Obama Taps Youth to Help Make White House Run (tries to avoid "Howard Dean" mistake)

[jefferson_dem]

Obama Taps Youth to Help Make White House Run
Sacrificing Beer, Pizza for a Candidate and a Cause
By RICK KLEIN
May 14, 2007 —

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., is poised to unleash an army of young supporters across New Hampshire Saturday, in the first major statewide canvassing event of his presidential candidacy  and the first attempt of the 2008 campaign to translate online popularity into on-the-ground political organizing.

<SNIP>

"We need young people as part of our winning vote margin," said Hans Riemer, the Obama campaign's youth vote director and a former political director at Rock the Vote. "Our job is to leverage the entire campaign to effectively target young people, and get them out to vote. This is the campaign recognizing the realities on the ground."

Plenty of previous presidential campaigns have leaned on younger voters, but few such efforts have lived up to the hype.

<SNIP>

When it comes to knocking on doors, Obama campaign workers say they're going to be more careful than the Dean campaign, which took in volunteers from across the country and dispatched them -- with the orange hats -- to obscure corners of Iowa after as little as 30 minutes of training.

"Everybody realizes what a disaster that was, so we have to be a little bit more organized," said Riemer, the youth coordinator. "We'll be attentive to who we're putting out in the field, and try to match people culturally to where they belong. No orange hats. No alien invaders."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3172234&page=1

[Captain Angry]

1. Anybody know more about that mistake?

The article just mentions orange hats and canvassing.

Did they overdo it? What's the real problem?

[Kagemusha]

2. They weren't Iowans and were treated as insulting outsiders

etc.

[Captain Angry]

5. Thanks for the info.

That does sound like a bad idea.

[madfloridian]

14. They were good people with passion.

Why insult them now.

I will not forgive for this remark. Too many of us worked too hard all over the country to be insulted.

[tammywammy]

18. I didn't see it as an insult

I can understand the sentiment though, how does someone from Chicago explain well to rural voter in Iowa why they should vote for whomever.

I think it is a mistake to use volunteers from outside the general area.

[madfloridian]

19. Yes, it was meant as an insult. Mistakes were made...but there was passion.

and there was caring. I was not in Iowa but I know many who were. They know there were mistakes, but to be calling names after the fact is insulting.

Obama is off my list.

[tammywammy]

20. That's okay

We both just read it differently. :)

[Laurab]

43. He was already off your list, I've read it several times

why blame it on this, too?

[madfloridian]

73. No, Obama was not off my list.

Where did you get that?

We are right now supporting Edwards because all of our Republican family like and respect him, it gives us common ground.

[Capn Sunshine]

49. I didn't either MF

It was the consensus of our campaign post-mortem that too many outsiders did us in , but not in the way you'd think. We neglected the basic mechanics of Iowa for the front end of contact. Our enthusiastic stormers were good people, but they were good people without sufficient training to "Pull through" the votes at caucus time.

Our primary mistake was neglecting the mechanics of actual physical participation in the caucuses, which meant our delegates weren't sufficiently prepared for the process and stumbled badly in the organizational neighborhood politics taking place, since most were first timers.

I know you mean well, but you're so sensitive sometimes. Our Dean campaign does not need zealous defense; history will judge us as the crucible of a new movement and turning point in electoral politics within the Democratic party.

There's some excellent experience in the field for Obama, and they recognize previous mistakes committed by candidates gone by. They listened and learned. Most were integral in winning campaigns elsewhere in '06. I'm very confident in their abilities to position us where we need to be come Feb 05.

[madfloridian]

68. Capn, I take pride in my sensitivity in a world filled with tough guys.

I hope I keep that quality.

It was an insult. read the rest of it. They were "culturally" out of place. Gee, I could think of so many better ways to say that. Every word uttered on it was an insult. It was said arrogantly.

Where did I deny there were mistakes made? I did not.

But going after the ones who cared so much is inexcusable.

My, how soon we forget. The world has enough tough and hard and tough people.

Yes, indeedy, capn old friend...I am sensitive. You guys drove me away from one forum because I was "sensitive."

I take real pride in my sensitivity in a world which does not have much of it anymore.

[madfloridian]

70. I don't appreciate when you put me down for being sensitive.

I thought some things meant more than that. I left your site rather than offend you guys with my "sensitivity."

[calteacherguy]

84. What insult?

The tactics were wrong, that doesn't mean they weren't well-intentioned good people!

[MADem]

3. You need your canvassers to be local, or at least "regional"

You can't have city slickers running around in rural areas, or vice versa. You can't sell your candidate if you can't relate his or her platform and stances on the issues to the concerns of locals. And you need to KNOW the concerns of locals to be able to do that.

[Captain Angry]

4. Works for me, thanks.

I wouldn't be a good canvasser in a big city. So I can understand the reverse.

