if chavez is so great

[sabbat hunter]

then why did he shut down the one nationwide TV station that voices opposition to him and his policies? that is not a wise or good thing to do at all. in fact it is a terrible thing to do. it violates free speech

"It was the largest of several protests that broke out across Caracas hours after Radio Caracas Television ceased broadcasting at midnight Sunday and was replaced with a new state-funded channel. Chavez had refused to renew RCTV's broadcast license, accusing it of "subversive" activities and of backing a 2002 coup against him.

At least three protesters and one police officer were injured in skirmishes. Some protesters were seen in television footage hurling spent tear gas canisters back at police.

Office workers poured out of buildings to join student protesters, while organizers called for the demonstration to remain peaceful. RCTV talk show host Miguel Angel Rodriguez led the crowd in chants of, "They will not silence us!" "


what is this a TV station must agree with the government or be shut down? WTF?


i hope chavez sees the error of his ways and lets the station broadcast once again.

http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_6008521


opposing view points are a GOOD thing. it is a part of a functioning democracy.

[BlackHawk706867]

1. There is a however to your post though...

The same radio station that was shut down, was involved in the attempted Coup d'état of the Chavez Government. I do agree with you that terminating freedom of speech is not a good thing though, but I also wonder if the US Government had it's hands in this very TV station!

ww

[Demeter]

2. There's a Line Between Freedom of Speech and Treason

and I think this country will soon come to that line, too.

[Flatulo]

27. Is the definition of treason the same there as it is here?

Our constitution defines Treason as "high crimes and misdemeanors" and "giving aid and comfort to the enemy"

Unless someone here can cite Venezuelan law on this issue, we are really just guessing as to the legality of this move.

Of course, as I've noted elsewhere, lots of people here would gleefully shut down FNC in a heartbeat, so I don't expect these folks to have much sympathy for RCTV.

[John Q. Citizen]

3. Because they violated their license requirements. They shut down pirate radio stations in the

US every day. And they prosecute the people who ran them. I don't hear you complaining about our free speech.

In fact, shutting down the station was mild. This particular station participated in the treasonuos coup attempt against the democratically elected government.

Here the owners would be shipped to Gitmo.

So celebrate the mild response and the restraint shown by the Chavez administration, and quit your bitchin....

[sabbat hunter]

9. this isnt a pirate radio station

this is a TV station that dared to voice opposition to Chavez and in his word "support capitalism"

they were accused of supporting (not being involved or participating in) a coup against Chavez in 2002. because they dared to air the opposition not because they aired programs saying people should support the coup.

supporting the opposition does not equal participating in a coup attempt.

first chavez gets dictatorial powers from the venzuelan congress, now he shuts down a TV/Radio station that dares oppose him

what is next?


also i remind you that chavez himself tried to overthrow an elected government in a coup. so only he is allowed to get away with these things?

additionally since the opposition parties sat out the last elections, Chavez and his party ran unopposed so i really wouldnt call that democracy in action.

Finally Chavez is trying to change the constitution so he can run for office again and again (Right now he is prohibited by their constitution) if bush tried to do this there would be cries (and rightly so) of him trying to upsurp the constitution and make himself dictator. how is chavez doing htis any different? just because he calls himself a socialist?

[jefferson_dem]

22. Oh Lord! Two posts in a row, here at my beloved DU, that chant the "treason" line...

...the last refuge of scoundrels.

It's sad that so many seem so willing to sacrifice principles at the alter of Hugo.

[MonkeyFunk]

35. but why seize the station

five years after the fact, and seize its transmitters, towers, etc. and turn it into a government-run station?

Why not sell it? Why not prosecute those who actually broke the law?

[Joe Chi Minh]

4. So... as an upright American, in good standing, nay, the best of standing,

you want to preach to Chavez about instituting a functioning democracy? Few world leaders can have been be so fortunate as to drink at the well of your bountiful wisdom.

What about the savage repression against protestors, eh? No mention... WTH. I'm sure it would remind us all of Pinochet and the School of America's finest.

[sabbat hunter]

12. the did squash protesters

in Venezuela

there were people protesting the closing of the TV station,

" On Monday, at least 10 students were injured in clashes with security forces. National Guard units fired tear gas on students at several colleges in Caracas and Valencia, and national media reported that some of the injured also had bullet wounds."


even other socialist governments say chavez is wrong

" Chile's governing Socialist Party compared the closure of RCTV to the censorship during Augusto Pinochet's dictatorship (1973-90). The governments of Peru, Colombia and Mexico have also criticized the refusal to renew the licence."

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/americas/news/article_1310754.php/More_protests_against_closure_of_TV_station_in_Venezuela

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

5. You never seemed to mind when Israel was bombing Palestinian TV stations

amazing that you are so concerned now about "free speech" of a TV station that supported an illegal military coup, supported by the Bush regime.

