It's the employers who cause illegal immigration!

[dmosh42]

I watched some of the immigration debate today, and among the speakers was Sen Claire McCaskill of Missouri. Finally, someone who understands, or is not taking payoffs! Her position was that if we enforced the existing laws, employers could be jailed for six months for hiring illegals! She stated that without spending another penny, if we followed up on this part of our laws, the tide would be reversed almost overnight. If there's no way to make money, they wouldn't come. How simple is that! She was a prosecutor, so understands what is enforceable. But my own opinion is what she said will fall on deaf ears due to the depth of corruption from the executive branch on down to Congress. Corporations rule!

[Athens30603]

1. Well, maybe...

Some would still come in order to have babies born in the US. That's understandable considering that anyone born on US soil is automatically a citizen and, therefore, subject to the benefits of citizenship and the protections of citizenship.

Still, I've always had this gut feeling that those who endorse "guest worker" programs and other hoo-ha are really just defending the right of employers to pay slave wages to a people that are too weak politically and socially to do anything about it.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Interesting conundrum

- can employers hire legitimate citizens to do what immigrants do for the price they pay?
- If the laws are enforced and no jobs exist for immigrants and there are no more immigrants in this country, will conservatives march in the streets when iceberg lettuce is five bucks a head? And just who will they blame?

[Athens30603]

3. I wish

...I had saved this article I read once where an economist figured out that if all lettuce workers were paid a living wage the average price of iceberg lettuce would increase by only 12 cents a head and the companies profit margin would remain stable. So, don't quote me on this (since I don't have the source) but paying a fair wage isn't necessarily doomsday for customers or companies.

[BOSSHOG]

5. I'm all for a fair wage

and I'm not citing a doomsday situation just that conservatives will create a situation which they will then find reason to bitch about. I won't quote you but I wonder if the economist you cite works for the heritage foundation. Sounds like it. And if your article is correct then why aren't employers hiring legals instead of jeopardizing their own careers with fines and penalties?

[TlalocW]

9. Right but...

While we wouldn't compare their paying a fair wage as being doomsday for companies, any decrease, no matter how slight, in their profit margins will have CEOs blubbering to congress about the economic "hardships" they're facing, and how because of their having to pay decent wages, they could only get the ruby-encrusted gold faucets for their mansion's guest bathroom and not the diamond-encrusted ones.

TlalocW

[BOSSHOG]

11. Do you know how embarrassing it is

to have ruby encrusted faucets? Ya can't even invite the neighbors over lest they have to use the toilet. That's just horrible.

[bunkerbuster1]

29. I'm sure the "Five dollar lettuce" claims are crap.

How much prices would increase, I don't know. But I do tire of hearing that Americans wouldn't pay higher prices to end slavery. That's bullshit.

[unlawflcombatnt]

38. I HAVE an article on that very issue

Actually, it's a graphic from the New York Times.




According to the above, raising the wages of agricultural workers by 40% would increase the price of produce 2%. It would cost only pennies on most produce.

[dmosh42]

4. "illegal immigrants"

We're not talking about preventing legal immigrants from working. This is about illegals!

[BOSSHOG]

6. Isn't it true

that we are all illegal immigrants? (except the Indians of course.) I think it rather ballsy that we can sit on our high horses and decide who and who cannot come to our shores. Maybe we should give the Statue of Liberty back to the French.

[dmosh42]

7. You must be living in a cave or something!

Try going to some other civilized country, demanding work, demanding medical treatment, and hardly paying taxes. We all play by the rules or civilizations get terminated!

[BOSSHOG]

8. I think playing by the rules is a great idea

I live in a very nice home in a very nice neighborhood. Most immigrants don't have to demand work, employers are more then happy to hire them on street corners in the morning to do this or that and that really pisses the unions off. I'd rather they become citizens and share in the tax burden. I guess you'd be more then willing to work in the produce fields for 12-15 hours a day for a couple bucks an hour to prevent immigrants from coming here. Ergo my original question, can employers find legitimate citizens to do the work immigrants do for the amount of money they are paid? You game? Or will you strike for hire wages when the price of a salad skyrockets?