[Honeycombe8]

51. The Beanie Brigade.

As I recall it, there were lots of young people wearing brightly colored beanies, descending on the local folks. They did some good work, but there were comments among some of the locals that they didn't like it. They weren't from the area, they were aggressive, and they were very young speaking arrogantly to people who had double or triple the years and experience they had. That was just some locals saying that, is what I remember reading.

Have to be careful when approaching older, local folks. Respect and humility go a long way.

Reminds me of what my father-in-law told me years ago, when a new pastor came to his church. Here he was, a middle aged man who studied the Bible his whole life and knew it very well. Had belonged to a couple of different religions. Then the new, very young pastor comes in with this attitude that indicated to my father-in-law that my father-in-law needed some "instruction" in the ways of the Lord. My father-in-law said to me something like, "Imagine that. This kid is standing there, talking to me like I'M the kid. Like I don't know the Bible like HE does, even though the first time he'd read it, I was an adult and had been reading it for years."

[madfloridian]

6. No matter what one feels about Dean....Obama's campaign just insulted a lot of sincere people.

Those wonderful orange hat folks were not just "kids". They were people inspired from all around.

They were there because they cared. They were there because their party had let them down completely.

Was it a mistake? Not sure. More likely it was the behind the scene calls saying Dean and his wife did abortions. And other good stuff like that. Our daughter there got calls like that all the time.

"When it comes to knocking on doors, Obama campaign workers say they're going to be more careful than the Dean campaign, which took in volunteers from across the country and dispatched them -- with the orange hats -- to obscure corners of Iowa after as little as 30 minutes of training.

"Everybody realizes what a disaster that was, so we have to be a little bit more organized," said Riemer, the youth coordinator. "We'll be attentive to who we're putting out in the field, and try to match people culturally to where they belong. No orange hats. No alien invaders."

Thank you, Reimer for calling them "alien invaders". Thanks so much.

What an arrogant attitude, and what a rude thing to say.

I have just about damn had it with 08 already. I have no real enthusiasm anyway about it all anymore. I did care in 04 a great deal.

That will remain in my mind, that arrogance!!

[madfloridian]

7. It was an innovative campaign....the Dean campaign.

Since Dean is not running, and since he is chairman he should get some respect.

That was uncalled for, and that arrogant campaign guy owes a lot of good Americans an apology.

They were there because they cared about their country. They were not perfect.

Obama needs to talk his folks about insulting so many people. It has really turned me against him. Obama is far from perfect too.

[jefferson_dem]

29. We all appreciate the passion but the fact remains the Dean 08 formula did not work.

No need for chips on shoulders.

Were you considering Obama anyway? If i recall, you still harbor animosity for him calling out Dean for "using religion to divide."

[madfloridian]

35. Well, that was really stupid of Obama, but I had forgotten that.

So Obama wants to turn this into a campaign against Dean? Then go for it.

I just don't care enough any more.

Now I will have to look up that statement. Here were all the right wing using religion against us, and Obama says Dean is dividing us on religion.

I remember that well. Thanks.

[Laurab]

44. Obama wants to turn this into a campaign he can WIN

He is not insulting anyone, he is learning from their mistakes. That's a wise thing to do.

[Dawgs]

85. Uh, Dean lost.

He made mistakes that our current candidates don't want to repeat. Yes, the 'Alien Invader' comment was stupid, but it happens in every campaign. I'm sure many workers for Dean said some pretty stupid stuff as well.

If you people really support our Democratic candidates you would recognize how important it is to beat any Republican. Giving up on one of them for something like this doesn't do any of us any good.

[Ethelk2044]

9. I disagree

All will remember what happen and agree. The management on Dean's internet group could have been managed better. Even Dean will acknowledge that.

[madfloridian]

10. He called them "alien invaders."

There was nothing perfect about that Dean campaign of which I was a proud part. But it was new, and there was passion.

And I don't give a damn this year.

[madfloridian]

11. Throwing stones this early at good people who cared is not worthy.

Especially since he is not running. Someone owes those of us were active in that wonderful campaign an apology.

"alien invaders" my ass.

[Kagemusha]

13. All they mean is that inspiration has to be applied intelligently.

I mean, the Iowa thing didn't work out for Dean but, aside from the issue of blowing lots and lots of money, when it comes down to the canvassing, I have to ask... what were his other alternatives? Not even trying? Giving up and going home? Skipping Iowa? That's why I don't blame people at all for trying - though there are many others who do.

Enthusiasm just needs to be channeled to the places where it will do great good. Riemer could've chosen kinder words but, alien invaders is (sadly!) how the Dean canvassers came off to a lot of Iowans. That's too bad, because I completely agree, the volunteers were sincere people. But this far in advance of the primaries and the general election, a little intelligent planning is not wasted at all.

[madfloridian]

15. Well, friend, now the Obama campaign is alien to me.

You know I never said a word.

