Its time for some of us (in this case CodePink) to STOP pissing off our allies

[wndycty]

It seems like Code Pink got under the skin of John Conyers (see link below) at yeserday's hearing.

As progressives we have no better friend in the US Congress than Representative Conyers, yet it appears in the thread below he is now being criticized for removing Code Pink from yesterday's Gonzo hearing. I'm all for blasting this administration as much as possible, however I have a problem when our tactics ignore decorum or political pragmatism and we become our own worst enemy.

Conyers is not the problem, he is trying to do his job as chairman of the Judiciary. This pisses me off to no end.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x27952

[donco6]

1. Oh boy.

:popcorn:

[shain from kane]

2. As you should know, "The whole world is watching."

"The whole world is watching."
"The whole world is watching."
"The whole world is watching."
"The whole world is watching."


Sometimes it takes a demonstration to make a point.

[wndycty]

8. Not when the demonstration . . .

. . .impedes progress in other areas. Yesterday was about holding the AG and the White House accountable. Sometimes understanding where one's agenda fits in the overall scheme of things actually helps that agenda.

[Bandit]

13. Progress....you must be kidding...

Hold their feet to the fire. Every last one of them ,no better and no worse ,until real change is affected...If it takes a specticle then so be it...A cheer for some of the real Patriotic Heroes in America ... Code Pink... Hip hip hooray...:bounce: :bounce: :bounce;

[ShortnFiery]

3. Then be prepared to be constantly pissed off because "Anti-war protesters" are not monolithic

No, I was not thrilled at the tactic, but as my mother would say, "It takes all kinds."

Therefore, although I didn't approve of this ONE PERSON from Code Pink doing this, I'm not going to paint the whole organization in a negative light.

Remember, in order to END THIS IMMORAL WAR-MONGERING we are going to have to consistently "Comfort the Afflicted and Afflict the Comfortable."

IMO, we're damn lucky to have the numbers turning quickly to the anti-war side so IT'S NOT TIME TO DISRESPECT ANYBODY. No, we don't have to identify with them specifically, but again, "It takes all kinds."

IMO, now is not the time to get haughty and self-righteous.

"Well I NEVER!" Yes you have ... at sometime, you have. ;)

[wndycty]

5. Its not about self-righteousness

Its about stupidity. Why the hell do the want to antagonize an ally like John Conyers? I know they were not protesting him but they should have known better than to try to become a distraction at a hearing he was chairing. I'm nowhere near self-righteous, I just want our side to win and to do so you have to learn there is a time and place for EVERYTHING including in your face activism.

[TwilightGardener]

4. I agree with you--decorum of the proceedings must be upheld,

or Dems will look like they're advocating a circus atmosphere.

[ShortnFiery]

9. Let me guess, you are too young to remember all the protests during the 60s of The Vietnam War?

It became really ugly before Congress paid attention. Junior High and High School kids in my area OMAHA, Nebraska were walking out of schools in protest. The right wing was haranguing and becoming all kinds of deranged at us "Godless hippie commie pinkos taking THEIR country down."

And guess where the Democratic Congress was? Just like now - they sat on their asses until we got in their faces and DEMANDED that we pull out of Vietnam. Further, don't let the "big Republican Lie" fool you for those republican representatives were also quite willing to extract our troops from that hellhole after they had their ears figuratively chewed off by their constituents.

I like Conyers, but he's OUR REPRESENTATIVE, not God! He serves us and needs to know that we are getting tired of *NO Articles of Impeachment* being filed when there is seemingly a mountain of evidence.

No, the continued Protests of this IMMORAL OCCUPATION will NOT be pretty. Therefore, if you are put off, then kindly stand to the side as the rest of us LEAD.

"Pretty pleases" and emails to our Congress will NOT have an impact.

Buckle yourselves in because it will be a harsh and vicious row to hoe ... in order to FORCE our representatives to merely do their damn jobs by standing up to the Military Industrial Complex.

[onenote]

32. I remember them. And I remember what was and wasn't effective

Effective: Mass demonstrations such as those that occurred between 1969 and 1971, with hundreds of thousands of participants, which showed the nation (and members of Congress) how widespread opposition to the war had become and helped turn sentiment against the war. It is no coincidence (imho) that the reduction in US troop levels, which started in 1969, accelerated in 1970 and 1971.

