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It was 42 years ago that I cast my first vote for President.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:20 PM
Original message
It was 42 years ago that I cast my first vote for President.
I voted for the "peace candidate." LBJ. And what I got for that vote was more than 2 million people slaughtered in Southeast Asia, including over 55,000 U.S. soldiers.

Lesson: Beware of Democrats bearing peace.

We are at the same turning point again. Democratic War. Republican War. Take you pick. Fascism-lite. Fascism-brutal. Choose your poison.

But the system for disenfranchising the peace-minded, progressive American majority has gotten much worse now.

I have held off writing this post for a long time, hoping against the facts that I am aware of--and hoping against the known history of bipartisan collusion in the "military-industrial complex"--that things would turn out differently, and that the Democratic Party would somehow be responsive to the will of the people, in the face of the overwhelming list of crimes of the Bush Junta, starting with their illegal, unjust, heinous war on Iraq.

One of the facts that I have been aware of, for some time, is Democratic Party leadership collusion on the conversion of our election system to electronic voting, run on "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations--one of them, Diebold, with a CEO pledged to Bush/Cheney's reelection, and the other, ES&S, brethren to Diebold, initially funded by rightwing nutball 'christian' billionaire, Howard Ahmanson.

All but two* of our Democratic Senators voted for this outrage, and half the House Democrats, in the same month that they voted for the Iraq War Resolution, October 2002. In these two acts, they not only gave away Congress' sole power to declare war, to George Bush, they also gave him and his Junta, and their corporate puppetmasters, the means to rig the 2004 election, and all future elections.

This mind-boggling betrayal of Democratic voters--and of the American people, and of our democracy--has now produced its expectable result: A Congress that has the name Democratic, but is still profoundly unrepresentative of the American people. I think the American people tried their best to outvote the machines in 2006, and succeeded in some cases, but could not achieve the change they so overwhelmingly desire, with this tremendous handicap of non-transparent, and highly riggable, vote counting. 75% of the American people oppose the Iraq War and want it ended, but they could only achieve a 50/50 Congress, which is heavily weighted toward "Blue Dog" Democrats, who want to cut all spending except the spending for war.

I don't think there could be a clearer demonstration of what "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY vote counting is FOR, than what happened in the last election, and what happened today: the people trying their best to vote for the end of this terrible war, and the Democratic leadership colluding with Bush to ESCALATE it INSTEAD, and to throw another $100 billion down that war profiteering rathole.

By my own guestimate, and that of statistical experts, Diebold/ES&S have been placing a 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" against the true will of the people, in both primaries and general elections, since at least 2004. There are other things wrong with our election system. We all know what they are. They have been eroding our democracy for some time. But this is the corporate/war profiteer coup de grace--the means of perpetuating an egregiously illegal and unjust war against the overwhelming will of the people, the means of inducing hopelessness, and the means of killing our democracy once and for all.

We are at a turning point in American history, and in the history of the world and of the human race. Unless this country throws off fascist war and our corporate rulers, there is little hope that our planet will still be a livable place by the end of this century. The World Wildlife Fund gives us 50 years--50 years to the DEATH of the planet--from a combination of environmental impacts that are all related to global warming and CO2 pollution.

While we fritter away this decade and the next, trying to corner the market on the last oil deposits, for the benefit of the super-rich, and slaughter many more people toward that disgusting goal, Planet Earth is slipping beyond the reach of the mitigation and restoration that can be accomplished with human ingenuity and resolve. We, who are responsible for 25% of the pollution that is destroying the planet, are continuing to kill others in order to keep polluting it.

It is insane.

"Trade secret," proprietary vote counting is insane.

This illegitimate junta in the White House is insane.

Our own party leaders are insane, or collusive with the insanity all around them.

I don't really know how we can account for the latter--our own party leaders. Perhaps some are afraid--they have reason to be with this junta--and perhaps some are over-privileged, besotted with the power of the New Roman Empire, fast catapulting to "decline and fall." I can almost understand getting trapped by war fever or oil fever, or bloodlust, or the "military-industrial" monster, or by fear, or blackmail, or the hubris of the over-privileged. That has happened before. It happened in Vietnam. But what I can't understand, and what I cannot forgive, is the deliberate conspiracy to destroy our democracy with "trade secret" vote counting. That is the betrayal of all betrayals.

They all knew what it was. Don't let them lie to you that they did not. It is very nearly the definition of a politician to know how votes are being counted and by whom. They knew. The lead Democrat on it was Sen. Christopher Dodd, now running for president, with no known support or constituency for his campaign. He is the one who colluded with biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress--Tom Delay and Bob Ney--to fast-track a fraudulent voting system all over the country, with a $3.9 billion electronic voting boondoggle that, in turn, corrupted most of the county/state election officials and state legislators. After the 2004 (s)election, DNC chair Terry McAuliffe and aide Donna Brazile helped to cover it up, by immediately shutting down all discussion of election fraud throughout the Democratic Party, and even at some leftist blogs. But it wasn't just a few leaders. It was ALL OF THEM.

I have been very reluctant to play any part in a fracturing of the Democratic Party, leadership vs. grass roots, because I greatly fear a repeat of Germany 1932, when the center/left was unable to govern, one of the chief factors in Hitler's rise.

But I am stymied in knowing what to do myself, and what to advise, based on my 46 years of political activism. (First campaign 1960, for JFK.) The Democratic Party lied to us and betrayed us, in Vietnam. But I stayed in the party, and have remained all these years, loyally voting for Democrats, and contributing money and time. And now they have betrayed us again, not only on this SECOND unjust war, but also on the fundamental premise of democracy--our only power, our only means of reform: vote counting that everyone can see and understand.

In 1968, after the assassination of RFK, we were given a choice of LBJ's VP Hubert Humphrey, or Richard Nixon. Humphrey had gone along with war, enthusiastically. Nixon said he had a secret plan for peace. People voted for peace. Nixon escalated the war.

