Using immigration to divide the country.....a prediction from 2005.

[madfloridian]

I think it is time to remember that some understood the use of wedge issues before others even talked about it. I wrote a lot of this in 2006.

In 2005 Dean predicted the GOP would use immigration to divide us.

2005: Dean: GOP to Scapegoat Immigrants in Next Election

From 2005. Dean predicted many times that the Republicans were going to use immigration to divide us. It is terrible what they are urging...the criminalization of good Samaritans who help those in need. I have seen many posts here saying it is a losing issue for Democrats. No, standing up for those who are the least among us is never a losing issue. Never.

Dean: Immigration is next wedge

July 15, 2005
USA: Dean: Immigration is next wedge

"In his speeches this week around the country, Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean has been saying Republicans will make immigration their next major wedge issue. From Idaho - where he spoke Friday before several hundred people in near-100 temperatures - to Colorado and Wisconsin, Dean has been blasting GOP leaders for using the immigration debate as a new way to divide Americans. Expect more this weekend when Dean is among the featured speakers at the National Council of La Raza conference in Philadelphia.

Speaking Thursday in Denver, Dean was critical of Republican congressmen Bob Beauprez and Tom Tancredo, whom he said used fear to divide constituents along racial lines. And trading barbs with Republican chairman Ken Mehlman at the NAACP convention in Milwaukee, where both spoke Thursday, Dean said, “We’re not going to divide Americans to win elections. The Republican Party’s ‘Southern Strategy’ used in the 1960s and 1970s lives today. In 2000, they used the racially charged word “quota” to divide African Americans. In 2004, they used gay marriage. And just you wait; in 2006 its going to be immigrants.”

And in Texas in 2005 to much applause he had more to say.

Dean: GOP to Scapegoat Immigrants in Next Election

EDINBURG, Texas — Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean argued on Friday that Republicans will try to make immigrants the "scapegoats" in the next election. At a rally, Dean garnered the loudest applause when he said Republicans would make immigration a pivotal issue during upcoming elections, as they did gay marriage and affirmative action in previous elections.

"Do you know who the scapegoats are going to be? Immigrants," he said. "In Colorado, the chairman of the Republican Party endorsed Tom Tancredo for re-election. That is morally reprehensible. The governor of California, a supposed moderate Republican, invited the Minutemen to visit California. We do not need vigilante justice."

Dean also criticized President Bush, contending that the president rebuffed Mexican President Vicente Fox because of divisions over the Iraq war.

"A strong Mexico means a strong America, and our ties must not be based on the petulance of the president of the United States," Dean said.

And there was more in 2005....not so much about it now that it has come to pass.

Dean Hammers Bush On War, Immigration

Dean Hammers Bush On War, Immigration
DNC Chief Gives Preview of '06 Race



Dean speaking in Phoenix.

"PHOENIX, Dec. 3 -- Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean offered a preview of the 2006 elections here Saturday with a blistering critique of President Bush's policies on Iraq and immigration and the Republicans' ethics scandals. But he warned Democrats they cannot expect to win next year without offering an agenda of their own. Speaking at the fall meeting of the Democratic National Committee, Dean pledged that Democrats would offer tax policies aimed at middle-class voters, a plan to provide health insurance to all Americans, immigration proposals that offer a path to legalization for illegal immigrants, and defense policies that would protect the nation and expose the "hollow promises" of the Bush administration."

Saying Bush had used race and gay rights to divide the electorate, Dean said, "In 2006, it's going to be immigration; that's who he's going to scapegoat next." He said Democrats must favor tougher enforcement of existing immigration laws and provide tighter border security, but said a balanced immigration policy would provide a way to give many of the 11 million illegal immigrants a path to legal status."

He doesn't talk about it anymore. The TV pundits have used it just as he said they would. I have seen a sea change in our area. People who were common sense about such amd realized the only way to stop illegal immigration is to fine the employers who hire them and secure the borders better.....now are talking about the Lou Dobbs show and not realizing what he is doing.

They DID turn immigrants into scapegoats, and it was so easy for them. No one speaks out much very loudly anymore, and the media has their instructions.

We have camps for them which are not talked about much. There are mothers there separated from nursing babies. There are young children in jump suits that are orange, like they were criminals. We don't know who else is in those private detention camps. We had them in WWII for the Japanese, but we don't talk much about that either.

It is wrong to round up millions of people who have been here for years and put them in camps. And it scares the bejesus out of me that so many think it is ok.

My Republican family has called me a "bleeding heart liberal" for years, so words don't touch me much now. But even they are concerned now about the creeping fear and hatred being spread on this subject.

The media has done their job well. They went on immediate attack against those who spoke out about the issue, posting their pictures and statements and inviting people to bombard them with mail for standing up for what it is right.

[laureloak]

1. Actually, it may unite more than divide.

Because I'm a Democrat doesn't mean I'll lay down and play dead while millions of illegals move in from the south and take over our country. I think most Republicans feel the same way.

Only the politicans are playing softball with immigration because they're afraid they may scare off votes. I'll vote for the candidate with the strongest stance against illegal immigration.

[madfloridian]

2. Secure the borders, fine the employers.

Why wouldn't that work? Why won't they do it?

Why are they putting them in private camps? How much money will it cost to round them all up?

Thanks for the comments.

When did you become so afraid?

[hansberrym]

8. Because that is not what Bush and the pro-business crowd want.

They don't want to fine employers, that bad for business.

The raids are just for show -note that Bush did little to enforce the border previously, he is just acting to drum support for his amnesty bill.

Bush really wants open borders to facilitate the formation of the North Amercian Union. That is what concerns many.

[madfloridian]

16. I agree, secure the borders.

But who is getting put in jails? The immigrants. Many of them are not illegals.

Their children, their babies? Private camps? Little oversight?

[laureloak]

105. Simple

1. Tell them to leave and give them 1 month to do so.
2. If they don't leave, take them back to the border and make them cross over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. So what is your rememdy for the oodles of European

Ilegals taht pass very well thank you

By your logic, though I am a citizen, I'd be rounded up too... since I came from Mexico

Hell, the Hernandez family down the road whose lived on this land since oh 1700 will be rounded up too

I will tell you what country did this too

Nazi Geramy in the 1930s with Polish Jews that lived in Germany legally, some who were naturalized

Tell me exactly why I shouldn't get any shivers here

Go after the damn employeers, enoforce that part of the law, the economic impetus is gone, ilegal immigration will slow down to a trickle

It is economic in nature, destroy that part of the underground economy

People will go back, once they can't find jobs

[unlawflcombatnt]

111. Exactly

Bush wants to provide Corporate American with unrestricted access to the cheapest labor on the planet-- either by letting them come into the US with no restrictions, or by letting Corporate multinationals ship products made by cheap foreign labor back into the US without any restrictions.

[laureloak]

106. So you are hispanic.

[madfloridian]

112. I should alert on that as being racist.

But I won't because the rules here now say anything goes.

I am not going to tell you who I am or what I am....

What is going on?

[Capn Sunshine]

9. why use right wing framing to characterize this?

"Take over our country"??? Isn't that indicative of what you really fear? Less white people in the future America ? Ow! Scary!

I wonder if the Dutch objected to the use of English in New Amsterdam.

[kurth]

27. Yep, ILLEGAL is the keyword

Every legal immigrant I know is totally against uncontrolled/unlimited/illegal immigration. We live in a world of finite resources, and charity begins at home.

[noamnety]

92. from websters:

charity:

1. FU, we gotta take care of ourselves. You're on your own.

[Morgana LaFey]

94. Then you'd better vote for the ones who

support ENFORCING the laws about who companies hire.

Molly Ivins had an absolutely spot on column some months before she died about immigration. In it she said there's only one thing that needs to be done to stop illegal immigration cold in its tracks: enforce the laws which penalize those companies who HIRE illegals. Dry up the jobs, you'll dry up the tide of illegals. She's absolutely right.

Don't let these fascists appeal to your inner racism. Illegal immigration isn't nearly the problem it's chalked up to be.

[unlawflcombatnt]

109. 2008 election

Illegal immigration will be one of my biggest considerations as well. The candidate with the strongest stance against illegal immigration will definitely have an edge. And anyone supporting the Senate's Comprehensive Amnesty Bill will be at a disadvantage.

