who needs all these immigrants?

[welshTerrier2]

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/amnesty.html

[AlinPA]

1. That was good. Clearly shows US absurdity.

[shenmue]

3. Did we not have factories and farms in the U.S. before?

Are they not displacing people who live here, or am I missing something?

There is an implication in the illegal immigration "debate," that U.S.-born workers almost don't deserve to make a living--you nasty person, how dare you want a job in your own country!--whereas illegals should. Illegals by definition come in from somewhere else, so of course they are taking jobs away from people who live here. They create unemployment by displacing people. How did we get this backward?

[unlawflcombatnt]

22. You're Right

This cartoon is absurd and insulting. Illegal immigration suppresses American wages by increasing the supply of labor. Currently 7 million illegal immigrants are working in the United States.

American workers DO have a right to make a living. And they have the right to expect to be paid the free-market rate for wages. But employers circumvent the free-market by hiring illegal immigrants who not only work for less, but swell the size of the work force available to American employers.

American workers have a right to expect to be paid fair, market-level wages, and not have their wages suppressed by competition with illegal immigrant workers.

[Chulanowa]

31. No, it doesn't.

The policies that create both your lack of work AND the lack of work in the immigrants' home nations is what's at blame here.

But I guess it's easier to blame the funny-looking people who speak a language you can't be bothered to learn

[Blaze Diem]

57. Can't be bothered to learn????? How many foreign languages do I have

to learn to accommodate every group of people in the USA illegally !
This isn't like your homeland where your ethnicity has been the same for eons.
You see, my friend, here in My Country, the United States of America, we are all descendants of various regions around the world, except for the Native American Indian Tribes.

I'll try to make this simple to understand, and in my best English.
I don't believe that I, as a citizen of this nation, where the English language has been used as the common language for many many years, should have to learn the languages of all those who CHOOSE to come here, leagally or not.
Which language are you talking about?
And do you then believe that all people living in this country should "be bothered" to speak all languages, so as to accommodate all English and non-English speaking citizens and non-citizens?

Do YOU "bother" to learn languages of Russia, China, Korea, Thailand, etc. Now which language do you mean exactly? And which ones are of more or less value to you..Which one of all the languages spoken in this country, are YOU going to learn next?

What is your solution for pleasing all non-English speaking immigrants?

[Chulanowa]

59. Just one question.

We are all descendants of various regions of the world, aside from the Native Americans, this is true. You say that you shouldn't have to learn the "new" languages coming in.

I just want to know, how many Native languages are you fully fluent in? Think you could manage a little Tsalagi or Lakota here to show your dedication to the principles of not having to speak a newcomer's language?

[Blaze Diem]

60. Lakota..I grew up next to the Souix people of the Dakotas..

I have absolute reverance for their culture and their history.

What does this have to do with your sarcastic remark about 'not bothering to learn their language'?

You are requesting a certain entitlement for one ethnic group in this Country, over others.

Which language , now, are you referring to. That of the Native Americans?
Maybe you are requesting every person living in the United States learn all languages of everyone else, I'm sure you just want to be fair to all cultures, right?

hmmmm..now I just am wondering which language you are referring to...Native American? Chinese? Russian? Hawaiian Native? Certainly we could all learn all the languages spoken within this melting pot of a Nation, how many do you speak and how many more are on your "to learn" list..how's that going?
Did you know that the majority of European schools educate children to speak at least four languages?? One of them being English.

I'm finished with this subject. Obvious flame.
tks
Blaze

[Chulanowa]

61. Well, this is what you said:

"I don't believe that I, as a citizen of this nation, where the English language has been used as the common language for many many years, should have to learn the languages of all those who CHOOSE to come here, leagally or not."

Just in case you forgot.

Now first off, I would ask why in earth you apparently think you're being forced to learn another language. Secondly, I would like to know why, prithee, should everyone else HAVE to learn English? What makes you, your language, and your ethnic group (WASP, I presume?) so gosh-darned good that everyone else should have to learn it, but you shouldn't have to learn theirs?

[Blaze Diem]

67. I also asked YOU, which languages you have learned in order

to accommodate all non-English speaking people living in this country...How many cultures won't YOU be "bothered to learn" to communicate with.

Your whole point to crying a big waaaa.. over not "bothering to "learn the language, is ridiculous...if there is one at all.