[dmosh42]

10. Of course not!

It's always great when you're some parasite executive who knows he can overcome the legal system by hiring illegals. No decent wages for them, but the executive gets a little fatter, and he calls his Republican buddies and thanks them for not enforcing the laws!

[BOSSHOG]

12. Okay so lets enforce the laws as written

Maybe you and I can agree that there are laws on the books right now which would solve this problem and maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't the immigrants (or not totally their fault.) However, my question remains unanswered - will legitimate citizens do the work of immigrants for the amount of money the immigrants receive? You must agree it is a fair question. FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY is always left out of any argument.

[dmosh42]

13. Please re-read my statement at the start of this..."Employers"

I never said it was the fault of any illegal immigrant, but the employers. And I don't consider that a 'fair' question, because you're talking about offering 'your' wage to an illegal migrant. By doing that you are appealing to his desparate status, and avoiding your duty a a legal citizen to obey our laws. This is like "Free Trade", as practiced by this administration. It was just a way for corporations to go offshore, and avoid any duties or customs laws, plus the cheap labor, which they know we can't compete with. But, I have a feeling you're in favor of that, as you seem to be more in line with the libertarians.

[BOSSHOG]

23. I've never hired an illegal immigrant

I'm in favor of existing laws being enforced and wonder why they are not. Because people will hire them, people cross the border. Which came first the employer or the employee? I'm not familiar with the libertarian view on this issue so I don't believe I can seem to be in line with them. I do know that if conservatives get their way and 12 million (or however many there are) are sent away from this country, labor costs will go up, prices will go up and conservatives will have something else to bitch about and wonder, why is my salad now so expensive? I suggest labor unions wave the flag and hit the produce fields and force the issue.

[eNeko]

14. sounds like Bush talk to me.

I'm tired of hearing people say that illegal workers do jobs that Americans don't want. First, Americans aren't lazy. Second, this "oh, prices will skyrocket!" scare tactic is crap. I don't believe prices will go through the roof for one second. And if prices do go up a little, that's the cost of doing business fairly and I'm willing to pay it. The only reason employers hire illegal workers is because they'll work cheaply. I'm sure that if agricultural employers pay a fair wage, there will be actual citizens who'll be willing to do the work. They just can't afford to, because the illegal workers have driven down the wages.

And agricultural work isn't the only kind of work that illegal immigrants do. What about all the cleaning jobs, the restaurant or fast food jobs, or the construction jobs illegal workers are currently occupying? There's plenty of people who wouldn't mind being a maid. My great-grandmother worked the night shift at a hotel for twenty years. Teenagers and college kids are fine with working in food service, and construction pays quite well. So please stop spreading the idea that illegal immigrants are taking jobs we lazy Americans are too fastidious to do, because it isn't true.

[dmosh42]

15. Point well made, eNeko!

There were many good paying construction jobs a few years ago, and I worked some. But the contractors all want that cheap wage for the fat profits!

[BOSSHOG]

22. My question remains unanswered

Will hard working flag waving Americans do the work that immigrants do, work the hours they work FOR THE WAGES THEY MAKE? I am not advancing the argument that Americans won't do the work. I'm asking will they do the work for the same wages. You are absolutely positively sure that "actual citizens" will do the work. Okay. Why are onions rotting in the fields in Texas? Because of stricter immigration laws in that state. If "we" Americans were doing those jobs there wouldn't be an immigrant problem. And if the laws on the books were enforced they couldn't get a job and the cost of labor would go up and that price would be passed on to the consumer and conservatives would have something to bitch about in the future. "Construction pays quite well." Is that why there is a booming Hispanic population in and around New Orleans? Because all the actual citizens are doing the work?