[madfloridian]

3. From pachacutec at FireDogLake...about American concentration camps.

http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/21/take-action-immigrants-imprisoned-in-american-concentration-camps-on-christmas/

"One of the more disturbing stories that surfaced after the Swift meat plant raids was how too many children were left without a parent and/or farmed out to friends and families with no immediate word on how they will be reconnected with their mami and papi.

But if news filtering out of one of the newly designated immigrant detention centers for families is any indication, no undocumented parent is going to open their mouth and claim their children if the whole family is going to be subjected to what is becoming known as the first known concentration camp on American soil in the 21st Century. The T. Don Hutto Residential Center in Taylor, Texas (on the outskirts of Austin, Texas) is a private detention facility operated by Corrections Corporation of America. It and a smaller center in Pennsylvania are the only two facilities in the country that are authorized to hold non-Mexican immigrant families and children on noncriminal charges.

What does this mean?

It means that at the Taylor facility of the 400 people "held" there, 200 are children. And all are families that can be held there for whatever length of time without due process conducted in a timely manner. To top it off, as long as the men, women and children are held there, the facility's operator draws a daily profit - per person. The children range in age from infants on up.

Jeans and t-shirts have been replaced with jail uniforms; children are issued uniforms as soon as they can fit into them — and everyone must wear name tags, even the babies."

[aquart]

18. December 2006?

Anything more recent?

[madfloridian]

21. There has been more recent stuff.

Do a search on ICE, immigrants, and use words like jail, detention camp, etc.

[Morgana LaFey]

97. See if you like these

I didn't bother to review them prior to posting:

21:58 5/13/2007
Hutto Texas....Homeland Security Bars U.N. Inspector
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x878609
Link: http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A473695

21:39 4/16/2007
7,500 detention camp beds have been added in 6 states this for year for immigrants.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x663398
Link: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0410ImmigrationLawsuit10-ON.html


U.S. family immigrant centers like prisons: report
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x291743
Link: &resize=full

First They Came for the Jews
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x266499
Link: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003583163_immig22.html

15:34 2/17/2007
Canadian boy caught in Texas detention DKos posted today
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3118123
Link: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/17/84624/4516

21:18 2/16/2007
Rawstory Exclusive: Documents Show New Secretive Prison Program
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3117000
Link: http://www.rawstory.com//news/2007/Documents_show_new_secretive_new_US_0216.html

17:15 2/10/2007
Interment Camps-They're Back
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x175740
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/us/10detain.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Our Modern Concentration Camp
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x108388
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020102238.html

George Bush just got into the prison business.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3162354
Links; http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=205269
and: http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=205269

In America. Right now. American Children and families in Concentration camps
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3064687
Link: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/12/euphemisms.html
and see: http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/12/15/15immigprison.html

A Christmas Message from outside a US children's prison...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2985726#2985971
Link: http://texascivilrightsreview.org/phpnuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=713

Privatized Immigrant Detention Facilities for Families Revealed to be Modern-Day Concentration Camps
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2960254&mesg_id=2960254
Link: http://latinalista.blogspot.com/2006/12/privatized-immigrant-detention.html

[aquart]

4. Immigration isn't the issue. JOBS is the issue.

If America had jobs, we'd welcome them. But we don't. The jobs are overseas. OUR JOBS. OUR FACTORIES. OUR LOST EDGE.

Reframe and hit back.

[madfloridian]

6. They are not taking those jobs that are going overseas..

It was our government who sent the jobs overseas. NAFTA was passed under Clinton, and now our party is trying to slip through more watered down trade agreements.

Blame the right people.

[aquart]

11. I wasn't blaming. I was explaining.

And I don't care who did it. Everybody had a finger in that pie. Just like the savings and loans. What I was saying is that the FOCUS is wrong. We are angry because our good jobs are gone. So we take it out on the people who have come for the few bad jobs that are left.

Immigration wouldn't matter if AMERICANS HAD JOBS. That's the issue. Blame doesn't get us anywhere because we were equally to blame. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Talk jobs, not immigration. Immigration is a loser as a topic. Because NOBODY has a good answer. The answer is American jobs.

[madfloridian]

14. The immigrants did not send the manufacturing jobs overseas.

They did not turn us into a service industry country in just a few years. It was our Congress who did that starting with Bill Clinton's NAFTA. And it continues with the new trade deal Rangel is trying to keep secret.

[barb162]

25. Remember when this country actually made TVs?

That was way before NAFTA and Clinton. NAFTA was just another straw breaking the camel's back.

[paulk]

101. the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas started long

before "Bill Clinton's " NAFTA. Try Reagan/Bush 41. Which was HRW Bush's NAFTA, actually. Try not to be so like your reletives, you know, the republican one's who blame everything on Democrats.

[barb162]

23. There's offshoring and there are the illegals picking off what's left here.

It's a multi-faceted problem that's been going on for a few decades. Way before NAFTA was passed manufacturing jobs were going to China and elsewhere by the millions. Both parties allowed it and pushed it along. It's disgusting.

[madfloridian]

30. But the only ones being put in detention camps are immigrants.

I try to see all sides, but the ones who should get the most blame are getting none. Yet entire families are being split.

[barb162]

38. Illegal immigrants who never should have been here in the first place.

get put in detention. If they had applied legally and waited their turn, they wouldn't end up in detention separated from their kids. They broke the laws of this country just as surely as if a citizen breaks the law and winds up in jail and then blames the system for being separated from the kids. Don't blame the system. Blame the perps, that is, the people who enter illegally.

[Proud_Democratt]

98. They entered illegally, not immorally!

There are many things that are illegal!!
* Speeding
* Parking violations
* Smoking pot (in most states).

Should we exploit and dehumanize ALL offenders?

These people don't illegally emigrate for a FREE ride!
In most cases, they came here for a better life and usually outwork most American folks.

[Morgana LaFey]

99. Whoa, you guys. Here's a partial list of the "jobs" that go to illegals

* meat packing plants (one of the most dangerous jobs in the country)

* Harvesting produce in agricultural areas such as CA and FL -- at rockbottom wages, too, like under minimum wage (since they're illegal to start with and won't DARE complain to the authorities, employers can get away with that). These are literally backbreaking jobs, and quite seasonal. Think too of all the herbicides and pesticides they get to play around in. It's not so much that "no Americans WANT" these jobs, it's that they don't pay enough for the physical abuse they require AND are seasonal to boot. If Americans can find ANY job other than these, they'll take those.

* Day labor -- Standing on some street corner hoping some bloke will come along and hire you for the day, at whatever he'll pay, also often enough not even minimum wage. Or you work for a "temp agency" and they keep a good portion of your pay.

* Sweat shops -- these are often for women, since they involve sewing machines and such. Long hours, non-minimum wages, horrific working conditions (else they wouldn't be called sweat shops).

* The truly lucky ones will get to work for some company doing manual labor, usually at lower than average wages (probably under minimum wage), often in dangerous jobs or terrible working conditions, but not "quite" as bad as these other "careers."

My daughter-in-law, whom I absolutely adore, was an illegal for a while. She's from a South American country and overstayed her visa, I don't know why but someday will ask. My son met her when she was working in a Mexican restaurant, with some other illegals I believe, as a server with her very limited English.

And then she worked for a company that sold meat to restaurants. I got the feeling both places, both owned by immigrants I believe, made a practice of hiring illegals, I believe to actually HELP them. I feel sure there are those kinds of companies as well. She, obviously, was one of the lucky ones. But then she is very bright, well-educated (except the English part), from a moderately good family, extremely attractive, AND (perhaps most important of all) already had connections here which is why -- and who -- she was visiting in the first place.

[madfloridian]

5. Raids continue, employers NOT held accountable. Workers shipped to jails..other states.

http://migramatters.blogspot.com/search/label/DHS%20raids

"An ICE officer handling the detention and deportation of those arrested today said they were being processed in Springfield and would later be transported to jails in Kansas City, St. Louis and Wichita, Kan. Detainees will appear before a federal immigration judge in Kansas City unless they waive their rights to a hearing, he said.

There are no charges pending against George’s, which is based in Springdale, Ark. Company spokesman Glen Balch did not immediately return a call seeking comment."

