Edwards for MANDATORY service?

[Milo_Bloom]

Maybe this was discussed here yesterday or is in a thread I didn't see, but this is just too offensive to pass up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052100866.html?


"One of the things we ought to be thinking about is some level of mandatory service to our country, so that everybody in America _ not just the poor kids who get sent to war _ are serving this country," he said.

FREEDOM does not include MANDATORY service.

I strongly believe that "serving the country" should be expanded beyond "military" serivce and that people who wish to "serve their country" and earn money for college, etc.. have options besides military service, but I can say 100% for sure that I would not wish to live in a country that demands service from its people with no alternative.

[skipos]

1. I GUARANTEE that such a pratice would keep us out of many wars

Nothing makes people more anti-war than when they have to fight it themselves.

[Warpy]

10. Just like it kept us out of Vietnam?

Dream on.

[skipos]

12. Notice that I said "many" wars, not all

If everyone had to do a tour in Iraq, what % of Americans would have supported the war before it started?

[Warpy]

18. Name one.

[skipos]

24. Name one what?

I am talking about a hypothetical. There has never been a time where everyone had to serve.

Could you answer my question please?

[Warren Stupidity]

43. Name one case where the draft kept us out of a war.

You made the assertion, often made in this debate, that mandatory service will keep us out of unpopular wars. The problem with that assertion is that there is no evidence to support it, and plenty of evidence that prior periods of mandatory military service have not kept us out of wars.

[skipos]

48. "Draft" does not equal "everyone serves"

FWIW, I am not even saying I support this idea. All I am saying is the more likely someone is to be REQUIRED to serve in a war, the less likely they are to support the war.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. So back to the question: one case where the draft kept us out?

Not one. Not even close. But magically 'universal service', that I can assure you will not be universal and whose non-military options will be filled with catch-22 restrictions, will magically prevent the next bad war while providing an endless supply of new bodies to pour into it. OK. Tooth Fairy Time.

[CTLawGuy]

51. fewer Americans would have supported the war

if ANY of our congressional leaders of significance had actually spoken out against it at the time. But when people only hear one side of an argument, they are more likely to support that side (especially when the "opposition" is enthusiastically going along--thanks Dick and Tom :eyes:).

[Tempest]

26. The draft didn't start until after the war started

Apples and oranges.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Uh - that is completely untrue.

The draft was in effect long before vietnam started.

[Tempest]

49. There was a lottery before the war, not a draft

The lottery was used to fill specific jobs within the military.

It wasn't until after the Vietnam war started that the general draft was started.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Uh what are you talking about?

Yes there was a lottery, as there was in the 1940 draft law that manned our army for WWII. The lottery was the mechanism used to select who would get drafted. You have somehow decided that a draft lottery is not a draft. That would be news to the many young men in the 50's and 60's who found themselves manning the frontlines of the cold war standoff between communist and capitalist blocks. It would also be news to all those who were drafted in the draft lottery at the end of the Vietnam War.

"In the first and only instance of U.S. conscription during a major peacetime period, the draft continued on a more limited basis during the late 1950's and early 1960's. While a far smaller percentage of eligible males were conscripted compared to war periods, draftees by law served in the U.S. Army for two years. Elvis Presley and Willie Mays were two of the most famous people drafted during this period."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

[MethuenProgressive]

2. Edwards didn't serve, did he?

And he quit the Senate - where he could've stayed and served.
:shrug:

[Colobo]

3. If he is backing this, then I hope he did...

[mtnsnake]

11. No, but he stayed in a Holiday Inn Select last night!

[bling bling]

39. .

:rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

4. President Eisenhower was an advocate of Universal Military Training

A citizen's army is our best protection against tyranny. Our Founding Fathers did not trust permanent standing armies of professional soldiers, and neither should we.

[MethuenProgressive]

6. As were Mao, Stalin, and Hitler

But I think Johnny Edwards was musing on alternatives to military service.

[LBJDemocrat]

19. Reducto ad Hitlerum

Hitler didn't smoke, and he usually stayed away from meat. Does that mean it's a bad idea to do the same?

[CTLawGuy]

52. alternatively

you can invoke Godwin's Law and stop the debate whenever Hitler comes up.

[Clark2008]

5. Edwards is for everything...

at least once... or maybe until he changes his website.

:)

[Adelante]

7. I actually agree with Edwards

It wouldn't kill anybody to spend a couple of years of their lives in national service, whether military or peace corps or teaching or whatever. It would be a good thing for the country and a good experience for young people.