[eNeko]

25. I don't think you read my post very carefully

Illegal workers aren't paid fairly. That's why they're hired in the first place. I don't think they should be doing the work for that amount of pay, either, but they're desperate. So I think your questions is ridiculous. Maybe you'd be in favor of sweat-shops, too. After all, not like there's Americans willing to work for pennies a day with no bathroom breaks.

I also said that I would NOT complain about increased prices as a result of fair wages. I'm willing to pay slightly higher prices in return for fair labor practices.

Please also see the last response - from a person who worked construction. There are people willing to do hard labor, as long as they're paid fairly.

I guess you like having a population of exploitable workers, as long as you get cheap goods in return. I personally would rather see employers held to fair employment and payment standards.

[BOSSHOG]

28. Oh your such a martyr

willing to pay "slightly" higher prices. Conservatives will whine like alley cats when prices go up and scratch their heads trying to figure out how it happened. I don't care if the prices go up and I don't care if immigrants keep coming across the border because they will if current laws continue not to be enforced and immigrants will continue to be the scapegoats. All because of conservative values, and logic and more fake patriotism. We are closer on this issue then you opine. I have no desire for exploitable workers and you have to be an ignorant ass to write such a thing. And you came close to answering my question - "there are people willing to do hard work, AS LONG AS THEY ARE PAID FAIRLY." In other words if they are not, the onions will continue to rot in the fields. Immigrants are supposedly a problem, and removing them from our existence is supposedly the solution. That's stovepipe thinking if I've ever seen it displayed.

[SAinFla]

47. Illegals ARE paying taxes

Well said BossHog.
I would also like to ask if anyone realizes that the majority of immigrants are already paying into the system? Besides the obvious taxes, eg sales, gas, phone taxes, etc.. most of them are working with forged documents which means that they are also paying in social security and Workman's comp. then we begrudge them a visit to the clinic or an education for their American born offspring.

[SAinFla]

46. There is enough work out there for everyone.

There is enough work out there for everyone. Besides if we chose to deal with the cause rather than the effect.. we wouldnt be in this mess. We need to invest in Mexico. Why are we outsourcing to India? If labor is so cheap down there shouldn't big business be encouraged in that direction? Just becasue NAFTA failed doesn't mean we should abandon that idea completely.
A properous neighbor = a safe border.

[fasttense]

17. As a college kid

I worked next to illegal immigrants (they told me they were illegal) picking flowers in Florida and tomatoes in Pennsylvania. I quit when I saw the immigrants get paid in cash and get their full wages, while I was paid by check and got taxes taken out (the foreman's response, when I asked why, was, "because that's the law." :rofl: ). That was about twenty-five years ago.

There are plenty of people like me willing to do the jobs illegals do today. I'm no special, I was just poor. But... you have to pay them what they are worth and not the slave wages they pay these poor immigrants AND you have to follow safety and environmental laws. SO this BS that no one will take those jobs is just that BS (and a great talking point for the bushes). Illegals are employed because they can pay them less and they can ignore OSHA standards because the illegal wont complain.

[eNeko]

26. Thanks, that's the point I was driving at.

[unlawflcombatnt]

39. That's the whole point

If they couldn't hire illegal immigrants, they'd have to hire Americans at a decent wage to do the work. Which is exactly the way "free" markets normally work. If you can't legally find enough workers at a low wage, then you have to raise the wage to obtain enough workers.

But if you can illegally hire, you don't have to pay American workers the free market wage to do the work. You can undercut the free market price of labor and illegally hire illegal immigrants.

Amazing how Corporatists, Right-Wingers, and the DLC espouse the "free market" until it cuts into their profits. Then they want to find a way around the free market, such as hiring illegal immigrants.

The "price of a salad" won't skyrocket. That's Right-Wing Corporatist propaganda. The price would rise little, but profits would decline a lot. And American wages would rise a lot.

[bunkerbuster1]

30. BTW--and I'm gonna start a new thread--I HATE the term "illegal"

It's racist and dehumanizing, and yet many of us (myself included) slip up and adopt the language of stupidity.

