If you think that Hillary has "too much baggage" or is otherwise "unelectable"...

[assclown_bush]

you may well have drunk the kool-aid. The right wing blowhards hate Hillary, true, but they hate her because she is a threat to them. I keep reading all sorts of posts of how we cannot have Hillary win the nomination, but I have news for those people, Hillary is well on the road to winning the nomination. She is proving herself to be formidable. She looks presidential and she is getting her message across. I, personally have a few reservations with Hillary but I would vote for her in a pinch. I wish she were more liberal, and I wish she had not voted in support of the war, but she did. I can deal with it and I refuse to allow the Republicans to dictate on whom the nominee should be for the Democratic Party.
Some DUer's seem to think that because her nomination would rile up the right that we should not support Hillary. Hillary deserves our support because she has shown that she can win elective office and has been able to weather all that has been thrown at her with a modicum of dignity. The old stories that the right wingers fling at her are, by now, OLD STORIES! The people that believe the Clinton's to be guilty of "murder" were never going to vote for her or him. Those people won't be voting for Obama or Edwards or any other Democrat either, so why let them dictate the nominee.
The poor souls who seem to fear Hillary as the nominee are misguided and at least some of them appear to be quite disingenuous. They have bought into the right wing spin and they refuse to admit that it has affected them. They appear to believe that we Democrats need to elect a candidate that is acceptable to the Republicans.
I, for one, am not delegating that privilege to the very people who have put America on the wrong course.

[Peregrine Took]

1. I'll never vote for a DLC'r - never! Rethug lite?? No thanks.

[assclown_bush]

9. So, are you saying that you will not vote come election day....

if Hillary is the nominee? Does your dislike of "Rethug lite" (whatever that means" Hillary mean that you would prefer to had the election to someone like Mitt?

I don't believe some of you people!

[Discord]

79. I will likely abstain from voting if she wins the nomination...

... and I know I'm not alone. If she wins the nomination, your handing the Republicans the white house for 4 more years.

[assclown_bush]

95. Was Bill Clinton a republican while he was president?

You think Hillary is a republican? What is wrong with people these days?:banghead:

[Discord]

117. I don't think SHE is a Repuke...

She will never win. Not only will her nomination turn off millions of moderate and liberal voters who simply do not trust her, her appeasment and enabling of Republican agendas, but she is beholden to the corporate chokehold on this country, its people, its economy, and its government.

Not only that, you would see the worst media campaign against a presidential candidate. You think the swiftboaters were bad... you aint seen nothing. I would almost guarantee that you would see the largest Repuke voter turnout in history.

A vote for Hillary in the primaries, is a vote for a Republican winning the White House.

You and other HRC supporters have been warned, in this thread and others, by droves of Democrats and Liberals here on DU. The political activists of the Democratic party, that support for Hillary will doom this country to 4 or more years of Republican control of the WhiteHouse.

[assclown_bush]

123. "Warned"? Hillary Clinton supporters are being "WARNED" by DU'ers???

The only people who will doom this country are the one's who FAIL to vote.

[Discord]

127. Yes, your being warned that supporting a candidate...

...that has no chance of winning the general election will doom this country.

HRC is a sell out. An old school, politics as usual DLC'er who will not change the path we're on. I don't see her in much different light than I see most of the Repugs running. Just more of the same, politics as usual, in Washington.

We are in CRISIS! Our government, economy, and social stability is in severe decline, and headed towards dire consequense.

This country is in a very critical situation, and this next election is likely the most important election we might ever be faced with. It's time to make a choice, and take a stand. We NEED major and sweeping change in this country desperately, and HRC simply put... does not represent change.

Theres a huge mountain of corruption ahead of us to climb. Political corruption and apathy towards the general public has infected both parties. The ONLY ones who can stop them is US! By removing every appeasing and enabling, lobbyist loving, corporate sponsoring politician from office. By ONLY supporting candidate who represent that average American. That defends the Constitution. That will vow and honor a pledge to go to the ends of the earth to defend our liberties and freedoms. One who will stand up to the monolith of lies and corruption that has taken over our government. We need a leader who will not follow the money and the polls to political power just to betray us once the votes are cast.

I WILL NOT support HRC. Not now. Not ever.