(NOTE: Do not blame General Clark for my own thoughts. He does not agree with me. His similar plan in 2004 was for voluntary service. He does not advocate a draft of any kind.)

[Colobo]

8. I'm not interested in military service, thanks

[Adelante]

9. Heh, you and almost all of DU

I am in a miniscule minority.

[Catchawave]

13. Me too....

:hi:

[MH1]

53. I'm with you

in that minority.

And, I served.

I think everyone should do something to earn their full citizenship in the US. (Dons flameproof suit...)

[AndyTiedye]

32. Using the Stolen Labor of Young Adults to Drive Down Wages

What is "national service"?

Whom does it serve? The nation? George Bush? The Oil Companies?

In the case of civilan national service, what happens to the workers who are doing that work now?
At best, this will exert considerable downward pressure on their wages.

A military draft provides an endless supply of cannon fodder for such more wars. VERY BAD IDEA.

[Milo_Bloom]

40. If you make taxes optional, sounds good.

But as long as you require me to pay money to government each year, I consider my debt paid. I will not be forced to offer my own or the services of my children against their will.

[Evergreen Emerald]

46. um...it would kill alot of people

if they are used as fodder for Bush's war.

[AndyTiedye]

14. No Good Can Come Of This

A draft simply provides an unlimited source of cannon fodder for the war machine.
The Vietnam war went on, despite all our protests, as long as they had the draft to provide an ongoing source of troops.
Once they ended the draft, the war ended within 2 years, just as the last of the draftees completed their service.



The only reason the Iraq war has gone on so long is because Bush** is sending the same troops back again and again.
Even Nixon would never have done that.

Mandatory civilian public service is a trap of a different kind.
Much of this public service is currently being done by workers with unions, benefits, etc.
They would be replaced by low-paid conscript labor.
Seems like a plan to break some of the last of our unions -- the ones that they can't get to by offshoring.

[LBJDemocrat]

21. Hmmmm

While I just posted saying that I liked Edwards' idea, I think you might be right about using mandatory service as a kind of slave labor to cut costs in public service.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I agree wiht him

and I have made my reasons clear many a times

[Catchawave]

16. More details here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/22/18176/7051

Sound familiar? :D

[Colobo]

17. Edwards should volunteer himself.

[LBJDemocrat]

20. I think it's a great idea

It would reinforce ideals above greed and hedonism, and it would let everyone have something at stake in America's foreign policy (not just a bunch of pretty "fireworks" on TV halfway across the world). I'm of draftable age, but it doesn't stop me from agreeing with him.

[AndyTiedye]

34. Shouldn't That Work Be Done By Free Workers With Unions and Benefits and All?

The workers they can't replace with outsourced labor, they now will be able to replace with conscripts even cheaper.

[PurityOfEssence]

22. America has basically become Fuckyouistan

There's always been a deep streak of selfishness in our national character, and it's always used the concept of "freedom" to justify itself. It wasn't until the 1980 election that somehow greedy, solipsistic disregard of any obligation to one's fellow man somehow became a virtue.

What's the matter with being required to render some period of service to the country? I'd like to hear the plan, but it's obvious that it's not just military service.

Giving a damn about one's fellow human and pitching in out of some kind of communal spirit is a good thing. If it's a short period that's required (not more than a year) it would be a great equalizer. People SHOULD give back something for all the advantages being a citizen of this successful country brings them.

I'm trying to be charitable and not rub the thread starter's nose in this, but this is precisely the kind of attitude that makes this country meaner and colder with each passing day.

The concept that man is an island and doesn't owe anything to anyone else or the group at large is one of the fundamental elements of conservatism, and I've never liked that assumption. It also simply isn't true: we need each other, and by the banding together of civilization, we reap huge rewards. We are able to specialize and have the stability necessary to advance as a species. This is something Libertarians will never get even when confronted with whole universes of proof.

We have a right as a people to expect something from each other. This is really no more than a different kind of tax or the heinous forcing of children to get a little schoolin'. It also has far-reaching social ramifications and would almost by definition be broadening for those on the cusp of adolescence and adulthood. It's good to experience new things. It's good to perform some public service. Sadly, much as I'm optimistic about human nature, far too many won't "do the right thing" unless forced to. That's why we have laws. That's why Reaganite "voluntary regulation" doesn't work.