Not so helpful -- political theater by the Yippies, the closest thing to CodePink of the era.

Congress really started listening and pressuring the administration when people wearing jackets and ties, vets, and mothers all began visiting congressional offices and demanding an end to the war.

[ShortnFiery]

33. Again, it takes all kinds and we are hopefully a party of tolerance.

I suggest that some of those who got in the faces of the power elite did have a strong impact that you can not discern.

The political elites are scared to death of the people who choose to dissent.

I suggest also that it was "blow-up tragedies" like Penn State that served to highlight the desperation and attempted thuggish behavior of our ruling elite.

Did you participate in the 60s because my dad loved to rag on the yippies and hippies? It would just make me laugh as I recalled the protest song "Signs."

When right wingers refer to us as "dirty hippies" I wear the label as a badge of honor. Why? Because achieving social justice is BY FAR not a STERILE mass protest, but the cumulative acts of making those within the political ruling classes afraid that they/theirs will NOT be re-elected.

Signs Lyrics

(Arthur Thomas)

And the sign says "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I put my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine outstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that, huh, me working for you"


Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs
Fuckin' up the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign

And the sign says "Anybody caught trespassing will be shot on sight"
So I jumped the fence and I yelled at the house
Hey! What gives you the right!
To put up a fence and keep me out, or to keep Mother Nature in
If God was here, he'd tell it to your face, man, you're some kind of sinner



Oh, say now mister, can't you read
You got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't watch, no you can't eat, you ain't supposed to be here

And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" - uh!



And the sign says "Everybody welcome, come in, kneel down and pray"
But then they passed around a plate at the end of it all
And I didn't have a penny to pay
So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own fuckin' sign
I said, "Thank you Lord for thinking 'bout me, I'm alive and doing fine", oh

[ljm2002]

38. I remember too...

...and I question your claim that political theater is not effective. It does get people's attention in order to make a point. Do you have actual facts to back up your opinion on what is, or is not effective? Or are you just saying you don't like this kind of political theater, and never did? This is not intended as a combative question, but a clarification of what you are saying here when you say political theater is "Not so helpful".

Yes, most people will think of the demonstrating individual as quaint, or an idiot, or an asshole. But the demonstrator is only there to plant an idea, whatever it may be. Some of the most effective ads are irritating -- by being so, they plant the idea of the thing they are advertising.

Also, although you cite mass demonstrations as an example of an effective tactic, these days such demonstrations are covered only briefly, if at all, in the media, and are minimized in size. So they are not as effective as they may have been in the past. We have to adapt to a changed media environment.

And yes, the "people wearing jackets and ties, vets, and mothers" finally came out. What took them so long? What's taking them so long this time?

Anyway, I thought that Conyers handled it well. Everyone wins. The Code Pink person gets to wave their sign to the cameras, but is shown the door and does not further disrupt the hearing. It was all at the very beginning so there was minimal disruption anyway. And Conyers was absolutely right to assert control over the proceedings. Would that he could have kept the Republican representatives on topic for the rest of the day.

[onenote]

42. I'm saying that political theater, like that of the Yippies, was not persuasive

One can make the case, in fact, that political theater, as conducted during the 1968 Democratic National Convention, helped Nixon to victory (although nothing justified the reaction of the Chicago authorities).

Mothers marching against the war did more to stop it than "Pigasus" (if you were around in the 60s you'll know who Pigasus was).

[liberalKD126]

39. How do we go about that?

If e-mails and the like have no impact, which I agree that they may not how do we stand up and how do we go about getting things taken care of?

[ananda]

11. this is victimology at its worst

Divide and conquer.

Lack of decorum.. circus atmosphere?

Oh please.

Bushinc represents the very worst of decorum
and circus atmosphere.. and gets away with it.

[seemslikeadream]

6. heaven forbid

:eyes:

[babylonsister]

7. Our allies??? Who might they be? And how could Code Pink influence

them? Jeeze, if I lived in DC, I'd be right there with them, and I don't even look good in pink!

