No contest at all.

And again, Wellstone wasn't running for president, and took a huge political risk on voting against IWR.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
71. in the eye of the strict eye of the beholder who finds fault with her dinner choices
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Dinner choices? You never stop making shit up, do you?
Please point to a post where I said anything about Senator Clinton's dinner choices.

I would also like a rebuttal to my (accurate) claim that she changed her mind on several issues besides the war very recently.

I won't be holding my breath.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
54. Actually, Wellstone had a nearly 12 year record
Edited on Mon May-07-07 09:22 PM by dflprincess
he took office in January 1991 (his first major vote was against the first Iraq War). But you are right, he didn't change his mind often and he admitted when he was wrong. I never understood his vote on the Patriot Act (or DOMA, but at least he had time to admit that mistake).

And, in 2000 he did his best to block the bankruptcy bill. Someone could have done the same thing with this latest bill.


http://www.commondreams.org/views/050100-107.htm

Published on Monday, May 1, 2000 in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune
Wellstone Acts Alone To Block Bankruptcy Bill

As members of Congress try to make it more difficult for individuals to erase their debts, they've run into an obstacle: Sen. Paul Wellstone.
In 1998, Wellstone was the only senator to vote against a bill that called for an overhaul of the bankruptcy system. Now, the Minnesota Democrat is using parliamentary tactics to stall another bankruptcy bill that has strong bipartisan support.

He called the bill "unjust," saying it would impose harsh penalties on families that file for bankruptcy in good faith.

While Wellstone's move is frustrating Democratic and Republican leaders alike, consumer advocates are thrilled.

"This is the most anticonsumer piece of legislation that the Congress is considering," said Edmund Mierzwinski, consumer program director for the U.S. Public Interest Research Group in Washington, D.C. "Without Paul Wellstone, it may have already passed."

"While punishing the most financially vulnerable citizens of this country, this bankruptcy bill does virtually nothing to hold lenders and credit-card companies accountable for their own irresponsible practices," Wellstone said.

If Congress passes the bill, Wellstone said, "the message is clear: Make risky loans, discourage savings, promote excess and Congress will reward your behavior by letting you be more coercive in your collections."....

Senate leaders from both sides of the political aisle are pushing the bill, which has been in limbo for more than a month. That's when Wellstone first held up the proposal by objecting to a request for "unanimous consent," which would have sent the issue to a conference committee for final negotiations.


This is why I'm having so much trouble picking a presidential candidate. I compare all of them to Wellstone and they all come up short. Though Feingold, I could have gotton excited about.



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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. You meant 1991, not 2001, right?
I similarly compare each candidate to Wellstone. Feingold and Gore are the only ones I could get really excited about, and to a lesser extent Clark.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Yes I did, thank you.
And, I caught your reply in time to correct my post.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. We need to get our terms correct here...
When a Liberal changes their position...it is because it has evolved through personal growth and reflection...

When a centrist changes their position...it is a crass political move responding to prevailing political winds...


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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Backtracking is backtracking, unless you support HRC, when it's okay.
I don't like Wellstone's change of mind any more than Senator Clinton's.

I would ask you not to put words in my mouth, but it seems that's way too difficult for you, so I won't bother.

Wellstone didn't change his mind immediately before a presidential run. And he only changed on one issue.

Not so for Hillary Clinton.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yeah you see that is where I think you are wrong...
I want politicians who change their minds when they realize they are wrong...or better yet, have been convinced to take a different position...this is a good thing...

Sticking to your position come hell or high water gives you George W. Bush...

I am a MN native and know what a great Senator Wellstone was. Not only was a a great progressive in the best sense of that word, but he was effective, because he had the courage to put his political capital on the line to actually make progress. He would make alliances with folks he disagreed with, and was willing to work with Republicans in the process. I remember Pete Domenici breaking down on a phone interview shortly after Wellstone was killed...whichs says alot...

Contrast that with people who take a rigid position, one they know will result in no forward movement, who refuse to compromise or reflect on their position. It is those types that make no progress...
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. But changing your mind, just before a run for president? How convenient.
It's one thing to change your mind. We all do it - I have even done it. Case in point - I was once a staunch supporter of gun control, and now I'm not.

It's another thing to change your mind on several issues just as you begin a run for the presidency. That makes me suspect one's motives, whether that person is Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney, John Edwards or Dennis Kucinich.

Paul Wellstone changed his mind, yes. On one issue. But he didn't change his mind as he was mulling a run for president.

Hillary Clinton not only changed her mind, she did so recently (much like Edwards and Romney) and on more than one issue.

Do you see where I am coming from now?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Which issues?
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. The war, for starters. The border fence. Abstinence-only.
And, of course, the bankruptcy bill.

On all these issues, she changed her mind recently - 2005 or later. Anyone who thinks she wasn't planning a run back then is kidding themselves.

