Muslims & Christians & the War on Terror

[CJCRANE]

There is something very strange about the War on Terror that not many people have noticed and I think that has to do with unfamiliarity with Islam and the Middle East...

so to illustrate my point I'm going to use a hypothetical situation...

Let's say a muslim country is attacked by Catholic terrorists. In retaliation the muslim country attacks a Protestant country that had nothing to do with it. Also the leader of the muslim country has very strong business and political links with the Catholic countries even though most of the terrorists and financing seem to come from those countries. And every time the muslim leader wants to attack a country in retaliation he picks a Protestant country.

Wouldn't you think that was strange?

:shrug:

[SoonerPride]

1. Religion causes pain

The plain fact is all religion, of every stripe and kind, needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Thw world's religions bring pain, suffering, division, disharmony and anguish to the people of this planet.

Sorry, but them's the facts.

[CJCRANE]

4. It isn't really about religion.

It's about power blocs. Bushco has sided with the absolute monarchies against the shi'ite/secular countries. The whole war on terror is a smokescreen. Some of the freepers woke up when the Republicans tried to sell American ports to Dubai and they saw that the whole RW muslim-bashing thing was a hoax and/or the Repubs had sold out.

[Flatulo]

6. Unfortunately, radical Muslims who are killing people all over the world

*do* think it is about religion. I'm talkng about places like the Phillipines and Thailand, where there is really no US presence to speak of.

Christians are being butchered there in ever more barbaric ways. These acts have nothing to do with US imperialism or power blocs. It just pure religeous fanatacism.

[CJCRANE]

10. I didn't dispute that.

There have always been muslim fundamentalists, I agree. But the question is - do the Bush-Cheney policies increase it or decrease it? Or even worse do they actually exacerbate it and exploit if for their own gain?

[Flatulo]

14. All religious cults seem to have a siege mentality...

They are always lusting after their Armageddon so they get on with the whole afterlife thing.

I think Bush has accelerated the rate of confrontation with the radical Islamists, but it has been brewing since the Crusades.

[CJCRANE]

17. Maybe

I sometimes think he's in league with them though (perhaps unwittingly), that's sort of the point I'm trying to get across. It seems to me his actions are making America weaker.

[Flatulo]

20. That would reinforce my 'incompetence' theory. He's playing

right into the radicals' hands with the game of endless war.

He's confirming what the masses there hear from their religious leaders - that America is on a crusade and wants the ME's resources. It doesn't even matter whether it is true or not - it's enough if they believe it is.

The scary thing is, I really don't know what to do about Jihadists. I know they exist, and I know they are a relatively minor threat to us. But they seem to grow stronger if you attack them, and if you ignore them, like some countries have, they see it as weakness and press the advantage.

[Flatulo]

2. I think I get your analogy...

The 9/11 hijackers came mostly from Saudi Arabia, but we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. Is that where you're going?

If so, I think the analogy has one major flaw - even though the attackers were (mostly) Saudi, the Saudi government did not endorse or in any direct way sponsor the hijackers, which Afghanistan did. Their nationality was irrelevent. We went after the government that enabled them.

Having said all that, and to get to your original point, religion sure has caused a world of grief for mankind, and I think the real troubles are only starting.

I would love it if logic and reason could prevail over religeous fanatacism, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[CJCRANE]

3. I think you need to look into

where the actual money came from for 9/11 (i.e. the $100,000s which were wired to the hijackers).

And as for Afghanistan - that was a sideshow - Bushco never seriously went after Bin Laden.

[Flatulo]

5. I understand that *lots* of money has flowed from SA to jihadists...

Which is why I was careful to say that it was not the *official* policy of the SA gov to fund terrorists.

As far as Bushco and bin Laden - the left can't have it both ways.

Either Bush was incompetent and let him get away, or Bush needs a bogeyman and lets him stay free, but it can't be both.

I personally favor the incompetence theory, since it fits so well with everything else he has pulled.

[CJCRANE]

7. I don't speak for "the left"!

And as for the whole "Bush is incompetent" theory - I don't buy that because Cheney is in charge not Bush.

However I agree with you that the SA govt wasn't involved. But we only have to remember Iran/Contra to see how backchannels can be used quite effectively by the Repubs to get what they want.

[Flatulo]

8. Yep, it's the backroom stuff. Plausible deniability.

[Brassballs]

9. The muslims Vs. hindus fight goes on after 13 centuries, the

muslims Vs. jews fight goes on after 14 centuries...now
it is time for the christians to join the fight. Who will
be next? The budhists?

