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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:59 AM
Original message
Obama Would Use Unilateral Force for "Vital Interests"
By David Swanson

There is much that I can agree with or tolerate in Barack Obama's new article in Foreign Affairs. On the occupation of Iraq, he does not favor completely ending it, and he does not mention the ownership of oil, but he does say:

"e must make clear that we seek no permanent bases in Iraq. We should leave behind only a minimal over-the-horizon military force in the region to protect American personnel and facilities, continue training Iraqi security forces, and root out al Qaeda."

Obama is no George W. Bush. But then, neither was candidate Bush what he and Dick Cheney have been in office. And preferability to Bush is far too low a threshold, I think, to merit support as a candidate for president. It is an indication of how far to the right Washington opinions on war and peace have shifted, that a Democratic candidate for president can write the following:

"I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened. We must also consider using military force in circumstances beyond self-defense…."

Elsewhere in the same article, Obama indicates that Iran and North Korea are nations he believes the United States should consider attacking. To his credit, Obama advocates talking first (albeit while imposing deadly sanctions on the Iranian people). But the option of unilaterally attacking in the name of "vital interests" is one he explicitly keeps open. The First Gulf War is a model he holds up. And he goes a step beyond Bush-Cheney doctrine by indicating that he will dispense with the pretense of self-defense.

It may be quaint in this day and age to point out that this is to advocate open criminality, that wars of aggression are crimes under international and US law. Yet, somehow I can't help thinking this is important. No matter what noble interests a war is justified with, no matter how inclusive the coalition that supports a war, if the war is not fought in self-defense or with UN Security Council authorization it is illegal. And it is illegal for good reason: war is far more horrible than almost any wrong it can be used to right.

Obama would like to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons but says not one word about reducing US nuclear weapons. His concern is other people's weapons. Obama appears completely oblivious to the fact that the US military is putting our grandchildren into debt and is funded at a rate greater than all of our supposed enemies' militaries combined. Rather than leading the way toward disarmament, Obama promotes a larger military. And if that leads, as it must, to greater pressure to use that larger military, well that doesn't seem to be a problem for Senator Obama.

For those who can stomach it, here's the short section of Obama's article devoted especially to the wise and generous American makers of weapons:

"To renew American leadership in the world, we must immediately begin working to revitalize our military. A strong military is, more than anything, necessary to sustain peace. Unfortunately, the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps, according to our military leaders, are facing a crisis. The Pentagon cannot certify a single army unit within the United States as fully ready to respond in the event of a new crisis or emergency beyond Iraq; 88 percent of the National Guard is not ready to deploy overseas.

"We must use this moment both to rebuild our military and to prepare it for the missions of the future. We must retain the capacity to swiftly defeat any conventional threat to our country and our vital interests. But we must also become better prepared to put boots on the ground in order to take on foes that fight asymmetrical and highly adaptive campaigns on a global scale.

"We should expand our ground forces by adding 65,000 soldiers to the army and 27,000 marines. Bolstering these forces is about more than meeting quotas. We must recruit the very best and invest in their capacity to succeed. That means providing our servicemen and servicewomen with first-rate equipment, armor, incentives, and training -- including in foreign languages and other critical skills. Each major defense program should be reevaluated in light of current needs, gaps in the field, and likely future threat scenarios. Our military will have to rebuild some capabilities and transform others. At the same time, we need to commit sufficient funding to enable the National Guard to regain a state of readiness.

"Enhancing our military will not be enough. As commander in chief, I would also use our armed forces wisely. When we send our men and women into harm's way, I will clearly define the mission, seek out the advice of our military commanders, objectively evaluate intelligence, and ensure that our troops have the resources and the support they need. I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened.