Join the party. Pitch in. Give something back. Put your back into it when you're young, because you'll surely benefit from society's care when you're old. (If not directly, at least by the relative safety that an orderly society brings.)

Man I can't stand this attitude.

Ethically, morally and in simple practicality we can't be so selfish and unwilling to be told what to do in absolutely every occasion; it's against the very soul of civilization. I'm so sick of these "why should I have to..." arguments.

[Cameron27]

23. Ok, my knee jerk reaction was that this was

a really BAD idea, but after reading your post, I guess I need to give it more consideration before jumping to any conclusions.

[venable]

27. excellent post n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

28. these "why should I have to..." arguments. - are the backbone of the Repukes!

It is social Darwinism combined with Fundamentalism that defines what the Repukes stand for. "As long as I got mine, f**k you and yours." is their motto.

I totally agree with you..I thought WE were the folks who were for community, and acting together..looking out for each other. I thought we were the ones that felt "There but for the grace of - whatever higher power you choose- go I."

[Warren Stupidity]

31. There is a huge difference.

"As long as I got mine, f**k you and yours" is not at all the same as "I oppose involuntary servitude of any sort". Equating the two is massively bogus.

[CTLawGuy]

59. "why should I have to....

...bear my rapist's child?"

...keep my sexual orientation under wraps when I'm in the Army?"

...attend inferior segregated schools?"


Yep, totally republican :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

30. The matter is that it is involuntary: unfree.

That is problem number one. You want to volunteer: go for it. When it is involuntary it becomes effectively slavery.

Problem number two: when exactly have we had an involuntary national service program that was not simply a military draft? Dressing this pig up as the CCC is simply dishonest. National service will quickly become national military service and it will be used to continue their criminal long war.

You do not end the war by funding it and you will not stop this war and future wars by providing a steady stream of press-gang recruits.

[PurityOfEssence]

37. Pure freedom in society is untenable

We don't allow people to kill other people; what an egregious form of group tyranny.

We don't allow people to drive drunk; what a pissy bunch of puritans we are.

As for your premise that this will simply be used as a back-door draft, I simply don't agree. Edwards is not that kind of person, and any laws put in place for a national service like this will be endlessly haggled over and scrutinized, as they should. This would be done in the public forum and be a major issue in media coverage.

Being a part of society has many advantages and a fair amount of drawbacks. To demand stem-to-stern absolute freedom is simply impossible without infringing on the rights of others and unleashing chaos. To demand such folly smacks of being an ideologue. If one wants pure freedom, one should go off and live in a cave somewhere.

We all enjoy great benefits from the toil of others and should pay back into the system. Showing up at a party empty-handed and then drinking all the good beers is one's right, and far too many people not only feel free to do so but oddly virtuous as they careen on with their need to dominate and win. Sadly, many people have to be kept in line, and that's why we have laws. We banded together and formed civilizations to protect ourselves from the roving predatory animals and from people from the other side of the hill, but we also did it to protect ourselves from each other.

Ideologues need their chosen topic to be unquestioned; it's just like the free-market profit motive nuts who demand that medicine and everything else be for unregulated profit. Some things just don't work well that way, and people don't always get things right.

Do you feel that requiring children to have regulated schooling is also a form of slavery? It's involuntary, so it MUST be some form of slavery, right? (We do this to force people to be useful members of society, or at the very least ones with whom we can communicate. Forcing people to learn a language and read is just as cruel as a short mandatory service period.) Is it that it's okay to do this to minors, since they don't have the full rights of adults? If so, then let's have people do their service before reaching the age of majority.

Society benefits us all; it should also cost us all a little something, and currently it doesn't. This is privilege and hence an evocation of aristocracy.

When John Edwards proposed helping kids go through college but requiring that they work at some kind of a job during the process, he told of unloading trucks at night to help get himself through school and said something to the effect that it didn't hurt him one bit.

Taxes are involuntary; are they slavery, too? What about obeying traffic lights and signs? Beastly things, aren't they? Then, of course, there are littering laws. How fiendish! How much more must we endure? I'd go on, but it would probably just incense you with the outrages that abound.

Join the party; it might even be nice to offer yourself to the host or hostess to help clean up at the end, and that's voluntary. If they don't want you smoking in their place, though, that's slavery enforced by some big meanies, and if you don't like it, don't stay.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Not allowing murder justifies involuntary servitude?