NO CHARGES pending against the employers, whom I hear are often warned in advance about the ICE raids. Thus they KNOW they have illegals working for them.

At DU most people had common sense about this issue. But that has changed drastically. Now when someone says it is the employers who should be held accountable...they get blasted.

When did we start hating so? Was it Dobbs alone? Was it others?

[hansberrym]

15. What are you talking about?

You said:
"At DU most people had common sense about this issue. But that has changed drastically. Now when someone says it is the employers who should be held accountable...they get blasted.

When did we start hating so? Was it Dobbs alone? Was it others?"


Who is blasting suggestions to fine employers? (seems there is overwhelming agreement on that point)

Who's we?

Dobbs is FOR fining employers.

Others? (do you have a list in your jacket?)

[pampango]

55. I didn't see anything in the report about the employer being warned

in advance of the raid. If the employer was warned in advance, and did nothing to protect or warn the affected workers, you could make the case that the employer really thought they were legal and was happy to cooperate in the apprehending of illegal workers.

I have no problem with prosecuting employers who knowingly hire illegal workers (or pollute the environment or violate wage and hour regulations or discriminate against employees), but you have to be able to prove the crime to have any hope of getting a conviction. Just chanting "Go after the employers!" does not solve the problem.

[madfloridian]

58. Yes, I have something in my files where employers were warned in at least one case.

The day before. And they knew they were using illegal.

[pampango]

59. I would be interested to hear more about that case. n/t

[madfloridian]

63. Here is more about how they warned employers.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=19&ItemID=12860

"Nine days after the January 15 action ICE agents came out to the plant.

According to Meatingplace.com, ICE gave the company advance notice the day before. Agents arrived with a list of workers, and company supervisors escorted them to the room where the migra was waiting. "We didn't want to do anything to upset our employees," Smithfield spokesperson Dennis Pittman told Meatingplace.com reporter Tom Johnston. Later the company announced it would run the plant the following Saturday, to make up for the production lost the day after the raid. Keith Ludlum says he heard the company on the radio on Thursday, asking people to come back to work."

In case you are interested, here is more of the article. No one knew what happened that day until people did not come home that night to their families. To cover up what they were doing...ICE agents also called up whites and African Americans saying they had to take drug tests.

"That day the migra picked up 21 people, while trying not to alert the rest of the plant's laborers. One by one, supervisors went to Mexicans on the line. You're needed in the front office, they'd say. The workers would put down their knives, take off their gloves, and walk through the cavernous building to the human resources department. There ICE agents took them into custody, put them in handcuffs, and locked them up in a temporary detention area. Later, they were taken out in vans and sent to immigration jails as far away as Georgia.

"To keep people from guessing what was up," says Keith Ludlum, one of the few white workers on the production floor, "they also called up African Americans and whites, and told them they had to take drug tests. If they'd only called Latinos, people would have known what was happening." If word had gotten out, hundreds of workers would undoubtedly have run from the lines. Valuable meat would have been left to spoil - a day's production lost. In a plant where 5500 people slaughter and cut apart 32,000 hogs a day, that's a lot of money. Keeping the raid secret meant workers worked to the end of their shift and Smithfield got its product out.

Eventually the truth came out, however. Parents didn't show up to collect their kids. "A friend called me at nine or ten that night, and told me someone from my town hadn't come home," recalls Pedro Mendez. "That's when we knew what had happened. I couldn't sleep that night, knowing my friends had been picked up. I worried about my own family."

[pampango]

66. Thanks for the information.

If I were the company's PR guy, I would spin that we were happy to help ICE arrest and deport illegal workers. We had no idea that that many of our Hispanic workers were illegal.

I am not a lawyer, but if the ICE intends to prosecute employers, they can't seek the employers' cooperation in conducting the raid.

[hansberrym]

7. Dean and Bush are reading from the same playbook.

They tell us its wrong, even racist, to defend government of the people, by the people, and for the people. If open borders leads to government of the multi-national corporations, for the multi-national corporations, and of the multi-national corporations so be it, who are we citizens to complain?


They are both asswipes.

[madfloridian]

10. Why don't they fine the employers who hire illegals?

As Dean suggested?

Sorry you feel he's an asswipe, because that makes me one, too. Because I believe this can be handled by securing the border and fining the employers.

The media has done its job very well. Even at DU.

Sorry you think I am an asswipe.

How do you feel about concentration camps?

I did not expect anyone here to agree with me when I posted this. It is far too controversial.

In 2006, immigrants became our worst enemies. It could be dealt with by enforcing existing laws.

[hansberrym]

19. " Because I believe this can be handled by securing the border and fining the employers."

Hey, me too.



But guess what? Bush is in office, and that is not what he wants.

Bush prefers to play the race card and pit us against each other instead of enforcing the laws on the books.

[barb162]

28. I've written to my idiot congress people about this.

One is against the amnesty bill and two are for it. I am really perturbed about this country not enforcing what's on the books now instead of putting in that stupid amnesty bill. I 'd love to see ALL of the borders secured. And I would love seeing a new bill fining the living hell out of employers for hiring illegals.

[barb162]

26. Detention is a concentration camp?

Why did the illegals bring their kids here? They knew these kids might get separated if they got caught. WHy are you blaming the US government for enforcing the laws. Place the same thing happening in Mexico, which has fairly strict border security. DO you blame the Mexicans if they separate Guatemalans from their kids if they get caught illegally entering Mexico? Maybe blame the parents illegally crossing the border, not the government exercising its sovereignty.

[madfloridian]

31. Not going to argue.

I presented how I felt.

[IndyJones]

44. And stop enabling them to get multiple welfare checks and food stamps and other social services.

Welfare fraud is HUGE with the illegals. They are able to apply under several different names and get several checks. The welfare process should have some sort of fingerprinting ID to prevent anyone from doing that.

I agree - enforce current immigration laws. Stop providing employment and social benefits.

[Morgana LaFey]

100. Pretty broad brush you got there.

It's been my experience that immigrants -- legal or otherwise -- are extremely hard working, thrifty, good citizens. Are there bad people among ANY group you can name? Certainly. But please don't appeal to and promote racism by stereotyping immigrants (legal or illegal) in this way.

[Chulanowa]

95. How, exactly, do we "secure the border"?

I hear the phrase a lot, and as far as I can tell, that's all it is - a phrase. So, what? Do we need a militarized border or something? Moats full of crocodiles? How do you propose the borders be "secured"?

[madfloridian]

12. I have one more comment about the "a**wipes" you mentioned.

The one named Dean has silenced himself or been silenced on the issue, which is usually what happens when one tells the truth.

But this person...me...you called an "a**wipe" is not yet silenced. I have seen friends here who are intelligent and educated suddenly turn against legal immigrants. They with me gathered necessities for their groups in South Florida, and they did it with care.

Now they are afraid of them. That is very sad indeed.

It was our own government, our own Democrats, who sent the jobs overseas. It was not the immigrants who did that.

[hansberrym]

17. Which are you -Bush or Dean ? n/t

[LoZoccolo]

20. Dean's own supporters silenced him...

...when they put him in a position to support the least common denominator of Democratic positions by lobbying to get him named chairman of the Democratic Party. In a push to get him appointed to something, anything, they put him where he is least likely to speak his mind.

[madfloridian]

22. Do not count me among those. I wanted him to stay with DFA.

I have said it often here. Of course he has been silenced. We knew he would.

[athebea]

43. Do you understand supply and demand, madfloridian ?

When you glut a supply of something the price drops.

The illegals you are so tenderly compassionate for are making it harder and harder to working class Americans to make a living. When you glut the supply of labor the price of labor (i.e., wages) drops.

Illegals take the jobs that CAN'T be shipped overseas. After all, hotels and restaurants and farms and construction jobs can't be offshored, now can they ? So your constant talk about 'shipping jobs overseas' has nothing to do with this subject.

What gives you the right to make working class Americans pay the cost of your 'compassion' ?

[madfloridian]

45. I understand humanity and common sense.

I think you need to examine what you just wrote.

Our governmnent has refused to enforce the rules that already exist.

I don't approve of illegal immigration, but I despise putting people in jail when the laws are not being enforced.

I said people would not agree. There was a time people at DU would have understood.

Not any more.

The media and the GOP have done their job, and few have spoken out.