Yes, those in this country illegally are breaking the law. So are those who speed on the highways; we don't call them "illegal drivers" or even just "illegals." Ditto for anyone who ever fudged an income tax return. And so on...

Oh, and please, I am NOT jumping down your throat for this. Your shiny subject header just attracted my attention.

[SAinFla]

45. well said!!!!

Besides, this bill does nothing except tell the immigrants to Pay Up, then get Legally Exploited and then Go Home!
This bill is of no help at all to the millions of people who love this country and want to become legal tax paying American Citizens.
The backlash is they will have to return to their country of origin a few years later. Who says that they will then be allowed back into the US????
Two things tell me no.
First of all, there is a law in place that says if you have overstayed your visa by more than 1 year you will NOT be allowed back into the US for a further 10 years.
And secondly, what 99.9% of the people do not know, is that the American Embassies overseas have the legal authority to OVERIDE what the BCIS/Homeland Security declares in this country.
Any immigrant who tries to do the right thing by coughing up the $5 grand will end up poorer, further into debt (in most cases) and without a path to citizenship.
This is cruel and unusual punishment to the millions of people who seek freedom and democracy, just like our ancestors have (unless of course you happen to be an indigenous American Indian). Freedom and democracy... isn't this why we keep invading other countries???

[dflprincess]

37. The child is a citizen, but the parent is not and

having a child who is a citizen does not give the parent any right to stay in the country. The parent can still be deported and would face the choice of taking the child back to the parent's home country or leaving it in the U.S. This is a problem many of the people caught in the recent ICE raids are facing.

Personally, I think the raids are another way of helping the employers. If the workers are constantly afraid of their workplace being raided by ICE, they'll keep a low profile, including keeping their mouths shut about working conditions and avoiding any attempts to organize them. The raids don't hurt the employers as they can always replace the deported workers with new ones. Some American companies like Hormel and Tyson actually advertise in other countries for workers - knowing full well that these ads are going to attract undocumented workers.

[Virginia Dare]

16. We also aren't doing much to help the Mexican economy..

or address the many social ills that exist there. If it was a decent place to make a living and raise a family for the majority of the population, there simply wouldn't be the numbers of people who HAD to come here to survive.

[fasttense]

20. Good point Virginia Dare

In Greg Palast's book he noted that in Mexico, laborer's pay per hour dropped 40% in the first 7 years after the passage of NAFTA. So if you're a laborer in Mexico, this NAFTA deal really wasn't much of a deal for them or us.

[Greyhound]

43. When did it become our responsibility to prop up the Mexican economy?

It is the Mexicans that must fix their economic woes, we can't. Their problems are mainly due to the fat that they allow the tiny elite to rule over and steal the product of their country. Eliminate the kleptocracy and most of their problems are vastly improved.

I do find it interesting that every time we talk about illegal immigration, we talk about Mexico and Mexicans, as if they are the whole problem. I'm sure that somebody will provide the statistics, but a large portion of them are from Asian, Eastern European, and other Latin countries.

[EFerrari]

18. Well, it's US policy of undermining democracy in Latin America

that causes illegal immigration.

If their governments don't play ball with US corporate interests, we destabilize or overthrow them.

That means, the US government actively sabotages democracies and economies there.

The workers who come here as well as the employers who hire them are just the end of the food chain. :shrug:

[Red Knight]

19. Not that simple

Certainly, higher wages and a better standard of living are the big draw but there are many things behind it. Trade laws that make it tougher to compete against imports don't help, and the maquiladora industry in Mexico helps only the corporate big wigs--not the workers there.

This needs a comprehensive plan that includes punishing employers but also adding real labor protections as part of any trade deals--enforceable ones so that Mexico will provide real opportunity to its workers instead of encouraging them to head north.

But that's complicated more because of China and other low wage countries that will offer labor even cheaper than Mexico.

To truly attack this we need to see progress in Mexico. That country needs to do better for its workers instead of simply offering them up as cheap labor--and the U.S. needs to do more than allow corporations to exploit that labor if we are serious about the immigration issue.

