"Integrity is as integrity does"

[funky_bug]

Bottom line - I'd rather have a candidate that f*cks his intern, than an president that f*cks his country.

Nuff said. Next!

[cally]

1. Yep

but I don't believe this story. I think it's just a repub smear. It's interesting they brought this forward now. You would think they would have waited for this. I think they are really scared at * plummeting poll ratings.

:bounce:

[funky_bug]

2. I absolutely don't believe it either

but I decided to cut to the chase. We can run around in circles trying to prove or disprove this Sludge bullshit, OR we can ask ourselves does it really f'in matter?

[NicoleM]

7. Does it matter?

I don't know, I guess we could ask Monica Lewinsky if people care about politicians' sex lives. It might not matter to you or me, but if true it will definitely matter to a segment of the electorate.

[democratreformed]

11. It matters to me only in that

I had hoped for a president who was an example of all things great and good in our world. I feel sad to have lost that chance. Now, it's time to stop worrying about it and do what needs to be done to see that it doesn't ruin our chances. Whatever that is... I'm just a little inexperienced here. But, I will no longer participate in bashing our candidate.

[GreenArrow]

24. Monica mattered because Bill lied about it

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinsky." This he said aloud to the American people, and naturally, they did not appreciate being lied to. If he'd been forthright about it, most voters wouldn't have cared much and those who weren't, likely didn't or wouldn't vote for Clinton anyway.

[edzontar]

3. I am so disappointed that you have joined the Kerry Kamp

Not that I care about the intern.

It is that war vote that still bothers me, and all those people that are dead now because of it.

I feel that clark has let us all down by hopping so quickly to the Kerry bandwagon.

Couldn't he have waited a week or two?

[mikehiggins]

4. Should have, for sure. May be a mistake. May be something else

Only time will tell.

Hard to tell what's going on behind those unblinking eyes.

[bryant69]

9. Kerry's vote with neither a casual nor a neccessary condition

To the deaths of American Soldiers and Iraqi Soldiers and Iraqi Citizens. In other words, his vote did not cause the invasion of Iraq, nor was his vote necessary for it to proceed.

I can understand the argument that his vote showed a lack of judgement; but to hold him responsible for those deaths is irresponsible, in my mind.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[edzontar]

10. His vote APPROVED the war in Iraq and cleared the congressional

Hurtles that Bush needed or at least wanted to go forward.

His hands and his signature are on that approving and enabling document.

And no display of sophistry or apologetics can erase that vote.

[bryant69]

13. Well, dramatic aside

If you want to put the blood of those dead soldiers on Kerry's head, go right ahead. But I'd rather the bulk of the blame fail where it should; on the Bush administration.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[edzontar]

15. Bush gets most blame, Kerry was an "enabler "....

He let the country down on this issue when it mattered most, which is why I am having so much trouble supporting him today.

[HFishbine]

14. If Kerry's IWR vote was of such unimportance

Why did he vote for it if the consequences didn't matter?

[edzontar]

16. Touché!!!! Exposing the sophistry of this argument is almost

Too easy, but you did it much more effectively than I did.

Thanks....

[bryant69]

17. Perhaps he believed it was the right thing to do

I have to admit that had i been in his shoes I might have done the same thing. I reluctently supported the Iraq war on a couple of grounds; I believed like nearly everyone, that he did have WMD's of some kind (not Nukes of course, but biologicals or chemicals). Perhaps he believed, not without reason, that a show of force would force Saddam to reopen his country to inspectors. If doing so, he misgaged the cynicism of this administration, but that's an understandable mistake.

Looking back now, I think he made the wrong call, and at the time I was concerned by the abdication of power the Congress showed, but I don't find it in me to condemn him.

This is shifting ground I'm familiar with from discussing with my conservative friends. It sounds like you would like to hold Kerry Responsible for the deaths of the Iraqi people and American SOldiers and what not over in Iraq. I don't believe that's fair because he didn't cause the deaths nor was his vote necessary for those deaths to occur. So then you swing it around and respond as if I had argued that Kerry had made the right move in voting for the IWR, and of course, you also accuse me of sophistry. LIke I say, an argument I'm very familiar with.

But so we are all clear. I do not think that Kerry should be held responsible for the dead in Iraq and I do think that his vote was a mistake; but one that should be held up against his record in the senate and his record since then.

[edzontar]

19. SOME of us knew it was a lie then. SOME of us marched and

E-mailed to try and stop this catastrophe.

Kerry had more access to information than we did.

But he broke with Sen, Kenendy and other brave americans to support the Chimp's ilelgal war, and now all those people are dead and outr antion is a pariah in the world.

It raises issues of either 1. Judgment...., or 2. Integrity...take your pick, Kerry flunks either way.

[bryant69]

23. I know

I attended the marches in my community pretty regularly to document them for my website. (See here http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2003_03_16_politicalcomment_archive.html#200019455 and here http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2003_02_16_politicalcomment_archive.html ) I disagreed with their conclusions (although now it appears they were correct in many points. Funnily enough most protestors here conceeded that he probably had weapons of mass destruction, by the way) but was very pissed off at the slanders and slurs being hurled at the protesters by the right wing.