Which language are you talking about anyway??
Never did say which one you are claiming a preference for.
You opened this can of worms...care to answer any questions? Or are you just here to attack.

Adios
Blaze

[Chulanowa]

68. I've learned German and Spanish

With a very halting understanding of both Chacta and Finnish. To address a point in your first reply, well, my ethnicity has been here for eons. At least a good 50% of it, anyway. I would also like to point out that nobody is trying to force you to learn their language - if only the opposite were true, huh? We might actually know what a lot of these now-dead languages sounded like. Too bad the newcomers shot all the teachers and shipped the kids off to have the crap beaten out of them for speaking the "devil tongue" rather than the same English Jesus spoke.

Now as for my initial point, it's simply that people find it far easier to blame the other people coming over the borders, than the institutions and policies that cause this. Instead of blaming our economic policies both at home and abroad that create the double-whammy of killing American jobs AND those in other nations, many Americans instead prefer to bitch about "illegals". Part and parcel with bitching about the people come the arguments of language, culture, religion, skin color, and all those other little imps of xenophobia. It serves as a nice distraction to not actually blame the causes responsible for the workers of all the nations involved.

So that's my point. When you blame the people rather than the problem, you inevitably take the first steps onto this path. Because when you blame these people rather than the policies behind their immigration, you are saying that the fault can not possibly lie with the white, Protestant, English-speaking people (politicians and those who elect them) of the United States. All the blame must therefore lay on the shoulders of the brown, Catholic, Spanish-speaking people of Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, wherever.

[amandabeech]

81. So it's OKAY to be prejudiced against folks whose ancestors

came from the U.K. and were of the Protestant religion?

Why do you think that's okay? How dare you presume the ethnicity of anyone here?

I'm reporting you.

[ellisonz]

63. I think you missed the sarcasm of the statement.

It was a jab at nativism and the poster forgot the requisite :sarcasm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothings

The term "Know Nothing" is better remembered than the party itself. In the late 19th century Democrats would damn the Republicans as "Know Nothings" in order to secure the votes of Catholics. Since the early 20th century, the term has been a provocative slur, suggesting the opponent is both nativist and ignorant. In 2006, an editorial in the neoconservative magazine The Weekly Standard by William Kristol attacked populist Republicans for not recognizing the danger of "turning the GOP into an anti-immigration, Know-Nothing party."<2>The lead editorial of the New York Times for Sunday, May 20, 2007, on a proposed immigration bill, referred to "this generation's Know-Nothings...."

[durtee librul]

71. Or maybe THEY can't bother to learn ours?????

[treestar]

48. The free market is not limited to America, though

You're competing with them whether they are here or there.

The capitalist can take his capital elsewhere (outsourcing).

Let people employ who they want, they will anyway. Then the resulting economic activity can generate more activity which leads to more jobs.

[shenmue]

2. Well, we did have a functioning economy before they got here.

Just to let you know.

Employers are doing this so they can undercut salaries. Not so they can make life better for people who want to come here. With the higher cost of living in the United States, immigrants lose the difference anyway. I am tired of this chip-on-your-shoulder, one-sided nature of the "debate" about immigration. Illegal immigration is not the same as legal, and the country was doing fine for the 200+ years before the illegal immigrants got here.

Tired crap.

[Sherman A1]

5. Agreed and Well Said.

American workers can and will do the job, we would just like to get paid a fair wage for doing so.

:toast:

[uppityperson]

8. Did you watch the whole clip to the land bridge?

Go past the first bit, when it goes black. There is a bunch more. I think you missed seeing the whole thing.

[Honeycombe8]

11. True true true true. I, too, am tired of hearing that same, tired, old argument...

That we NEED illegals to fill jobs that Americans don't want.

Who do they think held those jobs before the illegals did? Who do you think will hold those jobs if the illegals didn't have them?

A friend said that if illegals weren't here, all these hotels and businesses would have to shut down because they wouldn't have any workers anymore. Pshaw pshaw pshaw. That is such tripe. Those businesses hire illegals to UNDERCUT wages, and they pocket the difference. The hotels and businesses would have to hire Americans and green carders, if illegals weren't here. They would not have to shut down now, any more than they had to be shut down before the illegals took those jobs.