[athebea]

54. Putting people in jail IS the law being enforced

Your 'humanity' and 'common sense' cost you nothing. They are simply sentimental posturing. It is working class Americans who have taken nothing but knocks over the past 40 years who are paying the entire cost of your 'humanity' and 'common sense'.

[madfloridian]

56. You are blaming me for the problem now. Very bitter response.

They really have succeeded, haven't they?

[athebea]

62. People on the left like you...

...are repeating all the blunders of the left during the 70's and 80's.

As violent crime surged in America, people planned their lives around being off the street before dark, 'bleeding heart liberals' whined about 'root causes' and 'compassion' and preached that 'society was to blame'. That was a disaster.

The refusal to address valid security concerns, the pathetic attempt to dismiss them as 'politically incorrect', the flabby, whiny sentimentalism cost the Democratic Party very, very dearly.

If you want the problem addressed, you have to lock people up who break the law. And had they not crossed the border in the first place, their families would not be split up, now wouldn't they ?

The issue here is not the purity of your feelings so we could do with a great deal less sentimental posturing. You do not have the right to impose upon working Americans the cost of your 'goodness'.

[madfloridian]

64. My "leftyness", my "goodness" are your biggest problem.

I forgot, you don't like my "purity of feelings" either.

This is really odd how much you hate what the Denocrats stand for:

Your words:

"As violent crime surged in America, people planned their lives around being off the street before dark, 'bleeding heart liberals' whined about 'root causes' and 'compassion' and preached that 'society was to blame'. That was a disaster.

The refusal to address valid security concerns, the pathetic attempt to dismiss them as 'politically incorrect', the flabby, whiny sentimentalism cost the Democratic Party very, very dearly.

If you want the problem addressed, you have to lock people up who break the law. And had they not crossed the border in the first place, their families would not be split up, now wouldn't they ?

The issue here is not the purity of your feelings so we could do with a great deal less sentimental posturing. You do not have the right to impose upon working Americans the cost of your 'goodness'.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Morgana LaFey]

104. Congratulations, atheba, you have just proven that the GOP's plan

has worked perfectly, and thoroughly.

The target of your animosity should be those in power who caused this, NOT those whom the Republicans scapegoat and use as a wedge issue.

Do you understand what a "wedge issue" is? It's an issue on which Democrats can be divided amongst themselves, and thereby defeated. On the issue of immigration, we who would be natural allies -- immigrants (whether legal or illegal) and Democrats who are surely NOT the racists among us (or at least don't think they are) -- are being divided because the immigrants are being scapegoated as the ones responsible for our jobs being lost.

THE IMMIGRANTS aren't responsible for lost jobs. Most of the jobs they get (as I posted upthread) are shitty, highly dangerous, non-minimum wage jobs. That DOES serve to bring down wages, but it's not their fault. It's the government's fault and the employers' fault. It's also due to the forced decline (and somewhat self-imposed defeat) of labor unions. This is an essential truth that you have to recognize and acknowledge.

I'll repeat something from my first post to this thread: There is one absolutely ironclad way to stop all illegal immigration (and quite possibly a bunch of legal immigration) and Molly Ivins pointed it out in one of her ultra-insightful columns a few months before her death: enforce the laws about fining and punishing employers who HIRE illegal immigrants. If the jobs dry up, so will illegal immigration.

of course, another key thing would be to help Mexico and other Latin American countries raise their standard of living -- but our country has been very busy over the last 40 - 60 years doing just the opposite. We like to replace left-leaning leaders with rightwing dictators and such. We don't LIKE the nationalization of oil, for example, so the profits can benefit the poor (cf. Venezuela).

So stop buying into the wedge issue demagoguery, and stop scapegoating the wrong people -- people who would be your allies. People who are only doing what TPTB want. Blame the policymakers, and the foreign policy directors.

Not only is that more honest and accurate, more effective and productive, but you also won't look like a racist in doing so.

[athebea]

119. If the illegal and the Americans worker are allies...

... then wouldn't they lose out if illegal immigration were stopped ? Wouldn't they lose out if their jobs dried up ? Why should illegals wish to see the employers who hire them punished ? So isn't their agenda identical to that of the open borders, cheap labor Wall Street Journal editorial page ?

The reality of globalization and the global labor glut it has created is that there are lots and lots of people out there who want your job and will do it for vastly less than you are paid. And it is in their interest to take it. They owe you nothing. It would be wonderful to think that we can all link arms in international working class solidarity, but the unionized worker and the, in effect, strike breaker, are not allies. Somebody who wants your job is not your friend.

A wedge issue is where the compassion of the affluent is at the direct expense of the security interests of generally working class Americans.

[pampango]

60. If the 12 million illegal immigrants here now had been admitted

legally, would that change anything with respect to the supply and demand for labor and the effect on wages of an oversupply. In other words, if they had all immigrated legally (if immigration laws had permitted this) would your complaints still be valid? Are you concerned more with their illegality or their mere presence?

[madfloridian]

61. The issue has been used to divide us so much, that it is becoming...

racist. Some here in this thread are using talking points from right wing radio now.

It is a problem that needs solving but not by putting millions in camps.

Yet it has been pushed by radio and some on CNN so radically that it has worked ery well.

It is sad to me.

[athebea]

75. The Glut IS the Problem

The glut of labor created by globalization has destroyed the bargaining power of American workers and driven wages and benefits down. We are worse off than our parents. This is something American capital has used to its benefit.

An open borders policy is precisely intended to worsen that glut. That is its purpose. And to the extent that the left puts 'compassion' to illegals ahead of protecting the jobs and livelihoods of American workers it is being used to advance a Wall Street Journal editorial page agenda.

Amnesty for 3 million in 1986 in the absence of border enforcement turned a 3 million problem then into a 12 million problem now. Amnesty for 12 million now in the absence of border enforcement will turn a 12 million problem now into a 30 million problem in a generation. When does it end ? Working American have never favored high levels of immigration because it is not in their socioeconomic interest to do so.

And as for 'legality' are you aware of the levels of drug gang violence raging in Northern Mexico ? It's like Colombia during the heyday of the Medellin cartel where it was open season on mayors, politicians, judges, and police chiefs. It's a place where the severed heads of police officers are put on stakes in front of the town hall with the sign "So that you learn respect". How long before that kind of violence becomes commonplace here ? The larger the 'shadow economy', the more bootlegging and smuggling and corruption, the stronger the forces of lawlessness become.

[pampango]

81. I appreciate your honesty.

If the glut of labor is the real problem in your view, then whether it is here "legally" or "illegally" is a lesser consideration. (I guess if they are here illegally, they are theoretically easier to get rid of.)

I am aware of the problems in northern Mexico, though that may be a argument for allowing more people to leave rather than forcing them to stay in such an environment. I do not believe that keeping out Mexicans for fear of drug violence is any more "compassionate" than keeping out Arabs for fear of terrorism or keeping out Africans for fear of aids.

You are right that the American working class has never favored high levels of immigration. If our initial English immigrants had been successful at discouraging immigration (and had avoided the huge mistake of slavery), we would be a more homogeneous society of English heritage, similar to Australia which has always been much more restrictive with regards to immigration. I would not prefer that to the heterogeneous society that we now have, so I am thankful for the high levels of immigration we have had in the past.

[athebea]

86. The Issue is Self-Interest, not "Compassion"

"I am aware of the problems in northern Mexico, though that may be a argument for allowing more people to leave rather than forcing them to stay in such an environment. I do not believe that keeping out Mexicans for fear of drug violence is any more "compassionate" than keeping out Arabs for fear of terrorism or keeping out Africans for fear of aids."

Already we have MS-13 spreading across the country. Are we to create an even worse gang problem by "compassionately" letting more illegals in ? This is Mexico's problem. The American people have no wish to import it.

[aquart]

13. What on god's flaming earth are you ranting about?

Links and quotes please. If you want to compare Dean and Bush, you better be prepared to back it up with examples.

[hansberrym]

24. Read the OP

Both Bush and Dean use the same talking points, but neither actually doing anything to enforce existing laws that would fine employers.

Both insinuate that it is racist to want the immigration laws enforced.
Both push for amnesty. Neither do anything to see that employers of illegal immigrants are fined.



Dean from OP:

The governor of California, a supposed moderate Republican, invited the Minutemen to visit California. We do not need vigilante justice."