[assclown_bush]

130. Your "warning" has been duly noted...

:rofl:

[Discord]

135. I figured you didn't have a reply.

Nor could you refute that the assesment is accurate.

Blow it off, but when it happens, I'll be the first one to send you a thank you card for throwing away the country in the midst of its most dire time in history. Glad you find it so amusing and take it so lightly.

[assclown_bush]

140. I don't take cyber-Warnings from ANYONE to heart...

Why would I? And why should I respond seriously to anyone who is so blinded by hatred that they cannot see straight? You will do what you think is right and we who support Hillary for president will follow our own hearts. Let the chips fall where they may. But, I, would NEVER "warn" you...I had assumed we were all fighting for the same thing: getting a Democrat in the White House. I guess I was wrong.

[Discord]

153. putting words into my mouth. I don't "hate" Hillary.

I just will not support her policies. Shes a sell out. She has a weak showing in polls against Repukes, at the same time, while lacking support by numbers, she has one of the largest campaign fundraising totals. Shes a corporatist, whos right now recieving gobs of cash from her corporate sponsors. She has fled the left to become a right-moderate appeaser, although she will never get thier vote no matter how much she panders to thier intrests. She would sell out our party just as quickly to sate her lobbyists and sponsors. More of the same? No thanks.

[Alexander]

225. Ah yes...anyone who isn't worshipping St. Hillary must "hate" her.

Seriously, are you guys paid operatives, or just plain crazy? :eyes:

[assclown_bush]

228. "St. Hillary"??? And you accuse Hillary supporters of being "crazy"???

Are you "seeing" things? Have you lost lucidity? You are obviously prone to exaggerations~and god knows what other forms of dementia you might be exhibiting? I shudder to guess.

[assclown_bush]

248. Actually, your writing style forces...

me to decipher your meaning. I suggest a writing course or at the very least you should try going back to school and enroll in an English grammar class.

[bpeale]

139. i will not support her either, no matter what

[assclown_bush]

142. And, whom, pray tell, do YOU support?

Or have you given it any thought?

[bpeale]

152. i am an edwards supporter

i have even given money to his campaign & will continue to do so

[assclown_bush]

159. That's WONDERFUL!!!

I am sure he can use all the support you have to give.

[bpeale]

179. are you being facetious? or serious?

[Scout]

164. no, YOU will be handing over the white house

along with others of your ilk who would rather see a Republican win than vote for Hillary.

Stupid, selfish and short-sighted in my opinion.

[Discord]

194. Unlike Hillary, my vote is not for sale. n/t

[roguevalley]

88. I despise this argument. If you don't go along for any reason no

matter how good, you 'drank the koolaid". What crap. Its a long haul between now and the election. I can sort out who I support and who I don't. And don't throw that so you won't vote on election day crap either. I haven't missed an election in forty years. Who I vote for and why is NOBODY'S BUSINESS but my own.

[bpeale]

136. my dislike of HRC is so great that i just can't hold my nose & vote for her

she is no bill clinton. much as i like bill clinton, i dislike his wife more than i can say.

[NaturalHigh]

249. No matter who gets the nomination, I will vote.

It just won't be for Hillary Clinton.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

76. LOL. Welcome to DU. Your mission has been fulfilled!

:hi: MKJ

[ellisonz]

251. Welcome to the 2008 DU Primary Wars!

:toast: :party:

[Ethelk2044]

2. She is not a threat to anyone. I just don't like a person talking out of

both sides of their mouth.

[assclown_bush]

20. No one likes people who "talk out of both sides of their mouths"...

but they are politicians. Sooner or later, it is inevitable. Unless you have someone like Jimmy Carter who was (and is) a wonderful humanitarian but was an ineffectual leader.

[Cleita]

3. Actually you are wrong. The RNC wants Hillary to be the

Democratic candidate. They know they are going to lose so they are happy to get a Democrat in the White House who is a corporatist like them that they still can do business with. It makes me wonder who actually has drunk the Kool-Aid.

[assclown_bush]

5. Did the RNC write and tell you all this?

Did they say that "Hillary is a corporatist" and they want her to be in the White House?

I am sorry, but what color is the sky in your world?