Someone asked me about a young illegal who got killed crossing some desert illegally to get a job in America. Didn't I have sympathy for him? My answer is that, yes, of course I feel sympathy for that young man. But I feel more sympathy for the American guy whose job he was going to take.

[progressoid]

20. Actually, your friend is right about hotels.

I know a company that manages about 15 hotels. Most of their hotels need to import workers for housekeeping etc. (Central America, Africa, Philippines). In theory, these people are working here legally, but the fact remains that these hotels can't find enough Americans that want to scrub toilets and make beds for minimum wage.

[unlawflcombatnt]

23. Then pay more than minimum wage

Simple solution. If they can't get enough American workers for low wages, pay higher wages. How complicated is that?

[progressoid]

33. Not complicated at all

You just need the hotel guests to pay higher rates and/or the hotel owners to pay higher wages. Chances of that happening are, well, slim.

And to add another twist to the equation, some of the hotels get primarily seasonal business in areas that have limited local populations from which to find employees. They tap the local student population to fill these positions but still come up short.

Speaking to one manager, she said her hope this year was to fill many positions with workers laid off from a local meat packing plant (many who, ironically, are aliens - possibly illegal). But these would be temporary positions, lasting until about Labor day. Last year she had to import workers from the Philippines.

I am by no means defending their business practices. but trying to point out that it's not as simple as 'paying higher wages'.

[LuckyLib]

40. Exactly. When the hotel rooms start at $200 per, and lettuce is $4 per head,

we might see some increase in wages. I'm still not convinced all those young folks out at the mall will be lining up for the jobs.

[unlawflcombatnt]

70. $4/head lettuce is nonsense

Below is a graphic from the New York Times showing how much a 40% rise in farm labor wages would affect produce prices-- a 40% wage increase would increase produce prices 2%.





The "price" increase argument is typical Corporate and big business propaganda. The main effect of increased wages would be decreased profits. The prices of hotel rooms and lettuce are determined by what consumers will pay, not how much it costs the hotel industry and Corporate agriculture.

[amandabeech]

82. I'm willing to see them raise the wage enough to get some folks.

We've been living in a cheap wage world for far too long.

You can't do that indefinitely without some really, really nasty social consequences.

I'd rather have less stuff and fewer days in hotels than live in a country with a wide gap between rich and poor and lots of instability.

We are humans here, too, and revolutions are not unknown.

Maybe that why folks don't want to give up their guns. Just a thought for the guys in the gungeon.

[tigereye]

42. you wouldn't think it would be, eh?

:thumbsup:

and after a while, immigrants, legal or not, will want the same higher, living wages that everyone deserves to be paid.

[athebea]

45. Problem is...

... that 3 million turned into 12 million and 12 million, unless the borders are secured, will turn into 30 million.

We live in a global labor glut that will inexhorably drive wages down, given open immigration policies. The only way wages ever go up is if labor becomes scarce.

[ellisonz]

64. Excuse me for a moment...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sir, you obviously do not live in the Southwest or you might have a richer understanding of what has occurred that defines the historical horizon:

ARTICLE VIII
Mexicans now established in territories previously belonging to Mexico, and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States, as defined by the present treaty, shall be free to continue where they now reside, or to remove at any time to the Mexican Republic, retaining the property which they possess in the said territories, or disposing thereof, and removing the proceeds wherever they please, without their being subjected, on this account, to any contribution, tax, or charge whatever.

Those who shall prefer to remain in the said territories may either retain the title and rights of Mexican citizens, or acquire those of citizens of the United States. But they shall be under the obligation to make their election within one year from the date of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty; and those who shall remain in the said territories after the expiration of that year, without having declared their intention to retain the character of Mexicans, shall be considered to have elected to become citizens of the United States.

In the said territories, property of every kind, now belonging to Mexicans not established there, shall be inviolably respected. The present owners, the heirs of these, and all Mexicans who may hereafter acquire said property by contract, shall enjoy with respect to it guarantees equally ample as if the same belonged to citizens of the United States.

ARTICLE IX
The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic, conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States. and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without; restriction. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu.htm

Thus began the Latino horde...:sarcasm:

[amandabeech]

83. Check your census data.

Then get back to us.

[athebea]

39. Well said

[madfloridian]

14. When do you thnk "they" got here?

My ancestors were immigrants from England, Switzerland, and Northern Ireland. They were immigrants in the 1700s and 1800s.