Now we have the exact mirror image of that political situation. As with Alice, we enter the "Looking Glass" again. Bush started this heinous war. The Democrats--as the ashes of "peace" shoot out of their mouths--will build on this escalation and make the war permanent. They will never give up the foothold Bush (and they) have bought in the Middle East, until millions are dead, and US-based global corporate predators have control of the last oil reserves.

I saw all this developing, out of the 2004 stolen election. I knew that it was first of all about our Democratic leaders support for the war, and secondly--more long term--about global corporate predator rule. Our leaders' mind-boggling silence about "trade secret" vote counting. Their disinterest in massive vote suppression (which I am fairly convinced was needed, in addition to Diebold/ES&S, due to the landslide against Bush/Cheney). Their shutdown of all discussion. And the glassy-eyed looks they all gave when anybody brought up election fraud--as if they didn't know.

We--the people, the grass roots, the overwhelming American majority--can continue trying to outvote the machines, but we can expect the same kind of results. Bullshit anti-war rhetoric. Continued, escalating war. Slightly more sincere but still mainly bullshit populist rhetoric. Continued massive looting by the rich. More outsourcing of jobs and manufacturing. Continued erosion of the environment and climate stability. Nothing much will change.

I don't think '06 was a conspiracy to "let the Democrats" win, modestly, so that nothing changes but they now get blamed for the war. I think they have been guilty of the war all along, and what is worse, they are guilty of the dishonest, rigged vote counting. I think the American people desperately wanted change and voted overwhelmingly for the Democrats, in the desperate hope of change. And this is what they get: more war. And that is the tragedy and the outrage. It's not that our Congressional leaders don't have enough votes to stop the war and impeach these criminals. It's they NEVER WANTED TO HAVE ENOUGH VOTES.

I have continued to ask, regarding Nancy Pelosi's opening statement, upon being handed the House gavel by the American people--"Impeachment is off the table"--WHAT table? And why weren't the people who handed her that gavel SITTING at it? What negotiation took place THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTIONS that entirely excluded impeachment? And who WAS at that table?

I thought it was possible that she was secretly buying no war on Iran. I hoped for the best. But I don't think that now. I think we have been fully and irredeemably betrayed by our own party leaders. And I would like to be wise and sage about this, and urge patience, and the long slow road back to democracy--even through more war, even through a Hillary presidency, or whatever Diebold/ES&S has in store for us. But I can't. Not after today. Not after our leaders' collusion on the Iraq War spending bill. They could have said no. They did not. And that is it.

Because of Diebold/ES&S. Because they never wanted to say no. And they helped set things up so that we, the people, would have no say.

Again, if it was just the war, I would say be patient. But it isn't just the war. It's the rigged voting machines, and how they came about, with the full collusion of our party leadership, to this day. And it is such lethal collusion that even the best of our political office holders cannot, and will not, even MENTION IT, let alone demand that this rigged system be removed, or that 100% handcounts be implemented, as a full check on machine fraud. Common sense! They won't even speak for common sense!

I think it's time to split up the Democratic Party. I'm nobody, really--just a concerned citizen. It's not up to me. It's up to all of us, the real Democratic Party, to make this collective decision. This party is OURS, not theirs. Those who have supported Diebold/ES&S vote counting, and this terrible war, are traitors to everything most of us believe in, and to everything the oldsters among us have learned from long, hard experience. The lessons of Vietnam. The lessons of NAFTA. The lessons of Clinton "welfare reform" and increasing corporate ruler dominance. The lessons of the tax code re-write and the Reagan Era of Greed. The lessons of not indicting Ronald Reagan for Iran-Contra, and for the terrible slaughter of Mayan villagers--200,000 of them--in Guatemala that he was complicit in.

We are the party of the people. And our leaders are not the leaders of the people. They are collusive with Bush and his gangsters. And they are offering us fascism-lite. More bloodshed. More looting. With a pretty face.

It is irrelevant who I want "the Democrats" to nominate for president. It is irrelevant whether I remain a Democrat or not. I am irrelevant. You are irrelevant. The American people are irrelevant.

That's where we are, in my opinion. For what it's worth. And I welcome discussion of solutions. I have never lost faith in the American people--ever. They never wanted this war (56% opposed, Feb. '03). They never wanted, or voted, for Bush and fascist rule. Their will has been thwarted. And if we can't figure out what to do about it, they and we will suffer--immensely--whether by attrition and increasing impoverishment and social disarray, or by brutal suppression of their rebellion.

Oddly, I have much hope--even after this tirade. It's hope in the people, and in humanity, not hope in our leaders. They have killed my hope in them. And, really, it's not we, the Democratic grass roots, who would be splitting up the party. It is already gravely split between the war-supporting, corporate ruler-supporting leadership, and all us peons. THEY caused the split. Not us. We have been loyal and hard-wording through thick and thin. I just want to say, finally, that I consider Howard Dean and some others to be exceptions, among the leadership. In fact, we have a number of fine representatives. But every last one of them--including Dean--has been silent or near silent on the "trade secret" vote counting. Is it fear? I don't know. But it seriously erodes my loyalty even to the best of them. It's time for acknowledging the main leadership's break with us, and the formation of a NEW Democratic Party that represents the vast majority of its membership and the interests of the American people.

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Robson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oddly I also blame Kerry and Gore
for capitulating so easily, and not leading the masses into the streets for peaceful demonstration as was done by Viktor Yushchenko and the Orange revolution in Ukraine against voter fraud.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Gore did not capitualte
but what did you want him to do after the USSC made its ruling?

Now kerry, absolutely

Gore has even told you in whispers that his other choice was civil war
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Kerry had far less to make a stand on
Gore was 537 votes down - and there were thousands of ballots in a Democratic stronghold that didn't register because of "chads".