"We must also consider using military force in circumstances beyond self-defense in order to provide for the common security that underpins global stability -- to support friends, participate in stability and reconstruction operations, or confront mass atrocities. But when we do use force in situations other than self-defense, we should make every effort to garner the clear support and participation of others -- as President George H. W. Bush did when we led the effort to oust Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991. The consequences of forgetting that lesson in the context of the current conflict in Iraq have been grave."
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. So he's basically HRC without the experience.
:-(
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. yes he wasn't First Lady. :P But also without all the "inside the beltway" ties.
:evilgrin:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. That's not what I'm reading.
Seems like he's got status quo ties up the whazoo. At least he is talking like a status quo politician. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

As far as HRC's experience, I'm thinking that she is in her second Senate term in addition to all the legwork she did for Bill Clinton.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. He's also the same as Edwards. THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING about Iran. I am sick
of DU'ers posting this and that åbout Candidate X when candidates Y and Z say the same damn thing, hold the same positions with only the barest of differences.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Not Richardson.
Of course the media will not select him.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. What has happened to us? Some of this is scary. Please run, Al.
You are the only true statesman in the whole country, it seems. We, the people, need you.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Do you think Al Gore doesn't support a strong military?
He proposed more than twice the military funding Chimpy proposed in 2000. I don't think Gore -- or any other serious presidential possibility -- would disagree with the need for military strength.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. I doubt Gore would find much to argue against
in Obama's article. I too hope he will run.
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. $10 says Gore would say the same thing
there is not a serious Presidential candidate who would declare "at no time will I unilaterally use the armed forces".

Trying to get them to say it is just a typical lazy, baiting, question from a stenographer that calls him or herself a journalist.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. Yes, what are we Dems thinking? Like we need a strong military...
:sarcasm:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
72. The question isn't whether or not we need a "strong" military--
--but spelling out exactly what it is that we want the military to be strong enough to do. If Obama means "strong enough to continue smashing the imperial boot into the rest of the world's face" then screw him. If he means "strong enough to defend our borders and our people", that's an entirely different matter.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. I don't see anything Obama said as being scary
just the bullshit mischaracterization by Swanson is scary.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. "Vital interests"
are greed and power to many Americans.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. We have no say on this.
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 11:20 AM by Deep13
If someone is not already loaded and a media darling, he has no chance during the super-duper mega-huge primary day. The media does not want a real reformer so all the attention and, therefore, all the fundraising goes to Barallary Clinbama. No one else has a chance.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Well at least your right on that point.
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Hillary wants to keep our Troops over in Iraq.
More will be killed.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Excuse me I thought this thread was about Obama.
Seems like no matter where you post you bring up Hillary. Is that because there is nothing else you understand?
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Misinformation
You post seems to be nothing more than misinformation. Since Clinton has gotten into this campaign she has said that if she were elected she would remove the troops from Iraq. On the other hand Obama seem to be going back and forth defending on what type of audience he is speaking to. In the article cited above Obama seem to say that he is not for an immediate end to the Iraq War. In addition, it has been mentioned that in certain speeches he talks about being anti-war and wanting to bring the Iraq war to an end, but then in another speech to another crowd he says something different. I am not a supporter of HRC, but at least she had said that she would take the troops out of Iraq.
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Ethelk2044 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
60. That is not what Hillary said. She states at one point she then
when she is with another group of people she will not. She keeps doing a flip flop.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. He Sounds, Sir, Like A Man Serious About Becoming President
This line will be quite popular with the people at large; it is what they expect of a leader of the country.
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athebea Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. It's called protecting this nation against all enemies foreign or domestic...
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 12:54 PM by athebea
... which happens to be in the job description.

Kerry never recovered from the accusation that he suffered from Henry James Syndrome. A fawning adoration of all things European. An emotional need for European approval and acceptance to which he was willing to subordinate American security interests.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. The job description is protecting the constitution! It is not protecting
the 'Murcan people.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. 'The 'Murcan People', Ma'am, Would Probably Disagree With You
By margins on the order of eighty to twenty....