Of course mistakes were made in a campaign like Dean's that took off so quickly we could not keep up with it.

Shame on them for this insult.

[madfloridian]

16. And a lot of Iowa people did "get" it.

But they hated abortion, and there was call after call about the Deans doing abortions. There were calls about his Jewish wife. There was other stuff.

Of course mistakes were made. It was a new type of campaign.

Obama just made a very big one.

[Kagemusha]

30. I'm still giving him a chance.

If it takes a few more months to see if that chance is warranted, fine. I heard people saying Obama was finished, absolutely done, after insulting (their words) Detroit auto workers. Obama's finished an awful lot and dead to an awful lot of people lately. I don't think he's that bad a guy. But we'll see.

[madfloridian]

I have never been critical of him at all, in fact until today I liked him.

Today that sounds like an opportunist insulting people who truly cared about their candidate and their country.

[Kagemusha]

46. Maybe it is. That would be unfortunate if so.

Better is needed.

[ripple]

47. He was speaking figuratively, of course.

To the people in Iowa, the orange hats made the Dean folks stand out-and the sheer number of them probably gave an invasion-like quality to the canvassing.

Every political campaign looks at what has been tried successfully in the past, as well as what has failed. Dean's campaign was innovative and that was a wonderful thing. His strategy most definitely had it's successes, but some aspects of the campaign backfired.

I'm sure Dean is well aware of this and if he were running again, he wouldn't make the same mistakes again. In fact, I'll bet he'd even agree with Riemer's comment.

[AtomicKitten]

8. Obama is one smart cookie.

I am constantly impressed by the moves he makes. His appeal is universal and he is tapping into the resource of that enthusiasm.

Gobama.

[Tellurian]

42. It's high expectations for Obama..

and every little thing he does will be viewed through a microscopic lens. Maybe he can pull it off and maye he can't. How many mistakes he will be forgiven for is anyone's guess.

[madfloridian]

12. I have never posted anything critical of Obama...

I have never done that. Things change.

[illinoisprogressive]

32. I wouldn't worry. Fair critical assessing is fine. It's the trash talking that is annoying

No one is perfect and sometimes we need to discuss it in a grown up way. if he deserves critizism it's fair. It's the flamers, mostly Hilliarybots that are annoying people.

[madfloridian]

39. No. You do NOT call people "alien invaders."

It is just not done. You do not go back and attack the supporters of someone who is not running.

[Honeycombe8]

53. Arent' you being a little sensitive about that?

It was just a cutsie comment by someone working in Obama's campaign..."alien invaders." The workers did have a certain look about them that was different from the locals...they weren't just hats. Weren't they orange beanies or something? They were cute, but there were so many, all over the place. The comment is sorta funny and doesn't trash the workers. It wasn't even THEIR idea for them all to wear those hats.

It's good that the Obama campaign recognizes something that did not work, so it's not repeated, isn't it? But still, they are, in fact, using Dr. Dean's method of employing groups of young workers, so it's a compliment in that way.

I really don't see that it's a slap at Dean. There were some problems in the Dean campaign plan, as there were in ALL the campaign plans.

"Alien invaders." I'm sorry, but that's funny. There's room for humor, still, I hope. (They were CUTE alien invaders. I saw them on TV. They really did look so darn cute and energetic and enthused. That's a compliment. And they worked their you-know-whats off. Good for them. The Dem. Party was lucky to have them. And Obama will be lucky to get them, too.)

[madfloridian]

61. No, I don't think I am over reacting.

Dean is fair game for attacks, but I am sick of those who supported him being insulted so much.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3264599

[jefferson_dem]

34. Really? Were you not on his case for calling out Dean for using "religion to divide"?

Would you not consider that a criticism of Obama?

[madfloridian]

37. Yes, he took the side of the right wing against his own party.

The right wing was using religion against us, and when Dean dared called them on it Obama attacked him loudly.

Good job, Obama.

[tishaLA]

117. So I guess when you said he argued in favor of

privatizing Social Security, that was supposed to be positive? When you used a RW "think tank" to support your contention, that was not critical?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what constitutes criticism and what does not.

[madfloridian]

17. Let's give this a rec for all the "alien invaders" with orange hats.

Let people see the nastiness.

There were many mistakes. Obama just made one, too.

[Ethelk2044]

21. Obama is doing Well

I am proud of him.

[madfloridian]

22. Good for him.

.

[madfloridian]

23. In 2003 and 2004 our party was so adverse to passion and caring...

Looks like it will be the same thing now.

I have the video Take It Back..

http://takeitbackfilm.com/

I will watch it soon. I am just fed up with the way no one in this party sticks up for anyone else.

No one ever denied the problems. But the hurt was great.

"alien invaders" my ass.

They were Americans who loved their country, and like Dean felt like they had been led too far from what we were supposed to stand for.