[Cleita]

8. Hillary is a corporatist who is receiving most of her campaign

money from the same corporations who are supporting the main Republican candidates. Go to Open Secrets and look for yourself. http://www.opensecrets.org. Follow the money. There are articles written you can google that exhalt Hillary's ability to be very comfortable in the corporate world. They like her. The RNC likes business and wealthy corporations. Connect the dots. It doesn't take rocket science.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

16. Oh the communist rabble upsets you? I wouldn't say that too

loud around here. There are some of us who are rather pinko and don't feel our political views are any less valid than your centrist ones.

[assclown_bush]

19. Upset me? I don't give a rat's *ss if you are pinko or WHATEVER...

but, I would assume that you are realistic enough to know that America is not going to throw out all the corporations and join Hugo Chavez in a "love fest"?

[Cleita]

36. Why not?

If we ever get honest elections, you may be surprised over what the majority of Americans want.

[assclown_bush]

52. And you think YOU know?

I doubt America wants to do away with industry. Why would we? Would you rather we be like Myanmar? Or Cuba? Venezuela? I just don't believe that to be the case. I admit that my view may be skewed, I am a well to do liberal (Beverly Hills born and raised) but with complete belief in the rights of individuals and with a desire to help and the will (and financial wherewithal) to pay more in taxes to help those in need.
I cannot imagine throwing out the baby with the bathwater unless you want a seriously injured baby.

[John Q. Citizen]

78. Bill Clinton already did away with industry when he pushed NAFTA. Where are you

living?

What industry is hiring Americans where you live?

You call McDonalds industry?

[assclown_bush]

92. Beverly Hills is my home.

And the film industry is filled with Americans. Is that news to you? Microsoft and all the other tech businesses do an industry make, as well. As far as I know they hire Americans. And yes, McDonalds is industry. What do you think it is?

So now, Bill Clinton did away with industry? What else do you accuse him of?

[John Q. Citizen]

118. How many millions are employed by the film industry? Last I heard, Microsoft

was hiring Indians as fast as possible. In fact last I heard, lots of Americans formerly in the computer industry were looking for work.

Also, last I heard, auto, steel, textiles, in fact manufacturing of all kinds had been outsourced and all but disappeared along with the historically good wages those manufacturing jobs paid. In their place were lower paying service jobs.

I guess we know who is pro American industry and who is pro outsourcing our jobs to other countries.

Industry indeed. That's a good one. I don't think you will be able to sell it though.

[assclown_bush]

124. What are you proposing? Forcing companies to remain in the U.S.?

Do you want to make it illegal for companies to out-source? What is wrong with giving people in India jobs? Is that now, "un-American"?

[Cleita]

156. Everything is wrong with outsourcing our jobs and making our

people unemployed and maybe even homeless, but someone with a trust fund like you never has to worry about whether they will be able to make the mortgage payment and property taxes if they lose their job.

[CTLawGuy]

214. no wonder you support Hillary

if that is your attitude toward outsourcing.

[ronnykmarshall]

181. Oh so THAT explains it!!

Yer one of them Hollyweird LIEberals!! And a homo to boot!

:evilgrin: :sarcasm:

:hi: What's up neighbor? I'm in WeHo m'self.

If you ever see a black Honda Civic hatchback w/ a Hillary sticker ...... that's me!

[assclown_bush]

198. Hello ronnyk....

I'll keep my eye out for your black Honda...look for me, I am in a bright yellow Hummer and can be found at either Equinox or the Abbey.


:hi:

[Apollo11]

210. THE OP DRIVES A FREAKIN' HUMMER !!??

I have a new bumper sticker for you:

HUMMER DRIVERS FOR HILLARY
HONK IF YOU HATE THE PLANET!

:kick:

[Cleita]

109. There are plenty of good jobs in Beverly Hills for Limo drivers,

maids, nannies, gardners, pool services. Oh yes there are lawyers, bankers, accountants and stock brokers in the slummy areas.

:rofl:

[assclown_bush]

125. There are also jobs for designers, landscapers, people in the hospitality trades

retail sales, banking, and everything else that makes a city run. All I read from your post is envy.

