Has the choice for DU when it comes to supporting the party really come down to this...

[WCGreen]

Bindingan Choice…?

Can we live within a coalition of shared interests on many issues with perhaps conflicting opinions on a few or are we going to insist, no demand that every person who calls themselves a democrat exhibit complete fealty to what we, as a part of that coalition that won Congress for the first time in 12 years adopts as Gospel...

(BTW, look around, we can’t even agree amongst ourselves… It’s why we are democrats in the first place…We think, therefore we are...)

Remember that we live in a winner take all political system that has nothing left for the looser unless the winner so chooses to be magnanimous and allow the participation of the minority party in some matters of governing...

All you need is 50% plus one...

And since there are no “binding” votes of confidence in the US COngress, the terms expire within set time frames and not when the whims of the party or the electorate change…

If you did forget, then think back to the way things have gone over the period of January of 2001 all the way up until January of 2007 when the GOP controlledd it all...

The democrats were marginalized, completely and totally relegated to back back bench status, to use a term made popular by the British Press when describing the status of small inconsequential special interest parties in Parliament...

When Pelosi and her team, with lots of help from a ton of us on the outside, captured the House, she vowed that the process put into practices by the GOP was over and that she would not run roughshod over anyone...

From the start, before the party even actually took control of the House, compromise became associated with weakness from many who helped cobble together this winning coalition...

A sense of dissatisfaction quickly came over activists who unfairly tagged democrats with the unforgivable slogan of "Practicing Business as Usual" before a single vote was even brought to the floor...

Many of us seemed to be yearning for the straight up or down, my way or the highway nature of GOP party discipline that was viewed as leadership and “resolve” by many of this country’s “great thinkers…”

It’s not what I voted for…

Now Ms. Cindy decides to leave the party...

(Was she ever really a part of the party or was that just projection on the part of some of us who so desired an end to the Iraqi War or those of us who adopted the Machiavellian premise that the enemy of my enemy is my fiend when if comes to anything Bush...)

It's not really unexpected...

She came to politics because of the War and so she leaves the Democratic Party because of the war, a fitting split given the circumstance...

So what is the benchmark for being a democrat...?

If someone comes to the party because of one issue and then leaves when that person is not completely mollified, does that even constitute membership within a party...

Or does the true believer stay and try to change the party and ultimately work to retire the negative moniker Business as Usual...

Personally, I find the person who leaves in an impatient huff wins only one thing; a chance to once again bitch from the sidelines...

I have never completely agreed with the Democratic Party...

But after 30 years of activism, I can safely say that the Democratic Party is the worst party, unless you consider all the others...

[MADem]

1. People who want to take their ball and go home should do that.

No harm, no foul. Your last sentence certainly summed it up.

That's the great thing about being a Democrat, the party is welcoming, but they don't cut you off at the knees or threaten the lives of your loved ones if you decide to leave.

Goodbye, good luck, see ya, don't call us, we'll call you, and we've got work to do, that's pretty much the attitude. And that's healthy, IMO.

And anybody who wants the party to meet EVERY single desire of theirs has their head up their ass. It's never going to happen, unless you're an EXTREMELY rare individual who can sit there and check off the ENTIRE platform and say, not only do I agree with it, but they covered EVERY single concern about every issue I've ever had.

One issue voters, which is what these Take Ball/Go Home types are, don't care about parties, really--they only care about their one issue, and if one party doesn't hop through a hoop on it to suit them, off they go.

They're not reliable, anyway, so they're not terribly useful at the end of the day.

[WCGreen]

2. Their passion is there....

It's just motivated by one and only one issue...

[MADem]

4. Oh, certainly. And they should go to where they can validate their feelilngs, rather than

hector those of us to abandon the party where we've worked so hard for so many decades.

I just don't go for that "The party has done X. I don't like X. I'm off to join the Y Party. Everyone who doesn't like X follow ME" shit. That's just lame.

I especially dislike it when they use DEMOCRATIC Underground bandwidth to do their third party trolling. It's not kosher at any time, that's in the rules, but in the run up to an election, it's not just wrong, it's a mortal sin (to mix religious references, there!).