[Connie_Corleone]

24. It's amazing how an honest criticism of the Dean campaign

becomes the reason someone is going to cross Obama off their supposed list of candidates. The criticism was correct. I remember reading about the reactions of Iowans to the "outside" volunteers in the orange hats. Dean came in third in Iowa for a reason.

That doesn't mean that the Obama campaign is bashing Dean and his volunteers. All they're saying is they're going to be more careful about how they will canvass the different states so as not to turn off the Iowan voters.

They're talking about a specific strategy of the Dean campaign, not the entire campaign.

If some people can't tell the difference between the two, then that's their problem.

[madfloridian]

25. Yeh, it's very odd how "alien invaders" is an insulting term

Many people cared enough about his campaign to travel to various places to do what they thought was right.

I was and am very proud to have been a part of it. Andt thought I never went to Iowa I was also considered an outsider in the party when I never was before.

That was a tasteless tactless thing to say. They were good people.

[tammywammy]

26. I read "alien invaders"

as people from outside the regular area. Just like if someone from LA came to where I live and tried to tell me why their candidate was best. And the funky orange hats were particularly appealing. But that doesn't mean that the volunteers weren't earnest and hard working, just "outsiders." They're not saying that the volunteers aren't good people.

[AtomicKitten]

36. it refers to the hoodie nation that "invaded" swing states

descriptive, flowery but not in a derogatory way

:)

[Connie_Corleone]

38. No one in the article questioned the dedication and hard work of

the Dean volunteers. It's just the strategy didn't work.

The term alien invaders might be over the top, but it wasn't meant to bash the volunteers. It was describing how Iowans felt about outsiders coming to their state trying to convince them to vote for Dean. Some didn't like that particular tactic.

If you still think the Obama campaign was bashing Dean volunteers, then there's nothing else to say on the matter.

[madfloridian]

40. Nothing else to say.

http://takeitbackfilm.com/

[madfloridian]

28. "alien invaders" says it all.

It was meant to demean a lot of good people.

Not a single person in the Dean campaign ever denied there were mistakes made all along. It was new and an unexplored field.

When people choose such terms, they mean them to be insulting. It is done on purpose.

[eridani]

45. The Kucinich campaign was similar

There were a lot of new ideas floating around about how to use those internets tubes politically--some worked and some didn't. I myself spent time writing letters to Iowa voters, which I have come to conclude was a big mistake. Subsequently, I've gotten far more involved locally, and am very selective about how I support campaigns in states other than my own. I don't think that a massive campaign of outsiders physically showing up is helpful--such assistance needs to be more effectively targeted to support roles. About the only nationwide volunteer strategy that really works, I think, is GOTV phonebanking, like MoveOn did very well in 2006. It's something you can readily slot in between local activities, and no one expects that phonebankers are supposed to actually know the people they call.

[illinoisprogressive]

27. excellent

[madfloridian]

31. Yes, it helped me see how things really stand.

It was good it came up.

[Morgana LaFey]

33. Oh, goodness

I hope he doesn't think that's all that impactful or weighty. It was minor and inconsequential, as campaigns go. It certainly didn't lose Iowa for Dean.

[madfloridian]

41. Here are just a few pics of those "alien invaders".....

that the Obama campaign said did not know what they were doing...

"When it comes to knocking on doors, Obama campaign workers say they're going to be more careful than the Dean campaign, which took in volunteers from across the country and dispatched them -- with the orange hats -- to obscure corners of Iowa after as little as 30 minutes of training.

"Everybody realizes what a disaster that was, so we have to be a little bit more organized," said Riemer, the youth coordinator. "We'll be attentive to who we're putting out in the field, and try to match people culturally to where they belong. No orange hats. No alien invaders."

Meet just a few of the aliens who made it into the professionally done movie about Iowa.

http://takeitbackfilm.com/unsung-heroes

And they went home and continued to work for the party.

And Dean is doing the same.

[wndycty]

48. This is going to shock madfloridian but. . .

. . .we used the stocking cap idea (this time yellow) in a campaign that I was involved in and I got the idea from (drum roll please) Dean's efforts in Iowa. While we came up short in the run-off, the yellow caps proved to be a popular tool and we feel they had a positive impact on our efforts.

MF you and I fight all the time and I know what sets you off, its criticism of Dean. That being said I offer up some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism: don't react everytime someone says something remotely critical of Dean. EVERY politician makes mistakes, every politician receives deserved and undeserved criticism, its part of the game. Just let it go sometimes, you'll be happier, have more friends and may learn a thing or two.

Pics of our stocking caps

http://naisydolar.com/vertical/sites/{B226BF1C-F8D6-4267-9858-9E2BC03234E3}/uploads/{5ADD3F25-B644-4A53-A828-4099E277DA69}.JPG
http://naisydolar.com/index.asp?Type=B_LIST&SEC={2F62DFA6-41E9-4106-8BF3-9A543F95A8C2}
The woman in the center is the candidate, Naisy Dolar, and she was always in her stocking cap.