So when did these immigrants you speak of get here? You speak of 200 years without immigrants. That is just not true.

[amandabeech]

84. Actually, there was little immigration between the 1920s immigration

act and the 1970s or '80s, when the full effect of the 1965 act began to be felt.

In the 1930s, the number leaving exceeded the number coming to our great shores.

So I'd say maybe 60 years of low immigration.

You may be too young to remember, but there were 200 million rather than 300 million then, and believe me, the traffic and sprawl were no where as bad as they are now.

Really, I think that 300 million may be too many, and I'm not looking forward to 400 million. And they could all be from the countries of my ancestors and I still wouldn't want 100 million more.

[ulysses]

18. two odd assumptions on your part...

1. the economy has always been great, or it was until the illegal immigrants came.

2. there was some definite, recent point in time when they started coming. Before that, we never had any illegal immigrants.

[Xipe Totec]

4. Perfect. Thanks! nt

[Jim Sagle]

6. DLC, cheap labor hogwash!

[uppityperson]

7. That is good. Say no to.... k&r

[madfloridian]

9. Thank you, Mark Fiore....

Guess you will get blasted here as well. But it's ok, it is time to speak out.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1338

[welshTerrier2]

10. some are worried about American jobs

but they cloak themselves among the xenophobes and racists and the bigots and fail to understand that the battle is not between "American workers" and "those people from other countries" but rather is between human beings and global corporatism that seeks to oppress them ...

the desire to protect their livelihoods is more than understandable and reasonable but they've targeted the wrong enemy.

[madfloridian]

12. They are sounding like right wing radio hosts have done a good job.

Don't blame the corporations and the congress for moving our jobs overseas. Good jobs, manufacturing jobs...gone overseas. That is NOT the fault of the immigrants.

But the job has been done...there is no winning.

[welshTerrier2]

13. quite so ...

and the earnings of shareholders are taxed at discounted rates but not the earnings of the workers themselves ... that might just tell you a little about the government's priorities ...

globalization and all the hype about free markets is nothing more than a campaign to empower huge multi-national corporations and disempower nation states and people all over the world ... national governments are overruled by the global corporate government ... capital and greed are rewarded; workers and consumers are punished.

[athebea]

41. Xenophobes ? Racists ? Bigots ?

We live in a global glut of cheap labor in which the illegal and the offshorer are, indeed, allies against their mutual enemy. The American worker. We live in a world in which there are millions of people who will gladly do your job for half your wages. We do not have a common interest with them. They owe us nothing. We owe them nothing.

The illegal's goal is to displace the American worker and someone who wants your job is not your ally or friend in any way, shape or form.

[Mabus]

21. I just watched "A Day Without a Mexican"

It's a nice compliment to Fiore's cartoon. I watched it earlier today. It was on-demand (Starz, I think) and free, so I figured, "why not?" http://imdb.com/title/tt0377744/ The premise is that one day a mysterious fog surrounds the state of California and one by one people of Central and South American descent disappear. Gradually the remaining Californians are able to "see" how important the invisible people living and working among them really are.

There were some parts that were pretty goofy but overall it was a pretty good movie but I think it made some valid points.

[Mass]

15. Thanks - K & R.\nt

[madfloridian]

16. Immigration scapegoating has worked so well, that no one sees...

the whole story. The same words are parroted over and over..."they are taking our jobs" "protect the American worker"...

It was congress, NAFTA which started under Clinton, and the corporations after the big bucks that took the jobs overseas.

Until this last year or so when the propaganda started, there was very little of that "they took our jobs" stuff.

[unlawflcombatnt]

24. 7 million illegal immigrants are employed in the United States

Which means they took 7 million American jobs. They make up 4.9% of the participating labor force. In addition, the fact that they've swelled the labor force by 7 million workers has ALSO suppressed wages. Below is a chart from the New York Times showing this information.

[ellisonz]

25. Actually...

Your data suggests that the claim that "they took 7 million American jobs" is somewhat false, much less significant.

