Less Dem bashing and more Repug bashing needed on DU.

[Labors of Hercules]

There are so many perfectly nasty Republicans out there, why waste your time bashing Democrats?

This is the Democratic Underground, and some of us need to remember who we are talking to here...

'nuf said.

[Mojambo]

1. I'll praise people doing good and bash people doing ill.

Party affiliation isn't going to be a huge determining factor for me personally.

[19jet54]

83. All he is saying is...

... if you just wanna fight, kick some GOP ass; but leave our family alone until we get rid of the majority of our problems?

Hell, I'm so pissed off I want to fight everybody too - But I try real hard to focus on the real enemy of our Progressive ideas!

[Mojambo]

88. If you don't think there are enemies to progressive ideas in the Democratic party, you're nuts.

They don't deserve, nor will they receive, any kind of reprieve from me simply because they slap a (D) after their name.

I know it's ugly and unfortunate, but those people need to be fought just as hard, if not harder than the Republicans, because the evil they are doing appears to come from the left.

I get the idea behind the post, I really do, but before we go saying "attack them! Not us!" we should acknowledge just who "Us" is. By my observation quite a few members of the Democratic party (upwards of 25%) simply aren't with "Us."

[ellisonz]

92. Bingo.

:yourock:

Do you hear the:nopity:?:sarcasm: not.

[19jet54]

94. I do not disagree...

... but wait until the GOP is out before fully attacking those 25% full force - There is a time & place for everything - and in the spirit of good politics, attack the "bad ideas" rather than making it personal.

[Joe Fields]

2. have you been a democrat long? lol

:toast:

[Cobalt-60]

3. Stanford Slugger on Standby

Which puke would you like bashed first?

[saracat]

4. Thank you, thank you thank you! you are 100%right!

I haven'y been posting as much due to my disgust with the anti Dem rhetoric! And I don't like some of the recent Dem efforts but many posters have been just awful. I am still proud to be a Democrat and those that don't like it can b*****ger off!

[Labors of Hercules]

18. Damn proud! and ready for a pep rally instead of this "we suck" garbage!!

CHEERS! :toast:

[saracat]

24. I want to come over for coffee too! Got enough?

[Labors of Hercules]

26. Sure, but only if you tell us what state you're in...

(Can't afford a plane ticket, but my cousin Bob drives a cab)...

[saracat]

27. Arizona at the moment!

[Labors of Hercules]

28. Ah! The perfect time to break out my new invention...

Mr. E-coffee! :hangover:

[saracat]

35. MMMMMM! Smells terrific! Donuts too?

[RufusTFirefly]

5. Are you suggesting that the Democratic viewpoint is monolithic?

After all, some Democrats barely earn the label.

That's the purpose of the primaries: to define the tone for the general election.
If you think the party is tacking too far to the Left, now is the time to drag it back toward the Right.
If you think the party is tacking too far to the Right, now is the time to drag it back toward the Left.

I for one don't intend to keep silent or pull my punches.

Once the convention is over, we'll all line up behind a single candidate.

But not before.

At least not for me.

[Labors of Hercules]

8. I'm only suggesting the Democratic viewpoint is held by Democrats.

and not by Republicans. And our dialogue would be far more interesting to me as a Democrat were it to more regularly reflect this fact.

[snowbear]