Here is a video with some of our supporters endorsing her and wearing their stocking caps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f547bvaqWb4

[madfloridian]

71. It's criticism of the "people in the orange hats." Dean is fair game now.

Don't lecture me about it, please. That was a painful time that should not have happened.

It was insensitive and rude of the Obama campaign to bring it up.

[wndycty]

94. Insensitive and rude?

Politics at is very core can be insensitive and rude.

[ieoeja]

50. Worse yet, mad, this gal says Dean volunteers could not be trusted!

"'Obviously, it works better if they're in-state people,' she said. 'It makes much more of a difference if you have a candidate recommended by a person you trust, rather than a cold call from a stranger.'"

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/01/25/for_dean_no_storm_on_horizon_this_time/


This person worked for someone else's campaign, not Obama's. But she is also aluding to the 2004 Dean campaign in Iowa. She doesn't just call those volunteers "invaders". She implies they can not be trusted. So if you want to get pissed at any candidate it should be that one.

Read the link to find out whose campaign spokesperson implied Dean's Iowa supporters were not trusted. (Hint: she was speaking about her candidate's New Hampshire campaign in 2004.)


Of course, she wasn't really insulting the Deaniacs in Iowa. She was just talking about how a lot of Iowans reacted to Dean's volunteers. But then, so was Obama, wasn't he? So to be fair, we should have the same hyperbolic reaction to both candidates. Which will put you in a bit of a quandry. Given that the above quote was from Dean's spokesperson, must you now hate Dean for attacking ... Dean?

[AtomicKitten]

52. that's not the implication

... cold call from a stranger does NOT mean volunteers cannot not be trusted.

I don't get the martyr complex some former Dean volunteers have, but what is clear is much of the complaints about egregious slights are fabricated entirely out of whole cloth.

[rinsd]

54. The over reaction by some Deaniacs proves the very basis of the article.

If you guys on this thread are in anyway representative of what Dean had on the ground and in the caucus, no wonder he got killed.

[LizW]

55. What a hateful thing to say. n/t

[rinsd]

Yes, a reasoned response sans hyperbole.

:eyes:

[rinsd]

57. self delete double post

[NewYorkerfromMass]

59. I don't see any hate

Dean had a lot of enthusiastic but inexperienced people on his campaign.
He and his campaign made a lot of mistakes and paid for them on caucus night.
Later criticisms were met with all kinds of emotional defense as you are seeing here.
Emotions are fine so long as they don't cloud reason.

[madfloridian]

62. Well, my "reason" about Obama's campaign just clouded over

So just keep on with the insults, it is making it easier. We went through enough here in 03 and 04.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3264599

[Connie_Corleone]

63. Who is insulting you??

We can't voice some fair criticisms about the Dean campaign?

The orange hat volunteers worked hard, their candidate came in third in Iowa. Some campaign strategies didn't work well. It's good to learn from mistakes.

My candidate (Wes Clark) didn't win the nomination either, and there were very dedicated volunteers for him too. He made mistakes in his campaign strategy. Lessons learned.

All this taking offense and writing post after post after post about it is ridiculous.

[madfloridian]

67. This is about those people who traveled there because they cared.

This is not about Dean, it is about them. I was not there, but my heart was with them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3264599

[AtomicKitten]

56. I don't get it either.

Obama improving on Dean's strategy is to be applauded, not ransacked for an imagined slight.

[rinsd]

58. This is very good for Obama, for the party and for the country.

If youth numbers get above 14% of the electorate for the primaries and 18% in the general and Obama is able to tap into a major chunk of that vote he will have a tremendous advantage.

[tishaLA]

115. That's right. It shows how clear-headed Obama's campaign is

Some find slights everywhere, though, and have even erroneously posted here that Sen. Obama favored the privatization of Social Security, despite the fact that he never did any such thing. But some are often prone to unsupportable assertions like that.

[madfloridian]

77. That was tasteless.

.

[rinsd]

78. No, manufactured outrage is tasteless. Getting called on it is priceless (nt)

[madfloridian]

79. Your remarks tell me so much about what our party has become.

.

[tishaLA]

116. Well, some have said Sen. Obama favored privatizing

Social Security, so it would appear some stop at nothing to denigrate certain candidates.

[Dawgs]

86. Don't worry. I doubt many of these "Dean supporters" have any interest in..

supporting Obama.

[ieoeja]

111. Name two!

Of all the Dean supporters on DU (and there are quite a few), madfloridian is the only one to interpret this as an insult. The rest of us agree with Obama and Dean.

[madfloridian]

60. Glad to see this hit on Deaniacs made it to the Greatest Page

The one I posted in response to what good things those folks in orange hats are still doing....guess what it is just dropping.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3264599

This was a terrible thing to say about someone's supporters. It was a personal insult.