Dean pledged that Democrats would offer ... immigration proposals that offer a path to legalization for illegal immigrants,




BUSH http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050324-122200-6209r.htm

"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."

Mr. Bush said he will "continue to push for reasonable, common-sense immigration policy." He has proposed legislation to grant guest-worker status to millions of illegal aliens already in the United States.

[madfloridian]

32. Ah, so that's it. You approve of vigilante justice.

I don't like Bush, but he has been pretty common sense about some parts of immigration. I don't like his guest worker bill. That should not happen.

But how in the world are you going to round up millions of people and put them in camps which are basically prisons?

[hansberrym]

117. Fining employers of illegal immigrants and enforcing current law will take care of it.

I thought we agreed on that.

[barb162]

29. I think the American people have been pretty clear about

securing borders, about illegals, etc. The congress people ,who dreamt up this compromise amnesty bill as a "solution" when it creates a monstrous problem, are completely out of touch with the voters. That bill will cost the taxpayers BILLIONS. Where is this money coming from? From unemployed Americans who are in bankruptcy because they have lost their jobs to offshoring and illegals? Have you checked the national deficit and national debt lately? The last amnesty under Reagan brought more illegals here and this one will do the same. Meanwhile millions more jobs will be lost to American citizens.

[madfloridian]

33. Well, the bill died tonight.

So we can just let the government agencies like ICE round them up and ship them to prison camps. I guess we pay for them also.

[barb162]

36. I think we should charge the governments whose citizens are coming

Maybe then they'll beef up the security on their sides of the borders, instead of giving their citizens pamphlets on how to cross illegally into sovereign nations and break the laws of other sovereign nations.

That POS amnesty bill isn't dead yet. Almost, but not quite. Now if those morons in Congress want to work on a bill fining the living hell out of employers who hire illegals and building up the border security, I'll be all for it. And if they want to start going after employers like Bill Gates singing the praises of how he needs more H1B visas while he's firing his American work force, I'll support them too. We need some stricter trade laws and protectionism if we want to stay alive as a country.

[madfloridian]

37. You can give some sort of amnesty or round them up by the millions.

You can do one or the other. When countries start rounding up people they become too punitive.

I would rather pay for an earned path to citizenship than pay to round 12 or more million up and jail them for indeterminent times.

Then fine the employers and secure the borders.

[barb162]

39. Please explain why the Reagan amnesty just brought in more millions

Amnesty DOES NOT work. It didn't work then and it wouldn't work now, especially the way this bill is written. Unless they are sent back to their own countries and security is beefed up and employers are fined , you'll just encourage more to come here. And it will be way less expensive to send them back to their home countries than paying for the education, medical care, etc., of people bringing in their sick parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, kids, etc. We are not talking 12 million people with that bill. I bet it's more like 50-100 million people that would come here under that humanitarian/ family clause. If the governments of these foreign nationals want to send planes here to take their citizens back, the whole detention thing can go a lot faster.

[madfloridian]

40. Then your other choice is to arrest all the ones who are here.

Put them in the camps, jails, detention centers. Pay for the rounding up and then pay to ship them home.

I don't see any other solution.

[barb162]

41. Deportation will be way cheaper than any other solution.

[Morgana LaFey]

102. absolute nonsense

First, they contribute in innumerable ways. You'll pay easily twice as much for your food if all the illegals are shipped home.

Second, they pay a lot of taxes. Whether or not they pay income tax is debatable, tho if some can get social security numbers then they darn sure do, but they also pay sales taxes and other taxes as well if, for one example, they're allowed to get drivers licenses and buy cars. The Repubicans pout that they get to buy houses -- in which case, they pay property taxes.

[IndyJones]

46. No need to "round them up". Cut off social benefits and jobs. Stop creating incentives for them

and simply enforce current immigration laws.

Why should anyone believe they will enforce new laws when they are not enforcing current ones? It's smoke and mirrors, nothing else. Just enforce current laws, period.

If you want to pay for their path, adopt a family. You pay their way, give them employment in your home, pay to educate their kids, pay their medical, make sure they do not commit crimes, etc. Stop asking the US taxpayers to pay for them.

[madfloridian]

47. Wow.

The media has done their job well of presenting only one side.

What can I say?

I expected people to disagree, but I did really expect this level of hatred.

[barb162]

67. I see no hate, none at all.

What I see is American citizens losing jobs, going bankrupt, losing their houses.... And I am fed up with it.

Let ALL immigrants apply LEGALLY to be in this country and let them wait their turn.

[athebea]

69. Precisely...

... A left that will put 'compassion' to foreigners ahead of fighting for working Americans has no reason to exist, much less expect those self same Americans to support it at the ballot box. The left must stand for more than the manners and mores of the overclass, academia, and Hollywood (and it strikes me as a characteristic of the academia left that they never take cost into account). It must stand for the real socioeconomic interests of working Americans.

[madfloridian]

70. Is that a threat you just made???

"A left that will put 'compassion' to foreigners ahead of fighting for working Americans has no reason to exist"

[athebea]

71. Funny how you try to evade and distort what...

... other people say. But those whose position is based on sentiment instead of reason and facts can only argue by accusation.

[barb162]

73. I personally know so many people who have lost their jobs

and I am sick of it. From people who have high school educations to people with multiple advanced degrees. It shouldn't have been happening. What's really disturbing right now is that I think neither party on this issue stands for the average working American, the average American voter, though there are some individuals in Congress who do. How did that amnesty bill protect American citizens, American workers who are an or have lost their jobs? It didn't. The big mojo party leaders from BOTH sides of the aisle put their imprimatur on that damned bill; Kennedy, McCain, Reid etal. My view is that until every American worker / citizen has a job he or she is capable of performing, we shouldn't be talking about bringing in immigrants or offshoring. American workers are getting treated like dirt these days.

"It must stand for the real socioeconomic interests of working Americans." Damned right!

[madfloridian]

49. ICE is already "rounding them up" in large numbers.

So that is a moot point.

[Karenina]

124. And HERE is the reason for that.

Good on ya, Madfloridian for being so dedicated and clearsighted. :hug: Watching America from afar, the far-too-common racist, hateful nature of her citizens is quite the sight to behold, blinding them to the simple adage: SPOT THE LIE... FOLLOW THE MONEY.

Note the date on this article. This has been in the pipelines for YEARS.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0233/solomon.php

The Gatekeeper: Watch on the INS
by Alisa Solomon
Detainees Equal Dollars
The Rise in Immigrant Incarcerations drives a prison boom
August 14 - 20, 2002

It was a shaky spring for the correctional workers of Hastings, Nebraska (pop. 24,064), as the stagnation in the nation's prison population and the increasingly high costs of incarceration jostled the sleepy town, some two hours' drive from Lincoln. On April 9, the 84 employees of the Hastings Correctional Center were told that the 186-bed facility would be closing at the end of June. State funds were scraping bottom, and the $2.5 million annual price tag for the prison was too big a burden to carry. "We really didn't know what we would do," says Jim Morgan, who had been working at HCC for 15 years and lives to this day in the house where he was born. "There aren't a lot of job opportunities out here, and most of us have homes and kids and couldn't even think about moving somewhere else." For two months, the workers scrambled, filling out applications at nearby meatpacking and cardboard-container plants and anticipating long hours in the unemployment office.

Then salvation came from, of all places, the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Days after HCC closed as a state prison in June, it reopened as an INS detention center. "It's a win-win," says Morgan. The INS is desperate for more beds for its ever expanding detainee population. And the state of Nebraska, collecting $65 per detainee per day from the INS, rakes in more than $1 million a year over and above the cost of running the place.
County jailers have long known that housing INS detainees pumps easy income into the coffers. Nearly 900 facilities around the country provide beds for the INS, and in interviews over the years, several county sheriffs and wardens have described such detainees as a "cash crop."

Passaic County Jail in New Jersey learned the lucrative lesson after 9-11, as INS transfers boosted its detainee population from 40 to 386 by December 18. The INS paid $77 per day per detainee, compared to New Jersey reimbursements of $62 for state prisoners; some $3 million in INS payments poured into Passaic last year.