Nor is there anything in the slightest degree in conflict with the Constitution in any portion of this statement of Sen. Obama's.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #55
73. Well, who are the "American people"?
The elite who want to use the military to make the rest of the world safe for $2/day labor? Or might it conceivably be the rest of us poor saps who just live here? The interests of the latter are absolutely opposed to the interests of the former.
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athebea Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
69. For your information...
... the job description is to uphold the Constitution and protect this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Pay attention at the next inauguration.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm waiting for the folks to show up and rationalize this... you know those folks, right?
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 11:34 AM by wyldwolf
The ones who would be screaming "neocon!" and saying "WTF? WTF?" if this were about Hillary.
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
36. Take A Look At This
I think you should look at the post I have linked at the bottom of this post. It contains a post and replies about Lieberman's statement that "we" should be prepared to use aggressive force against Iran. It is interesting that people in that post state that Lieberman is the puppet of Bush, Cheney, and Rove, but seem to have no problem with Obama say essentially the same thing. So I guess the question should be asked why is Lieberman a puppet, but not Obama. I will say that maybe the people in that post are completely different from the people in this current post. So that could mean the people in this post have not contradicted themselves by saying Lieberman is bad, but Obama is good.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=34155&mesg_id=34155
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
70. I don't see how they are the same thing at all
Lieberman is saying that we should attack Iran right now. Obama is saying that attacking Iran is on the table far down the line after we've exhausted all diplomatic avenues and they become a genuine threat to us.

I'm extremely confident that diplomacy if tried with Iran will work. Apparently you don't share that confidence.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. There's absolutely no need to "rationalize" anything. Obama offers a strong statement of leadership
such as we should expect from one who wants to be President.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. I have no objection to this
"I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened."

Attacked or imminently threatened being the operative words. We were neither attacked nor imminently threatened by Saddam Hussein.

The article is excellent.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. exactly. I want my president to not only say that, but have the courage to follow through
It will, however, sink Obama in the netroots. In fact, it's already started:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/13/223057/676
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I stopped reading when I got to the part about Mark Warner being "progressive."
But I didn't realize this was such a point of contention.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I think the writer was on Warner's payroll at one point
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Far Beyond That
Obama goes far beyond that. I also have not problem with a potential leader saying he would use the military to protect the American people. However, I do have a problem when that potential leader begins to say our military should be used for instances in which the American security is not in jeopardy. In the last paragraph Obama states that he think the American military should be used for more than just self-defense purposes. In addition, in a previous paragraph he states that the option of attacking Iran and North Korea should be left on the table.

As someone else who posted on this topic said earlier if this had been HRC or even Joe Liberman people would be writing about how we need to kick them out of our party. I do not think Al Gore would support much of what Obama is saying. Yes he may have wanted a bigger military, but he seems to have consistently come out against attacking Iran and North Korea. In addition, it seems that Gore does not support the idea of using the U.S. military for purposes other than self-defense.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. That's not my understanding of Gore
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 01:06 PM by WesDem
He would support these things beyond self-defense, I believe:

We must also consider using military force in circumstances beyond self-defense in order to provide for the common security that underpins global stability -- to support friends, participate in stability and reconstruction operations, or confront mass atrocities.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. No shit. Obama offers here a wholly reasonable (yet realistic) vision of national security.
This passage is deft...and inspiring ---

Finally, to renew American leadership in the world, I will strengthen our common security by investing in our common humanity. Our global engagement cannot be defined by what we are against; it must be guided by a clear sense of what we stand for. We have a significant stake in ensuring that those who live in fear and want today can live with dignity and opportunity tomorrow.

People around the world have heard a great deal of late about freedom on the march. Tragically, many have come to associate this with war, torture, and forcibly imposed regime change. To build a better, freer world, we must first behave in ways that reflect the decency and aspirations of the American people. This means ending the practices of shipping away prisoners in the dead of night to be tortured in far-off countries, of detaining thousands without charge or trial, of maintaining a network of secret prisons to jail people beyond the reach of the law.