The methods used in Ohio mostly prevented large numbers of people from voting. (This was done in FL in 2000 too - Gore didn't make his case on the Felons list or suppression of the Haitian voting.)

In the wake of 2000, the CW of many people was that the superior voting machines in Republican parts of FL meant a far higher percent of Republican votes were counted. I don't think people associated election theft with voting machines in 2000. It was viewed as the solution.
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Robson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. They both rolled over instead of demanding a revote using paper ballots
What should have been done was exactly what the Ukrainians did and that was put enormous pressure on the government to investigate voter fraud before the people would accept the candidate. The solution would have been to demand a revote using paper ballots in those states in question. But the people needed a leader of standing to put focus on it and make it happen. I guarantee if Kerry or Gore would have demanded a revote using a paper ballot because of the obvious inconsistencies, that people would have rallied around it.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. A most hearty and enthusiastic, K & R
This could well be the most honest, relevant, and depressing thread I've ever read here. I salute you for writing it:patriot:, and I mourn what has become of my country, my people, and the party that was never mine.


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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. on to the Greatest Page with you ...
w/ a :kick:


dp
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. K & R
I don't have much to add to what you've already written.

But, this thread needs some replies to go with the recommends. :wry smile smiley goes here:

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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. We're between a rock and a hard place.
I only have a partial solution. And since there is no solution for the part that is most important, I will refrain from mentioning it.


Imagine that our economy relies on a great part on military. We are a military economy, to a good extent. And imagine you are a Congressman who knows that. OK, enough of that.


The solution is right in front of us. Energy. The new economy will be an energy economy.


Oops. Daily Show time. Sorry. But that's pretty much what I have to say on this.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. this must be greatest page. Many need to read this and think. And
Sir, Madam? I applaud you. Your words have deeply touched and I do think, like you, we need to cast off the corporate worshippers of our party and become real democrats again.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. You voted for LBJ in 1965?!
That's weird. I voted for him in 1964. :)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. That expains it. I've been in a parallel universe ever since, that is one digit off!
Ha!

Alternatively, I've got 2006 on the brain--and subtracted 1964 from the wrong year.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I knew it was some simple mental burp like that
But I couldn't resist the silly dig. As you know, we old people are like that.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. "They could have said no. They did not." The fact the exposes all of the lies.
Brilliant.:kick:

Keeping it up to be read.



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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. if the problem is bipartisan collusion, which direction would Diebold tip the scales?
By my own guestimate, and that of statistical experts,

In that order?

Those who have supported Diebold/ES&S vote counting, and this terrible war,

In that order?

Again, if it was just the war, I would say be patient. But it isn't just the war. It's the rigged voting machines,

In that order.

I can accept the Nader Principle ("Take you pick. Fascism-lite. Fascism-brutal."), and I'm learning to respect e-voting theories with at least a ten foot pole, but if both parties serve the same master, why would the powers that be be vested in any particular outcome? Why would you rig a shell game after you already rigged the shell game by removing the pea?

I don't think '06 was a conspiracy to "let the Democrats" win, modestly, so that nothing changes but they now get blamed for the war. I think they have been guilty of the war all along, and what is worse, they are guilty of the dishonest, rigged vote counting.

So the Democrats collaborated in this 5-10% point shaving scheme (by your guesstimate, and serendipitously the ballpark guesstimate of "statistical experts") against Democrats across the board? And this is why you want to break from the party, not their position on the war today but their complicity in winning every race we hoped to win (except Connecticut) in 2006, yet you "held off writing this post for a long time"? Which part?

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Foo_bar, I think our elections are a very complex matter, in which the new ability
of these rightwing corporations to fiddle votes, leaving no trace, is tipping the balance. The 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" is not used evenly, across the board--it would be too detectable if it was. That is an average--a guestimate--generally reflective of the overall disenfranchisement of the majority that is occurring. Sometimes it's a 15% "thumb on the scales," sometimes 3%, depending on circumstances--the importance of the race, the size of the underlying progressive vote, the closeness of the race, the success of dirty tricks, etc.

In 2004, the presidential stats indicate a wave of vote stealing across the country, from east to west, with most of the theft occurring on the east coast, and the highest percentages of vote stealing in the battleground states (TIA's analysis of exit poll vs. Diebold/ES&S secret vote counting formulae). The exit poll discrepancy in that election shows a flip of that vote in the 1% to 6% range. (This does not count the purged voters, who never got to vote--Greg Palast estimated one million purged black voters in 2004. Add those to Kerry's column--along with guestimates of other kinds of vote suppression, such as the excessive challenges of black and other Democratic votes, forcing these voters to use easily tossable provisional ballots--and you're looking at a Kerry landslide.) In Senate races in North Carolina in 2004, and in Georgia in 2002 (first all-Diebold election), the exit poll discrepancies are much bigger (and in NC showed a distinct bias to Bush in e-voting vs. paper voting). Virtually all exit poll discrepancies and all electronic voting machine anomalies favor Republicans. That alone should be a tipoff. In the Ohio by-election on election reform initiatives in 2005, there was a 60/40 flip. (The initiatives were favored by 60% up to election day; on election day, the result flipped over to a 60% loss! --which I take to mean that these corporations were experimenting with much bigger flips, an ominous portent for 2008--if somehow the Democratic Party nominates a true populist/ anti-war candidate).