[sabbat hunter]

10. when did i ever

support israel bombing a palestinian TV station?

[Tom Joad]

13. Maybe you could correct me. Do you actually oppose the targeting by the IDF of Palestinian media?

Would you like to express some concern now?

http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2002/West_Bank_june02/West_Bank_june02.html

It looks a lot worse than losing a license.

[sabbat hunter]

17. i also want to know

was this palestinian TV station just voicing opposition to israel or did they say that palestinians should commit terrorist acts against israel?

that is a big difference.

if they just voiced opposition and called for israel to withdraw from gaza and the west bank that is acceptable. but if they tell people to blow themselves and civilians up that is never acceptable.

not to mention this from the article you cited

"At least some of the missing equipment was taken by Palestinian youths, who entered the offices left unlocked by the departing troops and stole cameras and other equipment, say Abdullah and several of his colleagues at Al-Quds. But most of the damage to equipment appeared to be the work of Israeli troops, he adds.

The studio on Al-Quds campus "was used as a safe haven for Palestinian snipers, perpetrating terrorist attacks at Israeli target"

so how do we really know how much damage was done by the IDF and how much was done by palestinian looters?

if this studio was used by snipers, terrorists then it most certainly should be shut down.

if the TV station in venezuala actively participated in the coup attempt then it should be shut. however if all they did was voice support for the coup or opposition to Chavez (and the latter seems likely from every source i have seen) then they should remain open.

[Tom Joad]

23. Why should a tv station be allowed to support a violent overthrow

of a popular president?

Would you think that a tv station here be allowed to support the violent overthrow of an unpopular president? Do you think even a local cable station would get away with that here?

[Enrique]

6. because they helped kidnap him

[sabbat hunter]

14. proof? link?

any proof or link to that accusation that the TV station was actively involved in his kidnapping or just baseless accusations?

[On the Road]

18. The Station Freely Admitted It

when it appeared that the coup was successful. There's reallt not much of a debate.

[sabbat hunter]

26. once again

i ask for a link.

was it that they supported the coup/opposition or did they actively participate in the coup?

[On the Road]

39. It's Not All That Hard to Find

Here's something from The Nation:

All this helps explain why, in the days leading up to the April coup, Venevisión, RCTV, Globovisión and Televen replaced regular programming with relentless anti-Chávez speeches, interrupted only for commercials calling on viewers to take to the streets: "Not one step backward. Out! Leave now!" The ads were sponsored by the oil industry, but the stations carried them free, as "public service announcements."

They went further: On the night of the coup, Cisneros's station played host to meetings among the plotters, including Carmona. The president of Venezuela's broadcasting chamber co-signed the decree dissolving the elected National Assembly. And while the stations openly rejoiced at news of Chávez's "resignation," when pro-Chávez forces mobilized for his return a total news blackout was imposed.

Izarra says he received clear instructions: "No information on Chávez, his followers, his ministers, and all others that could in any way be related to him." He watched with horror as his bosses actively suppressed breaking news. Izarra says that on the day of the coup, RCTV had a report from a US affiliate that Chávez had not resigned but had been kidnapped and jailed. It didn't make the news. Mexico, Argentina and France condemned the coup and refused to recognize the new government. RCTV knew but didn't tell.

When Chávez finally returned to the Miraflores Palace, the stations gave up on covering the news entirely. On one of the most important days in Venezuela's history, they aired Pretty Woman and Tom & Jerry cartoons. "We had a reporter in Miraflores and knew that it had been retaken by the Chávistas," Izarra says. " the information blackout stood. That's when it was enough for me, and I decided to leave."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030303/klein

And from a more leftist source:

During the dramatic days leading up to the April 2002 coup d’etat, Venevisión, RCTV, Globovisión and Televen substituted their regular programming with non-stop vitriolic anti-Chávez propaganda, which some of their staff later acknowledged as unprofessional behavior. This relentless barrage was interrupted by commercials sponsored by the oil industry management urging TV viewers to go into the streets. Inflammatory ads blaring, “Not one step backward. Out! Leave now!” were carried by the stations as public service announcements. Later on the day of the coup, Cisneros allowed his television station Venevision to serve as the meeting place for anti-Chávez coup plotters. Reportedly, interim coup president Pedro Carmona was present.

