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Zogby: A Reality Check on the 2008 Presidential Races

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:41 AM
Original message
Zogby: A Reality Check on the 2008 Presidential Races
Reality Check on the 2008 Presidential Race
by John Zogby

First, an important rule for poll watchers: don't pay too much attention to the national polls of Democrats and Republicans just yet. Essentially, they are useful for measuring name recognition and are great for candidate hype and fundraising. Instead, look at the early states -- notably Iowa and New Hampshire -- because that is where the campaigns are most developed, where the candidates have pressed the flesh, and where some have even done some broadcast advertising.

My newest round of 500 likely Democratic caucus voters and 500 likely Republican caucus voters in Iowa, along with 500 likely Democratic primary voters and 500 likely Republican primary voters, has some intriguing results:

On the Democratic side, despite all the hype for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, John Edwards continues to hold on to a narrow lead in Iowa -- 26% to 24% for Clinton, and 22% for Obama. Edwards leads in the central part of the state and, most importantly for him, has begun to particularly take of among union voters. This is very much a three-way race and if Edwards should win, it will give him a bounce for New Hampshire. Clinton does well with liberals, with Democrats (as opposed to independents) among older voters and lower income voters. Obama does best among independents and in the eastern part of the state closest to Illinois. Importantly, while Edwards has kept his numbers since January, his two main opponents have grown -- Clinton from 16% to 24% and Obama from 17% to 22%.

Among Republicans in Iowa, the real story is the ascendancy of Mitt Romney. He now polls 19% to Rudy Giuliani's 18% and John McCain's 18%.This is shaping up right now to be also a three-way race. But Romney has moved from only 5% support in January to 11% in late March to his 19% -- while Giuliani has actually declined from 25% in march and McCain's numbers stayed about the same. In New Hampshire, Romney has opened up a double digit lead with 35% to 19% for each of his major opponents. Again there has been dramatic growth in Romney's support from 13% in January and 25% in March to now. Meanwhile, Giuliani's number have stayed about the same and McCain has dropped from 26% to his current level.

On the Democratic side, Clinton now leads by only 2 points over Obama -- 28% to 26% -- with Edwards at 15% and Richardson at 10%. Clinton's numbers have grown from 19% in January to her current levels. Obama has moved up 3 points from January, Edwards has dropped 8 points, but Richardson has moved the moved up from only 1% to his current double digits.

What to make of all of this? It is too early to project anything at all but for now, Clinton has not been the inevitable nominee for months. She has turned around on the war on Iraq but is still not trusted entirely on that issue or on her ability to win. And she has the misfortune of running her history-making campaign against both Jack Kennedy (Obama) and Bobby Kennedy (Edwards). Three in four Democratic voters in these two states (along with previous polling in Nevada and South Carolina) tell us that they are satisfied with the field of candidates. But Richardson's performance in New Hampshire indicates that either he or perhaps Al Gore may have some room. This scenario will not likely happen unless at least one of top three (or even two) begins to get tiresome. Remember, we have been talking about these candidates the way we normally talk after someone wins the New Hampshire primary. Can they all sustain their campaigns and hold voter interest for so long?

On the Republican side, only a bare majority of voters are satisfied with the current field of candidates. That explains the interest lately in Fred Thompson. But those who tell us they the least satisfied are self-described conservatives who are waiting for the "Great Conservative". And that probably won't be Fred Thompson. Meanwhile, we have another three-way race and Romney is clearly a player after his performance in two debates, his triumphant interview with Mike Wallace, and his money raising.

I will be back with updates and later take a look at the general election (Hint: do not kid yourselves, the two parties are at parity). Until then, this is wide open on both sides and interesting as all hell. What a way to kick off what will probably prove the be the most important election in at least two generations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-zogby/a-reality-check-on-the-20_b_48773.html


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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Romney's gonna take the nom--appearance is destiny.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Never happen
The Christian base will NEVER vote for a Mormon.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Beg to differ--their leaders will give the green light to vote for him
if they think he can win the GE. They don't like Rudy or McCain, either, and they are going to have to compromise--thus, the victor will be the one who LOOKS the most Christian (one wife). They want to stay in power with a Repub at the helm.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. You don't know southern Christians
They just won't do it.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. You are half-right -
if Romney gets the nomination, he will definitely lose some percentage points in the general election because of hard-core evangelicals who won't vote for him. However, with today's crowded Repub field, with NO evangelical standard-bearer in the first tier of candidates, I believe that Romney can win the nomination. And I'm with weinerdoggie here, I think he will win the nomination. Appearance is destiny.