6. YAY.. I was the first person to rate this thread up....

I sure hope I won't be the last!


~~~~ GoOOOoo Democratic Underground!!!! ~~~~

[Dinger]

9. I Was The Second

Glad to do it too!:dem: :kick: :hi:

[Catchawave]

74. I was #20

:toast:

[Tom Joad]

7. Question authority.

[zalinda]

10. There are a lot of Greens who get their kicks

by bashing our guys. Of course, there is always a repub or two, but they don't stay long enough to stir up much.

You won't believe how many Nader posts end up on DU..........Nader said this, Nader did that, Nader is really a good guy, it's not Nader's fault, you get the picture.

Meanwhile, after being on this forum for the last 2 years or so, I have found that there are some here who are very vocal and love to bash the dems, they are never liberal enough for them. To tell the truth, if I were a dem politician and had worked my butt off and reduced myself to begging for money so I could get elected, I would be pretty pissed off. It seems no matter what they do, it's not fast enough, or good enough, or left enough. Some here think that the dems should be taking over the government and doing whatever they want, and if they fall short of that, then they just aren't doing their jobs.

But, I have also found that there are many people who keep their mouth shut because if they dare to speak up on these forums, they get their head chewed off. These big mouths are so full of themselves, they love to see their words up on the screen, it doesn't matter who they are bashing, maybe that's the only way they can feel good about themselves.

Anyway, count me in as one who supports the dems, while some may not be ideal, they sure as hell better than the majority of repubs that are in office now.

zalinda

[Labors of Hercules]

17. Oh, you are SO coming over for coffee...

MWAH! :loveya:

[zalinda]

19. It's a date !!! n/t

[Labors of Hercules]

22. Fabulous!! The DU Midnight coffeehouse is open!

(I'll be in the corner with you, zalinda). DND.

[Le Taz Hot]

97. I bash regularly and am neither

a Republican or a Green. To which category would you say I belong? Hmmmmm???? The reason I ask is that MILLIONS of us "fringe lefties" (who, btw, are the ones who put the majority in Congress & the Senate) fall in the same category.

You want to cast out the "fringe left?" Fine. Just don't blame us when we don't campaign for your corporate candidates, or send money or ring a doorbell. You know, the same thing some of us have been doing for 30 years. You REALLY think you can get elected without us? Not a chance.

Now, the second these "Democratic" candidates want to come back to the fold and start representing the populace, we'll be glad to welcome them back.

Until then, your "shut up and vote" meme hasn't worked in quite a while. You guys need to catch up.

[elocs]

11. I'll give you Rec #3. If you trashed the Dems you would have had 15 by now.

It's the in thing to do now. What the Democrats really need is a running poll here at DU so that everything can be perfectly decided for them. The right answers every time. The Pope should be so infallible.

[Labors of Hercules]

13. ...et spiritu sancti, AMEN. n/t

[The_Progressive]

12. You are correct.

While I have no use for lawyers I have less use for Neo-cons and their wars.

[Czolgosz]

14. K & R

[Labors of Hercules]

15. Sorry to reply to my own thread, but...

It seems some of our candidates would do as well to stop slamming each other and start slamming the f**king Cons as well...

Just sayin. :shrug:

[Tejanocrat]

16. recommendation # 5 - I'm so sick of the trollish attacks on Democratic candidates

[MannyGoldstein]

20. When 'Dems' Vote For 'Free' Trade, IWR, Bankruptcy Bills, 'Patriot' Acts...

and so forth - they ain't Dems.

There's a reason why we shoot spies, but spare soldiers dressed in proper uniform: a wolf in sheep's clothing is far more dangerous than a wolf clothed in its own fur.

[Labors of Hercules]

21. Them Dems that aint Dems, well, they aint Dems...

So, in short... What were we talking about?

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Two Of The Three Leading Dem Presidential Candidates

Voted for, or rooted for, ALL of the things I mentioned.

Shame!

Until we insist that our Dems be Dems, we will be in bad, bad shape.

[Labors of Hercules]

25. In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things...

LOVE.

Love thy Democrats, even if you disagree with them on some things. (of course there's always a line...)

[Augdog20]

29. Let's bash Rudy: Rolling Stone ‘s stinging article on Rudy Giuliani’s 9/11 failures and his profitin

Good point. Let's keep the battle focused on the Repugs. Here's a dangerous, dictatorial thug we need to expose:
The June 14, 2007 Rolling Stone has a stinging article by Matt Taibbi on Rudy Giuliani’s 9/11 failures and his profiting from the disaster! He raced to get lower Manhattan and Wall Street back in business; and now the cleanup people from the World Trade Center site are getting sick and dying early from cancer.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/14952564/giuliani_worse_than_bush

[Labors of Hercules]

30. "Worse Than Bush"... I love titles that hit two horses asses with one whip! n/t

[UrbScotty]

31. What many forget is that no Democrat is perfect.

But they're sure as hell a lot better than the other side.

[Labors of Hercules]

58. a-humongous-lot better.

[sellitman]

78. Except for my Senator

LIEberman.

He should be trashed at will.

[UrbScotty]

99. He's different - he's a Republican (nt)

[purduejake]

79. Some on the other side...

wouldn't have helped get us into this war like Clinton and Edwards.

[Trajan]

32. Hey there ....

Preaching to the choir here ....

As much as I might dislike the antics of some Democratic politicians, and as much as I would want to dislodge a few of the less Democratic ones; few deserve the awful anathemas devised and hurled at any and all of our fine crop of candidates ....

I think : "Hey ! ... Im most likely VOTING for that person ! ... STOP it ! "

Two things to remember:

1) It is ok to criticize our own ..... We HAVE to be able to speak freely on these matters ...

2) Grow a thicker skin .... It isnt just political stuff that might piss you off here .... DU is a cross section of humanity .....

Boy is it ever ...... But I still love it ....

[Labors of Hercules]

34. Thick skins are good, yes.

And I sure'n as hell don't have a problem with disagreement and speaking freely on issues, but...

There is so much single-issue/personality-bashing "shallowbabble" that clouds the discussion, Sometimes I just aint got time to read through it all to get to the real arguments. And I'm sorry, but picking one or two pet issues and denouncing every Democrat who disagrees with someone's opinion on the matter is just plain narrow.

[NavyDavy]

33. I couldn't agree more......thks for the post!

[libodem]

36. I don't see enough Republican bashing

I'll break the ice..I hate those filthy, scummy, lousy, rotten, worthless, thieving, lying, cheating, greedy, murdering, unrepentant, unapologetic, Smug, gloating, dirtbag, Republicans.

[Labors of Hercules]

49. Ahhhh... poetry! n/t

[proud patriot]

37. Annoy a Republican ....Defend The Constitution

:)

[farmboxer]

38. I Will Vote Democrat no matter who gets the nomination

but I do have to agree, we should be bashing the Nazi's, or is is Repubs? Well, appears to be the same thing......Prescott Bush? US is a madhouse with Bush & pals! Idiots!

Bush,Inc should got to prison! Total nightmare!

I rarely ever post anymore, but Repubs are really sick, except for perhaps a very few? Still, look at their platform! Sick!

[Gelliebeans]

39. Thanks for this post

kickety poo :kick:

[Pushed To The Left]

40. I agree 100%!

There's nothing wrong with criticizing or disagreeing with Democrats, but the vicious smearing of fellow Democrats that happens during primaries only helps Republicans. I live in California, and we learned that lesson the hard way in our Gubernatorial election last November!

[Forkboy]

41. Complaining about Repubs is an exercise in futility

We have zero effect on them and complaining about them is the equivalent of pissing into the wind.We'd have a bunch of threads like,"Cheney sucks!" with 100 replies saying "I agree".

On the other hand,pointing out the Dem's shortcomings,and they do have them,might actually have an effect and make a difference.Yes,some of it goes overboard and is more emotion that brains speaking,but if we can't critically analyze our own Party then we stagnate and die on the vine,and become no better than the Repubs you want us to criticize more.

Complaining about Repubs may feel good,but that's all it accomplishes.

[Labors of Hercules]

51. bashing denotes active criticism...

If those who spend ALL their time on DU screaming against Democrats would take just a little of that time to scream against Republicans, I think we'd have a much more invigorating dialogue.

[ulysses]

77. what invigorating?

We already know the repukes suck.

[leftofthedial]

42. I only bash "democrats" whom I suspect, based on their votes and actions,

of being covert repukes

If we don't clean our own house, we have no moral right to criticize someone else's

[elocs]

43. Are bashing, trashing, and belittling good methods to cause change?

How do those methods work with each of us individually? Do we perform better as adults when we are bashed, trashed, or belittled? How many of us appreciate our bosses doing that to us since after all, we are their employees? Do bashing, trashing, and belittling work well as methods within our families, with our spouses and children? Do they work well with out friends? On another level, how do these things work with our pets? Do bashing, trashing, and belittling alter our animals behavior in a good way?