[CJCRANE]

11. But isn't about muslims vs christians.

You're being played. Many of the Neo-Republicans will be relaxing by the pool in Dubai by the time you've figured it out.

[Brassballs]

22. The rich Dubai muslims do not follow the islamic fundie mentality

Please go to a good library and study history of
ancient countries such as Persia, India & Palestine.
You will "discover" that there has always been a small
faction of muslims who take the quran to its extreme.

So you are correct in that the fight is not between all
muslims Vs all anything. It is between the extreme
fundamentalist islamics vs. everybody. Al Qaeda &
Taliban are examples of these type of people. The
Dubai muslims are not.

[Flatulo]

12. If we banned all religions tomorrow, people would invent new ones...

TIME did a cover story a few years ago about the evolution of religious beliefs. They claimed that there was a genetic predisposition, weak in most, but strong in some, to believe very strongly in a creator.

I do not have such a gene.

[Brassballs]

24. I am also an evolutionist as opposed to a creationist...

The main problem as I see it is that there are a few percent
of population out there that are quite susceptible to brain
washing into believing some extreme views sold under the name
of religion. If your "religious book" says you must convert all
non-believers to this faith with force if necessary then they
will believe it. If they are told that by sacrificing your own
life in this process you will ascend to heaven and get the use
of 72 beautiful virgins, they believe it.

So th eproblem is not religions per se, it is the easily brain
washed people.

[CJCRANE]

27. I don't buy the whole 72 virgins thing

as a motivation. The 9/11 hijackers took cocaine, hired call-girls, went to strip joints etc etc. They enjoyed all the earthly pleasures to excess. Studies of suicide bombers have shown that they were mostly politically motivated by occupation of their land.

[Brassballs]

29. yes they enjoyed the earthly pleasures and wanted more...

much more, cheaper and more pretty women...for EVER!!
That is an enormous enticement IMO. But you can opine
differently and you are entitled to it.

[CJCRANE]

30. Except they would have broken all the rules

and wouldn't get to paradise! (On edit: and they would know that. The 72 virgins thing is just a talking point, there is no proof that it motivates anyone - I've never heard it mentioned by muslims).

You're forgetting there are a billion muslims - if they all believed that it was that easy there wouldn't be many left.

[Brassballs]

33. Out of the Billion+ muslims, thankfully only a few million are militant

islamists. And learning from past history, the problem
of militant islamic terrorism will be here for many more
centuries.

[CJCRANE]

34. Let's look at who invaded who

in the last few years...I think that will show us who's militant.

There were 19 hijackers on 9/11 - there are nearly 200,000 coalition troops in Iraq - you do the math.

(By the way I also believe that 9/11 was helped along by Bush-Cheney and their buddies so the picture is even worse than it seems).

[Flatulo]

37. The numbers don't mean much to me... those 19 kids did damage

way out of proportion to their numbers. It was one of the most cost-effective military attacks in history. For a few hundred grand, they did $60 billion in property damage and killed 3000 human beings. We spend more than that to snuff one Iraqi insurgent.

No offense, but I personally don't pay much attention the conspiracy theories. I'd rather not go there right now, because it's all been covered ad nauseum. I don't hold out much hope of convincing anyone to change there opionion based on my feeble arguments and observations.

I will mention that I am a degreed structural engineer (WPI, class of '77) and can definitively state that structural steel does indeed lose most of its strength at temps as low as 600 degrees F, Rosie O'Donnell non-withstanding.

[ieoeja]

25. What Jews were they fighting 14 centuries ago?

The last Jewish state was destroyed by pagans centuries before Muhammad was born. The first pitched battle between a Muslim army and a Jewish army took place in 1948.

Also, the Muslim/Christian fight dates back almost to the inception of Islam. Before the rise of Islam, what we call the Middle East today consisted of Pagan Arabian city-states, Pagan/Zorastrian Persia, and the Christian Byzantine Empire. I believe the actual order of battle against Islam goes....

Muslim vs Pagan (Arabia then Persia)
Muslim vs Zoroastrian (Persia)
Muslim vs Christian (Byzantine Empire)
Muslim vs Hindu (Indian sub-continent)
Muslim vs Jew (Israel since 1948)

I would accept pushing back the beginning of the Muslim/Jew conflict to the loss of the Palestine Protectorate by the Ottoman Empire to the British Empire. The two groups did begin sniping at each other then. And guerilla forces from both sides were increasingly active in British Palestine from the end of World War II.