[WCGreen]

7. yea, me too...

But then if we all agreed all the time...

We would be republicans...

LOL

[LWolf]

9. I'm not going anywhere.

Why should I, when there is a Democrat in the race that meets ALMOST every item on my checklist?

Why, when such a Democrat is available, should I settle for less?

If there were no better candidates available, then I'd make the best of poor choices, or I'd write in someone better. Frankly, that's my assessment of the "top tier."

I think as long as I'm willing to hold my nose and vote for a poor choice in the general election, the party has no reason to offer me anything better. So I'm not going to. I'll write in a better Democrat, if I have to. I'll still be voting for a Democrat.

I'm not going anywhere. Neither am I going to offer up my vote to a candidate I don't feel is the right choice for the job.

That's a reality that the party can acknowledge, or not.

[MADem]

15. It's a good plan, too. Especially if you back up your vote with a letter to the

'major' candidate. They aren't going to know unless they're told.

They aren't mind readers, they're just politicians.

[LWolf]

31. Good suggestion.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

[leftist.]

23. "One issue voters" can suck it

Unless of course the issue is the Iraq/Iran war. Srsly, bush did that shit to me, and that's one issue I don't acquiesce on. Any other issue I'll listen to what you have to say, but the war ...

No!, Lieberman, I've run out of patience.

ps I'm a hypocrite lol

[MADem]

25. Just supposing Bush could run for another term.

And he wakes up tomorrow and decides he's antiwar, he hurries around like hell and brings the troops home.

Do you vote for him, because he ended the war?

If not, you aren't a one issue voter!!!

[Cameron27]

3. I'm sorry Cindy feels that she has to leave,

and I won't judge her for making that decision, but I'm not leaving the Democratic Party. Even my "anyone but..." candidate is better than any Republican, or third party.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. Whatever

If your party sucks and has no balls, it sucks. Call it what you will but the fact remains that the Dems are the new Bush poodles. Time to wake up and accept the fact that the Democratic party is lead by pussies who ultimatly profit from the status quo like defence contractor Fienstien.

They will huff and puff but they can't even throw out an obviously lying, criminal Atty. General. Do you honestly think they are going to take any action against Bush's so called Presidential directive that makes him supreme ruler in the event of any disaster that may befall us? Hell, they don't even know about it. They are so uninformed that they don't even understand "vote caging".

As to your idea that your party trumps your country, I'll see you in the Halliburton concentration camps.

[WCGreen]

6. If you are going to be effective in poltics....

Unless, of course you are willing to embrace anarchy, then you can't just pick up your things and go home...

IF you choose to do so, that is your choice completely...

It is, after all, a free country...

[OffWithTheirHeads]

14. Well, continuing to support Poodles. How is that working out

for you? Ending any wars? Getting the minimum wage raised? Universal healthcare? Funding for Katrina? Habeus Corpus? Torture? Spying and wiretapping? Trade agreements with labor rights? Face it, You have nothing but more of the same selling our country down the river toward third world status.

Show me where I am wrong. Name one thing that the Dems have actually accomplished to restore our country back to pre Bush standards. Not something where they took a non binding vote but where they have actually done something. Sorry, but you have the same group of lobbyiest bought and paid for losers you have had all along.

Take my toys and go home? How about taking my constitution and bill of rights and selling it to China?

It's time to wake up folks, the Dems are just another branch of corporate enabelers. How many times do they have to rub your nose in it before you figure it out?

[WCGreen]

18. You know, they have had a share of the power for what, less than

200 days...

Give 'em a little time before you throw them all under the bus...

[MADem]

27. What, and be reasonable???

Such a concept, that!!!

[Le Taz Hot]

34. What tmfun

said. I find the child analogies interesting: "take your toys and go home." Not much condescension going on here, no sirree! If you can't counter an argument, call names. It's what we did when we were 8 (but most of us grew out of it).

Country before party!

[MADem]

8. Halliburton concentration camps, eh? How melodramatic.

:rofl:

They'll have to round up all the guns first...when's that scheduled?