[Dawgs]

87. Isn't it kind of arrogant to take criticism of a policy as a personal attack?

Good lord. You people need to get over it.

As someone else said, Obama is taking a good Dean idea and making it better. No where in that piece did anyone criticize Dean or his supporters. It's sad that many think it did.

[madfloridian]

92. Yes, they made fun of the folks in Iowa.

.

[skipos]

64. I really like Dean, but you'd have to be pretty think skinned to take offense to this

IN MY OPINION.

Then again, I feel like a large chunk of DU comes here looking to get offended or angry about something.

[madfloridian]

65. Yes, I come here every day to get insulted.

And if no one insults me it breaks my heart. :banghead:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3264599

I was not in Iowa, but my heart was with them there.

The putdowns of those people who traveled there, led with their hearts, and made mistakes is inexcusable. It was a thoughtless gesture by his campaign worker. It was filled with arrogance.

[skipos]

69. Actually, I feel like your posts are often hypersensitive

and this thread is case in point, imo. Maybe you can think I am callous, I dunno. Again, you are free to think that this is an "attack" on Dean. I think Dean is great, and I don't think this is an attack at all, it is a critique. Alas, we will have to agree to disagree.

[madfloridian]

72. Pile it on the sensitive people .

Come on everyone 1 2 3.

Those were people who traveled long ways to get there. Attack the Dean campaign but leave the supporters who were in Iowa alone.

[ultraist]

66. Why is Obama insulting Dean?

What is the point of that?

Dean paved the way for HIM, Obama, (and all other candidates) with the youth vote and internet operations. A little respect and gratitude is in order.

[Connie_Corleone]

74. It's not an insult. It's called constructive criticism of a campaign.

The Obama campaign worker is just stating how they will do things differently so as not to turn off the Iowa voters.

Dean is not being insulted in that article.

There were mistakes made. We have to learn from them so as not to repeat them.

[madfloridian]

75. No, Dean is not. His supporters are. They are being made fun of.

So now go ahead and call me sensitive.

[Connie_Corleone]

81. You're too sensitive.

Your reaction on this thread is way over the top. Dean made mistakes, some of his volunteers in Iowa made mistakes. They're human. Stuff happens.

Calling them alien invaders is just describing how the Iowans felt when they saw the orange hat volunteers from out of state coming to their doors. It's not meant as an insult of Dean's supporters.

At this point in this thread, it just seems you want people to feel bad that your feelings got hurt by a non-insult.

[madfloridian]

83. Yes, I am sensitive. I take pride in it. I am not rude to others either.

If the very worst thing you guys can hurl at me is that I am too sensitive, then I am proud of who I am.

I just watched the Take it Back video. After this thread, I got up the courage to watch part of it at least.

What a great bunch of people they were there in Iowa.

I was proud to be part of it if even from a distance.

If this forum thinks a sensitive person is bad, one who thinks making fun of those supported a campaign with all their hearts....then I think our country has sensitivity problems.

So go ahead and call me that.

[tammywammy]

76. How is Dean being insulted here?

[madfloridian]

80. It's just his supporters.

.

[tammywammy]

82. I already know your opinion

I was asking ultraist how they feel that Dean's being insulted.

[Dawgs]

89. Where did OBAMA insult Dean?

He's taking a Dean idea and making it better.

Wait.. let me guess, you've really supported Obama.

[Dawgs]

88. Good for Obama.

[AtomicKitten]

90. I agree.

I continue to be impressed by Obama embracing the successful nougat center of Dean's phenomenon of a campaign (at first) and tweaking it to make it better.

:applause:

[madfloridian]

91. I am amazed at how the issue turned on my sensitive nature.

But I don't care. I intend to be that way. For those who did not read the whole article...here are some of the terms used. The campaign person could have made the point without being insulting to a large group of caring people. It could have been handled much better.

The terminology used was not necessary. It was NOT good for the campaign of a present candidate to bring up a past campaign in this way.

"what a disaster that was

try to match people culturally

No alien invaders.

They turned voters off

drew widespread ridicule"

It could have been said without the words of ridicule.

And to all of you here who turned this on me and accused me of being too sensitive....yes, I probably am. I knew a lot of those people.

I don't mind it being turned on me.

[MrsT]

93. I know two people who worked for Dean in Iowa

and were even there for the "scream." They weren't higher ups mind you, but they would agree with everything you just quoted and more. They were proud to have worked for Dean, but they were disappointed what a mess it was. It sounded pretty counterproductive in many ways.

[ripple]

95. He was talking about the strategy, not the people

This particular strategy was a disaster in Iowa. The Dean campaign was not effective with finding cultural commonality between canvassers and constituents, the alien invader comment was a figurative way of describing the perception of Iowans, they did turn voters off- as evidenced at the polls, and the ridicule was widespread once people learned of the canvassing method.

It was a disaster that unfortunately involved a lot of hard-working, dedicated people. I think most readers can recognize the difference between the strategist and those carrying out the strategy.