The 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" is the guestimate of Dr. Ron Baiman and other statisticians. I found that MY guestimate, which had some statistical basis, and some intuitive/anecdotal basis, as well as political analysis, was the same. But the theft by machine is obviously not applied across the board, but rather selectively, mostly to close races, to tip the balance here and there, and in combination with other methods of stealing or influencing elections (both legal/ethical and not legal/ethical--for instance, hiring/firing US Attorneys to get false prosecution of Democrats just before an election, or false prosecution of individual "voter fraud" by poor, black or other Dem voters, with no evidence). TIA's analysis of 2006 points to a 20-seat loss by the Democrats. We gained about 30 seats. We should have gained 50 seats, and many more anti-war seats, giving the Democrats a rock-solid majority in the House, and thus giving the House Democrats more strength in dealing with the dinosaurs in the Senate (only 1/3 of which was up for reelection in 2006).

Consider the overall complex picture of how the progressive majority is suppressed. The most obvious factor is money. It starts in the primaries. Candidates have to have a million dollars to even begin to think of running for Congress. This orients candidates to the richest donors, and begins to exclude populist candidates. (I remember a joke among grass roots activists in California during Gray Davis' tenure--that you couldn't get in the Governor's door without at least a $10,000 check in your hand. And who among us has $10,000 to offer, to get our political opinion heard?) There is plain evidence that Democratic Party money was used to favor "Blue Dog"/pro-war Democrats in 2006. Anti-war, populist Democrats were selected out. And if they won the primary anyway, they were then underfunded. And if that couldn't keep them out of Congress, then Diebold/ES&S vote stealing was applied. When you think of the election in 2006 of Senators like Feinstein and Lieberman--neither of which was dependent on e-voting (that we know of)--you realize that the first factor, in some cases, is money. E-voting is applied when money fails. Feinstein is an interesting case--pro-war, pro-corporate, might as well be a Republican. Elected overwhelmingly in a big anti-war state, with only a moneyless candidate--far, far superior to her on the issues--running against her in the primary, and a dope in the general. Diebold/ES&S techs could take a vacation on that one. Money ruled.

So, you start off with pro-war, pro-corporate candidates being favored in every way--whether Republicans or 'Democrats.' They get all the easy money. The war profiteering corporate news monopolies promote them. The Rovian crime machine backs off on dirty tricks, spying, blackmail, use of US Attorneys, or whatever. (Why bother, when they will always support Bush and the fascist agenda in a crunch? It's even better for the Bushites, P.R.-wise, in some cases, to have D's voting for their dreadful war and other policies.) Local/state party leaders favor them in many cases as well--or are afraid of them. The word comes down from on high. Anti-war, anti-corporate candidates are discouraged from running. The grass roots is told to shut up and raise the hard money (the little peoples' money, in $20 increments). The party leaders completely ignore massive suppression of poor voters (prior to Dean anyway), and unanimously favor "trade secret," proprietary vote counting by rightwing Bushite corporations.

Diebold/ES&S vote counting is the coup de grace, in a situation which is already very corrupt. Completely unverifiable vote counting, by highly insecure and insider riggable voting machines and central tabulators, run on secret code concerning which rightwing corporations assert PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS, which they wrote into our law.

How could they get away with this? How could they even THINK of doing this?!

But there you are. It is done. With the complete agreement and complicity of the Democratic Party leadership.

Why would rightwing billionaire CEOs and the "military-industrial" war profiteers play this "shell game"--of (s)electing now Republicans ('04), now Democrats ('06), with little or no difference of policy between them? I think the answer is obvious. They wanted to perpetrate a completely unjust war--in a democracy with the Vietnam War in living memory--and wanted further to drag U.S. policy way, way over to the fascist right, and they had to factor in the overwhelming progressive bent of the American people, and their potential rebellion (i.e., Seattle '99). Thus we get this cartoon dictator president, Bush, and his lethal cabal, not only starting this completely unnecessary war, but pushing outrages like torture and the "unitary executive," to make CORPORATE Democrats look mild by comparison. Note the SECRET "free trade" deal that our Democratic leaders recently made with Bush. Jobs BLEEDING out of the country. Labor rights in the worst condition they have been in, in a century. The planet DYING from Corporate-inflicted CO2 pollution. One South American country after another electing leftist (majorityist) governments and REJECTING U.S. corporate predator "free trade" (along with its military component, the murderous U.S. "war on drugs"). And what do we get from our 'Democrats'? ANOTHER secret "free trade" deal! --with the FEW remaining compliant Latin American countries--quick, before anyone notices!

The methods of stealing elections have escalated in proportion to the NEED to steal elections. The outrageousness of those methods has increased in proportion to the outrages being committed by global corporate predators and the "military-industrial complex." The worse they get--and the more resistance they are getting from the rest of the world--the more imperative it is that they control our election outcomes.

My conclusions about the voting system are NOT just based on what I consider to be an overwhelming statistical case for massive fraud. When you have 75% of the American people opposed to the Iraq War, and the Iraq War their first issue in Congressional elections, and you end up with a 50/50 Congress, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG. And you don't have to look far to see what it is: "TRADE SECRET" vote counting, fast-tracked across the country right alongside 24/7 warmongering lies--all stations, all the time--in the build-up to the war.

The stat that alerted me to the Diebold/ES&S scam (for more investigation) was way back in Feb. '03: 56% of the American people opposed the war, before the invasion, before all the lies were exposed. 56%! That would be a landslide in a presidential election. That is WHY the Dieboldization of our elections was perpetrated ALONG WITH THE WAR. To defeat that big 56% anti-war majority.

You ask the question, "In that order?", with regard to electronic vote stealing vs. the war. My point is that they were simultaneous. If you look at one--the war--by itself, you can see how Democratic politicians could be trapped into it. Some pro-war, some not, some well-meaning, some not, most tainted by the "military-industrial complex" to some extent, almost all ambitious, some presidentially ambitious, and others scared (by anthrax, by Paul Wellstone's death), some spied upon and blackmailed, some trying to do the right thing despite all--a mixed bag. You can UNDERSTAND many of the pro-war (and other pro-fascist) votes in those circumstances.