Now, in places like Hastings all around the country, prisons are seeking to cut such deals on a larger scale. At the end of July the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported a decline in the state prison population, reversing a decade-long trend that produced a prison-building boom across America. The only incarcerated populations sustaining reliable growth now are INS detainees and federal prisoners, many of them noncitizens. Those with an interest in keeping multitudes behind bars—whether public employees working in the prisons that expanded in the '90s, or for-profit companies that have seen their stock prices plunge in the last couple of years—are coming to regard immigrants as their redeemers.
Like agriculture, restaurants, hotels, and other realms of American business, the prison-industrial complex now also looks to illegal immigrants as the most promising means of keeping them afloat. The danger, anti-prison activists say, is that the pressure to fill empty cells will add even more fuel to the demand to round up immigrants.

As for the workers in Hastings, "We're sitting back smiling," says Morgan. "Nebraska is still going through a crunch, but they can't touch us. We're all federal dollars now. Congress would have to do something very big to affect our jobs—and it's not like they're going to give amnesty to everyone."

MUCH MORE at link...

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0233/solomon.php

[madfloridian]

126. Thank you for that post. "It's a win-win," says Morgan."

From your link:

"Then salvation came from, of all places, the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Days after HCC closed as a state prison in June, it reopened as an INS detention center. "It's a win-win," says Morgan. The INS is desperate for more beds for its ever expanding detainee population. And the state of Nebraska, collecting $65 per detainee per day from the INS, rakes in more than $1 million a year over and above the cost of running the place.

County jailers have long known that housing INS detainees pumps easy income into the coffers. Nearly 900 facilities around the country provide beds for the INS, and in interviews over the years, several county sheriffs and wardens have described such detainees as a "cash crop."

It's a business.

[Karenina]

127. BIDNE$$???

What, are you hispanic or something??? :rofl: :argh:

[madfloridian]

128. You saw that also? How about that?

And it is still there because I did not alert because I figured it was so outrageous no one would pay attention. But then I saw the other posts in the thread...

Like it was an insult or something. No apology yet, either.

:hi:

[Karenina]

132. Are Americans by and large

TOO STOOPID to see the big picture here? :shrug:

[smtpgirl]

53. THE IRAQ war is costing TRILLIONS and no one cares!!!!

Where did that MONEY GO!!

Bush
Cheney
Rove
Wolfitz
Rumsfled
Rice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> et. al.

We are paying for 40 YEARS of being complacent, NOW WE HAVE TO PAY!!!!!

We as voters should have had more on the table of our elected representatives instead of less taxes, gay marriage, cheaper drugs & corporate welfare.

LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE!!!!

[madfloridian]

57. Thus the wedge issues are needed to keep Iraq out of the news.

The issues Bush has used have caused such hatred that I am stunned at the responses here. It is pure hatred.

I can not believe this country anymore.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

34. It'll divide the people vs. the powerful

The latter support flooding the labor market with guest workers and new arrivals. The former doesn't.

[athebea]

72. That's exactly what it did...

... and the American people just won.

Think about it. The same solid wall of elite opinion behind CAFTA and NAFTA supported 'comprehensive immigration reform'. ALL the MSM. The pundits, big business... But the American people quite rightly saw this as an elite alliance against them and fought back and won.

The speed and ferocity with which opposition arose is an incredible testament to the power of the internet to smash MSM attempts to mold a 'consensus', to define a 'mainstream'.

[madfloridian]

35. I think there are times we must speak up for what we believe.

DU has changed so much that I knew I would see little agreement.

But I feel very strongly that you must always put the blame where it belongs.

This time the blame falls on the government, both parties, who are not enforcing laws we already have.

Fine the employers, secure the borders.

The immigrants did not send the jobs overseas. You can not blame them for the loss of our manufacturing jobs. Now the white collar jobs are being sent overseas. You can not blame them for that either.

It is wrong for America to have secret detention camps, prisons, jails, whatever you call them. It is wrong to have private ones as well. You do not take nursing babies away from their mothers, you do not put children in prison garb.

I know many people here agree with me. I don't expect them to say so. That would not be popular. Not good to openly agree with me here.

But I had to say it because somebody needs to do so. And if I reach the point I can no longer feel sadness for the inhumane things we do, then I would not feel alive anymore.

[AuntPatsy]

42. I agree and it is heartbreaking that some cannot seem to connect the dots to see the whole truth.

[madfloridian]

48. Thank you.

I did not expect utter hatred to show. I think the media has presented one side only for so long that it is not fixable.

I don't mind the criticism, I mind the hatred toward a group of people.

[Narragansett Beer]

74. Hatred Card?

madfloridian, I haven't seen any 'hate' in the posts responding to your OP.

It seems so often know there's one of two cards played with respect to the immigration discussion (which I think is a healthy one), and it's either the 'race' card or the 'hate' card.

In either case, it demeans the words themselves to use it so freely. It's also called 'hyperbole'.

Unions have suffered at the hands of two events in this country: globalization of the economy (out-sourcing,etc.)and large-scale illegal immigration from the South. Compassion is great, but 'reality' is the real deal...and you have to recognize it. I do not believe allowing the oft-mentioned 12 million (and I suspect the actual number is significantly higher...but that's just a guess) illegals into this country will be beneficial for my kids (or just as importantly, my country) over the long-term, and their kids, and so on...economically or socially. But that's just my opinion. Has nothing to do with 'hate'...sorry.

[athebea]

76. During this entire debate

... the MSM and pro-illegal forces tried name calling to stigmatize working Americans trying to protect themselves.

The MSM tried and failed to create a 'mainstream' and define everyone outside it as 'neanderthals' and 'nativists' and 'xenophobes' (after their performance I shed no tears for the demise of the daily newspaper). Like the way Madfloridian is trying to do with her 'haters' stuff.

It failed because obvious socioeconomic self interest trumps self-serving attempts to preach political correctness. It is not in our interest to import Mexico's poverty problem. It is not in our interest to see America look like Brazil with el padron in the white suit and the fortified walls surrounded by slums.

[madfloridian]

78. We are seeing propaganda in full mode today. The opposite of reality.

"The MSM tried and failed to create a 'mainstream' and define everyone outside it as 'neanderthals' and 'nativists' and 'xenophobes' (after their performance I shed no tears for the demise of the daily newspaper). Like the way Madfloridian is trying to do with her 'haters' stuff. "

Just like Bush....turn it into the opposite of reality and go with it.

It is amazing to watch.

Amd the immigration problem has been turned in something that all my fault because I said we should not round up millions of adults, children, and babies and put them in prison camps in orange jump suits.

So be it.

[madfloridian]

84. I am not the one being "demeaning" to anyone here.

I see in some of these posts a fear and hatred of people who are not citizens.

I demeaned no one at all.

This whole thread scares me. I did not expect agreement, but I was not prepared for the vitriol.

I think it is too late for our country to handle this issue rationally. They succeeded almost this well on the issues of women's rights and gay rights. Violence occurred there also. I expect it to now.

I hate to say it is too late, but I say it now.

[Ravi]

50. Most illegals are native to this land

Most of the Illegal Immigrants from Mexico are Natives to american land and they are not spanish who immigrated to this land and the Europeans are now started hatred against this community b/c they are afraid. europeans settled on this land implemented genocide or pushed natives into mexico. we are living through the times of ancient history like who ever has power use against minorities. this is defining moment either to tolerate attrocities of whites or fight back.

[barb162]

52. They are native to the area now known as Mexico, not the US.

The "native" peoples of the area called Mexico and points south were not inhabitants of NY or San Francisco or Philadelphia or other areas north. Please don't rewrite history. As to your point about genocide, I would direct you to topics such as the Aztecs and other pre-Columbian peoples conquering other native peoples and enslaving or murdering them to take the land they were inhabiting. It was not paradise in the Americas before the Europeans came. Prior to the Europeans , conquest after conquest was going on in the Americas.

[smtpgirl]

51. The problem with immigration is that it has been on the

doorstep since the 1960's with Cesar Chavez, it was not addressed then. Almost 40 YEARS and this is now a barn-burner issue.

So why is it an issue now. Sheesh, anything to get a vote!!

Politicians are too little, too late. I agreed with the Immigration Law that WAS on the table. How can you really "dispose" of people like that???

Did St. Ronnie have an answer?? No he was too busy cutting funds & taxes.