---snip

After Chávez’s fall, the coup leaders appeared on TV thanking the media for its assistance. For their part, the stations cheered Chávez’s “resignation.” However, after huge numbers of pro-Chávez supporters had been mobilized and were marching downtown, the media imposed a news blackout. Instead, the media broadcasted non-stop soap operas and cartoons. Meanwhile, during the brief Carmona regime, the government-sponsored Venezolana de Television was taken off the air when police forces loyal to Carmona occupied the Chávez loyalist station. Independent TV stations such as Catia TV and TV Caricuao reported that their offices were raided by pro-coup police who detained their staff, and confiscated their equipment.


http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/1031/1/91/

[Enrique]

25. see yurbud's post #7

there's footage of their broadcasts during the coup. you'll agree it's outrageous. After watching the footage, then a good place to start the discussion would be to ask, suppose Fox News behaved this way after Bill Clinton was kidnapped. On regaining power due to popular support, what should Clinton's stance toward Fox News be?

[yurbud]

7. what would we do if a network backed military coup here, then went on TV & bragged about it? VIDEO

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OVMwZwtG6s">90 second video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OVMwZwtG6s">



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144">Documentary on coup

[Joe Chi Minh]

8. Different rules, remember? Chief Sitting Bull's wise words.

[Benhurst]

Thanks for the links.

:thumbsup:

[sabbat hunter]

30. first link doesnt work

second one is a bit long to watch at work will try to watch it tonight.

[yurbud]

45. That doc starts out a bit slow, but when it gets to build up for coup, you'll be riveted

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OVMwZwtG6s

[fasttense]

11. When the Fox News channel helped the bushes stage a coup

here in the US after the presidential elections in November 2000 with the dancing supremes putting their seal of approval on it, no one seemed to mind. And no one shut down the Fox noise channel.

Makes you wonder if there might be illegal uses for fake news programs.

[uberllama42]

21. For one thing, the GOP/FNC coup was successful

The shady activity of crooked political operatives in the US is generally couched in different language than similar activities in South America. The public perceives such things as distinct because of their different context. People are very apt to deny that such things go on in this country. No one wants to believe it, because we've all been lied to about the integrity of our democracy for out entire lives.

[Hippo_Tron]

15. Are you sure it's the only nationwide TV station that voices opposition to him?

Last I checked there are several private TV stations in Venezuela, none of which particularly like him. I could be wrong about that, though.

Personally I don't think Chavez's policies are going to be particularly effective in the long run, but the people of Venezuela can make that judgment for themselves in a few years.

[sabbat hunter]

19. it is the only nationwide station

there are other TV outlets, none of which have the coverage of the shuttered station.


chavez's plans will be in a lot of trouble if oil prices fall or if the oil completely dries up. he is using hte oil revenue to support his policies.

[Hippo_Tron]

24. Oil Prices aren't going to fall anytime soon

There's increased demand from the developing world and Americans can't seem to wrap our heads around the fact that we're not the only ones who want oil anymore.

And as far as the oil running out, I'd venture to say that Venezuela's oil will outlast Chavez's administration.

[Flatulo]

33. FYI - Venezuela has a 200 year reserve with a break-even price of $30 a barrel. n/t

[uberllama42]

16. I'm more concerned about the fact that Chavez now rules by dictum

The station did participate in a military coup attempt, so I think the Venezualan government is justified in shutting them down. But we should all remember that Chavez has turned himself into a media baron in that country. He really is stifling the democratic system that elected him.

He has a mandate to make big changes in his country and to bring justice to the oppressed people of Venezuala. But coercing the legislators in the parliament to grant blanket approval for everything he wants to do for 18 months is a gross abuse of that mandate.

Chavez is courageous in his stand against Bush and the oil companies. But the fact that he is trying to make things better for the Venezualan people who elected him does not justify a power grab. Maneuvers like that are wrong when Bush does them, or when Putin does them, when Chavez or when any leader does them. Moral consistency demands that we object to Chavez when the situation dictates.

[Tom Joad]

20. It's amazing that the Bush regime, the one that planned to bomb Al-Jazeera

in Qatar, the one that supports the deadly attacks against journalists in Iraq, that silently watches journalist being attacked in Palestine... it is supporting the cause of this extremist tv station. Under the guise of "protecting free speech".

[Demeter]

28. That's Because "Irony" Isn't Spoken Here n/t

[NoPasaran]

29. It seems to me

That if the station did participate in a coup in 2002 maybe he should have shut them down back then, rather than let them continue to pose a danger to the public security and tranquility for FIVE MORE YEARS. Or maybe his motives are more complex?

[sabbat hunter]

31. well now

he is closing down a second opposition TV station, globalvision, alleging they tried to assasinate him.


dont they have due process in venezuela?

[Flatulo]

32. I believe I've discovered a new fundamental principle...

Anything Chavez does is OK. Anyone who opposes him is a traitor.

If he starts lining up his opposition and shooting them, it will be done to thunderous applause by some here.

Cognizant dissonace is an amazing human trait.