[WCGreen]

12. Great word...

Melodramatic....

[OffWithTheirHeads]

16. Just because you are uninformed, doesn't make you smart.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12078.htm Try this on then take a moment to google "Halliburton concentration camps" and bring yourself up to date.

Just because the creationist museum says dinosaurs were on Noah's ark doesn't make it so.

[WCGreen]

17. And just because you are overly paranoid....

Doesn't make you right...

Believe me I have read the stories and have concerns myself...

But all of these plans seemed to have been put into place when the America public was frightened and turned to a meglomaniac for comfort and found no joy...

The public wouldn't stand for it...

Bush had the trust of the majority of the American people and he blew it...

[MADem]

29. And just because you read fringe, kook shit, and take it seriously

extrapolating all sorts of nonsensical scenarios from disparate snippets of information, well, that really isn't my problem. But it does suggest I'm smarter than you are, at least with regard to verifiable sourcing of material.

See, the reason why that site's tagline is "News You Won't Find on CNN" is because their "news" is poorly sourced, paranoid shit, to a large extent.

And why, just because I don't believe your halfassed, nutcase citation, that most people here will acknowledge is a halfassed nutcase citation, you would think I would buy the Creationist argument, suggests that you failed logic class AND you don't know how to put a cogent argument together without resorting to the lame, weak "I BET YOU..." style of rebuttal that someone who's got nuttin' likes to employ.

You want sources? You'd get better info from the GLOBE--and I'm not talking the Boston Globe, either.

What's the latest on BATBOY, anyone know?

[John Q. Citizen]

10. The Dems controlled the Senate from 1996 until 2002. (Jan 2003)

I was born a Democrat, worked in McGovern's campaign in high school before I was old enough to vote, and have worked (volunteered) in many campaigns since.

However, I don't have much party loyalty. I vote Democrat and work in campaigns because of my own self interest and my world view. Usually Dems are closest to those. I'm not voting for Baucus in 2008 (US Senate) because he's a DINO. I won't vote for the Repo either, and failing a decent alternative , I'll just skip it. And I will encourage others to do the same.

The Dems are just as culpable as the Repos when it comes to any system at all which would allow for any kind of electoral pluralism other than a strict and literal adherence to the two party system. As a result, 3rd parties are doomed to fail. (as you note) I resent that. For instance, both parties have outlawed fusion voting in most states, except a couple, New York most notably. Neither party seriously promotes instant runoff voting, or any other scheme that promotes more democracy.

I do not in the least resent anyone for leaving the party, for running a third party campaign, or for not voting. In fact, I blame the two major parties for the fact the majority of eligible voter don't vote. They wised up, they know that we have a form of "managed democracy" and that they don't participate is probably due to better sense and greater honesty than I have.

Most of all, I know that the leaders of both major parties, in general, have a lot more in common with each other than they do with me.

I am considering changing my registration to independent, because I can't see a heck of a lot of advantage to being a registered Democrat. Since both major parties tend to take their base for granted and often shape there policies to appeal to independents, there might actually be an advantage to registering independent.

[WCGreen]

13. Correct....

But you have to have both houses in order to control the process...

At least from a legistlatve POV...

And we really don't control the Senate now do we what with Joe Lieberman in there with his pivitol vote...

[Doctor_J]

33. Seems like the GOP is doing an excellent job of controlling everything

without the House or Senate. Nice try though.

[illinoisprogressive]

11. Excellent post and agreed.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. K&R...

Beautifully put, as usual...

[leftist.]

20. Democrats are shit, but in a two party system ...

And that's really the debate, isn't it. In a two party system, I'm voting Democrat EVERY TIME ... and I hate the fuckers! Let's get that straight. They are fucking up on every front. But you want to form a third party? Cause it's not going to happen. Not in THIS greatest nation on god's green earth (sarcasm). So I'll work with what I've got until such time as I decide to move to a different country.

k thx bai.