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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. It's a LONG time before the first primary
McCain seems to sink lower daily; I believe this latest immigration compromise may be the last straw. Giuliani is sunk now that Dobson has dissed him (but he was bound to lose as more people learned about him). But that doesn't mean Romney will be the only one left standing. There's plenty of time for a lower tier Repub to catch on.

We could see Huckabee or even Brownback emerge as the evangelical darling. Or Fred Thompson could jump in. Or with the hew and cry over immigration, nut-case Tancredo could possibly rise to the top (altho I must admit that one's a little hard to imagine... but who thought a loser like GWB could make it?).

I just don't believe that Romney can win the GOP nomination. The fundy vote is too important, and they dont' consider Mormons to be Christian. A Wiccan or Muslim would have almost as good a chance of winning.

At some point, Dobson, Robertson and the others will get together and annoint someone else.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Huckabee could be a threat to the holy trinity. He did well at the
last debate.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. Southern evangelicals will NOT vote for a Mormon
Mormons are considered worse than your run of the mill non-Christian by evangelicals. If Romney was a Buddhist he'd stand a better chance of getting the Born Again vote than he does being a Mormon.
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Brassballs Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. With the "new" & "improved" rawMONEY,
Edited on Fri May-18-07 11:05 PM by Brassballs
the radical christians will prefer him to pro-abortion
Rudy and maverick McCain.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. I'm sure you're right, but...
There are a dozen other Republicans running, two or three more waiting in the wings, and MANY months until Jan 08. I expect someone more to the liking of the Repub base will rise to the top. If I had to bet, I'd put my money on Fred Thompson, or maybe Huckabee. But it could be someone else altogether.

But then, I don't believe one of our top three will win our nomination either.
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Brassballs Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. You are correct, they would favor Huckabee who is running
and Thompson who has not thrown his hat in the ring.
But it is still not clear if either of them would gain
enough traction to get the nomination.

Romney is very dangerous because he uses the TV real well.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Romney is dangerous.
If we have a controversial nominee, Romney may be seen as the safer choice.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. you have an irrational fear of Mitt Romney
:-)
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Confined spaces are also dangerous.
:-)
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. If appearance is destiny (my theory) proves correct for the Repub nom, then
it might also play in the general. Hope our nominee is Obama!
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. There is noting irrational about fearing Romney.
He is a bad executive and a nasty person. I live in MA and if he is ever elected president I would leave the US.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. I didn't realize that Hillary is running against.....
Jack and Bobby Kennedy. That statement is downright silly.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. "I knew Jack and Bobby Kennedy... Sen. Obama and Sen. Edwards, you are no Jack and Bobby Kennedy!"
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Well Jack and Bobbiy are running against Susan B. Anthony...
If we are gonna make historical parallels!!!
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. With all do respect to the great _F.K.s, I like Edwards better.
He is as smart as them, but with an ordinary person's background.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. some would say Obama is better than them
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I agree. What a silly statement amidst otherwise cogent analyses.
n/t
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. "Clinton does well with the liberals" ????
That statement truly surprises me. Would be very interested to know what Z defines as a liberal. I would count myself as one of them and Hillary is choice #5 for me.
1) Edwards 1) Richardson 1) Obama 4) Kucinich 5) Clinton 6) Biden
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Usually pollsters ask people to describe their political leanings rather than
try to define it themselves.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. don't know either
I take Zogby polls and always count myself as very liberal, and Hillary is dead last for me.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. Typical voters think she's liberal
Most of them couldn't tell you how she voted on the war, much less anything else.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is the reality
"Remember, we have been talking about these candidates the way we normally talk after someone wins the New Hampshire primary. Can they all sustain their campaigns and hold voter interest for so long?"
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. The ones with cash can.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. That's why we're so interested in who's NOT running yet--this started
WAY too early.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
14. The early states aren't as importent as they used to be
The primary season is going to be so compressed that candidates may not gain enough momentum from Iowa and NH to have enough of an effect on February 5, when most delegates will be chosen.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah. When Arkansas votes on Feb 5,
I figure all the candidates will still be running and on the ballot--a big change for us. When we voted last time it was in late May, and Kerry was all but anointed by then.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Back in 2000 Arkansans got to choose between Gore and LaRouche
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I know
in 2004 we had Kerry and Kucinich. All the other choices had dropped out. I did admire Kucinich for staying on the ballot.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. LaRouche was on the ballot that year too and almost outpolled Kucinich:
Dennis J. Kucinich - Democrat 13,766 5.16%
Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. - Democrat 13,528 5.07%
Uncommitted - Democrat 61,800 23.16%
John F. Kerry - Democrat 177,754 66.61%
Over votes 267
Under votes 19,419