Bashing, trashing, and belittling are counterproductive methods that in no way cause a positive or long term change in people or institutions for which we care. It may make you feel better, but they are poor methods for changing things or people for the better. Those are methods which children use and so they are childish. It may be good to be child-like, but not childish. To bash, trash, or belittle are signs of helplessness and simply indicate a loss of self control. Those who lose self control lose.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

44. Count me in ...

better get another pot of coffee going ... or ... is it time for a nice cold beer? :toast:

[Totally Committed]

45. There are good Democrats and bad Democrats....

I will call 'em as I see 'em, thank you.

There are, however, no such stipulations on the other side, and I say that regularly, as well.

ANYONE -- Democratic or Republican -- who sides with the forces of darkness over the forces of light will get called out.

TC

[gulliver]

46. I would just like to see more bashing and less whining.

A whole bunch of the bashing around here is just whining. I like to bash Republicans, not whine about them.

What's the difference? A lefty whine gives the opposition a sense of happiness and/or justified contempt. A bash makes the opposition feel bashed, diminished, humiliated, like they are on the wrong side...

I reserve the right to bash Dems, leaders or otherwise. I'll never bash a leader on the facile purity of their voting record. I want effectiveness, not purity. I only care if our leaders are winners and contribute over all to the maximum achievable victory by our team and philosophy over the opposition. It's not about particular people.

I don't hold with lefty whiners who seem to have no appreciation for politics. We have idiots and poseurs on our side too. Usually, they don't see themselves that way, which is kind of poignant. But I feel I have to break it to them on occasion.

[Labors of Hercules]

53. An excellent distinction you make here!

Perhaps a better title would be "Less whining about Dems and more Repug bashing needed on DU".

Yes. I think that sums it up nicely! :toast:

[sendero]

47. Those perfectly good Dems..

...are supposed to be at least impeding those perfectly nasty republican.

They are doing an abysmally poor job of it.

[Labors of Hercules]

54. And our criticizing their efforts helps them to perform better, how exactly? n/t

[sendero]

81. Actiing like everything is A OK..

.... will help how, exactly.

Politicians respond ONLY to political pressure. Period.

[depakid]

48. Rather than being self-righteous

and sticking one's head in the sand- or spouting the usual this DU *emphasis* etc., etc., how about recognizing that what this is really all about is supporting traditional Democratic values.

Candidates and office holders who do that deserve our support- those who sell us out- repeatedly, deserve NOTHING other than our derision. Indeed, Dems that legitimize and enable the far right agenda are in some ways worse both for the party and for the country.

[Labors of Hercules]

50. In actuality I agree with you, to an extent...

Sharing opinions and disagreements on traditional Democratic issues is what we're here to do. This thread is addressed to the surprising number of DUers that have so quickly and completely drawn the line against so many individual Democrats, that there is hardly a single Democrat left that they haven't denounced as "worse for the party".

And that trend IS worse for the party.

[IndianaGreen]

52. It is the primary season. Get over it!

The last thing we need is for the party establishment to subvert the rank-and-file's will as it did in 2004 in preventing the antiwar candidate from winning the nomination.

You sound like the Vatican demanding full obedience to their orthodoxy!

[creeksneakers2]

55. Disagreement is fine

as long at the disagreement is aimed toward making the party better. Much of the criticism I read is aimed at destroying the party because its not perfect. Destroying the party is self-defeating.

[Labors of Hercules]

57. Creek defines "the rut". Cheers Creek!

:toast:

[IndianaGreen]

59. Impeach Bush and Cheney

The people destroying the party are the "keep the powder dry" gang of 2004, and the "we don't have the votes" chorus of 2007.

What will destroy the party is the Democratic leadership in Congress, and their betrayal of the electoral mandate they got in 2006 to end the war in Iraq.

[Labors of Hercules]

60. And how are we going to help them fulfill that mandate?

by whining about them and saying how much they suck? :shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

63. Help them? We did our job in electing them, now it is up to them to do their job!

They had two choices:

1. Do nothing, as Kucinich advocated, and don't even bother with passing a supplemental war funding bill. The money would have run out in a few months and the war will be over.

2. Send Bush the same bill he vetoed, over and over again, as Edwards advocated.

Instead, the Democratic Congress decided to do that BOHICA dance that Bush appeasers have been doing for the past 6 years, and in doing so, they have emboldened Bush and giving him bragging rights.

What will this bunch of losers do in September when another funding bill comes up for a vote? Will they defund the war, or will they do another BOHICA dance and tell us they have Bush backed into a corner?

[Labors of Hercules]

65. I understand your point of view, Perhaps we should take it up in a different thread? n/t

[Labors of Hercules]

56. That's a bit of an extreme reaction... subversion and obedience?

I think people here are smart enough to recognize that I'm not trying to convince anyone to sit down and shut up, but more to say that some have entered a rut and might want to think about getting out of it.

[IndianaGreen]

61. The only thing that has been subverted here is the Constitution

the miserable failure is the one on the part of Speaker Pelosi in keeping impeachment off the table, and the betrayal is the one on the Democratic Congress when it refused to carry out its mandate to end the war in Iraq.

[Labors of Hercules]

64. The Democratic Congress refused?

So you mean: it isn't that they are not ENABLED through a sufficient majority to successfully convict on impeachment or immediately end the war, but that they REFUSE to do so by choice?

I disagree with that entirely.

[greendog]

62. "Working Class" Democrats shouldn't hesitate to criticize...

...those elected officials who consistently favor the "Investor Class" at our expense.

I'll say it right here in this thread: My Senator, Max Baucus, really sucks. I'll gladly donate my hard earned cash to any decent primary challenger. He won't be getting my vote in the general election either. He's a free-trade, corporatist, neo-lib freak. He sucks.

[Labors of Hercules]

66. Excellent! Now that you've got that off your chest...

Is there anything interesting you wish to discuss?

[greendog]

67. We could discuss Max's chairmanship of...

...the Senate Finance Committee.

Want a National single payer health-care plan? Sorry. Max doesn't...and he has the power to stop it.

Want to reform our trade policies? Sorry. Max doesn't...and he has the power to prevent meaningful reform.

Max is a real "fly under the radar" kinda guy. You never hear much about him. But he's been in the Senate for almost 30 years and he's got a lot of friends on K Street. He's one of the most powerful Democrats in Washington....and most of his efforts go to making the rich folks richer.

It's worth knowing about. And it's worth bitching about.

[Zandor]

68. K & R from a proud Dem! n/t

-

[dogman]

69. Self delete

[AtomicKitten]

70. agreed and thank you

n/t

[DuaneBidoux]

71. Progressive means "truth." Not Repug truth. Not Dem truth.

[LWolf]

72. This is the Democratic Underground:

The emphasis is mine.

<snip>

Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. Since then, DU has become one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards.

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

I think that the complaints currently airing about Democratic congresspeople stem from the fact that they have not protested the illegitimate presidency of GWB, and opposed it with the enthusiasm and vigor that many had hoped for.

I would say that there is one thing that Unites DU: disgust with the Republican party, the Bush administration, and their enablers.

You are hearing more frustration with Democrats because Democratic voters expect Democratic reps to do a better job opposing the opposition. Simple as that. There is a sense of betrayal when your own side doesn't stand with you against the enemy. I'm likely to be more angry about that than I am about something Republicans do. I EXPECT them to do their worst.

When Democratic reps aren't defending and working for those "liberal/progressive" ideas, when they become a group of Republican enablers, some on the "left" get angry.

There will not be enough said about this until the Democratic Party no longer pretends to represent the "left," or until those to the right of center no longer claim to be Democrats, and no longer call the center "the left."

[Labors of Hercules]

75. Yeah, and? Are we not here to do something to promote our progressive ideals?

Because to criticize, condemn and complain about those who are our BEST HOPE in making progressive change is just plain foolish.
Substituting a bitch session in the place of a positive dialogue about ways to uphold and encourage progressive reforms not only wastes our time and energy, but is ultimately self-defeating.

[LWolf]

76. That's funny. Really.

It's also a matter of opinion. You see, whether or not any individual, Democrat or not, is "our BEST HOPE," is a matter of opinion.