These problems go hand in hand.

But when the issue is discussed it is usually discussed as seperate issues.

[madmom]

21. my SO was telling me the other day, about a book he's reading on

this subject. He said there is suppose to be a law on the books that says the employers can have all the "day-laborers" they want they just have to pay insurance and s.s. taxes and any other applicable tax. So there in a nut shell is the problem IMO.

[slackmaster]

24. Few things are as lame as trying to attribute a complex, persistent problem to a single cause

:dunce:

[depakid]

35. Agreed. If there's a policy area more complex than immigration

I don't know about it.

Tends to make strange political bedfellows- which actually makes it a good topic to center a university class political science or public administration around.

[DrDan]

27. I agree with her 110%

and have been saying the same thing . . .

Forget the fence . . . just put a true punishing blow to the employers looking for this cheap illegal labor . . . and the jobs will dry up . . . and they wholesale border crossing will stop - except for those headed home . . .

A solution for a fraction of the cost of this ridiculous fence . . .

but - the Tysons and the Florida orange industry will not put up with it - so it is destined to fail

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. A comforting but not, I suspect, an accurate position.

It would be lovely to have someone rich and powerful (or at least, someone who can be depicted as rich and powerful) rather than someone poor or powerless to blame for immigration - it would mean that we could get hot under the collar about it without feeling illiberal.

I think it's hypocritical, though. Illegal immigrants would still go to the USA even if people were more careful about not hiring them - most of them don't have terribly accurate information about conditions there, and are driven more by dreams and aspirations than facts, I suspect. And even if this were not the case, to condemn the person who doesn't do sufficient to make sure that they're not aiding an act more than the person who commits it is an extreme double standard.

This is not to say that many American companies shouldn't do more to avoid employing illegals, or that they don't bear part of the responsibility.

But I think that however guilt much you feel they bear, the actual immigrants themselves must bear more. Either no-one is to blame, or the illegal immigrants themselves are more than anyone else.

I think that the cry of "blame the employers" is basically just an attempt to avoid facing up to an uncomfortable moral issue.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

32. Mitigating circumstances.

Mitigating circumstances are ALWAYS part of the equation. Immigrants are poor and desperate. Somehow I think that a person acting out of desperation is less culpable than a fat lazy boss who just wants to make some extra money by getting some slaves.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. I think that's a foolish, albeit widespread, sterotype.

The implicit assumption "employers = fat, lazy bosses" is one that underlies, and renders entirely worthless, a good deal of left-wing economic and political thought, sadly.

Thankfully, it's mostly restricted to amateurs - serious politicians and economists usually have a more accurate picture of how the economy works. This is why when I hear twaddle being talked about the "activist class" and the "politician class", my sympathies are largely with the people caricatured as the latter.

[rocktivity]

33. Increase the financial penalties to employers, too

The fines to broadcast networks that broadcast obscenities was increased tenfold, right? Do the same for the employers--or at least fine them enough to cover the illegal employer's deporatation?

:headbang:
rocknation

[pingzing58]

36. It's about people wanting to put in a "Honest day's work for an honest day's pay"

Congressmember Sensenbrenner's alarmist and inflamatory
remarks concerning Mexican Undocumented Workers (notice
workers!!!!) that they will increase School Taxes, Social
Service costs and Hosptial Fees have not been proven. Find me
any not already debunked study (Jorge Borgas, et al; Heather
Mac Donald; Donald Huddle; any so called economist from San
Diego; Arizona (everyone in Phoenix and Tempe are not natives
and I don't recognize their power grab against the native born
people from Southern Arizon like Nogales and Tucson goodness
of all the states they have an English Only law on their books
- this is the result of the White Flight from the North and
East - lets put them on a third class train and send them to
where they came from, oh wait, lets take their land and make
them walk like their ancestors made the Native Americans on
the Trail of Tears.  These people are here, they are working,
our economy even according to the Repugs is doing well, jobs
are being created...  What?  Someone tell me how many illegal
aliens have fought and died for this country and how many have
been given citizenship since the gulf war?  Let me know.  I'm
waiting...