I am sorry you are upset about this, though. I know how it feels to put your heart and soul into a candidate, only to have the person lose. It's like death in a lot of ways- the grieving process applies.

[madfloridian]

96. The point is that it did not need to have been brought up.

I know just about all there is to know about Iowa. Nearly every one of us who lived through the campaign knows about it.

The point is not that we deny there were problems. I have not done that.

I am very upset and angry that the Obama campaign saw fit to bring it up using the very words meant to be painful. I believe that guy was with Rock the Vote, wasn't he? He should be more politically sensitive than that.

It was an unnecessary thing, it did not need to have been brought up using words such as ridicule and invasion.

[ripple]

99. That's what strategists do

How else to explain how some of the same mistakes won't be made in the Obama campaign, without pointing out the mistakes that were made previously.

Ridicule was an accurate way of describing the reaction of Iowans.

The invasion reference was an accurate, figurative expression of how many Iowans pervceived the canvassers.

Campaign strategists and organizers generally don't mince words. I still don't believe any statement that was made was false or intentionally hurtful.

[madfloridian]

107. I disagree.

.

[ripple]

112. Ok, then. I'll still tap

your half-empty glass with my half-full one. :toast:

Good luck with whomever you choose to support. :hi:

[bling bling]

97. Well the issue has turned into just about everything *but* the point.

The actual point was about Obama and getting youth involved in his campaign. The secondary point is that he's following in Dean's footsteps. The third point is what they will be doing differently from the Dean campaign in order to make their effort a success.

Your point seems to be with what some person on Obama's team said that you're interpreting as an insult to Dean's volunteers. To some degree perhaps you are right. That guy could have explained what he meant in a way that didn't evoke pictures in our heads that make it sound like Dean's volunteers looked ridiculous.

But I really do not believe that he intended to insult the people who worked hard for Dean. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because I think he was focusing entirely on being sensitive to the people who's doors they're about to be knocking on soon and he was speaking directly to them. He wasn't thinking how his wording could inadvertently be insulting to the pioneers of this particular campaign method.

[wndycty]

98. Its a lost cause. . .

. . .some have it made up in their mind that there is no such thing as constructive criticism when it comes to the Dean campaign. Simply put the easiest way to avoid this reaction is not to even raise the issue because some of Dean's supporters do not have the temperment to deal with objective observations of his campaign or his supporters. Its sad but its true.

[madfloridian]

100. The Obama campaign raised the issue on purpose. Why?

To get digs in and to sound superior? I don't know. The guy appears to be experienced enough.

The very fact that this whole thread is about calling me to task for being sensitive shows that there is more than meets the eye.

It should tell you something.

It was like the time that Obama announced loudly that Dean was the one using religion to divide. It was the Falwells, Robertsons and Bushes doing that...and Dean called them on it. Obama went after him publicly for it.

This was done by the campaign for a reason. Why? Dean is fair game, but supporters from 2004 really should not be by this time. It has been over 3 years.

You don't bother me anymore when you say things like this. I am proudly and openly sensitive, and I intend to remain so. Maybe more people should be that way.

[MrsT]

101. Madfloridian doesn't represent all Dean supporters by any stretch

She has admitted to being hyper-sensitive and is proud of it. I wish my "Deaniac" friends were posters here, as they would agree with all the criticisms of Dean's Iowa campaign. It is great that Obama is trying to learn from other's mistakes.

[madfloridian]

102. Madfloridian defends the orange hat folks and gets blasted.

While others who should know what she means about bringing up something from 3 years ago take part in it.

I think it would be very nice to just have a great pile on....send your friends along, MrsT.

Obama, he's the guy who said Howard Dean was using religion to divide our country. I wonder if he still agrees with that statement made earlier.

This thread is becoming a joke, really. It is a perfect example of how a campaign makes a mistake that is just as bad or worse really than the mistake they are trying to avoid....they insulted a whole group of people who did not deserve to be insulted.

And I am the bad guy. Hey, ok by me.

[ieoeja]

104. So was Dean insulting the Orange Hat people?

Was he insulting the Orange Hat people when his spokeswoman criticized the Orange Hat people, "it makes much more of a difference if you have a candidate recommended by a person you trust"? Or were they talking about a flaw in the strategy? And if that wasn't an insult, why is Obama's statement an insult?

Frankly, I kept expecting at some point to read you saying you were being sarcastic here. Because I find it difficult to imagine anyone finding Obama's statement insulting.

[MrsT]

108. Less melodrama would help the discussion

How did I "pile on" you? You admit to being hyper-sensitive and proud of it.

[madfloridian]

109. "melodrama" is another word often used to put down others.

Why do we do this to each other?

[MrsT]

110. Accusing others of "piling on" you when they aren't is a way of being melodramatic

why do we do this to eachother?

