Ecclesiasticus was a Liberal

[arendt]

Ecclesiasticus was a Liberal

I am all for getting religion out of politics. I think the best way to do so
is for every Democratic candidate to open his speeches with the Bible
passage below.

----

Ecclesiasticus 13:3-11 and 16-23

The rich does wrong and takes a high line
the poor is wronged and has to beg for pardon.
IF YOU ARE USEFUL, THE RICH WILL EXPLOIT YOU,
if you go bankrupt, he will desert you.
Are you well off? - he will live with you,
HE WILL CLEAN YOU OUT WITHOUT A SINGLE QUALM.
DOES HE NEED YOU? - HE WILL HOODWINK YOU,
smile at you and raise your hopes;
he will speak politely to you
and say, 'Is there anything you need?'
He will make you feel small at his dinner parties
and, having cleaned you out two or three times over,
will end by laughing at you.
Afterwards, when he sees you, he will avoid you
and shake his head about you.

TAKE CARE YOU ARE NOT HOODWINKED
AND THUS HUMILIATED THROUGH YOUR OWN STUPIDITY.
When an influential person invites you, show reluctance,
and he will press his invitation all the more.
Do not thrust yourself forward, in case you are pushed aside,
but do not stand aloof, or you will be overlooked.
Do not affect to treat him as an equal,
DO NOT TRUST HIS FLOW OF WORDS;
since all this talking is expressly meant to test you,
under cover of geniality he will be weighing you up.

...(skip vv. 12-15)...

Every creature mixes with its kind,
and human beings stick to their own sort.
How can wolf and lamb agree? -
Just so with sinner and devout.
What peace can there be between hyena and dog?
AND WHAT PEACE BETWEEN RICH AN POOR?
Wild desert donkeys are the prey of lions;
SO TOO, THE POOR IS THE QUARRY OF THE RICH.
The proud thinks humility abhorrent;
so too, the rich abominates the poor.
When the rich stumbles he is supported by friends;
when the poor falls, his friends push him away.
When the rich slips, there are many hands to catch him,
IF HE TALKS NONSENSE HE IS CONGRATULATED.
The poor slips, and is blamed for it,
he may talk good sense, but no room is made for him.
THE RICH SPEAKS AND EVERYONE STOPS TALKING,
AND THEN THEY PRAISE HIS DISCOURSE TO THE SKIES.
THE POOR SPEAKS AND PEOPLE SAY 'WHO IS THIS?'
and if he stumbles, they trip him up yet more.

----

"The New Jerusalem Bible, Reader's Edition", 1990.
ISBN 0-385-24833-4

This Bible has a "Nihil obstat and Imprimatur", but I think it
is Anglican.

[WCGreen]

1. Very good idea....

[Bullet1987]

2. What the religious right don't get is...

...that the Bible was written by anti-Roman Jews. They hated elitism and were strong supporters of the poor and disadvantaged. This is one of the main arguments of Liberation Theology. It takes the position that Jesus wasn't just the Redeemer, but a Liberator of the Oppressed. Too many followers of Falwell and the authoritarian Right are picking and choosing what they want to believe.

[Gregorian]

3. It's ironic that conservatives would latch on to a book that is totally liberal.

There isn't a single conservative view in the bible. Am I wrong?

The root of all evil is the love of money.

Love thy enemy.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


How on earth did these jerks get so confused? Of course, we all know the answer to that. Greed and fear.


Also, there is something about the passage you chose that reminds us that literally nothing has changed in thousands of years. I find that rather informative.

[Igel]

5. I think many can't properly deal with

"'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." This I agree with; I don't like it when the rich get off because they have good lawyers and the poor don't because they have bad lawyers--but I also don't assume that the poor should get any leniency because of their poverty, or the rich dealt with any more harshly because they're rich.