[Cleita]

132. Oh puleeze. When we first moved to LA county my parents

settled in Beverly Hills. Mommy dearest loved shopping. I moved to Santa Monica where the real people live. The jobs that actually contribute to the world are in the universities in Westwood and elsewhere, not Beverly Hills where all the businesses that have sprung up are geared to catering to the wealthy and their trust fund spawn.

[assclown_bush]

143. So the "real people" reside in Santa Monica?

And there are NO wealthy people who need any catering to there?

:rofl:

Talk about cliche!

[Cleita]

151. When I moved there Santa Monica was a working class town

employed mostly by the aircraft industry. There is nothing more real than a person who has to go to work every morning because they have to. My trust fund peer group in Beverly Hills turned me off. I had to go to high school with them, but I didn't have to live around them after that if I chose not to.

[assclown_bush]

173. NEWS ALERT FOR CLEITA!!!

Santa Monica California is NO longer a working class town. It is one of the most expensive areas in the West-side. I, personally, prefer Beverly Hills (the city AND north of Sunset~~~yet never ever in the Post Office). But Santa Monica does have its charms.

[Cleita]

193. I know it really got fucked up in the eighties when most of us

voted in rent control so we could still afford to live in what we considered our home town. Now it's Beverly Hills all over again. :cry: Well, DH and I left in the early nineties. We didn't like what it had become. We have never gone back. I hope the monied elite who are the only ones who can afford to live there anymore like what they have done.

[ronnykmarshall]

182. Oh dear .....

This gonna get good!

[Cleita]

98. What do you know about Venezuela? No one is trying to do

away with industry and commerce there. Au contrar the Chavez revolution is all about creating a large middle class through farming and industry. Sheesh read up on stuff before you shoot your mouth off or better yet with your money go there and find out first hand.

As for Cuba, when Castro overthrew the oligarchy there he found himself in a vise between two super powers Russia and the USA, one moving in to exploit him whom he needed money from and the other, who should have tried to be a good neighbor, put crushing embargoes on his country instead. Imagine if this country hadn't had it's head up it's ass about commies back then and negotiated with Castro instead, the whole history of the Caribbean and Russian involvement there would have been very different.

Oh, I was born in South America btw of an American expat dad, so I don't have the brainwashed version of Latin American history that most Americans have. I actually know what really happened and who the bad guys have consistently been there and unfortunately it's been us.

[assclown_bush]

103. Having traveled (and lived) in South America...

I speak from experience. Venezuela used to be a thriving and beautiful country. Caracas was once one of the great resorts of Latin America, but now it is a dangerous and squalid place. I wouldn't venture there, but I am in fact leaving for BsAs and Chile for the season. I am not one of the brain~washed masses, but I would suggest to you that in many cases, Americans (or Norte~Americanos as Argentinians refer to us) are not the only culprits in the geo-political problems of that part of the world. Pinochet was not born in New York and neither was Peron.

[Cleita]

107. Well you need to get out of the country clubs and see how the

poor live when you travel there. Chile was the country I was born in and Pinnochet was installed as dictator after the Nixon administration engineered a coup to assassinate a legitimately elected President in a country that had a strong Democratic tradition because he was :wow: a commie. It brought in forty years of a brutal dictatorship in a country that had known nothing of the sort. I hope the old shit burns in Hell. Socialism in SA is a symptom of things that need to change because the greedy upper classes are too stupid to realize that they have to throw a few bones to the proletariat.

In Chile it was no different. The American companies and British sucked the resources dry. I know, my father's company was part of it. In Allende the poor working classes saw a chance to change that and Pinnochet with the aid of our country dashed their dreams for forty years. Chavez is also an legitimately elected President. If he screws up the people will elect him out, but no one has any business trying to assassinate him or overthrow him because they don't like him.

[assclown_bush]

129. "country clubs"??? How cliche!

I've been through Chile and it is a wonderful and thriving modern country. The dictatorship of Pinochet was indeed brutal and it is wonderful that the bastard is finally dead. Saying that, however, it was wrong for the poor of Chile to rob the middle class of their homes and businesses under the guise of Communism. It is always wrong to go break into your neighbor's home and attempt to "steal" it because they have two homes and you have but one (or none). Stealing is wrong and the poor in Chile were encouraged to steal by the well-intentioned (but sadly misled) marxist Salvador Allende. The country was in economic chaos, and although the U.S. did have it's hand in making sure that the Chilean experiment with Communism would fail, failure was inevitable. You cannot nationalize foreign investment and expect new investment into your country.