Oh, I know, because they are brown, not white.

Would this be tolerated in the late 1850's & early 1900's?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez


César Chávez and Illegal Immigration
In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of illegal aliens as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and U.S. Senator Walter Mondale.<2> In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report illegal aliens who served as temporary replacement workers as well as those who refused to unionize to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.<3><4><5><6><7>

In 1973, the United Farm Workers set up a "wet line" to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States.<8> During one such event in which Chávez was not involved, some UFW members under the guidance of Chávez's cousin Manuel physically attacked the strikebreakers, after attempts to peacefully convince the illegal aliens not to cross failed.<9><10><11>

The UFW during Chavez's tenure was committed to immigration reform. Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta fought the bracero program that existed from 1942 to 1964. Their efforts contributed to Congress ending the program in 1964; The UFW was one of the first labor unions to oppose employer sanctions--a federal law that made it illegal to hire illegal aliens in 1973.<12>.

So now in the fray, I believe the succession of Presidents goes like this----

Nixon
Ford
Carter
Reagan
Bush
Clinton
Bush

Add it up, WE AS A NATION & CITIZENS did not care for almost 40 years, why now!!!

[madfloridian]

65. ICE warned employers, even met with them and gave them names

So they knew.

"Nine days after the January 15 action ICE agents came out to the plant.

According to Meatingplace.com, ICE gave the company advance notice the day before. Agents arrived with a list of workers, and company supervisors escorted them to the room where the migra was waiting. "We didn't want to do anything to upset our employees," Smithfield spokesperson Dennis Pittman told Meatingplace.com reporter Tom Johnston. Later the company announced it would run the plant the following Saturday, to make up for the production lost the day after the raid. Keith Ludlum says he heard the company on the radio on Thursday, asking people to come back to work."

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=19&ItemID=12860

[LanternWaste]

77. Unfortunately, I think it's working...

Unfortunately, I think it's working. Even on a progressive board such as DU, it seems as though this one issue forces both argument and confrontation more than any other.

For myself, I prefer Victor Hugo's framing of the idea to put it all in perspective-- (I paraphrase) "What do we value more-- fellow human beings or imaginary red and black lines on a map?"

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

82. How about valuing AMERICAN CITIZENS for a change...

Geez, even scabs in the union-busting days were human...

[madfloridian]

83. Where are you guys getting your talking points?

Value America citizens? Who is teaching that kind of thing?

These are the major union-busting days still.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

85. Value our workers instead of the big bosses who try to turn it into a race issue

That's what this is about.

And how dare you accuse me of using "talking points?"

[Robbien]

89. If you value workers then you support fair trade right?

Dismantle NAFTA and CAFTA which impoverish third world countries.

Stop the impoverishment and you will see dramatic decreases in those brown skinned immigrants you clearly dislike so much.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

91. We do both n/t

[madfloridian]

107. Who is "we"?

that you refer to?

[madfloridian]

93. You are.

You are using them against me and others. It is false premise, accusing us of not valuing our workers. That is just made up stuff.

You must not have read my post and considered my concerns. It is like some radio host has been spouting that anyone who takes the stand that America does not put people in jail who have been here for many years....doesn't care for the American worker.

It is bullshit, plain and simple. I despair for my country because of the coldness I see now even at a Democratic site.

If you want to be considered seriously, you need to post thoughtful stuff. Two of you here are accusing others of us of not caring about our country.

That is horrible.

[athebea]

87. And Why Shouldn't American Citizens Look Out for Themselves ?

Value America citizens? Who is teaching that kind of thing?

If Mexico is looking out for itself by deliberately exporting its rural underclass to the American welfare system, why shouldn't America look out for itself ?

[Karenina]

130. Behold! Ami-land's dim

dark underbelly! Prosit! :toast:

[athebea]

88. It divides those who care about working Americans from those who do not..

Try crossing Mexico's "imaginary red and black line on a map" from the south and you'll get what's for.

Mexico has a very brutal zero tolerance policy towards illegal immigrants from Central America. So their trying to turn crossing our "imaginary red and black line on a map" into some kind of universal human right is the highest hypocrisy.

The issue forces confrontation between those who piously preach and posture and those mindful of the working Americans who are paying the socioeconomic cost for your "righteousness" and "compassion". There happen to be those of us with working class roots who remember where they came from.

[madfloridian]

90. Bullsh** on your assertions and spin that I don't care about American workers.

Bullshit.

You have repeatedly done this throughout this thread. You have misrepresented what I said, what I posted, everything.

You are doing it on purpose and sounding like the far right sounds with all their righteous words.

:mad: :think: :crazy: :wtf: :argh:

And I don't usually cuss, but again....bullshit.

[madfloridian]

79. 150-200 children left without parents...some nursing infants.

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/May2007/mullenneaux0507.html

It was months in the planning and over in minutes: 600 agents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) stormed a New Bedford, Massachusetts leather manufacturer in the early hours of March 6, 2007 and arrested the company’s owner and three managers on charges they hired illegal workers to fulfill millions of dollars in U.S. military contracts. Also netted in the sweep at Michael Bianco, Inc. (MBI) were 361 undocumented employees, mostly female, many the mothers of small children.

All but 60 of the workers were booked and flown to federal detention facilities in Texas; the rest are being held in Massachusetts. Despite ICE’s insistence that it took “extraordinary steps to ensure that no child was separated from his or her primary caregiver,” between 150-200 children, some nursing infants, were left with relatives, at daycare centers, and even with total strangers like landlords. Attorneys working pro bono are currently battling the government in court to have the workers reunited with their families.

“It’s been a widespread humanitarian crisis here in New Bedford,” said Corinn Williams, who heads the city’s Community Economic Development Center (CEDC). Governor Deval Patrick and Senators Kerry and Kennedy expressed outrage at ICE’s heavy- handed tactics and promised a Congressional investigation. Implying those arrested were victims of a failed U.S. immigration policy, Kerry said: “Some of them have been here for 13 or 14 years. Whose fault is it that 13 or 14 years have gone by and there is no comprehensive immigration reform yet?” Kennedy had even harsher words for ICE. Speaking in New Bedford after meeting with families March 11, he said, “I don’t want to go back to the Senate and hear from Administration officials about family values when what we have seen here is the tearing apart of families…. The Immigration Service performed disgracefully.”

[madfloridian]

80. Just heard Dean on Ed Schultz in the archives. He was on today

He sounded pretty much like he did then. Favors a fair way for people who have good records and a good history to have earned amnesty...very much against the guest worker program still.

I agree on that.

Stream.
http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/060807DeanHoward.mp3

[Bridget Burke]

96. The "Supply & Demand" link with Immigration....

Apparently comes from economist George Borjas--the Cuban "exile" who wonders why other immigrants aren't just like him. I'd wondered about that. Here's a link from VDARE.

http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2007/05/29/borjas-on-supply-and-demand-2/

More about VDARE & its founder.
V-DARE — shorthand for Virginia Dare, the first English child to be born in what is now the United States — is a web site run by a "coalition" whose most prominent member is Peter Brimelow.

Brimelow, a leading anti-immigration activist and author of Alien Nation, argues that America is historically a predominantly white nation, and that Americans have a right to demand that it remain that way.

A past columnist for the conservative National Review, Brimelow says he once considered adding a fictional end to his Alien Nation, a nonfiction critique of immigration, about the last white family to leave Los Angeles....

Brimelow has close ties to several other leaders on the anti-immigration scene, among them John Vinson of the American Immigration Control Foundation, Llewellyn Rockwell and Jeffrey Tucker of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, and John H. Tanton of the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=175

We used to see direct links at DU to propaganda from the somewhat more respectable anti-immigrant groups. But the SPLC is good at exploring the connections.

That "supply & demand" phrase has been cropping up a lot lately. Now--we know the source!

[Robson]

103. So......if SPLC says it it must be true

LOL. SPLC has it's own agenda just as Bush and AIPAC and US Chamber of Commerce and it is all about $$$$$$....yet not one of these have the interests of the American worker as their primary agenda. Some may think that is fine but others such as myself think that the American worker is at the heart of America. The DLC may not agree.

[madfloridian]

108. A search on Brimelow and immigration....

Brings this interesting site. Your post was interesting. I have not really delved into any of this as I stay out of threads about it. But it is getting out of control with the fear and hatred factors. Then I think we must all say something about what we believe.