Citizens everywhere should be able to choose their leaders in climates free of fear. America must commit to strengthening the pillars of a just society. We can help build accountable institutions that deliver services and opportunity: strong legislatures, independent judiciaries, honest police forces, free presses, vibrant civil societies. In countries wracked by poverty and conflict, citizens long to enjoy freedom from want. And since extremely poor societies and weak states provide optimal breeding grounds for disease, terrorism, and conflict, the United States has a direct national security interest in dramatically reducing global poverty and joining with our allies in sharing more of our riches to help those most in need. We need to invest in building capable, democratic states that can establish healthy and educated communities, develop markets, and generate wealth. Such states would also have greater institutional capacities to fight terrorism, halt the spread of deadly weapons, and build health-care infrastructures to prevent, detect, and treat deadly diseases such as HIV/AIDS, malaria, and avian flu.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070701faessay86401/barack-obama/renewing-american-leadership.html?mode=print
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
54. Agreed (nt)
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
61. Agreed
I would expect the same of anyone running for President to say that. :shrug:

It's ridiculously for someone running to say "I'll never ever ever use for against X country." What if country X attacks us?
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BringBigDogBack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
65. have to agree wes
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. Obama Just Failed Constitution 101, UN Conventions 101
what will he approve of next? Torture?
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Kingstree Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. How are you going to criticize him. He has a Law Degree Do You?
Maybe you need to go to school to know what Law is all about.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
68. "He has a Law Degree Do You?"
So does Clarence Thomas.

As American citizens, we have a responsibility to know and understand the Constitution, regardless of whether or not we have law degrees.
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athebea Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. The American people will never elect a president...
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 01:37 PM by athebea
... who needs the approval of a committee of foreigners to make security decisions that are his and his alone.

It is the American president who took the oath to protect this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic, not the Secretary General of the UN.

In a world or armed nation states international law is a pipedream.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. Really? Obama was a professor of Constitutional Law. NT
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think you should go on his site and read his issues page.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. These are quotes from his artlcle.
Does he say something different on his site's issues page? If so, please link - thanks.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. IMO, it's up to us, the voting public, to become aware of Obama's position outside of an article.
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 12:10 PM by ShortnFiery
Why do Obama's supporters always have to counter "well honed" attacks against their candidate?

It seems that the "half truths" are showing up early for the 2008 primary season. :shrug:

But yes sparky, I get your point. :hi:
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm seriously confused.
I'm not attacking him. I'm reading here what Obama himself wrote, and I don't have any problem with it. What half-truths? :shrug:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Yes, I was making a "generalized" statment. I get your point sparkly.
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 12:13 PM by ShortnFiery
I'm venting, in general, in that it seems that the "attack machines" (whatever side) are coming out fast and furious.

Not pointing at you - yes, that is exactly what Obama says but we need the entire context is my GREATER meaning.

I'm sorry to lump you in. :hi:
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. No problem.
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 12:14 PM by Sparkly
Just don't forget the "L" in Sparkly! lol :hi:

Edit: Thanks! :rofl:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Understood dear Sparkly!
You and AK (Atomic Kitten) are truly gracious GEMS in my, not so humble, opinion. :hi:
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StudentsMustUniteNow Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. But but but but...he voted against the Iraq War Resolution!!!
Oh wait he didn't?

butbutbutbut he SPOKE OUT against it!
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
71. Yes, and and he spoke out against it quite publicly, too. NT
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. Do Not Like It
I do not like the last paragraph. I was not a supporters of Gulf War I. In addition, I am totally against using the military for any reason other than self-defense. Furthermore, I contend attacking Iran and North Korea should be compeletely taken off the table. Obama does not seem to be coming up with very good ideas on the foreign policy front.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. Gore was a supporter of Gulf War I
And if he has ever said force would be off the table rather than force would be a last resort, it would surprise me very much. But continuing from above, can you please cite where Obama advocates attacking Iran and North Korea? I didn't read anything he said that way.
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jmp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
28. "Vital interests"
I would love to see every candidate spell out exactly what s/he perceives to be the "vital interests" of this country.

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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
42. It looks to me like Obama has just shed his sheep's clothing, ...
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 01:37 PM by CRH
after he has danced around and denied affiliation with the DLC and PPI, he has shamelessly immersed himself in their foreign policy ideology of proactive and preemptive use of military force in pursuit of our economy's "vital interest". A vital interest that can be creatively constructed and showcased by our marauding mass media, to be just about anything that supports our corporate economy or excessive national lifestyle.

Then to roll out George H. W. Bush as an example of unified global leadership, in a baited war from the past.