But the Democratic leadership's support of these election theft machines indicates BAD FAITH of a higher order of magnitude. It is something that did not have to be, and that could be easily undone--and they HAVEN'T UNDONE IT.

And now we find them sneakily supporting the ESCALATION of this war--in defiance of 75% of the American people--and furthermore perpetrating ANOTHER secret "free trade" deal!

Strike One: The Democratic leadership's past support for this heinous war, and their current support of the ESCALATION.

Strike Two: The Democratic leadership's simultaneous support of corporate-controlled secret vote counting, and their failure to undo it, or even to mitigate it with substantial reform.

Strike Three: The Democratic leadership's support for Clinton "free trade" (global corporate piracy)--with no labor and environmental protections--for 8 years, and their support of it AGAIN, recently, in a SECRET deal with Bush.

Three strikes and you're out, as they say in our Bushified, so-called justice system. Especially if your first two crimes are BIG ONES. Enough is enough!

You question my statement about holding off this post for a long time. I have criticized our leadership on both grounds before--the election theft machines and the war--and I have connected the two. (And I've also had a few things to say about "free trade," particularly with regard to jobs here, and impacts on third world countries.) But I have NEVER said that I think we should split the Democratic Party, or that I think that our Democratic Party leadership has split from US. In fact, I have cautioned against this. I have said that we need to stick together, and patiently work toward restoring democracy--including, for instance, even supporting a Hillary Clinton presidency, no matter what she does (say, a military Draft), in order to restore transparent vote counting, which MUST be our FIRST PRIORITY. I have said, think long term! Think beyond the next (s)election. Do not foster a fracturing, a la Germany 1932! I fear that. I do!

And I think I understand the several handicaps that even the best of our Democratic leaders are working under. They are gravely serious ones, including fear and probable spying/blackmail. What I am saying here is that their WORST handicap is SELF-INFLICTED, and DELIBERATE. Support for non-transparent vote counting. And the RESULT is now displayed for all to see. With 75% of the American people opposed to the war and wanting it ended, they are permitting Bush to ESCALATE it, without opposition! Because, they claim, they DON'T HAVE THE VOTES! Why don't they have the votes? Because they killed some antiwar candidacies, and let Diebold/ES&S do the rest.

You say "we" won all but one of the seats "we hoped to win." You are using that "we" in a special way, to mean the Democratic Party leadership. But I do not count "Blue Dog" Democrats in those "wins." They might as well be Bushites. They do NOT reflect the interests or wishes of the American people, and they control Congress. This is a carefully crafted Congress, designed to give the ILLUSION of democracy without the substance. And this is the answer to your question about this "shell game": It is being used to prevent rebellion! It is being used to let a little steam out of our political system--and give it a 'Democratic' coloration, without depth--to forestall civil disorder, in the face of INCREASINGLY outrageous theft by the rich, INCREASINGLY CRIMINAL violations of our Constitution and other laws, in favor of the Corporate Rulers, and an ESCALATED war in the Middle East.

I think this Congress is SLIGHTLY more Democratic than was intended. I think the voters outvoted the machines, in some cases--in furious anger at the Bush Junta. But few realized that, when they pushed that Democratic button, they were voting for more war, for endless war, for a permanent US military foothold in the Middle East, and for continued Congressional tolerance of outrageous White House crimes and the shredding of our Constitution. They wanted a big change. And they have gotten virtually no change--a lot of rhetoric and bluster, and...plop...another $100 billion into Iraq for an escalation of the war with no controls. Why?

Last summer, a poll was posted here at DU showing EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT of the American people opposed to any U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war. 84%! Another poll was posted--a Zogby poll--showing NINETY-TWO PERCENT of the American people wanting transparent vote counting. Americans are slightly less sure what to do about the disaster in Iraq--at 75% opposition to this continued war/occupation. But they are admamant about all three. Overwhelmingly so.

And what do they get? The exact opposite in all cases.

I am saying it is time to realize that our Democratic Party leadership has broken from us, the people, in such a definitive way that we cannot go along with it any more. If they were--DESPITE their collusion on Diebold/ES&S vote counting--FIGHTING Bush and laying this horrible escalation out for what it is, EVEN IF they couldn't stop it, that would be different. But they are not. If they were demanding a 100% handcount of ballots as a check on machine fraud, even though it TOO LATE for this Congress--if they were recognizing their mistake and correcting it--that would be different. But they are not. And the SECRET "free trade" deal with Bush is just black icing on this poisonous cake. They've betrayed us on THAT, TOO? Surprise, surprise.

And I don't know what to do about it. Some of the South Americans are rejecting party politics, and trying to create a more representative system, that breaks up the old corrupt political machines, and favors more direct plebiscites, grass roots organization, and participatory democracy. This movement is most notable in Ecuador, Venezuela and Bolivia. But the USA is a much more difficult nation to reform--even looking at the brutal history of South American (and US-abetted) fascism. They certainly have had a lot to overcome. And it should be noted that one of the chief ways they are overcoming it is with long hard work on TRANSPARENT vote counting!* The control mechanisms in the USA, however--and our position as the vortex of global corporate predator evil in the world--make this corrupt system more difficult to analyze and far more difficult to change. Our size and complexity are factors in that difficulty.

I would say--and have often said--start with the most obvious problem: secret, corporate-controlled vote counting. That has got to go! It is the ultimate democracy-killer. It makes even incremental change IMPOSSIBLE. As for the vast reforms that are needed, we will NEVER see them, as long as Diebold/ES&S control our election results. We can't even begin to reform this system until we have restored vote counting that everyone can see and understand.

As for other solutions--right now--in regard to our party leadership, the war and all the rest--I don't know what to do. I think a lot of people are struggling with these questions. And there has been PHENOMENAL effort by grass roots Democrats to reform the party. But we put the House gavel in Nancy Pelosi's hands, and she can't wait a day to betray us. Coming right out of the election, she says, "Impeachment is off the table" (--the "table" we were not invited to sit at!). And, within a MONTH, Bush is ESCALATING the war, and within five months our leaders are helping him to do it.