[WCGreen]

21. Pretty much what I was saying....

But as I get older and supposedly wiser (not the word supposedly), I realize that life is a series of small mostly small victories and small defeats...

We have lived through one of the worst times in American history, when tragedy struck our country and the man put in charge simply wasn't up to the task...

That is the bottom line...

Leaders can either rise to the occasion or sink to their guttural nature...

This guy definitely took the low road...

[leftist.]

22. Good post, thx!

>> But as I get older and supposedly wiser
>> I realize that life is a series of small
>> mostly small victories and small defeats...

Yup, and good post :)

If you are a vehement leftist like I am or even if you are just a big fucking liberal, you still aren't going to win every round. That being said, in a two party system I'm voting DEMOCRAT!!!!!!!! If Cindy Sheehan succeeds in starting a new party I'll change my vote but until then ... the Dems are so much fucking easier to work with then the repubs!

Bye Cindy and good fucking riddance! I hope your books sell!

[welshTerrier2]

24. i'm thinking of leaving the party

i haven't decided yet.

kudos to the OP. I may not agree with all of it but I think it's both valid and well stated.

I think some may make false assumptions about people who "leave the party." If I choose to do so, this does NOT mean that I would vote against selected Democrats. My Congressman is Jim McGovern. I think he's great. My Senators are Kennedy and Kerry. Both voted against this latest Iraq madness. I respect that very deeply. Kerry will likely get a primary opponent the next time he runs. It's way too early for me to know how I'll vote.

In considering whether to leave the Party, my first reason is that I feel that the Party has badly betrayed my values on one of the most important issues. It's probably not worth getting into a big debate about Iraq funding in this thread. I only raised the issue to explain my feelings about the Party. I will not remain on my town's Democratic Committee. I will not give money to the various Democratic Congressional committees or even to the DNC. Those are catch-all fundraising buckets and I don't want to contribute to the campaigns of right-wing, pro-war Democrats. I have funded these organizations in the past; those days are over at least for now. I also have sent money to candidates all over the country if I shared their values. This makes much more sense to me.

For some time now, I've accepted the PDA "don't leave; fix it" meme. The thing is, after this last vote on Iraq funding, it's hard to associate myself through my party registration with a party that can vote for more war.

The real problem I see here goes well beyond just one vote on one issue. I'm afraid that those who run the Party are badly out of touch. I call; I write; I get very little back. When was the last time your Democratic Senator or Congressman held forums somewhere near to where you live? Frankly, open discussions and the free exchange of ideas between elected representatives and their constituents is the lifeblood of democracy. There's been precious little of that. I would ask you to expound on just how much democracy there is in our party.

Could I do more? Could I be more effective? Could we all do more? In the end, I cannot understand that those sworn to uphold our democracy don't push for greater opportunities to meet with their constituents. And, when you combine that with this last heinous bit on Iraq, these are truly trying times. Something must be done to change our party. It's not clear that automatically giving them our votes and our money regardless of how they perform is the best way to do that. Sadly, I'm not really sure what is ...

[WCGreen]

30. Dennis Kucinnich is my congresscritter.....

So I know exactly where he stands...

[Totally Committed]

32. Once again, I couldn't have said it better:

The real problem I see here goes well beyond just one vote on one issue. I'm afraid that those who run the Party are badly out of touch. I call; I write; I get very little back. When was the last time your Democratic Senator or Congressman held forums somewhere near to where you live? Frankly, open discussions and the free exchange of ideas between elected representatives and their constituents is the lifeblood of democracy. There's been precious little of that. I would ask you to expound on just how much democracy there is in our party.

Could I do more? Could I be more effective? Could we all do more? In the end, I cannot understand that those sworn to uphold our democracy don't push for greater opportunities to meet with their constituents. And, when you combine that with this last heinous bit on Iraq, these are truly trying times. Something must be done to change our party. It's not clear that automatically giving them our votes and our money regardless of how they perform is the best way to do that. Sadly, I'm not really sure what is ...

Ditto.

TC

[Big Pappa]

26. Which thread was it

that called her an attention whore.

[sampsonblk]

28. The party has left us.

nt