I'll start with the sector bar graph. Obviously, those tend to be undesirable fields to work in and given that in America we have a gospel of social mobility the truth becomes that we've created several more times new jobs of "Americans." Considering the American public opinion question it can be seen that only non-college graduates are worried because they have not advanced despite the fact that between 1993 and 2003 the number of college graduates in America increased 40% to 40 million workers. So yes, people who are not moving up the scale are feeling increased competition, but shouldn't the correct question be why those people are not succeeding. Consider John Edwards mantra of college for everyone in this light. We really should be asking why Americans need to work in fields, be janitors and housemaids, do really basic construction tasks, food prep, menial manufacturing and other lower rung tasks.

The solution is not to demand that we reduce immigration or other hardline solutions but simply acknowledge that our morally bankrupt education, healthcare, and political-economic systems encourage all too often result in uneducated, unproductive, consumptive Americans. Their jobs would not be so "stealable" if they had college degrees or other advanced vocational training. This is a national failing and not the fault of immigrants, both legal and illegal. The world economy is changing and the sooner we adapt to the new reality the better.

:nopity:

[1932]

34. There isn't a single immigrant getting paid more than the wealth he or she creates for America.

[athebea]

72. Are you aware..

We really should be asking why Americans need to work in fields, be janitors and housemaids, do really basic construction tasks, food prep, menial manufacturing and other lower rung tasks.

... that half the people in your country will always be non-college material ? Average people of average intelligence. That is, the half that competes economically with illegals.

That most of your people will always be regular Joe's doing repetitive jobs ? That we can't all be hedge fund managers ?

[madfloridian]

30. Note the way education levels affect how people view immigrants.

Just saying it is an interesting thing. I cropped this part of your graph.

Education seems to be a factor in seeing the whole picture. Because there is a big picture. We have always been a nation of immigrants, and compassion and common sense mean so much.

[athebea]

37. Educational level is shorthand for class interest

White collar professionals do not compete economically with illegals. So like you they can be piously righteous and 'compassionate' at the direct expense of the 'high school or less' working class Americans who DO compete economically with illegals.

Of course people who benefit economically from cheap labor will be much more 'pro-immigrant' than people who directly bear the costs.

[QC]

46. Yes, it's easy to be generous with other people's livelihoods. n/t

[jefferson_dem]

29. Frankly, i'm surprised to see so much of the "they took our jobs" chatter here.

The whole tone is so...dehumanizing...

[athebea]

36. More Pious Posturing

We live in a global glut of cheap labor in which the illegal and the offshorer are, indeed, allies against their mutual enemy. The American worker. The illegal's goal is to displace the American worker and someone who wants your job is not your ally or friend in any way, shape or form.

[tigereye]

43. I suspect that their goals are to find a way to feed their families

since wages are even worse or nonexistent, obviously, in Mexico.

[athebea]

44. And will working class Americans pay the price...

... of your 'compassion' ?

[tigereye]

47. I don't think that lack of compassion is the answer here....

being concerned about the benefit to all working folks here and globally of holding many employers to this standard isn't contradictory to your point.

[athebea]

51. What is dishonest...

... is your refusal to acknowledge a fundamental clash of interests.

We live in a global glut of labor. We live in a planet full of people who will do our jobs for less. It is all well and good to talk about 'holding many employers to this standard' but thinking we are going to police the labor standards of foreign countries is naive. It ain't gonna happen. Most of the world is just plain at the 1900 company town, company police, paid in scrip at the company store, Triangle Shirtwaist Factory level of workers rights and safety standards.

It's an either-or. Given a global labor glut its not a win-win. You can protect the jobs and livelihoods of American workers or you can 'compassionately' give away their jobs and livelihoods to save the world.

[tigereye]

53. no, I see the complexity

but I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too, since I do think US policies affect the work cultures of other countries in the long run, for good or ill.

Can't argue with you any more, since I'm a mod, so let's leave it at that.

:hi:

[amandabeech]

86. Right now it's China that affects the work cultures of other countries,

not the U.S. Is that complex enough?

Corporations ask their suppliers to meet the China price, not the U.S. price.

That means the price without a living wage, unions, Fair Labor Standards Act, OSHA, environmental regulations, food and drug regulations, construction regulations, Civil Rights Acts, Disability employment acts, Age Discrimination employment acts, and free speech.

As far as I can tell, lots of places competing with China, like Mexico, for example, don't enforce the laws even if they have them on the books.

And the Chinese don't give a rats ass about us.