[CJCRANE]

26. People fight people.

This list makes it look like the only culture to ever start a war was Islam. It works both ways.

60 million civilians died in WWII - mostly Europeans killed by other Europeans. Muslims don't have a monopoly on violence.

(Dont' get me started on Rwanda etc).

[Brassballs]

31. Your jewish history is superior to mine...

I know a bit more about history of India since I went
to high school there, and a bit about persia since my
first girl friend was a persian whose ancestors had to
flee Persia due to religious persecution by muslims.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Yes

it would be very strange. I would add that the MAJORITY of Muslims, Catholics, and Protestants don't condone the violence. But the tiny minority that do are given all the air time on MSM so that the impression given is that theirs is the majority voice.

[Flatulo]

15. I work with many Muslim professionals and they are, to the last one,

among the nicest people I have ever met. Not a radical bone in any of their bodies. Most came here to make some money and try to enjoy a little more freedom than they were getting in the old country.

Most of them also feel that Bush has set back their cause by 600 years or so.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Oh yeah

most brothers and sisters I know are keeping a verrrry low profile right now. BTW, welcome to DU! :hi:

[Flatulo]

21. Oh, thank you, I just noticed your username.

Most of my Muslim friends here are Turks, but we have quite a few Iranians as well. We seem to have hired almost every Ph.D Turkey ever produced.

[Brassballs]

23. Did your fellow muslims have a comment about the attack on 911?

Was that the beginning point of US response to islamic
radicals attacking US targets? Do your fellow muslim
workers blame Bush for organizing 911? Have your fellow
muslims ever organized a march in OPPOSITION to islamic
inspired terrorism?

Just curious....

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. Yes

The head of my Sufi Order, Pir Zia Inayat Khan, gave a public lecture in Madison WI in November, 2001, and addressed the whole matter, quoting the works of his grandfather, Hazrat Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, which talked of tolerance for others and finding peace within yourself so that you can create peace with others. Although our Order, like most Sufi orders, doesn't mix in politics, all members are encouraged to participate politically; most of my brothers and sisters I know have marched in demonstrations -- my dear sister Yasmin and I have taken part in many of the local demonstrations, along with my husband.

Over 600 imams issued a statement condemning terrorism--it can be found in the archives of the Muslim/Islam group here, as well as other interesting articles.

[Brassballs]

32. Great to hear, unfortunately it does not get much attention in MSM

and therefore it keeps it in the shadows.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

36. Oh yes, that is their point

the MSM is not interested in painting the complex picture of Islam today. They'd rather feed masses the stereotype that all Muslims are violent terrorists. This is an issue that we have been working on, even here at DU--one reason for the Muslim/Islam board.

[Flatulo]

35. Well first of all, these are highly educated professionals, so it's not...

a valid sample, and I can't speak for all of them, but one particularly close Turkish friend was quite liberal in his religious beliefs. We talked religion quite a bit and agreed that the best way to embrace religion is to treat the Bible/Koran/whatever as a guidebook to look to for moral rules that people could draw upon for guidance in how to deal with others in a civil society. I know for a fact that he did not interpret the Koran as the literal, exclusive truth, but rather a series of beautiful texts from which one could draw lessons in morality.

After 9/11 I would say that most of them felt that things could get difficult for Muslims living here. None of them, to my knowledge, has experienced any persecution since 9/11, but again, they work in an environment of highly educated engineering/scientist types. Also, I live in Mass, which is a pretty liberal state. We hardly ever form lynch mobs here.

I know for sure that there are no conspiracy theorists among them. They believe that it was a hateful act by fanatics and that bin Laden is a criminal who needs to be brought to justice. They also feel that the Iraq invasion was a very bad thing.

I can't say if any of them have marched in opposition to Islamic violence.

Oddly enough, I have some born-again Christian friends at work as well, and they absolutely believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and we're all descended from Adam and Eve. 100% literal interpretation. No room for compromise or discussion. Oh well, at least they don't blow themselves up, but they are quite intolerant of any other viewpoints.

[CJCRANE]

16. I agree.

The point I'm trying to make is more for lurking freepers than DUers. The RW blogosphere demonizes muslims for domestic propaganda purposes to justify their warmongering. But the war on terror has nothing to do with islam or christianity or democracy. It's simply geo-strategic plundering.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. And what better way to hoodwink the public

than to play on ignorance and prejudice?