I believe that some Democrats ARE "our BEST HOPE." I believe that some aren't worth supporting. It depends on them. Their positions, and their record.

It's just plain foolish, IN MY OPINION, to naively believe that any politician has most peoples' best interests at heart just because of their party offiliation.

I'm happy to spend my time having constructive dialogue about upholding and supporting progressive reforms. I'm thrilled to encourage every Democrat who I believe actually wants to achieve those reforms in my lifetime.

Which is why I'm not going to give any quarter to any politician, Democrat or not, who does not adequately uphold and support progressive reforms to my satisfaction. You see, that's the most constructive action I can think of; to fully support those who actually uphold those progressive reforms, and to withhold support from those who don't.

It's self-defeating to keep supporting people who aren't working for you, waiting for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, when someday they are suddenly going to do more than spew rhetoric and avoid confronting issues.

It's naive to think that the Democratic Party "owns" progressive ideals. I support the party to the degree that the party works, today, this year, this decade, for those ideals. Works. Not gives noble speeches about, but actually takes decisive action to move forward.

[opihimoimoi]

73. I agree 100 %

Lottsa twouble makers and moles/trolls/freeps/and paid Ops.

[AZBlue]

80. I couldn't agree more. Bashing another candidate does nothing for yours.

If yours is so great, why not spend time telling us why we should vote for them instead of telling us why we shouldn't vote for another?

[slick8790]

82. I think

having the prescense of mind to "bash" democrats shows we're just more intelligent than the freepers. Bashing isn't good, but I think any kind of intelligent debate about our party shows that we're objective enough to realize the difference between good and bad governance, regardless of party. focusing all our energy on shooting down others and ignoring intraparty issues just breeds bad candidates and leaves us with poor choices. If i have a problem with someone, no matter what letter is after their name, i'm gonna say something about it.

[jobycom]

84. WOOHOO!!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[BlooInBloo]

85. You'll never get DUers to stop bashing Democrats - they claim that they're "free thinking".

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibertyorDeath]

87. Well the corporate lackey Dem's aka DLC

Need all the fucking bashing we can give

the more the better They are Dem's in name only.

[Labors of Hercules]

103. You are aware that many here seem to view Gore in much the same light?

[cyclezealot]

89. it's our party and we need perfect it.

I see lots of Repuke bashing. Also, if a minority of Democrats betray us, it should not be with impunity..

[Labors of Hercules]

104. Very true. If only that minority were those singled out...

But to single out the majority of Dems with an extreme standard of liberality that is wholly and completely untenable is, for lack of a better phrase, a problem.

[zulchzulu]

90. It depends on what you mean by "bashing"

If it's about discussing one candidate vs. another, that's politics. If it's about things you are doing for your candidate, that's certainly discussable.

If "bashing" means remaining silent and letting the status quo proceed without a wimper, sorry...then it should be called Automaton Underground...

[Labors of Hercules]

105. bashing is up to interpretation... but I would use it to mean: "to condemn".

I am speaking to those who take such a strong opposition as to "condemn" many or all Democrats because of one stance or another. To say simply, closing the door on so many Democrats because you think they are not acting to support one particular tenant of a liberal enough agenda is akin to closing the door on them because you are "pro-life".

And there is a surprizing amount of this type of condemnation or "bashing" going on all over the DU.

[grasswire]

91. thank you

I got hammered the other day for suggesting the same.

I learned that there are some who would still rather split the Democratic Party than defeat Republicans. And they are harsh and mean.

[Labors of Hercules]

106. yeah, I see what you mean...

Some have rather shitty manners as well. It makes me sad.

[ellisonz]

93. I don't bash. I deconstruct. Nuff said.

[Perry Logan]

95. Liberals should try to be a bit more partisan

I think Labor of Hercules is right. We should try to minimize our bashing of Democrats here, as it clearly plays into the hands of the enemy.

The political Right in America have a vastly overdeveloped HERD INSTINCT. They are partisan to the point of insanity, partisan to the point of treason. Wingers will vote for a lamppost if you tell them to.