I was patient with "Impeachment is off the table" figuring that a secret deal with Bush on Iran was better than war on Iran, and/or, hoping for some foxy plan to corner these criminals. But the escalation of the war, and the Democratic leadership's collusion with it, shreds any last hopes I had that this leadership is on the side of the American people.

I have always supported the Democrats--and been a Democrat--because of the all the smaller benefits that help "the little guy." 25 cents more on his/her paycheck. Good infrastructure. Good schools. Parks. Safe food. Help in emergencies. And opposition to unnecessary war, since Vietnam. I have known all along--especially when we hit the Reagan Era of Greed (and slaughter in Latin America) that I was compromising, that our party was becoming more and more corrupt, and more and more distant from "the little guy." I voted Democratic because they had some sense of fairness and lawfulness. I voted Democratic out of hope. And I often voted Democratic because there were no other viable choices. And now I know that my vote means nothing. They can flip it away, invisibly, if they don't like it. And our party leadership is permitting that.

And that is the last straw. Our party leadership is permitting Bushites to control the vote count with 'trade secret,' proprietary code.

They have taken me for granted all these years, and taken my contributions--including $100 on election night, Nov. 2, 2004, to insure that "all the votes will be counted." Ha! They got me, there. I was only half-cognizant of Diebold/ES&S and its secret power: There were no ballots TO count! I got suckered. That money was probably used to kill some poor antiwar Democrat's campaign in '06, or to make copies of that lying, deceitful DNC report on the 2004 (s)election, that Terry McAuliffe put out. Well, that doesn't matter either. They have other places to get a lot more money than I can give them. I'm just one vote, one citizen, one small contributor. If they can kiss off 75% of the American people, then clearly they don't need me. And if they threw the 2004 presidential election--which I believe they did--what is the point of being a member of this political party?

We vote. And nothing changes. That's where we're at.

We vote. And things go backwards. Truly. One of these machines actually started counting backwards, deducting thousands of votes, in '04. Another 'disappeared' 18,000 Democratic votes in '06.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Not a whisper of objection from our leadership. Not a hint that something's wrong.

56% of the American people opposed to this war, way back at the beginning--and Bush/Cheney get reelected?

75% opposed to this war now, and our leaders are making deals with Bush to ESCALATE it?

And I don't know what to do about it. I really don't. I just know that something's going to snap, in this country, if this continues.

This post is a plea to DU members and visitors to look to the most obvious culprit: the voting machines. And it is a plea for solutions. What do we do? How can we unlock the dreadful grip that the "military-industrial complex" has on our government?


----------------------------------------

*(In Venezuela, they vote electronically, but with an OPEN SOURCE CODE system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are counted. And they ADDITIONALLY hand-count FIFTY-FIVE PERCENT of the ballots, as a check on machine fraud. No fools they. Know how much WE hand-count? You'd better find out--cuz that's the whole ballgame, as Josef Stalin is reported to have said. (And they didn't even have baseball in Soviet Russia!))

Some other notes:

Lieberman was elected in CT, where they still have the old-fashioned, virtually unriggable lever voting machines; however, I believe that Diebold/ES&S central tabulators were installed just before that election. But money was probably the main factor.
(We also had so-called leftists like Boxer endorsing Lieberman. Go figure.)

Footnote to the OP: I promised a footnote in the main OP on the Senate vote for Diebold/ES&S vote counting (the vote for the "Help America Vote for Bush Act" of 2002--in the same month as the IWR). Here it is: Only two U.S. Senators voted against it. And I was amazed at who they were: Hillary Clinton and Charles Schumer of NY. But before we start thinking that they have more belief in democracy than other Democratic Senators, bear in mind that New Yorkers are very attached to their old lever machines. That may well account for Clinton/Schumer's votes against HAVA. Diebold/ES&S are now trying very hard to add New York to their non-transparent vote counting corporate fold. Also, Sen. Diane "corporate ruler" Feinstein HEADS the Senate committee on election reform. God help us all!
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Another kick for an incredible sub-thread. You've obviously been looking at this for quite some
time and have, IMO, summed up the depressing situation perfectly.

So perfectly that I'm adding this to my journal so that I can refer back to it when the incessant purveyors of the illusion begin to get me down I can remind myself that there are, in fact, other people that see what is and recognize the game that is being played on us.

You say that you don't know what to do about it, but I believe you do know exactly what must be done, what has always been done, the only result this theft of free will has ever yielded, to paraphrase Mr. Rick, "maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of our lives".


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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. Hope!
Did I say I have hope? I did. And I do. The American people give me hope. So do the people of South America, who are putting up such an amazing fight for democracy and against Corporate/US rule.

The American people never wanted this war, and they never wanted Bush and his criminal cabal. We have suffered a fascist coup, with the complicity of Vichy 'Democrats'--a far more mixed bag than Bushites, some with good intentions, but totally complicit on non-transparent vote counting, that is, complicit in the DISENFRANCHISEMENT of the American people and the end of our democracy.

It is the American people that I am loyal to. It is the American people that I believe in. I think many are still quite bewildered as to why our democracy is not working--and have no idea that it was deliberately sabotaged by both parties, when they placed vote counting under a veil of corporate secrecy.

Our goal must be re-enfranchising the great American progressive majority. That majority has strongly resisted the most relentless warmongering campaign that any people has ever been subjected to, and they have resisted it without any help from the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, or the opposition party leadership. That is amazing. They are well worth our loyalty and our every effort to restore their rights, and our strongest resolve to put the sovereign people of this country back on THEIR rightful throne as the ONLY legitimate power in this land. Restoring transparent vote counting is not only essential for the safety and well-being of this country, it may very well make the critical difference between saving or destroying the entire planet.