The integrity charges only works if you believe he knew what would happen if he cast his vote; he knew George W. Bush would push us into war no matter what. He knew that there were no weapons of mass distruction. And he voted for the war anyway, because of his presidential ambitions. I don't believe he knew those things, and so the integrity issue doesn't arise.

[HoosierClarkie]

29. I will probably join,

but I feel rushed. I wish Clark would have waited a week as well, but his message got out today because he was NOT a candidate anymore. I think he felt an obligation to the drafties to keep it out there. I have to have faith in his strategic timing. I do not think he does this for personal gain. I think he simply feels like duty calls again.

I have problems with John Kerry's vote as well, but it seems like many voters do not. They feel he was mislead like many Americans.

Clark was well received speaking to Kerry supporters and that felt good for me as a Clark supporter. I just hate that it took getting out of the race for people to actually listen to him.

(I felt that Kerry kept leaning in like "ok thats enough. I do not want them to like you too much") :)

[Cheswick2.0]

32. it seems to me Clark was given his orders

he mouthed Terry M. talking points and I was really surprized and disapointed that he did so.

[Tim4319]

5. I've been trying to come up with the perfect terminology ...

...to use to explain how I feel this president has done to this country. And, after reading your thread, I have now found the perfect definition!

Thank you!

[CWebster]

6. As a woman-

that is fucking his country.

The clintons destroyed the women's movement. Before Clinton they were principled and active. They got jaded, lazy and compromised with clinton's sleaziness. They were absolutely silent behind Carol Mosely Braun, they are disgracefully absent on almost every major ethical or moral issue of the hour.

[murielm99]

12. Wow! A brand new charge to add to Clinton's criminality.

I disagree with you. As a member of Planned Parenthood, and someone going to the well-organized March to Save Women's Lives in April, I think women are right on task.

We are working very hard to keep our reproductive choices.

What are you doing?

[redqueen]

18. Are there any women's groups that fight for equal pay? n/t

[murielm99]

21. I know of a couple.

Independent Women's Forum is one. AFLCIO also has a unit devoted to equal pay for women.

[CWebster]

22. Independent women's forum, huh?

http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipients/iwf.htm

[CWebster]

20. abortion

as if that was the ONLY damn issue.

[gottaB]

27. There's another lesson, making like connections

The women's movement got whammied by a vast right wing conspiracy. Senator Braun was among the first to go. NOW was unmistakably a target during the Paula Jones brouhaha.

There was a caller on C-Span this morning, an older woman. She said, paraphrasing, I voted against Clinton in 1992 because of Jennifer Flowers (sp?). I voted against him again in 1996 because of Whitewater. Then after all the millions of dollars that were spent investigating him, we find out there was nothing there. I was so mad. I realize now that there really is a vast right wing conspiracy, and it makes me so angry, I just can't vote for the Republicans again. I don't care if photographers catch Senator Kerry in a hotel room with some young woman draped over his arm. I'm going to vote for him anyway. (End paraphrasing.)

There is a vast right wing conspiracy. It f*cks with peoples' minds, and does far more damage to the soul than any old penis. Excuse me, but I'm not going to take it laying down.

I'm supporting John Kerry, and I'm 100% ABB. For my fellow travelers who have been wounded, or fallen, I have compassion. For those whose minds have been infiltrated, distracted, turned against themselves, I have compassion. The signs of suffering I see all around me only strengthen my resolve.

We will take our country back. We will not allow these right wing extremists to dominate us, or define who we are. The American people are slowly awakening to the insidiousness and tyranny of the far right. We have an opportunity to throw them out. If we don't sieze it, this Donkey will be forever kicking itself, and I shudder to think what should become of our republic.

Whenever you find trash talk that eminates from Drudge or hate radio or Fox, remember what's at stake. Know what you stand for. You can be darned sure that your real enemies know who you are, and what you might become, and they will stop at nothing to thwart you.

Disclaimer: As a man--

[CWebster]

28. Nice use of Howard Dean's terminology

And us Dean supporters have weathered far more for far longer and we still stand our ground, thank you.

[gottaB]

33. I have the power

and so do you.

I have the power of language, and I say it doesn't belong to any one person or faction, but to all of us. What I say, you can say. I take words, and I give them. Freely.

You're quite welcome.

[HFishbine]

8. When there remains a third choice

That would be my preference.

[mzmolly]

25. Integrity is as integrity does, and I'm still trying to figure out JK's

position on the war. This is not my FIRST integrity issue with Mr. Kerry.

[Toucano]

26. I love it! n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

30. those aren't our only two choices

but keep trying

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[MoonRiver]

34. That says it all!

All this Kerry/intern/reporter sexual rumor spinmeistering is soldifying my support for Kerry.

[edzontar]

36. Why? Base it on issues, maybe?

I don't even care about the intern--is it even true--who knows?

[TexasPatriot]

35. here's the problem with that...

see, if we have a candidate that f*#ks his intern, then we're going to have a president that f*#ks his country, for a second term.

If this is true, Kerry will lose. Right now, I dont believe it... well, lets say i dont want to believe it... but Kerry isnt helping matters by not summarily dealing with it. Bring it on means 'come on and try to smear me you you jerkoffs' - well - here ya go, John. It's either a smear or an indicator that you dont have the common sense god gave a toad. Now smack it down and get on with it.

[funky_bug]

37. Would you say that of Clinton?

He certainly didn't fit criteria #2, did he?