We liberals, by contrast, are relatively weak in the area of herd instinct. Groupthink is not generally very strong in us.

In saying this, I intend no criticism of our tribe. We rightly believe in the necessity of self-criticism in politics. The Right Wing's inability to critique itself is part of its intrinsic pathology.

But their mindless groupthink is also one of the Right's strongest political assets. Instead of tearing themselves apart, they act as a unit, giving them political strength far beyond their paltry numbers. It would behoove us to try to minimize this advantage.

We should never stifle free thought. But maybe we could lean a little toward a bit more partisanship--at least until the Republic is saved.

[LWolf]

98. I think liberals and progressives ARE partisan, to a certain extent.

Just not to the Democratic Party. They are partisan, instead, to Democratic ideals, and are loyal to those who uphold them, regardless of party affiliation.

They are loyal to the Democratic Party to the degree that the party is faithful to those ideals. When the party drifts, so does the support of those whose first loyalty is to the ideals.

The party, meanwhile, is a machine that is about holding power. The party is willing to shift on issues to retain, or gain power. In other words, the power ranks higher than the issues.

Some Democrats are Democrats to uphold Democratic ideals. Those are the Democrats who will hold Democratic politicians accountable.

Some are Democrats because they find security and satisfaction in belonging to a group. The party will rank higher than the issues.

Those that rank party higher than issues are disgruntled by calls for accountability. They issue demands for unconditional loyalty.

Those that rank issues higher than party don't give unconditional loyalty. They issue demands for concrete action to support, defend, and move Democratic ideals forward. They don't accept excuses, "spin," or party propaganda in place of that action.

[Labors of Hercules]

107. You've hit this nail right on the head.

And what I'm advocating is greater balance...

To understand that negative effects result when we condemn progressive politicians who do not support all tenants of a rigid, extreme or dogmatic standard that is not based on a realistic appraisal of a given issue or situation, even from a progressive point of view.

We need to redirect more of this fight against those who make decisions to which we, as a Democratic and progressive body, are more solidly opposed. (Notice I am not dealing in extremes here if I can help it)...

[Le Taz Hot]

96. We don't have an 11th commandment.

Or did you forget that?

Stay tuned, boys and girls, the unity police are in full force.

[Labors of Hercules]

108. Do unto others... And I respect your opinion.

And you have every right to throw down against any Democrat you want to for any reason you so desire.

And I have every right to say that spending all your time condemning Democrats for particular reasons while never focusing attention against Republicans hurts our progressive discourse more than it helps it.

[cyclezealot]

100. pretty easy really

GW Bush is the anti christ. Should a Demo have too close an association with the anti christ, then they deserve a little bashing. A good Democrat is one who votes for the interests of our base. That base being civil liberties, civil rights, Union interests, working class issues. To think all Democrats always stick to their bases' interests is absurd. If they don't we need do a little bashing.

[cyclezealot]

101. anyone see Hillary in Detroit this weekend

Before a pre selected UAW forum. Hillary needs a little bashing. Should the reports be right, Hillary said, US policy in Iraq did not fail , the Iraqi people failed. Guess, Hillary won't be screaming , "No blood for Oil." In Detroit of all places, she defended US trade policy. Said they only thing we need is some micro tuning of CHinese trade practices and a re evaluation of the Chinese yuan. In Detroit! And the UAW allowed this. We never learn.

[flaminbats]

109. disagreement is fine..

disrespect is not, yet Republicans show respect to nobody but their dictator.

lol..so should I back George Wallace or McGovern? ;)

[ncteechur]

110. Here, here. You are correct, sir or madam!

[Redneck Socialist]

111. That's no fun

We all agree that pubs suck. An endless wave of "ooh, those nasty republicans..." posts will get old in a hurry.

"Your candidate sucks, my candidate rocks" is far more entertaining.

[Major Hogwash]

112. That's true, but even Colin Powell said he might support a Democrat in 2008!!

So, if the Dem bashing gets you down here, just think how they feel knowing that the only one to have ever served in the Bush administration with any credibility AT ALL is thinking of backing a Democrat for President next year.

That's gotta hurt.