Priding yourself on being hyper-sensitive and then accusing others of "piling on" you when they say you are hyper-sensitive, seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Making about 50% of the posts in a thread, and then accusing others of making the thread "all about you" is a bit ridiculous too.

If you want to discuss wether critiquing Dean's failed campaign in Iowa is worthwhile, I am all for it. The first thing I think you should do is lay off the "poor me" or "poor Dean workers" angle though. Plenty of people (like me) worked for the failed Presidential bids of Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore and Kerry, and if people critique the campaign or the methods and training of the workers, I wouldn't and shouldn't be offended one bit.

[madfloridian]

119. There is a difference between critiquing and ridiculing.

Now, I am NOT the one who started anything about Dean's campaign from before. It was the OP, NOT me.

I objected to the words used like "ridicule" "alien" "invaders" and more that I posted from the article. I objected their use against the people who traveled miles.

If you see nothing wrong with the words used in the article over an event that was painful and happened 3 years ago.....then that is your problem, not mine.

I am appalled at how the good old sensitive madfloridian thing just keeps on being done. It is a truly amazing meme. One would think it would soon be noticed how overdone it is, but people have too much fun with it.

I could tell you everyone on the campaign who criticized and self-critiqued. I know every detailed write-up about everything that went wrong. I know what Dean himself said that many mistakes were made.

BUT.....that was 3 effing years ago. THREE YEARS AGO. The use of the words ridicule, alien, and invaders along with the "flourescent" orange....was meant to be a dig.

[bling bling]

103. Yeah, it's pretty much an exercise in futility.

But it's so mind-bogglingly ridiculous with some people here that I'm almost starting to appreciate the drama in a bizarre, amused kind of way. I almost think I would miss it if certain people threw their hands up and left.

[madfloridian]

106. Thanks for the kind words. I am not planning on leaving.

No matter how much my old friends and others ridicule me for my sensitivity. It does not hurt me anymore, I have been made fun of since 2003.

But the use of these words was not very tactful...from the whole article which most people have not bothered to read.

""what a disaster that was

try to match people culturally

No alien invaders.

They turned voters off

drew widespread ridicule"

Those very words were meant to be painful.

There was also a lot of good that went on there. We have a daughter and grandchildren there, and we got a view from other sources.

There were many people who were not negative.

I love the way you guys are talking about me as though I were a hopeless slobbering case of pathetic sensitivity.

[bling bling]

113. Oh dear.

You may be sensitive but you're just passionate about what you believe to be true. We all may disagree about what exactly is the "truth" but that doesn't make you hopeless slob of pathetic sensitivity. It's not just you, anyway. There's several people who jump on Obama threads who almost seem to be looking for any excuse to turn the focus onto something negative about Obama. It used to be frustrating to me and in some ways it still is, but on the other hand it's kind of fun, too, or at least amusing. Especially when it's the same predictable people who take a microscopic incident and turn it into such a big deal you almost start to question whether or not they're putting you on.

There are people here who have such thin skin that they throw their hands up and leave (with the "I'm LEAVING thread") anytime the going gets tough about someone they support. I hate to see that happen because it's the disagreements around here that make it interesting. I actually admire your diligence. You never put people on ignore or threaten to leave, despite the fact that you obviously feel persecuted directly or by-proxy to some degree on a regular basis. Someone who truly had thin skin couldn't handle that so it makes me think you have thicker skin than you get credit for or give yourself credit for.

Bye for now...

[AtomicKitten]

114. um, well ....

You never put people on ignore ...

MF has had me on ignore for quite some time because I have a low threshold of tolerance for some of the shenanigans that ensue such as highjacking threads to whine about how anything having to do with Dean is not respectful enough or on the other end of the spectrum how we can't possibly conceive of how horrible anyone or anything having to do with the Clintons is, almost always based on a misinterpretation of facts and a journey off-topic.

No worries, because there are always surrogates (sockpuppets ?) willing to inflict personal attacks in lieu of substantive argument on her behalf.

[bling bling]

120. I beg your pardon.

I stand corrected. I guess I assumed that if she put *anybody* on ignore, I'd be there by now so since I'm not.....you get the drift.

I'm glad to see that doesn't stop you from voicing your side of the discussion even though you don't get a response (ahem, at least not from MF) because your side is very often representative of a lot of us here.

[xxqqqzme]

105. '..."Everybody realizes what a disaster that was....'

It was such a disaster, they are emulating it. GMAFB

I went to New Mexico, from a very urban environment, w/ the Dean campaign. People were happy to hear from us, glad we were there. We could not have volunteered w/o a great deal of effort/hours from the local people. They did all the groundwork, we were just there to help them. We were teamed w/ a local volunteer and off we went. It was a positive experience.

Disaster my ass. If it was a disaster, they would be doing something completely different, not copying it.

[madfloridian]

118. It was a positive experience in many states for many people.

Thank you for posting that.