[Mutineer]

36. Amen to that.

The man is dangerous. I don't care if he doesn't like Bush as much as I do, that still doesn't make him what he is: a whackjob who is systematically expanding his control over the government, the media, the oil industry and anything else he can get his hands on in that country. He is not a man to be admired in any way, shape, or form. Unless of course, you have a thing for dictators.

[Psephos]

40. Now you're learning

Remember, it's not *what* acts are committed, it's *who* commits them. Those on the approved list are allowed to do pretty much anything they want, secure that their apologists will explain it all away.

And if it's particularly tough to explain something that looks exactly like rule by decree and authoritarian quashing of opposing voices, you can always change the subject and rant about Bush, and how the fact that Bush is President of the U.S. means a progressive here is disqualified from criticizing any other government.

Look upthread for plenty of examples.

:eyes:

[Malidictus Maximus]

44. There are people here who would be ecstatic

if Rush was forced off the air, as sad as that is.
I mean I hate the fat bastard and think anyone who listens to him for anything other than laughs is a moron, but there is no such thing as too much free speech; there is no such thing as a viewpoint that shouldn't be heard. The ONLY legitimate solution to speech you don't like is MORE free speech. *EVERY* viewpoint should be available to everybody, everywhere.

[NoPasaran]

34. I hear they showed a music video that displeased the Jefe Supremo

God help us if Chavez ever gets a broadband connection and starts watching YouTube.

Anyway, due process is so counter-revolutionary.

[nealmhughes]

37. The station was not "seized." It was shut down due to the expiration of its operating license.

Evidently, Venezuela has a licensing program just as does the rest of the world for transmission, and liceneses are periodically up for renewal. Given the CRTV's stance during the mini coup, Chavez's government chose not to renew it, opting to put on public broadcasting in its allotment of frequency.

Big difference between "seizing" and not renewing.

The private media in Venezuela are in open rebellion against the government, to the point of abetting the attempted coup. They are lucky they only didn't get their license renewed. Imagine if CBS were to urge the US to open an armed conflict against the US government, and then their license came up for renewal at their several stations -- and the government were in charge of the FCC? Now imagine if all the Big 4 were doing the same thing. That is what is analagous to the situation in Caracas and the rest of the country.

Here is what Reuters had to say in its closing article portion:

"For years, Venezuela's television stations were virulently anti-Chavez and openly supported the 2002 putsch that briefly ousted him. But more recently the media have slowly started falling in line with the increasingly powerful government.
Chavez's government announced on Saturday it had renewed the broadcast license of four other television stations, including Venevision, which the government said committed many of the same crimes that were used to deny a license to RCTV."

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN2621739620070526?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&pageNumber=2

That is from Reuters, not from Democracy Now or SDA. . . Reuters.

I wish people would read the entire source documents and not listen to the TV to get a full flavor the what happened. The Googles help.

[Igel]

41. Actually, you're partially right.

But the part you're right about doesn't matter. Chavez also didn't seize the broadcasters pets or their cars.

The transmitters were to be seized--this was reported a couple of days ago. A minute after the private station was off the air, the government station was on the air, using the now-nationalized ("democratized", in Chavez' warped expression). It was reported today that soldiers were already at the transmission towers and facilities the evening of the former owner's last day--to prevent any destruction of almost-state-owned property, or maybe because it's a way of showing power. It provides a ready-made platform.

However, the station also has cable and satellite services; so the offices were apparently not seized. Presumably the production facilities and broadcast studios weren't seized, either, although I'm not sure how they managed the quick-switch between signal sources.

[MrPrax]

38. They didn't shut it down...

RCTV was simply not renewed so the government could run another 'broadcaster' called TVes.

Virtually all of this lamer agit-prop consistently misses that point as well as the fact RCTV can still broadcast on cable and satellite!

From your OWN link:

The new public channel, TVES, launched its transmissions early Monday with artists singing pro-Chavez music, then carried an exercise program and a talk show, interspersed with government ads proclaiming, "Now Venezuela belongs to everyone."

Thousands of government supporters reveled in the streets as they watched the midnight changeover on large TV screens, seeing RCTV's signal go black and then be replaced by a TVES logo. Others launched fireworks and danced in the streets.

Why are you missing that part? Did you like the old owners of RCTV or something...what does it matter? They'll still get their soap operas.

So there was a Brooks Brothers Riot -- big deal. At least Chavez didn't do what Rafael Caldera did. Massacring people over IMF riots? 300 alone in 1989. Chavez hasn't actually done that yet?

I don't mind propaganda, but some of it lately has been pretty low-rent. The detractors might find it helpful if they acted genuinely concerned about such things as 'free speech' and 'press freedom' and all that jazz.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. If Chavez is so bad...

wouldn't he be shutting down all opposition, and not just revoking the license of station(s) that actually broke the law?