I don't like guest workers programs, I think those who have been here a while should be granted a way to get citizenship...I don't know who exactly or how long. I don't think they should be put in camps. I think we should secure the borders in a reasonably technical way and fine or otherwise punish the employers.

But this article is something else. Shades of Pat Buchanan.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=152

Not going to post any of it.

Yeh, the supply and demand was used against me above.

[madfloridian]

114. Did you see above that someone asked if I were hispanic.

That is the kind of racial stuff popping up now.

Actually I am not, but what if I were? Why should it matter.?

[athebea]

118. Ever heard of Adam Smith ?

That "supply & demand" phrase has been cropping up a lot lately. Now--we know the source!

Any American unskilled or semi skilled worker is perfectly aware of the effects of illegals on his wages. He certainly doesn't need me or Brimelow or whoever to tell him what he can see perfectly well.

Give working people some credit for the brains to see the obvious.

[jcrew2001]

110. It will always be better politically to put America and Americans first

even if immigration helps the country/economy. You have to worry about the people who are legally eligible to vote - so having a pro-America and pro-Americans platform will be essential.

[madfloridian]

113. So you agree we should round them up and put them in jail.

Hey, fine with me.

No one seems to be geting that all of a sudden the immigrants are dangerous, that it is something being pushed by the media.

Hey, friend...someone above just said to me..so you are hispanic.

See what we are coming down to here?

Put them in jail. I had my say.

[athebea]

120. Oh stop posturing and playing the martyr

[jcrew2001]

121. We have to keep the Cubans - they are refugees, we can't send them back

In most cases, if an illegal immigrant is caught by the police - ie speeding ticket, etc. they are imprisoned and processed for deportation. I know an Irish guy who was deported because of speeding.

"Rounding up illegals" would be creating a Big Brother/Police State, which would suck and make every American minority's life difficult.

Let the police do there job, increase the budget, secure the border - I do believe in a "Fence"/Wall, it worked with the Great Wall of China - every nation has a right to enforce its borders, otherwise we should just enact Mexico as the 51st state.

[OHdem10]

115. I have been talking about Republicans using

Immigration as a wedge for a long time. They are
so good at framing things to make them look good
and unquestionable when in reality it is a dagger.

This can get very dirty. Our side had better learn
to fight dirty.

This issue can sway rank and file Dems the wrong way
if not handled properly.

I was hoping we could get this sucker done and overwith
before the election.

[madfloridian]

116. I think it is too late for our country to regain common sense and compassion.

I did not really think so until I read this thread's comments.

I recognize some of the points being made as being pushed at sites that want a white America.

I think the final thing that showed me that there is no real understanding of what I posted is a subject line above....just one line.

"so you are hispanic"

Why in the world would someone come to that conclusion by what I posted UNLESS the fact that I was sympathetic to the plight of the immigrants being rounded up bothered them.

No, I am not hispanic. My skin is white, but why in the world should it matter.

There is a difference between disagreeing on immigration and just plain having compassion. I posted about the fact that the GOP with Rove leading was going to scapegoat another group....and they did.

And they did it well. They had the media with them.

I don't think there is much hope left now for common sense. And less for compassion.

I posted this in April about the increase in prison beds being added in various states. And the thoughtless way they have gone about it.

7,500 detention camp beds have been added in 6 states this for year for immigrants.

"Before the government said conditions had been improved, children were forced to wear urine-stained prison garb, confined to cells with open toilets up to 12 hours a day, fed bad food that led to illness and weight loss, deprived of toys in their bunks, and had received only an hour of schooling each weekday, according to court papers. Crying bouts were common. Guards threatened family separation if children continued crying or misbehaved.

"I think it is not fair to run away from torture to come to be tortured. Not physically, but mentally, psychologically and emotionally," said plaintiff Raouitee Pamela Puran in court documents. She and her 4-year-old daughter are from Guyana and seeking asylum."

[McCamy Taylor]

122. Unfortunately for the GOP, Immigration Divides Their Own Base :p

Catholics, Hispanics, Employers, Southern Rednecks---the GOP just can not keep all these groups that it used to try to court happy with its new emphasis on immigration as a combo war on drugs/terra-lite/cold war/race war.

The Democrats, on the other hand, benefit, because all the scary talk of immigration, sends the GOP into disarray. And the rude, nasty behavior of the "America, WASP at all costs forever" wing of the Republican Party is alienating Hispanics who might have been tempted to join the GOP because of abortion and other Catholic/family values issues. And the Catholic Church is going to run from the Party, because while they may hate abortion, they hate any group that sends their members back to Mexico even more. And business is going to be angry, because they need all those undocumented workers that Karl Rove is attempting to scare his base with.

Face it. Big business gets what it wants in the US and business needs Mexican workers and it needs Mexican consumers. Smart people are encouraging their kids to become bilingual NOT voting for stupid local ordinances that restrict aliens rights that will eat up tax dollars in federal court challenges.

Here is the cartoon I did about the topic last summer when the GOP rolled out this loser of an issue. I called it "The Moronic Option" or "Let's Split the Base."

http://www.grandtheftelectionohio.com/Flash/moron/moron.html

Never underestimate the ability of Republicans to shoot their own feet. They really love the 2nd amendment, and they figure God gave them a spare so it can't hurt if they shoot just one.

PS Not to do the GOP's job for them, they should have kept this issue local. As in let the Southern states where race baiting scores political points use anti-immigration as a political tool, but keep it off the national radar. However, since immigration laws and enforcement are national, maybe they were too dumb to figure out a way to do this. Trying to forge one GOP political immigration policy for Alabama and Texas and one for rural/agricultural that is the same for urban/industrial is going to rip that party apart. They may solidify their control of the southern states but lose the border states because of this stupidity.

[madfloridian]

123. Oh, thank you so much Mark Fiore.....wonderful video.

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/amnesty.html

Thanks so much

[Babel_17]

125. Why can't we go after illegal employers

and better enforce other existing laws? A lot of us "blue collar" workers are seriously feeling the pinch from the competition from the unregulated influx of workers.

I don't want camps but I do think that if we seriously go after illegal employers a lot of their workers will voluntary leave the USA.

Additionally, I'd like to see some of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest go to paying a relocation fee for those workers. Needless to say, there's a lot we need to be doing with Mexico. Some sensible job subsidies and aid for planned parenthood would be just a start.

Maybe it's just my vested self-interest speaking but there's no way I'll favor any amnesty that incorporates the working class taking it on the chin yet again.

Once congress gets the idea that american workers won't accept a bill that depresses their wages we can move ahead to getting a good one.

[madfloridian]

131. Note how education level affects ones' view of immigrants.

Just saying it is an interesting thing. I cropped part of a graph posted in another thread from a Pew poll.



Education seems to be a factor in seeing the whole picture. Because there is a big picture. We have always been a nation of immigrants, and compassion and common sense mean so much. Perhaps because more education means looking at different sources and analyzing their worth.

It is from post #24 in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3309279&mesg_id=3309279

[madfloridian]

133. A person just heard about a sanctuary city...now he calls mayors traitors.

I am amazed at how often that word traitor is used in this country now. We were traitors for not going along with the war, we are traitors if we criticize Bush...

This is a pathetic letter. Read it and be reminded how well their scapegoating has worked.

http://www.modbee.com/opinion/letters/story/13605135p-14202907c.html

"Until a short time ago, I didn't know there was such a thing as sanctuary cities. Sanctuary cities have proved to be a real threat to the security of the United States. Why? The rogue mayors of these cities will not help Homeland Security, other police agencies or the FBI keep track of illegal criminals that have crossed into this country illegally. This is aiding and abetting the enemy in time of war and that's what's called treason. I believe most red-blooded Americans would call it the same thing.
The federal government needs to deal harshly with these traitorous mayors and bring these cities back on line for the safety and security of our country. Do these naive or gullible mayors have to see our cities in ruins and us counting our dead before they get the message?

Three of the six terrorists that were planning to storm Fort Dix and kill as many soldiers as they could were living in a sanctuary city. This time, we were lucky. Next time we may not be so fortunate. Wake up, America! Have you forgotten our fallen from Sept. 11 so quickly?"