We are a good people--peace-minded, generous, creative, industrious, fair and just. Our problem right now is disempowerment, demoralization, and, above all, DISENFRANCHISEMENT. All very deliberate. The one victory of the warmongering press has been to convince many of us that we are the minority. Root that out of your heads. We are--and have all along been--the majority! That is the key to hope. And it is the key to what has gone wrong. How can a 75% majority against the war be so IGNORED? It is because those who are ignoring it have GUARANTEED power by some other agency than the will of the people. And "trade secret" voting counting controlled by Bushite corporations has to be first among the suspects for "other agency"--the most obvious, the most outrageous--and the one that NONE of the political actors on our national stage will talk about.

Even in our darkest hours--deprived of our votes, beset on all sides with fascist policy and mind-boggling government and corporate crime, seeing more young people sent off to the killing fields of Iraq, and mourning over their deaths, and crying over the tortured--we can be heartened by the LACK OF CONSENT that the American people have given to all this, and we don't need to have faith that they want peace and that they want good government. We KNOW that they do!

The people of South America, the people of South Africa, and our own black citizens, have all suffered through more fascist brutality than most of us have ever known. Be heartened by their struggles. Be heartened by their victories. And know that peace, justice and democracy will win, in the end, because that is what the American people long for. These things are not only what most of humanity longs for, they are what we thought we stood for. They reside deep within us, as our heritage. They cannot be extinguished.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Kick!
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick!
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :hi:

Hekate

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. excellent yet again PP!
I think all of the true liberal anti-war democrats should break off because god knows the corporate democratic shills will keep the franchise. I am afraid we have to start a whole new party, which will take years. The huge downside is The Earth and my children do not have that kind of time.

:cry:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. BTW...know time frame you come from
and couldn't agree more. I only have hope in the "community of the internet" though. Not much else from the crap I've seen and the way the PTB through their true patriots and "do gooders" under the bus..time after time.

I know many think that some of us shouldn't take politics this seriously. But, throughout history it seems that only those who DO TAKE POLITICS SERIOUSLY are EVER ABLE to MAKE CHANGES!

The rest are sleeping sheep who manage to go through life without much care in the world. Maybe they are better people than I...and sleep at night, counting themselves, but sadly it wasn't the life that those with a sense of "DUTY" can live with.

We were "CALLED" and we didn't ask for it...it was foisted on us with all the sorrows and burdens and few joys..except we FOUGHT to change the Dark Side of history of the "Entitled."

:shrug:
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think this is a vitally important post
I have been very outspoken in my defense of officeholders. It's not easy to be all things to all people. At the same time, the passage of funding for Iraq with no benchmarks and no timelines? The Democrats are just as complicit in this as the Republicans, and it all comes back to the voting machines.

I was so hopeful when hearings started. Finally, we'd get some justice, wouldn't we? Where? We have the majority. We have the bully pulpit of the American people, who are desperately sick of the way things are, and we STILL can't get answers.

Peace Patriot, I really wish that you would make a journal. I think your posts are some of the more brilliant I've read on this site, and I am always glad to happen onto them. Thank you for your thoughts, because we ALL need to think about it now. What will we do?

Julie
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent post. KRB.
Thank you, Peace Patriot.

Thanks also to KoKo01 for bringing it up to my attention.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
23. K & R nt
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. "bipartisan collusion in the 'military-industrial complex'"
which brings to mind such organizations as the Council on Foreign Relations and similar 'think tanks' funded by corporate-mil-ind money ... where that bipartisan collusion rubs elbows ...

why would any candidate for president accept an invitation to address the antithesis of We the People? Who is a candidate trying to win over at such tax-exempt organizations? Carla Hills or Maurice Greenberg? We the People aren't there. The American worker isn't there. The poor aren't there.

i.e., Council on Foreign Relations

Board of Directors

Peter G. Peterson
Chairman; Senior Chairman and Co-Founder, The Blackstone Group

Carla A. Hills
Vice Chairman; Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Hills & Company

Robert E. Rubin
Vice Chairman; Director/Chairman of the Executive Committee, Citigroup, Inc.

Richard N. Haass
President

Former State Department Director of Policy Planning and lead U.S. official on Afghanistan and Northern Ireland (2001-2003), and principal Middle East adviser to President George H.W. Bush (1989-93). Author or editor of ten books on U.S. foreign policy, including The Opportunity: America’s Moment to Alter History’s Course.
Expertise:

U.S. foreign policy; international security; globalization; Asia; Middle East


Peter Ackerman
Managing Director, Rockport Capital, Inc.

Fouad Ajami
M. Khadduri Prof. of Middle Eastern Studies, Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University

Madeleine K. Albright
Principal, The Albright Group LLC

Charlene Barshefsky
Senior International Partner, Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP

Henry S. Bienen
President, Northwestern University

Stephen W. Bosworth
Dean, The Fletcher School, Tufts University

Tom Brokaw ---> well, there's a sold out 'journalist'; what's he doing at CFR
NBC News

Frank J. Caufield
Co-Founder, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers

Kenneth M. Duberstein
Chairman and CEO, The Duberstein Group, Inc.

Martin S. Feldstein
President, National Bureau of Economic Research

Richard N. Foster
Managing Partner, Investment and Advisory Services (Invaserv), LLC

Ann M. Fudge

Helene D. Gayle
President & CEO, CARE

Maurice R. Greenberg
Chairman & CEO, C.V. Starr & Co., Inc.

Richard C. Holbrooke
Vice Chairman, Perseus LLC

Karen Elliott House

Alberto Ibargüen
President & Chief Executive Officer, John S. and James L. Knight Foundation

Henry R. Kravis
Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.