We need to take care of ourselves because nobody else will.

You can eat your cake now, and think that you have it, too, for now. Who knows if you'll still have it in the future.

[ellisonz]

62. I agree it's a matter of fundamental clash struggle...

:rant:

Marx hated the peasants because they were stupid and silly, Mao loved them for that but demanded they have leadership. I think the middle road is somewhere in between. That means we need to both fight the power-elite and mitigate bourgeois greed while at the same time raising up the bottom. It is not an either/or situation, that is black and white thinking and actually is counterproductive to the worker's revolution. What the hell do poor people gain by fighting other poor people? I want to scream everytime I hear a report about another factory raided x/illegal immigrants arrested. Fuck that bullshit, arrest the owners and throw away the key. Whatever happened to "workers of the world unite?" Intellectuals are the vanguard of the worker's revolution. The problem is that we now teach to the test, humanities and social science degrees are either filled with corporate mumbo-jumbo (see the Chicago school of sociology) or are hollow academic exercises. Whatever happened to moral history? Whatever happened to the concept of justice? Capitalism is diseased and is beginning to decay. Long live the People's Liberation Army!:sarcasm:

[athebea]

38. The jobs that illegals have now...

... once upon a time, Blacks had.

Who do you think worked in Tyson Foods twenty years ago ? Why do you think relations between Blacks and Hispanics in California are now violently hostile ? The same zero sum socioeconomic competition that existed between Blacks and Irish in the mid 19th century exists now.

What is this 'overseas' stuff you keep talking about ? It is a two front war against working Americans. One front is to ship a job overseas. But not all jobs can be shipped overseas. A hotel in Cleveland has to be in Cleveland. A poultry processing plant has to be where the chickens are. A house in Costa Mesa can't be built in Taiwan. Jobs that can't be shipped overseas are given to illegals. Illegals are another front of the cheap labor lobby's war against working Americans.

[treestar]

49. And there's no way they "take our jobs" anyway, since we are easier

to hire and can be hired without exposure to criminal penalties. We can move around to any part of the U.S. to where the jobs are - it's a big country.

Also it is silly of us to claim we are entitled to any job. We would take jobs abroad if it benefitted us, and would whine if the country's immigration laws made it impossible to do legally. Or if a foreign company invested in the U.S. and hired us, we wouldn't shun that job because it "belongs" to someone who lives in the country the investor came from.

We have to get past the absurd idea we can seal the economy in the 21st century. We didn't do it in the 19th century, and we did fine. In the modern age, so many jobs can be done from wherever, and aren't location bound. We act like it's 1807 rather than 2007.

We probably have higher skill levels and demand better jobs than those the illegals are getting.

[athebea]

52. Was any of that the least bit influenced by...

... any objective reality or was it just the usual libertarian let them eat cake ?

[treestar]

54. Reality is reality

It ain't going away. We are competing just like everyone else. American exceptionalism does not put us above everyone else. We've got to be as smart, as willing to work, etc. If we're not, we can't escape the consequences.

[athebea]

56. More Libertarian Crap

[LBJDemocrat]

78. "I guess the worker will have to learn to adapt."

Quoth the tenured college professors and investing class of this country.

[amandabeech]

87. You need to read up a little on 19th century history.

Yes, we had nearly open immigration, but we also had tariffs, which were probably more important than slavery in starting the civil war. This place was a lot more sealed than you think.

It's a big country, but there aren't that many decent jobs and some that were decent, like construction, aren't anymore. If you post here, you should know just how phonied up those unemployment statistics are. If not, Google is your friend.

And no, we can't get hired in other countries because they actually have borders and want to keep jobs for their own countries. Been to Europe? It's very hard to get work there if you don't have a work permit.

"We" must apply only to some people with educations or specific skills that aren't commonly found in second and third world countries. It sure doesn't apply to everyone living here.

I suggest that you get out a little more and visit your local library. Forget the net--the history stuff is crap.

[amandabeech]

85. Where have you been?

I first remember this debate in 1981 in Texas.

Believe me, nobody's parroting anything.

Since Clinton and the corporatists have take the jobs overseas (where mine will go in a couple of months), we need the cruddy jobs left here for those who are legally here.

You don't suppose India will let me in so that I can have my job in a few months, do you?