You might have had interesting things to say after that but I stopped there. Yes of course we do not allow people to terminate involuntarily other people's lives. Nor do we allow slavery outside of the military draft. I refuse to expand the level of unfreedom in society on the basis that we already have restrictions on our absolute freedom, and so should you.

[CTLawGuy]

56. pure freedom is untenable

therefore gays shouldn't have the right to get married,
we shouldn't have habeas corpus,
therefore abortion should be outlawed,
the government should be able to arrest and jail anti-war protesters,





just in case

:sarcasm:

[AndyTiedye]

35. On Reflection, I think it's a TERRIBLE Idea

Who decides what constitutes "national service"?
Who will we be expected to serve?
What will happen to the workers doing that work now?

[CTLawGuy]

54. lemme guess who wouldn't have to participate

1. John Edwards,
2. everyone else who is for this crap.

[Milo_Bloom]

41. There is no plan that justifies MANDATORY service

To something as lame as "country".

If people wish to do community service, that is a choice, not a demand, or else it isn't service, it is SERVITUDE.

If something like this goes through, I would pack my bags and find somewhere else to raise my children.

[Sparkly]

44. I agree

I think it's become easy to overlook the hardships, sacrifices, and fights that have forged and sustained the country's freedom. It's taken for granted as an entitlement. The grandchildren of the "greatest generation," who grew up without a draft, have a very different view of their country, their freedom, and the whole concept of mandatory much-of-anything.

[bluethruandthru]

47. A version of this may already be starting.

...our school district requires students do a certain number of hours of community service before they can graduate. I think it really helps open the eyes of some young people to the needs of others.

[MH1]

55. Hear, hear!!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Robson]

25. I agree....and "service" should be more than military

What better way to offer young motivated adults a college or technical degree, to provide an opportunity to serve and earn a stipend while maturing after high school, to help get things done in our country from helping at national parks, hospitals, to cleaning graffiti, to serving in a visitor center, to military service. Speaking as one who met a military obligation when it was required, most who serve and survive will say it was a growing experience and a mixing experience with those from all economic classes.

Today few in the military come from the elite. Our military should be made up of more than kids from the back country. We need those from midtown Manhattan and other high rent city and suburban districts.

[AndyTiedye]

36. Conscript Labor Would Bust Public Service Unions and Drive Down Wages

[Robson]

45. You mean like illegal immigrants

A primary social objective in this country should be upgrading the educational and skill level in our country. That's what such a service requirement would be about, while improving the character of young Americans and doing needed things in the country.

That's odd that you saying that the service unions are concerned about driving down labor costs, when their union leaders are working hard to saturate the country with temporary and illegal workers which does exactly that. There is still a huge discrepancy and hypocrisy between how self serving union leaders benefit (through increased numbers of members paying dues) and how the actual members benefit.

[MH1]

33. Yay, John Edwards!!!!

Finally, something differentiating that I like about him. Cool.

[Colobo]

38. Community or military service should NOT be mandatory

There is no need for that if a culture of service becomes part of the formation of every American. In schools, not only kids should be taught about math and reading, but about being good citizens, valuable members of the community and country they are part of. We don't need laws to force individuals to do what's right, we need a change in the hearts and minds of our people, and education is the way to achieve that.

[A Simple Game]

61. Not mandatory?

I believe math and reading are mandatory, should they be optional?

It is a good idea, if you want the schools to do it, fine, it should be done. Add a year to the already mandatory amount of school required?

[CTLawGuy]

50. would it apply to me??????

No? THEN I'M ALL FOR IT :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[hughee99]

57. Exactly right...

I think all people who are YOUNGER than me should be required to do some sort of government service. It's unbelievable that the poor are sent off to fight our wars while the children of the wealthy are out partying all night! We need a new system where the poor are sent off to fight the wars while the children of the wealthy are required to some minor, unnecessary public service (or some important public service that they are completely unqualified to do) during the day before they go out partying. :sarcasm:

[CTLawGuy]

58. hehe

attacking a politcally weak and unpopular, yet not protected, group is fun isn't it. Just ask Hillary "young people today are lazy--oops sorry Chelsea" Clinton.

[Ethelk2044]

60. Military Service

It should go back to where it was. Then almost everyone would have not been for the war. As it is not. War is OK as long as my son or daughter does not have to participate. It should be fair and across the board. Also, service can be volunteering in low income schools or helping with homeless etc. It will also awake many americans who feel like as long as it does not affect me I do not care. All other countries make people serve. We should as well. You may serve in other areas not military, but serve the country.