Michael H. Moskow
President, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago

Joseph S. Nye, Jr.
Distinguished Service Professor, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University

Ronald L. Olson
Senior Partner, Munger Tolles and Olson LLP

James W. Owens
Chairman & CEO, Caterpillar Inc.

Thomas R. Pickering
Vice Chairman, Hills & Company

Colin L. Powell
United States Army (Ret.)

David M. Rubenstein
Co-Founder and Managing Director, The Carlyle Group

Richard E. Salomon
Chairman, Mecox Ventures, Inc.

Anne-Marie Slaughter
Dean, Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, Princeton University

Joan E. Spero
President, Doris Duke Charitable Foundation

Laura D'Andrea Tyson
Professor, Haas School of Business at the University of California, Berkeley

Vin Weber
CEO and Partner, Clark & Weinstock

Christine Todd Whitman
President, The Whitman Strategy Group

Fareed Zakaria
Editor, Newsweek International

Officers and Directors Emeriti:

Leslie H. Gelb (President Emeritus)
Maurice R. Greenberg (Honorary Vice Chairman)
Charles McC. Mathias, Jr. (Director Emeritus)
David Rockefeller (Honorary Chairman)
Robert A. Scalapino (Director Emeritus)
#

http://www.cfr.org/about/people/board_of_directors.html

Sseveral of the names above can be found at The Nixon Center's Board, along with John McCain and Joe Lieberman.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050205063607/www.nixoncenter.org/boardac.htm
Carla Hills used to sit on Maurice Greenberg's AIG Board. They're thick as thieves.

They should form the Investor Class Corporatist Party. That's where the 'bipartisan collusion' meet.


Some other bipartisan collusions:

Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)
http://www.csis.org/about/trustees/

Aspen Institute
http://www.aspeninstitute.org/site/c.huLWJeMRKpH/b.612063/k.AE55/Board_of_Trustees.htm












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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. Another outstanding thread.
I'm in the camp that believes that the problems and the solutions are no longer partisan.

None of the real issues are partisan.

War.

Empire.

Corporatism.

Equal protection.

The grassroots of both parties (I think) are very united on most of this stuff.

Both parties divide over the racist issues (like illegal immigration), so even the most divisive stuff is no longer partisan.

Has all the divisiveness finally become an obvious bi-partisan tactic?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Racial/religious divisiveness...
...(and one of its permutations--"anti-communism")are classic fascism. Get to people at a primitive, gut level, and make them think that the OTHER "little guy" is the problem. They've been tried time and again in this country by the moneyed class, which has, by turns, deliberately stoked up bigotry against blacks, against Native Americans, against "Mexicans" (brown-skinned people), against Catholics, against Jews, against Italians, against the Irish, against "communists," liberals, socialists, union organizers, "the left," hippies and "draft-dodgers," and now, of course, against Muslims, and "Mexicans" (again!), and gays--and even women. They've even tried it against "tree huggers"! --people who are trying to save our planet. The Democratic Party has been the vehicle for defeating these bigotries. That's one of the main reasons people are so loyal to the Democratic Party--that and FDR and the New Deal, which prevented the mass starvation of millions of people in the 1930s, whom the Republicans would simply have allowed to die, after the rich destroyed the U.S. economy.

The willingness of the moneyed class, the "robber barons," and today the global corporate predators,' to stoke up bigotry in this country in particular--which is, by its nature, diverse, and where society and civility could be so easily torn to shreds--is perhaps their most heinous crime. It was bad enough in other societies, throughout European history--the witchburners and haters of Jews and Gypsies, and the Catholic haters of Protestants, and the Protestant haters of Catholics, and the Protestant haters of other Protestant sects--all stoked up by the rich, the land barons, the kings, for purposes of acquisition. But here, in the Great Experiment, in the land of hope, in "the country of immigrants," it is the worst of sins. It is treachery. It is treason.

And the Bushites' naked bigotry puts the great, progressive, tolerant majority in a bind, with the Democratic Party as their only option. A political system with only one option is a SICK political system--a profoundly sick one--and one in very great danger. One advantage of splitting up the Democratic Party would be to create situation--more like that in parliamentary democracies--wherein the "center" has to make concessions to the left, in order to win. Right now, the left--which I believe is the majority--is held hostage by the "center," and is mercilessly bludgeoned by the Corporate Rulers and their "centrist" (bought and paid for) politicians, who keep pulling the "center" further and further to the right. WE, the people, end up with no leverage. That is how secret, corporate-controlled vote counting got snuck in under our radar.

The trouble is that we are NOT a parliamentary democracy, and history is not kind to fractured political systems, in which no consensus can be reached. It is a perilous road to go down. If we go down it, we need to do so with open eyes. Further, we need to try to prevent a mindless, chaotic, angry fracture of the political system. The fascists are HOPING that will happen. They are all ready for us--with their CS gas, and their "rubber bullets," and detention camps, and their "unitary executive." We have to find an orderly way to bust the Corporate/military-industrial complex hold on our Democratic Party leadership, and either reclaim the party, or create one in which the corporatists and warmongers are not welcome. (They can go become irrelevant elsewhere, like the Bushites.)

But to come back to the immediate problem: The Dem/Puke Party is locked in, by non-transparent, corporate-controlled vote counting. There are many other problems--money, jerrymandered districts, the war profiteering corporate news monopolies (who get all the campaign money--via TV ads), filthy lobbyists, corporations writing our election laws, "caging" lists, and on and on. But the NEW corporate ability to fiddle the vote INVISIBLY is, by far, the worst of the democracy-killers. Maybe it's strategically wrong to say, "START THERE." But it sure looks to me like the place to start. It is so obviously undemocratic and anti-american. And transparent vote counting--vote counting that everyone can see and understand--is about as non-partisan as you can get. It's the whole ballgame. It IS democracy.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. It's still the owners against everybody else, always has been, nothing changes.
:kick:


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