[wndycty]

10. Are you saying Conyers is not an ally?

:kick:

[babylonsister]

14. Of course not; if they broke the rules and he gave them the boot, so

be it. But he was more than likely not personally pissed off at them, and more than likely sides with them. So imo you're making mountains out of molehills.
At least Code Pink is there, visible, and doing something. That's more than you or I are doing to end this occupation, I'm thinking.

[jaysunb]

15. Aw...come on

I bet you'd look good in anything..:loveya:

[babylonsister]

17. Awww....

:blush: Thanks! I'd just pick a darker shade. ;-)

[Hissyspit]

12. Protestors demanding action and justice from our government. Shocking!

CodePink is non-partisan.

I don't have a problem with what Conyers did and I don't have a problem with Code Pink.

[bonito]

16. Both

and code pink speak for me.

[Adelante]

18. I hadn't been turned off before Valerie Plame

When they stood behind her in the hearings aping her. Before that, I don't think I had truly questioned the various protests. That one I thought really sucked.

[progdonkey]

19. I know this could sound really bad...

but the fact that it was a transvestite (who I later found out goes by the name Midge Potts and is a US Navy veteran) at the Plame hearing made it even stupider.

I didn't know it was Code Pink (as I had only really heard the name and didn't know they liked to crash hearings), so my sister and I were watching and just wondering, "What the hell is up with the guy in drag behind Plame? Is he a real transvestite who normally wears women's clothing and simply wanted to sit in the audience, or just some idiot who's dressed up like Jackie O just to make a spectacle? Or something else altogether?"

One of the earlier posters said that sometimes you have to do things "to make a point," but what the hell was the point of standing behind Plame in the hearing or sitting in the audience for the Gonzalez hearing with a "RESIGN" card?

Even when they don't have banners, their mere presence is a disturbance and distraction. Sure, if you know who Code Pink are, you could just say "Oh, that person must be from Code Pink; I can focus back on Plame's testimony now," or whatever the issue at hand is, but what about the other 90% of the viewing public who just saw a guy in a pink dress standing behind Plame? How many did like my sister and I and instead of listening to Plame, focused on the guy in drag and wondered, "What's up with that?"

[ShortnFiery]

21. OMG, do you have any realization of your OPEN discrimination against transvestites?

Instead of focusing on the REAL INDIVIDUAL's acomplishments, e.g. Navy Veteran, you hone in on "appearances." I have absolutely no right to correct you ... I only hope that you may later choose a little introspection? :shrug:

[Forkboy]

30. What a charming post

:eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

20. You are probably much more "put out" than Ms. Plame and her husband.

They've been suffering with this OVERT breech of justice. Therefore, ANY damn THING, including a Code Pink (uncouth :eyes:) appearance could only lend increased media attention to her appearance.

Face it, the M$M is shamelessly Fascist (the modern wet dream realization of their forefather Nazis like Goebbels) and will always portray anything that counters the Military Industrial Complex in the harshest light. Therefore, IMO, anything that can draw their attention away from celebrities, American Idol or missing white women should be applauded. In other words, with regard to media, ALL ATTENTION is GOOD ATTENTION because we have nothing to lose, i.e., the media is working for Lockheed Martin, et. al.

[Adelante]

22. Maybe so, ShortnFiery

I have no way of knowing if they were "put out" or not "put out." I didn't think Mrs. Plame looked comfortable, but who knows, maybe she was fine with it.

[ShortnFiery]

24. We will never know. But I have an impression that what she (and all of us) wants is justice.

I'll admit that I wasn't thrilled with it. It's just that we are up against such immoral and ominously wealthy ruling elites that I hesitate to become too censuring. Yes, we need to keep our most *outlandish* fellow demonstrators :blush: in check IF WE CAN ... but they are our anti-war friends ... only a little too zealous for comfort. :shrug:

[Adelante]

26. I dunno zealous

I do think opportunities might be picked a bit more strategically so the protests aren't diverting attention when we need very focused attention. I admire Code Pink precisely for the "outlandish" - it's theater and good theater and that works far better than some other actions. I just think the aim needs to be truer.

[ShortnFiery]

27. Again, the M$M is NOT fair. Decorum doesn't mean squat when you're protesting. n/t

[progdonkey]

23. but what kind of attention?