http://www.arelections.org/results/44/elec44_election-dem.html

What is it with Arkansas? ;)
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I first heard of Larouche when I lived in IL
if memory serves, he won a Democratic primary and kept a regular Dem from running for the party. He's been a spoiler for years now.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Nope, now instead of the early states...
We can tell which candidates will do well by looking at their bank statements.

I mean, there is no way in hell an average candidate, one without the insane resources of Clinton, Obama, or Edwards, can compete in so many states in such a compressed amount of time.

One more thing for sale in America.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Could be just the opposite
Early states could very well be more important than ever. Even with all the money that the big three are pulling in, they simply will not be able to afford full coverage in huge states and expensive media markets. Free media coverage will still be important and could very well be essential. I happen to think grassroots could be important too, because you've got to convince people to turn out to vote.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
49. New York and California are joining the ranks of the early states
That changes the chemistry quite a bit.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm going to stick my neck out and make a prediction on the GOP primaries
Romney will take New Hampshire, but his lead will be very short-lived.

Giuliani will take New York and California less than three weeks later. Rudy is the one to watch.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Rudy has a good chance in Florida on January 29
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. I like your handicapping
Someone using sound logic for a change. If you look at the calendar and the delegate math it favors Rudy to the extreme. Even if Romney wins New Hampshire it will be a blip.

Republicans are not going to nominate a Mormon. I didn't understand that until I started posting on balanced political sites with right wing males as the primary posters. A significant percentage scream that they will never vote for a Mormon whenever a Romney thread shows up. Those same posters are lined up with Rudy.

Unless Thompson enters and changes the race, Rudy will be the nominee.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Awsi! You're over here! I never see anyone from Racing over
here or in GDP! That's all, just waving hi!
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. Big Romney supporter here! Guaranteed loser in GE.
I'm not surprised that Romney is leading in both Iowa and NH. He will obviously have problems nationally and in the GE in getting non-Morman/Christian voters, and he is a guaranteed loser to Edwards and Obama, close with Hillary.

Romney is appealling in both Iowa and NH. In NH, he has the regional advantage over McCain and Giuliani (who has been out of office for a while) but Romney just served as Governor. Romney is the most poised of all 3 IMO. McCain is the past, Rudy is a liberal RINO, and Romney will appeal to Fiscal Conservatives and Fundamentalists.

Romney also has the support of Jeb Bush. I thought it would be a Romney/Bush ticket. I think Jeb KNOWS Romney will lose the GE, and he wants to run for President in 2012. However, I think Jeb would also like Romney as his VP, due to his fundraising ability. Either way, Romney will never win the Presidency, he's more likely to serve as someone's VP.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. "the most important election in at least two generations"
Nope. Sorry.

The most important election in the past 50 years was the 2000 election. I seriously doubt anything can top that. I doubt I'll live to see a more important election than that one.
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Rwalsh Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
35.  A possbility I see is
no one gets enough delegates to win the nomination outright, which means our presidential nominee would be chosen at the National Convention.


Don't know if that's good or bad, but it would make the Convention very interesting.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
38. "her history-making campaign against both Jack Kennedy (Obama) and Bobby Kennedy (Edwards)."
Great line!
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. very cool look at the polls. mydd has another interesting look today.
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Ethelk2044 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I read it.
It is very interesting. Time will tell.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
48. The effort to shove Hillary down our throats has produced a gag reflex.
;)
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