Why don't you also blame the Mexican government and wealthy Mexicans for not doing anything to get jobs in Mexico?

Why don't you ask the Mexicans why they continued to have 6-7 kids per family through the 1970s? Nobody here was doing that then. Why should we pay for their failure to get with the family planning program?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. That's great!!

[ulysses]

19. LOL

"the committee to keep all the others out" :D

[polichick]

26. To answer the original question...

We sure don't need all these immigrants ~ we need ZERO POPULATION GROWTH! We don't need more immigrants ~ and we don't need American families having more than two children. Environmental scientists have said over and over again that we reached safe sustainability numbers in the 1960s, and warn that we are on a road to disaster. This issue has nothing to do with racism or being compassionless about the poor, and everything to do with survival.

All this bleeding heart pc stuff only keeps us on the road to disaster ~ if you want to take care of poor huddled masses, do volunteer work in any American city any day of the week. You'll find enough poor people to keep you busy for a hundred years! As for the poor in other countries ~ we should be exporting help, not importing people.

Where's our compassion for our own children and grandchildren? We're sacrificing their future in order for business to have a constant flow of cheap labor. There's no compassion in it ~ or wisdom either.

[LWolf]

35. Zero population growth.

The issue that NO ONE will take on.

Yet, unrestrained human population growth is the greatest threat to the planet, imo.

[ellisonz]

65. Bingo.

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race. The vices of mankind are active and able ministers of depopulation. They are the precursors in the great army of destruction, and often finish the dreadful work themselves. But should they fail in this war of extermination, sickly seasons, epidemics, pestilence, and plague advance in terrific array, and sweep off their thousands and tens of thousands. Should success be still incomplete, gigantic inevitable famine stalks in the rear, and with one mighty blow levels the population with the food of the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Malthus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe

[amandabeech]

88. YES!!!! FINALLY!!!

[ileus]

27. the state road contractors here in Va...

[polichick]

28. Yep, that's exactly what it's about...

But whether uncontrolled (and uncontrollable) immigration is a function of Rep greed or Dem "compassion," the result is the same ~ way too many people for environmental sustainability, an overwhelmed infrastructure, fewer jobs for Americans, and a mess of potentially insurmountable problems passed down to our children. In one word: irresponsibility. Native Americans looked ahead 7 generations; we think in terms of fiscal quarters and election cycles.

[thethinker]

32. Interesting article about this . . .

This is a link to article that was posted earlier and got very little attention. It is about how exploited many of these immigrants that come in under the guess worker program really are:

http://tinyurl.com/2me2se

These are immigrants that are coming in legally. You can imagine what employers are doing to ones coming in illegally. Many of these people are working under very bad conditions and being short changed on pay, etc. They are afraid to complain because they would be deported.

I know many of you think the solution is to give them all citizenship. I don't think that is the answer for anyone.

The employers want immigrants in this country to depress wages. With the guess worker program which is bringing in many professional people as well regular labor, is depressing wages big time. Why should they pay an American 40,000 when they can pay a guest worker at 10,000.

I can't find any information on it at the moment but someone in congress is trying to pass a bill or an amendment that says a company can't have a huge layoff and turn around and import immigrants on the guess worker program.

If we want to help these people, I think the answer is take a look at their working conditions and pay. No human being should be treated this way.

[treestar]

50. Whoever wants to hire them and whoever is related to them

usually needs them to be here. What's it to the rest of the people in this country?

[thegreatcause2]

55. BUSH'S ANSCHLUSS

bush wants to create a reich with a supply of slave labor.

[GA_ArmyVet]

58. Big Business

and Cheap Labor movements. Any underground work force can be exploited and underpaid. My opposition to any amnesty/pardon/ of current undocumented/illegal immigrants is that it wont solve anything. Business will just bring more in and start the whole slave wage labor force again.

[ellisonz]

66. Welcome to DU!

Then logically the solution is not to continue the, my God I agree with GWB, "the status quo is unacceptable," but rather to crack down on the employers while working to find a functional system. The reality is that we cannot build a Berlin Wall on the Southern Border both politically and practically. Your second and third sentences are actually contradictory; logically the solution is to bring that work force (too large to deport) out of the underground so they aren't so completely exploited while reforming the immigration system and securing the border (cartels and coyotes are threats) otherwise we will have failed and the "problem" will become politically and socially unbearable. Big business has been doing that since the dawn of European settlement in the America's (see slavery). The only way to stop the machine is through sabotage, not deprivation of labor resources. They'll just exploit Americans.