All they did then was give the media something to talk about other than Plame's testimony, while still being able to claim that they "covered" her testimony.

Instead of the only thing to talk about being exactly what Plame testified, they could spend the bulk of any reports talking about the guy in a pink dress standing behind Plame, protesting the war. They'd get a few digs in at the crazy leftist protesters (the fact that the specific person was a transvestite made it all the better, as the media that you so correctly castigate loves it when the protesters are members of groups considered outside the mainstream, be they hippies, transvestites, whatever), make a quick comment at the end, "Oh and by the way, Ms. Plame said that she was covert when the White House blew her cover and destroyed her career and a quarter century of intelligence work," and that's the report on the Plame hearing.

In fact, they're helping the fascist media by making a spectacle, being a distraction, and validating the stereotype that only the "dirty fucking hippies" and the like are against Dear President and his war. They're just as much a distraction from the real issues as the latest "missing white woman" is.

[ShortnFiery]

25. You don't get it. The M$M is already fascist and will spin us "dirty hippies" anyway.

You must not remember the struggles of the 60s. If you wish for true change, you must be willing to accept fellow protesters who make "the power elite" uncomfortable.

However, if the sight of transvestites upsets you OR you hold strict dress standards then IMO protesting is not for you. It may be best to stay at home and write your congress-critters. Why? There's always SOME exhibitionist types in every group. You don't have to LIKE it but it's uncool to denounce it openly. They're too much, but they are getting media attention.

Again, know this: The M$M will spin everything Pro-Corporations = Pro- Military Industrial Complex.

NO. MATTER. WHAT.

Therefore, ANY media attention is GOOD media attention.

*Dissent* knows no decorum or dress code, i.e., see Boston Tea Party.

[iamahaingttta]

28. I think Code Pinkers look like idiots...

...when they go into a hearing like that and act like circus clowns!

But maybe, that's just me!

[ShortnFiery]

29. I'm a proud Code Pinker ... Does that make you look like a Genius? (just teasing)

[Forkboy]

31. Whatvever it takes from every angle.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

34. Minor question

I don't plan to state any views for or against on this as i'm still considering all the pros and cons on their behavior, tho after reading all thats been written so far in this thread i do have one question for everybody(which would tell me a lot)

The question: Do you believe that the ends justify the means? :hippie:

[Forkboy]

35. Honestly,I don't think they do.

That's a very loose and hypothetical question so it's hard to answer in any concrete way.

I can think of the torture question about being faced with the choice of torturing someone who might,or might not,know something about an imminent attack.I may be in the minority but I wouldn't choose the torture option.

I don't think we can further ideals we aren't willing to uphold ourselves,and maybe by doing so,and treating other countries like equals instead of plantations,we can reduce the chances of those attacks.

And on edit - Welcome to DU!

[wndycty]

36. Is your ends justifying means question relate to Code Pink or. . .

. . .the country as it relates to torture. In the case of torture thats a big fat no. In the case of Code Pink its a nuanced no in that there is no indication that their actions in this matter have provided us when the ends we seek. Many of us believe the means actually hamper the ends we are looking for.

[Forkboy]

40. Thanks for adding a different perspective on the question Wolf.

:thumbsup:

[Bodhi BloodWave]

41. None, it was an general question on morality to those answering.

My personal view is that the end never justifies the means, as once you have started justifying it once it only gets easier and easier to do so on more severe things

hopefully the example posted below don't break any rules (not made by me, but i find it suits my views on this question quite well)

One is reminded of the man at a party who sees what to his eyes is an extraordinarily beautiful woman. Without hesitation, the man approaches her, strikes up a conversation and then asks is she would be willing to spend a weekend with him making passionate love if he were to give her a million dollars. She is shocked and outraged at the very idea -- although as she thinks about it... a million dollars! American money? And yes everything on the up and up here? Swallowing some pride, the woman reluctantly agrees, thinking of the things she could do with a million dollars. Then the man asks if she will do the same thing for Fifty dollars. The woman is genuinely horrified at this idea, and quickly replies, "Absolutely no! What do you think I am?" The man then gently notes, "We've already established what you are. We're merely negotiating the price."

[LWolf]

37. Code Pink is not the problem, either, and

attempts to silence them are not helping anything.