Join the marauders Obama, and tip toe around the DLC/PPI presence, but please do not try any longer to disguise the same world view as anything different than the status quo wolf in sheep's clothing, America first and foremost, one way or another, foreign policy.

Flame on, but I can't answer until tomorrow.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
58. It looks like someone did a hackjob ugly attack on Obama
and the author needs to come out and say its part of the effort to support Kucinich.
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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
79. The author in the past has supported Kucinich,

to the tune of several thousand dollars in donations, and many hours of free promotion.

As far as the hack job, it is nothing more than a fair appraisal of his meandering around politically charged issues with his finger in the wind, then finally stating he is Pepsi instead of Coke.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Fair?
Obama says he wants to protect Americans from imminent threat and Swanson is doing his best to make him sound like George Bush. Its a lot of bullshit. That's the only tactic the Kucitizens have: make everyone else sound conservative whether its true or not. Can't Swanson promote his own candidate without twisting Obama's position, as they did with their ridiculous accusations about Iran?
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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Can't speak for Swanson, or Kucitizens, but have read the entire post and link and thread, ...
Edited on Fri Jun-15-07 01:03 PM by CRH
and what Obama is saying is a bigger military that will be used in defensive and humanitarian endeavors, and ... with perceived preemption of threats to 'vital interests'. With either of the first two conditions, I know of few who would argue, and can't imagine we would need to act unilaterally. It is the following that enters the New Democrat display of openly advocating the use of unilateral military force as a solution to perceived non military threats.

"I will not hesitate to use force, unilaterally if necessary, to protect the American people or our vital interests whenever we are attacked or imminently threatened."

What he is stating is no different to the PPI foreign policy document Progressive Internationalism, ... and I can't find a significant difference to the Clinton approach, what am I missing?

I do not think waving a peace sign will cure all evil, but having a foreign policy developed on 'fair' trade, human rights, non intervention into sovereign nation's politics and culture, and collective global arbitration will be more productive than unilateral gun boat diplomacy. If we must act unilaterally, we need to first ask ourselves, why?

Edit: Added a word
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
43. We need a President who gives up like a chicken when attacked and waves a peace sign
OK. Just say that the US was REALLY attacked by someone...China...Russia...whoever...

What do we do?

Run like little school girls into the woods? Say that we must have deserved it and just let the place get run over by people who would want to KILL you and your loved ones?

Or more realistically, should a candidate, when asked if our vital interests were attacked (like oil in the Persian Gulf or steel not being allowed into our country by China, for example), just say that we should bend over and take it in the arse?

What do people want? A isolationistic pacifist that doesn't want to defend himself or his countrypersons?

Obama clearly would be different than Bush or anyone else when it came to military strategy...he called it spot on in 2002 when saying that the Iraq War was a dumb war. He could have played the cards Clinton or Edwards did, but he was smart enough to read the cards.

Knuckleheaded half-truthers would rather say that Obama "would attack preemptively" or attack Iran because he wouldn't take that card off the table. Simpletons agree...and all I can do is yawn at their myopic shallow torpor.





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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. The last country that attacked us was Japan, in 1941
Don't you think it's a little farfetched to think that any country in the world is capable of that? China, maybe--but then who would they sell their cheap crap to?
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
45. No American overseas who is not a paying tourist or a diplomat.
Not now, not ever again.
We've been straight into the shitter since 1812.

To paraphrase Bismark, the whole of the mideast and Africa is not worth the blood of one American corporal.
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Messrs. Hitler and Stalin thank you
Your willingness to turn a blind eye to murderous tyrants warms the cockles of their hearts
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. None of my or anyone else's business
what happens inside the borders of another sovereign state.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. First, we cannot afford to be the policemen of the world...
In addition, all it seems to do is expose us to more danger, or do people so soon forget the 9/11? In addition, during WWII, WE WERE ATTACKED FIRST, by Japan, we declared war on them the next day, then the day after that Hitler declared war on us! I swear, I really hate it when people forget history. We didn't start that war, we helped end it, and people shouldn't forget that.
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
62. And did we not provoke Japan?
at the behest of the 'China Lobby'?
We had a lot of vested interests from our religio-economic sector and those nasty Japanese, how DARE Asians try to establish an empire - that is the prerogative of AMericans and Englishmen!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Well, our colonial possession of the Phillipines was a major factor...
Otherwise we would have just ignored them until they attacked Hawaii, however, the point is that we didn't preemptively attack Japan for any perceived threat, even if, ultimately, it proved true. We sanctioned them, which contributed to their attack on Pearl Harbor, and there were unofficial volunteers fighting in China. The point is that the United States, outside of Roosevelt's personal opinion, didn't fight Germany or Japan for any altruistic reason, half the time they didn't believe the Holocaust was happening, and most Americans didn't care about the Jews or Chinese.