Here's what she said in 2005 about abortion and abstinence-only programs:

"Research shows that the primary reason that teenage girls abstain is because of their religious and moral values. We should embrace this — and support programs that reinforce the idea that abstinence at a young age is not just the smart thing to do, it is the right thing to do. But we should also recognize what works and what doesn't work, and to be fair, the jury is still out on the effectiveness of abstinence-only programs. I don't think this debate should be about ideology, it should be about facts and evidence."

Uh, no, Senator. The jury isn't out. Abstinence-only doesn't work.

I understand why she's doing this - she is perceived (incorrectly) as a liberal and wishes to shake off that image - but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. only person I know who has done that is Kucinich
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. You must not know very many people.
Edwards, Romney and Hillary Clinton all did the same thing Kucinich did - changed their minds while deciding on a presidential run, probably in the hopes that their "new" position would win them more votes.

Wellstone did not. So your comparison is off.

Thanks for playing!

:hi:
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
65. Wellstone, Kucinich....
Throw in a Cynthia McKinney reference and we can forget the thread topic altogether.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Well it's great he did all those things...but
"I'm still going to hold elected officials accountable ...blah blah blah..." Oh wait, that only applied to politicians we don't like!!!!
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Nope, try again.
I hold Obama accountable for his continued votes to fund the war.

I hold Edwards, Clinton, Dodd and Biden accountable for their initial votes for IWR.

I hold Kucinich accountable for his poor display of diplomacy as mayor of Cleveland.

I hold Richardson accountable for the voting mess that took place in 2004 in New Mexico.

I hold Gravel accountable for his nonsense FairTax idea.

If you read my posts at DU (which I'm sure you guys don't, but you're welcome to any time), you'd know that I even hold Al Gore accountable for his previous views on abortion and homosexuality and his pro-NAFTA stance (and he's my favorite).

Your attempt to lump me in with Hillary-haters isn't working. Of the current candidates, I don't have a clear favorite. Even if HRC wins, I'll work for her and vote for her.

Gee, that doesn't sound like someone who hates Hillary Clinton, does it? :eyes:

My question is, what about you? If Hillary doesn't win the primary, are you still going to support the Democratic nominee?
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Tejanocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. The 2005 bill was Hurricane Katrina for those in need of bankruptcy; the 2001 bill was barely a fart
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. It was essentially the same bill
The 2001 bill passed, but was held at desk due to an objection by anti-abortion Senators.

"the conference report included language making nondischargeable the debts incurred from peaceful pro-life protesting."
Debts incurred by pro-life protest were exempted in the 2005 bill.

There was also a concern by the credit card industry. They wanted to eliminate all state rights to enact credit reporting laws. Also removed from 2005 version.

Otherwise it's the exact same bill.
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Tejanocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. That's not what my bankruptcy attorney says.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. Other than the two provisions
mentioned in my earlier post, the bills were the same.
Perhaps your attorney can enlighten us on the details?
What were the differences between 2001 and 2005?
No resource that I have seen asserts any difference other than the anti-abortion and credit reporting objections.
Arguably, the 2005 bill was even worse.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
51. why isn't she allowed to critically reflect on this issue and come to a conclusion
that is different over time?

Geesh!!
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. No one's saying she can't.
But the timing sure is convenient, don't you think?

:eyes:
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
76. Nobody's perfect, not even the Goddess of Peace although she's damn close. nt
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. Stop with the anti-Hillary crap! This is a very positive response from
her. That is all SaveElmer was saying; it is a piece of the puzzle and an important one. I cannot imagine being in DC if my husband were undergoing quadruple by pass surgery in NYC. Can you? But it is good to see the light and change one's mind. One (of many) of W's failures is his obsession with staying the course no matter how overtly incorrect it may be.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Sure, it's nice. But if you ignore her 2001 MBNA vote, you miss the big picture.
Which is that Senator Clinton made some seriously bad judgment calls 5 years ago, and later changed her mind. This MBNA vote is just one such issue.

To be fair, Edwards and Kucinich have made similar changes, although to a lesser extent and on different issues. Our side is hardly alone in this, and I'm tempted to call such convenient changes "Romneyisms".
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. you think this thread is anti-hiLLary?
how bizzare.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. It wasn't, til a DUer complained she missed the vote cuz of Bill's heart surgery.
And then the rest of the usual knees jerked...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
53. Thanks for the IP.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
56. Hillary only paid lip service in opposition to bill. She was AWOL for the vote!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3253782#3253807