Thirsting after righteousness is a bit of a problem, too, for liberals *and* conservatives; both like making it up as they go. Loving our enemies--necessarily taken to be in-group enemies, for the most part--is a bit of a problem, too. Do you love Wolfowitz? Not getting revenge is tough. Hell, not judging is even harder. Yet many liberals seemed to relish another person's death, obviously hating the individual; those saying to hush up were insulted.

Ecclesiasticus takes the rich to task; it basically says the rich should help the poor, and there is no difference in dignity and worth between the rich and the poor. Most conservatives and liberals flub that, rather badly--some preach the rich are evil, others that the rich are great. Jesus said the poor were more likely to be blessed because they were *humble*--remove humility, and you get nothing. As for helping the poor, many conservatives and liberals do; many do not, and some decide that their great virtue will be to force others to help the poor. In so doing, they play at Grand Inquisitor.

Projecting 19th century (and some 20th century) thought to a different culture before 300 BC is a risky business. It's hard to apply 'liberal' to modern Russian or Polish politics.

[Gregorian]

9. I love your reply.

Such broad and wise thinking.

I do think that humility is an accurate measuring stick. In fact, it's Ronald Reagan's sense of true humility that I think won him that election. Humble people were fooled by it.

And love thy enemy is perhaps the least understood phrase in all of human thought. But I do think that humility has something to do with it. Trying to understand. If I were to really understand Wolfowitz, I would probably find something to love. I can imagine that his mechanism for coping with his fears may be the reasoning behind the evil things he has done. So perhaps the first step toward loving is understanding. And it makes sense since hatred is the easiest path to take. We have to step back and be patient in order to avoid hating.

I have failed in most ways. But I am trying.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. It's all right here....

The direct Biblical references are not visible..They were enclosed in brackets in the original...

http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/

Welcome to "Jesus is a Liberal"

We created this website because we believe the historical, Biblically documented teachings of Jesus
Christ clearly show that Jesus is a Liberal. His philosophy, based in compassion, equality,
inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace and - most importantly - love, is 100% Liberal.

For 20 years we have seen the growing domination of the radical right wing evangelicals on TV, on
the radio and in the news, newspapers and magazines and in politics - claiming to own a virtual
monopoly on Jesus. They have redefined what He meant and used His name to advance their
radical right wing social, business, governmental, political and military agenda - or as President
Bush calls it their just and righteous Crusade. We strongly object and disagree.

We reflect the views of over 150 million Liberal, Progressive, Tolerant and Independent thinking
Christians, Catholics, and others of all spiritual paths, religions and traditions in the USA and
Canada. Together, we reject the radical right wing Republican evangelicals' claims that they alone
represent the will, expression and blessing of Jesus Christ. We believe it is high time someone
stand up for the Liberal, Progressive, Tolerant and Independent thinking majority's position that any
plain reading of His words, any genuine interpretation of His intent, outline a Liberal, Progressive,
Tolerant, Loving and holistic world view.

Our Mission is to promote the Integral Koan (TM), holistic meme, and the original belief and
understanding that Jesus IS a Liberal, and to their very core His teachings outline a Liberal,
Progressive, Tolerant, Loving, open minded, holistic, and sustainable vision for our World.

<snip>

Biblical Quotes Supporting the Belief that Jesus Is A Liberal

Peacemaking, not War Making: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Resist
not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute
you;

The Death Penalty: Thou shalt not kill

Crime and Punishment: If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone at her. Do not judge, lest
you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you.

Justice: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the
merciful: for they shall obtain mercy But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your
trespasses.

Corporate Greed and the Religion of Wealth: In the temple courts found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other
sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle;
he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Watch out! Be on your guard against
all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. Truly, I say unto you, it will
be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Paying Taxes & Separation of Church & State: Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the
things that are God's.

Community: Love your neighbor as yourself. . So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you.
If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.


Equality & Social Programs: But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed,
because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

Public Prayer & Displays of Faith: And when thou pray, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in
the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou pray, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret…


Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws: If any of you has a son or a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take
hold of it and lift it out? The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Individuality & Personal Spiritual Experience: Ye are the light of the world.

much more at the link...