:beer: or :donut:

[LBJDemocrat]

80. Welcome to DU!

It's good to know that there are sensible, pro-labor people coming into DU, not just globalists with complexes.

:toast:

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

69. Offensive corporatist propaganda

I'm sorry but I'm sick of people posting this pro-wage-suppressant bullshit.

Why don't you try working an unlivable wage? See how you like it. I thought Americans were supposed to stand up for each other, regardless of whether they're rich or not, or skilled or not.

[durtee librul]

73. Amen...but they gotta get citizenship first and do so legally

and then....

But I guess I would like to ask something - first I work for an automotive company who is ALWAYS outsourcing to other countries for cheaper costs...the usual reasons so I get to travel to these places and all I want to know is WHY these people can't start standing up in thier own country and demanding better conditions? (I know we can't even oust Bush) but I have to ask.

They are all hard workers, but some of the factories I have been in are nothing short of criminal with working conditions and young teens working there to support thier families. yeah, I know, why does the company continue to do business with these places? GREED. PROFITS...the hell with the disposable workers. After all, they are all pro-life which means the labor supply will be endless (not the workers, the company).

Anyhow, just wondering.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

75. Making money in DOLLARS is very very attractive

They can send the money home, and it's pretty much a fortune compared to what they'd earn in peso rates.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Same as they're supposed to stand up for womens' reproductive rights. Same as they're supposed to

stand up for civil liberties. Same as they're supposed to stand up to would-be government nannies and censors that would tell consenting adults what they can read or watch in the privacy of their own home. Same as they're supposed to stand up for the right of our gay and lesbian friends to full equality, including the right to get married. Same as they're supposed to stand up for separation of church and state. Same as they're supposed to stand up for the right of cancer patients to smoke a joint without having to worry about DEA agents kicking down the door. Same as they're supposed to stand up for the right of Willie Nelson, or any other consenting adult who isn't endangering anyone else, to do the same. Same as they're supposed to stand up for the right of the terminally ill to a pain-free exit of their own choosing without interference from big-hair televangelists and self appointed medical experts in the U.S. Senate.

For the record, I strongly support a liveable minimum wage. And a SPHC system. I think THOSE are the ways we appeal to the so-called "heartland values" crowd, NOT by tossing our commitments to personal freedom overboard. FYI.

[jcrew2001]

74. Does the US allow amnest for citizens from communist countries?

like Cuba, China, etc. I think it would be interesting to allow for greater Chinese immigrants, espicially since many were brought over in the past for projects like the railroads. If its greater labor that our economy needs, we can find labor in asia instead of mexico.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

76. No thanks. The Communist Chinese can stay where they are

They're already infiltrating the tech and finance sectors, displacing American citizens who shell out tens of thousands of bucks on college education.

[jcrew2001]

77. yeah, many chinese nationals have been caught

supplying secrets to chinese officials. But if they work here in the US, they are being hired because of their education, because other americans cannot do the jobs. But we do have a problem with outsourcing to factories and software piracy in China. Strangely, it won't be a cold war or a military war with China, instead it will be an "Economic War" for economic dominence and technological and intellectual advancement. Yes, the Chinese govt is interested in military buildup, but not to the point to directly threaten or confront the US military. They do want to build a navy to eventually take-over Taiwan - but I don't think the US wants to go to war over Taiwan. Besides, when that happens, the Chinese govt will be very capitalistic and with its growing economy and education, democracy will grow among the middle-class. Taking over Taiwan would be more of a gradual/partnership than by overwhelming force.

[LBJDemocrat]

79. "they are being hired because of their education, because other americans cannot do the jobs."

No. There are plenty of underemployed finance and computer science grads. And unemployed. The H1-Bs are being hired because they work for cheaper, or are reputed to.

Capitalism doesn't lead to democracy, though democracy often leads to capitalism. If the former were the case, then the US embargo on Cuba and on North Korea would make no sense.

As for Taiwan, the US has a written obligation to defend Taiwan. Taiwan is just as worthy of US protection from invasion as Europe or Israel, and for the US to break a defense treaty would severely damage our country's reputation.