[unlawflcombatnt]

40. Wrong on So Many Counts

Borjas has not been "debunked." We've created a total of only 17,000 jobs in 2007, according to the http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?&series_id=LNS12000000">BLS. We have 231 million working age Americans, and only 146 million are employed, leaving a surplus of labor of 85 million.

The only thing that's been "debunked" is the myth that there are "jobs no American will do," or that there is any labor shortage whatsoever in ANY field.

There are only employers who won't pay enough to hire Americans. And they don't have to pay enough to hire Americans because they can hire an illegal immigrant for less, forcing Americans to have to work for less to compete.

Illegal immigrations suppresses wages. And there's nothing to "debunk" about that. It's just basic basic supply & demand economics. An increased supply of workers means a lower price for each worker. And 12-20 million illegal immigrants have a huge wage-suppressing effect.

Try "debunking" that.

[unlawflcombatnt]

41. Exactly

And if all 12-20 million illegal immigrants are given immediate legal status, it gives immediate legal status to their hiring by previously illegal employers.

The Comprehensive Amnesty bill being pushed by the Senate is designed to give immediate Amnesty to the employers who've been illegally hiring. The illegal workers they previously hired will suddenly become legal, making their hiring legal as well.

Enforcement provisions in the bill don't make any difference if legal status is suddenly given to all of their previously illegal workers. There'll be nothing to enforce if all of their workers now become legal workers.

[MadHound]

42. That is indeed part of the problem,

But another large part of the problem is so called "free" trade. NAFTA has utterly ruined the Mexican and Central American agricultural industry, throwing many thousands of people out of work and off the land. For awhile they were able to find jobs in the NAFTA created industrial sector, but with China offering ever cheaper wages, that sector also died shortly thereafter, leaving these thousands upon thousands of people without a job. Thus, they come North to America.

Yes, we've actually created a large part of the immigration problem ourselves.

[SAinFla]

44. New Bill = Pay Up, then get Legally Exploited and then Go Home!

This bill does nothing except tell the immigrants to Pay Up, then get Legally Exploited and then Go Home!
This bill is of no help at all to the millions of people who love this country and want to become legal tax paying American Citizens.
The backlash is they will have to return to their country of origin a few years later. Who says that they will then be allowed back into the US????
Two things tell me no.
First of all, there is a law in place that says if you have overstayed your visa by more than 3 years you will NOT be allowed back into the US for a further 10 years.
And secondly, what 99.9% of the people do not know, is that the American Embassies overseas have the legal authority to OVERRIDE what the BCIS/Homeland Security declares in this country.
Any immigrant who tries to do the right thing by coughing up the $5 grand will end up poorer, further into debt (in most cases) and without a path to citizenship. This is cruel and unusual punishment to the millions of people who seek freedom and democracy, just like our ancestors have (unless of course you happen to be an indigenous American Indian). Freedom and democracy... isn't this why we keep invading other countries???

[Zodiak]

48. That's my position, too.

Go after the employers.....jail them. Without demand, there is no supply.

And you spare yourself having to spend all that money deporting people, patrolling fences, and getting violent.

I also believe in the corporate death penalty. Wantonly harm society and expect to have your charter revoked.

[SAinFla]

49. we're talking about human lives here

Yes the corporations do rule and that is why it is up to us, the people, to maintain a humanitarian perspective. We are not talking about ants, we're talking about human lives here. People who have come to this country because they cannot bear the circumstances back home, any longer, in most cases, just like our ancestors have done for generations. Why do we keep climbing up on this high and mighty horse, thinking that we are at the top of the food chain?

[acmavm]

50. Don't be ridiculous. Illegal aliens are just as guilty. The purposely break

the law to get into this country. `They both (employers and illegals - of ANY nationality) need to be dealt with.