[arendt]

6. Thanks for the link. But, back to my original point, why don't Dems use this stuff?

As you say, there are thousands of quotes.

The Dems can't say they are "afraid of blurring the line between Church and State"
when they already are pandering as hard as they can to the religious nutcases.

With these quotes, a Dem could, at minimum, bring the total hypocrisy of the
religious right out into the open. With these quotes, it would be impossible to
claim that "all religious people believe..."

So, why haven't any of the Democrats used this approach?

arendt

[BrklynLiberal]

11. You are right. The only places I have heard this is in Sojourners Mag and

from Reverend Welton Gaddy who did..not sure if it is still on Air America.. a show called "State of Belief".

Both EXCELLENT sources for indicating that Jesus was liberal and those who take his teachings seriously should also be liberals.

He is still on ..
Saturdays 10-11 AM
Sundays 7-8 PM
that's EDT
A link from the Interfaith Alliance site.
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/apps/nl/newsletter2.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=1851255
a link from Air AMerica
http://www.airamerica.com/stateofbelief/node?from=40

The Interfaith Alliance is another way to unite and get the word out.
They do alot of EXCELLENT work. More candidates should use them.
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

A link to Sojourners Magazine.


ALso Jim Wallis is a good spokesperson for liberal Religion.
Of course, the media is more enthralled with the fire and brimstone screamers of the far right, so you don't hear that much about him unless you listen to the correct/left leaning media sources.
http://www.sojo.net/

[arendt]

10. Adding Ecclesiasticus to the NT quotes from Jesus shows that we can "cut and paste"...

from the Bible as well as the fundies.

Of course, we are never going to get the fundies to admit they were wrong.
But, we can put an alternative message out there for religious people, to say
that your choice isn't between God and Atheism, but between compassionate
religion and brutal insanity.

Anyone know of a webiste that does for the OT what "Jesus is a liberal" does
for the NT?

arendt

[BrklynLiberal]

12. Here might be a place to start...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_st.htm


What they are about...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/statbelief.htm


I will see if there are more.

[BrklynLiberal]

15. Liberal Theology....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity


A bibliography on the growth of liberal theology..
http://www.bartleby.com/222/1300.html

A very interestng collection of books
http://www.amazon.com/Making-American-Liberal-Theology-Modernity/dp/0664223559

[arendt]

19. Thank you for all the links. I will check them out. n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

Liberation Theology

http://www.mustardseed.net/html/toliberation.html

[sandnsea]

7. when the poor falls, his friends push him away

And they do that because they're afraid the rich (their bosses) will push them away if they stand by their friends. That's how you end up with people voting against their best interests.

[Tejanocrat]

8. The Bible has over 200 references to helping the poor, including 40 passages attributed to Jesus.

Here's a sample:

Luke 4:18 - "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

Luke 6:20-25 - Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. ... But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry."

Luke 12:33 - "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."

1 John 3:17-18 – "How does God’s love abide in anyone who has the world’s goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help? Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action."

I'm still trying to find the part of the Bible that talks about banning dilation and extraction abortion procedures and gay marriages; if I find them, I'll update this post.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Here is a good essay from right here on DU ..from 2002

IN DEFENSE OF THE CHRISTIAN LIBERAL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/10/12_christian.html

[More Than A Feeling]

14. How does quoting the Bible get religion out of politics?

Using the Bible as an authority in politics would seem to have the opposite effect.

[arendt]

18. Its like the Daily Show or Colbert - you deliver it in mock seriousness...

Like you speak it, you ask "what pinko liberal wrote this?", and then you say
"oh, its in the Old Testament. Duh. I guess you guys don't read your own
book."

You can treat the text like any other quotation that the other side "honors in
the breach". Except that their misuse of the Bible is at the heart of their delusion.