Typical of Hillary of have it both ways! She didn't miss the Iraq War vote! Even if Big Dog had a quadruple bypass surgery, she wouldn't miss the opportunity to vote for war and earn brownie points with AIPAC. When it comes to protecting us, we come last in Hillary's book.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. How do you know what she would do?
I'm guessing she'd miss any vote if her husband was having surgery. She knows how important this is. Would her vote have been the deciding one anyway?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. The point is that she missed the vote on a bill that became law and hurt a lot of people
I can understand why Hillay would miss the vote and not move Heaven and Earth to cast her vote against it. Let's consider who the Bankruptcy Reform bill hurt, and who it helped. It hurt working men and women, and it helped the bankers. If the shoe had been on the other foot, I would bet that Hillary would have pried herself away from Bill to cast a deciding vote on the side of the bankers.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. AWOL = by her husband's side during heart surgery? That's an interesting opinion.
Total nonsense, but still interesting a Democrat would believe it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. When one is President, personal considerations are secondary!
Bill's life was never in real danger. Heart bypass surgeries are rather routine and very safe nowadays, particularly considering the quality of medical care available to a former President. A quality of health care that is not available to the working class.

Let's not kid ourselves, the Clinton marriage is just for show, so spare me the bullshit story of the faithful wife by the side of the equally faithful husband.

Speaking of faithful husband, did you notice that when Geffen spoke of Bill's reckless behaviour that he was speaking in the present tense?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. And if she didn't go, you people would attack her for *not* being by his side...
Edited on Mon May-07-07 09:51 PM by MethuenProgressive
Yes, I said "you people". Sue me. :eyes:

on edit: (You know, I might just switch from being an Obama/Gore/Clark guy and support Hillary. After all, you can really tell a lot about a person by who hates her/him.)
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. When I think you can't get any more pathetic...
Edited on Mon May-07-07 09:50 PM by SaveElmer
You manage to prove me wrong...

And it always happens when a certain someone you hate proves to be more popular than you think she should be. You see your worst nightmare again coming true - a successful centrist Democratic President...

And like the right wing religious whackos who scale new heights of irrationality when confronted with scientific truth...your defense of your intolerant brand of liberalism becomes even more shrill and sad...to the point where you adopt lock, stock, and barrel every freeper wet dream conspiracy theory

You seriously need a vacation!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Your only response to issues raised about Hillary's record and character
Edited on Mon May-07-07 10:10 PM by IndianaGreen
is to huff and puff. Prepare to be doing a lot of huffing and puffing.

your intolerant brand of liberalism

Yes, I plead guilty to an intolerant brand of liberalism. My liberalism is intolerant that liberals acted like cowards in giving Bush near dictatorial powers and a blank check for war in Iraq. My liberalism is intolerant that nearly 3,400 of America's finest have died needlessly in a war of choice. My liberalism is intolerant that nearly one million Iraqi civilians have been killed since we "liberated" them, and that 2 million more are now living in exile or as refugees in their own country. My liberalism is intolerant that a Democratic Congress refuses to bite the bullet and just let Bush run out of money for his war. My liberalism is intolerant of those politicians that go in pilgrimage to an AIPAC conference and callously speak of war against Iran and of "all options being on the table," presumably including the first use of atomic bunker busting munitions.

Yes, I plead guilty to an intolerant brand of liberalism that puts people before profits, and human rights above military might.

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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. So Hillary isn't Karl Marx - but that doesn't make her the Satan some here see her as.
"I plead guilty to an intolerant brand of liberalism that puts people before profits, and human rights above military might." <-I'm not sure that says what you think it does.

You'll vote for the Democrat in November of 2008, as will the overwhelming majority of DUers.
There's more for us to come together over than to squabble about.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. No, Hillary is not Satan, far from it. Joe Lieberman is another story altogether!
I tell you one of the many evils we see today, the pernicious influence of the Israel Lobby in American politics!
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Not waging stupid wars doesn't make you Karl Marx.
It makes you sane.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. You know what...
If you want your opinions to be taken even remotely seriously...

Stop bloviating about things you know nothing about...

Your irrational hatred of everything Clinton, diminishes any credibility you may have had...

When you claim to somehow know that the Clinton's marriage is a sham...

When you suggest Hillary Clinton was somehow out of order staying at her husbands side when he had open heart surgery

When you repeat right wing talking points practically verbatim in order to find any vehicle you can to attack the Clintons...

And combined with your expressed belief that anyone not holding the IndianaGreen view of the world is simply ignorant, and the fact that you do not have the skill necessary to convince people based on your arguments not to support them, out of desperation and frustration you launch into these childish tirades about their marriage and personal life, and make pronouncements about how they should handle the personal and medical decisions.

Makes anything else you have to say simply meaningless

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. LOL, this from the guy who calls HRC the "Goddess of Peace"...
It's safe to say any credibility you once had is totally shot.

Anyone who worships a candidate to the point of calling them a "god" or "goddess" is probably not very good at rational debate.

Surprise, surprise.
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