The United States has been acting like an Empire practically since inception, in fact, if you add it up, we have been at war with one group or nation, or another, for more years than we have been at peace. We need a change, we simply can't afford it anymore.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. Huh?
I think we're way better off now than in 1811. How about looking at a map?
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
83. So you support imperialism and colonialism?
So we have a right to go in and intervene in places like the Philippines? Latin America? "Make the world safe for democracy"?. Sure, what's killing off a few hundred thousand people minding their own business if it makes our borders bigger, eh? Gotta keep Halliburton and Blackwater in the green.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
48. Kick. Critically important we know who we are getting - all candidates. (n/t)
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
51. I'm not sure this author knows what "unilateral" means.

What is wrong with defending yourself if attacked (the premise Obama uses in the sentence where he uses "unilateral" which means "alone" not "preemptive" which I suspect he is confusing this with)?

As to using the military aside from self defense, I would like to point out that sending our military in to stop the genocide in Darfur would not be an act of self defense. Kosovo was not self defense. And Rawanda would not have been self defense.


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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
53. My question is, what are our vital interests?
Too often, in the past, the United States hurried to war when PRIVATE interests were threatened, not public interests. I do not wish for the United States to go to war, yet again, for Exxon-Mobile, Halliburton, or some other U.S. based company.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
56. The idiotic Kucinich smears continue.
I'm really getting tired of the Kucinich krew twisting the words of other candidates and making exaggerated arguments to make every candidate look more conservative than the One True Candidate Kucinich.

All Obama says is that he'll protect Americans if we're "imminently threatened." He also talks about using force for mass atrocities, which I'm guessing means a situation like Darfur.

So I guess Swanson (and his buddy Kucinich) would do nothing if Americans are facing an imminent threat to our safety? He supports no military action to stop genocide? That's not only unelectable, its fucking moronic.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
59. Swanson was a Kucinich staffer in '04
Is he still working for Dennis? He should have the intellectual honesty to tell us that this is an attack to bash a candidate rather than an objective critique.
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Mark Twain Girl Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
63. Ugh. What are our vital interests, exactly, anyway? And why do we need to devote more to the
black hole of our military-industrial-infotainment complex?

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draft_mario_cuomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
67. "On the occupation of Iraq, he does not favor completely ending it"
Enough said...
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
74. You can't seriously expect Obama to "lead the way toward disarmament"
Your heart may be in the right place, but your criticism of Obama in this piece really doesn't seem to be grounded with respect to the big picture.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
76. "Vital interests" = corporate interests
The interests of the American people never enter into the equation when our government, regardless of Administration, speaks about our "vital interests."

The US has two political parties that represent the interests of the capitalist class. The history of American intervention overseas is one of supporting oligarchs and Wall Street.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Faux-theocratical oligarchs...
Unfortunately, these are the times we live in.







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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
77. Mr. Swanson, what would Kucinich do? Have us all take it in the arse?
Do you think America shouldn't have "vital interests"? Perhaps you have a magic wand to make it Utopia by tomorrow at noon...

Being that you've been shilling Kucinich, what would he do if we were attacked? Hand out soy ink brochures from the Department of Peace? This whole hogwash wreaks of a combination of myopic teenage torpor with a little Neville Chamberlainism on the side...






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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Our vital interests are fair trade, protecting the environment, and
individual rights. Our 'vital interests' have nothing to do with the form of another government, how it treats it's citizens (or, indeed anyone other than American citizens) or what it choses to do, or not do, with the resources withing its borders.
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