Directly to your point, I believe we MUST quote the Bible in order to get it out
of politics. We must quote ONLY those parts that support promoting the CIVIL
authority. Then, when confronted, we say "you quote the part you want, we will
quote the part we want. It is your side that started cherry picking the quotes.
It is your side that turned a spiritual book into a political weapon."

The worst case is nothing worse than we are already facing - the total politicization
of Christian religion. And, actually, if we are quoting our part of the Bible in that
worst case, we are fighting back harder than we are today against this sickos.

arendt

[TnDem]

16. Ecclesiasticus is not "inspired" scripture...

This book is considered part of the Apocrypha or non-inspired scripture by Fundamentalists. It is joined by other such books as 1st Maccabees and 2nd Maccabees as well as "Bel and the Dragon", etc..

None of these books are in any versions of the recognized Holy Bible except for the Catholic Bible which is considered Damnable doctrine by most Protestants.

[arendt]

20. That's great. So, the speechifying politico can seque into "who's bible?" and ...

which version of Christianity the fundies want running our country. From there,
its a hop, skip, and burning at the stake to the Thirty Years War.

arendt

[nealmhughes]

17. The New Jerusalem is a Catholic Church endorsed Bible.

Anglicans usually use the King James for Rite I and Revised Standard for Rite II for English versions and liturgies. The BCP has its own translations of many of the Psalms. I'm not sure what versions that the Church uses in Asia, Latin America and Africa or non-English speaking Oceania.

[arendt]

21. Thanks for the info. I didn't think the Anglicans went in for "nihil obstat". n/t

[LeftishBrit]

22. Good to find another 'Ecclesiasticus fan' here!

As a complete atheist, I still find some of the words an excellent code of conduct:


My son, defraud not the poor of his living, and make not the needy eyes to wait long.

Sir 4:2
Make not an hungry soul sorrowful; neither provoke a man in his distress.

Sir 4:3
Add not more trouble to an heart that is vexed; and defer not to give to him that is in need.

Sir 4:4
Reject not the supplication of the afflicted; neither turn away thy face from a poor man.

Sir 4:5
Turn not away thine eye from the needy, and give him none occasion to curse thee:

Sir 4:6
For if he curse thee in the bitterness of his soul, his prayer shall be heard of him that made him.

S
Sir 4:20
Observe the opportunity, and beware of evil; and be not ashamed when it concerneth thy soul.

Sir 4:21
For there is a shame that bringeth sin; and there is a shame which is glory and grace.

Sir 4:22
Accept no person against thy soul, and let not the reverence of any man cause thee to fall.

Sir 4:23
And refrain not to speak, when there is occasion to do good, and hide not thy wisdom in her beauty.

Sir 4:24
For by speech wisdom shall be known: and learning by the word of the tongue.

Sir 4:25
In no wise speak against the truth; but be abashed of the error of thine ignorance.

Sir 4:26
Be not ashamed to confess thy sins; and force not the course of the river.

Sir 4:27
Make not thyself an underling to a foolish man; neither accept the person of the mighty.


Sir 4:29
Be not hasty in thy tongue, and in thy deeds slack and remiss.

Sir 4:30
Be not as a lion in thy house, nor frantick among thy servants.

Sir 4:31
Let not thine hand be stretched out to receive, and shut when thou shouldest repay.


"Make not thyself an underling to a foolish man" - if only Blair had heeded those words!!!


And the following could be a warning to Bush and to most of the Christian Right:

r 1:30
Exalt not thyself, lest thou fall, and bring dishonour upon thy soul, and so God discover thy secrets, and cast thee down in the midst of the congregation, because thou camest not in truth to the fear of the Lord, but thy heart is full of deceit.

[arendt]

23. Good advice, wise counsel are worth following, no matter from whom...

Great quotes.

Now that I'm thinking about it, isn't the "Turn, turn, turn" lyric
a chapter from Ecclesiasticus?

arendt