I am happy that Chile has Bachelet as a president. I believe that she will serve her country well.

Don't be so rash at hurling your childish accusations about "country clubs". Not all Americans are asked to be members of "country clubs". I am one of them.

[Cleita]

141. 'scuze me but you are talking to someone who lived there before

Allende was elected and it was no thriving economy then because it was being sucked dry by foreign interests mostly the USA and Britain. The fundos of the south were run like medieval fiefs. When the socialist Allende was elected, he threw those guys out and put the ranches in the hands of the people like Chavez is attempting to do now in Venezuela.

That is when Kissinger did his dirty work, killed him and installed Pinnochet. The only thing good Pinnochet did was to lift the high tariffs on foreign goods, another thing that was choking any start of a thriving economy. His economics, based on the neo-con one that is killing our country now, hindered rather than helped any progress. Pinnochet benefitted from the nationalization of the mines and other foreign owned business that was started by Allende the "commie".

The so called middle class you are talking about are your elitist money friends who controlled all the wealth not the middle class who were very poor by our standards so you probably think of them as being the poor. Chile always had a large middle class of merchants, and educated professionals, but they didn't have the standard of living that they have here. All those "middle classes" you are hanging around with are the same elitist who allowed the Americans to exploit the resources while they pocketed the American kick backs in Swiss bank accounts.

[assclown_bush]

144. "'scuze me"???

I bought an apartment in Santiago, I loved the country so much.


You, however, make me laugh.

[Cleita]

154. "You bought an apartment in Santiago".

How many natives can afford to do that? Tell me, how many maids do you have? My mother had three, a small number by her friends' standards. You are the one that makes me laugh. :rofl: I agree with you there is a lot to love about Chile, even all of South America but that doesn't make the problems go away and your refusal to accept the reality of the situations while apologizing for the upper classes who keep the problems from a solution because of their own self interest doesn't help. Labeling people as commies who want to bring change really doesn't help. It almost makes you sound like those people at that other website we can't mention.

[assclown_bush]

163. "How many maids do you have"???

:rofl:

Your post really does not merit a response. I just did it for sh*ts and g*ggles.

[Cleita]

166. Glad to amuse you. I take your answer as yes, I have a couple

of maids, since you didn't answer.

[assclown_bush]

175. I don't "have" a maid. People are not possesions.

I employ people and I pay them well. There is no crime in that. Is there?

[Cleita]

195. You employ people and you pay them. In Chile we called them

"empleadas" or employees. It sounded nicer than maids.
:rofl:

[assclown_bush]

199. Now they are called "nana" which does have a sweet sound to it...

I prefer it to calling them "sirvienta", "servidumbre" or "ingeniera domestica" which are either denigrating or (in the latter case) ridiculous.

[ronnykmarshall]

183. mmmmmmm chili!!!

I just had some for lunch.

[Cleita]

108. Dupe

Delete

[John Q. Citizen]

119. Venezuela is the second fastest growing economy in the world today. Oh no!

How horrible for the people of Venezuela!

[assclown_bush]

126. Chile has the fastest growing economy of ANY Latin-American country.

Source: http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-fastest-growing-economies-map.html



What is your source for the statement that Venezuela is the "second" fastest growing economy of the world?

[Cleita]

133. And that's no thanks to Pinnochet and his neo-con economists,

the "Chicago boys". Thank Allende for that who kicked out all the foreign interests sucking it dry.

[assclown_bush]

138. You fail to accept the fact that Chile has been a Democracy since 1817

The electorate put into power people who may have allowed to exploitation of it's countries resources. America is NOT the only culprit. The Chilean people need to accept some responsibility for their own actions. It is not a country of mindless children.

[Cleita]

148. Oh wake up and smell the American imperialism. Chile was

no less a victim of a classist society than any other country in SA run by the minority upper class for the benefit of the upper classes. As long as they allowed America and Britain to have their way with the country and took the bribes offered in the guise of foreign aid, nothing changed and the country remained poor at the mercy of its "investors".

My dad worked for one of those companies. I was raised there and went to school there. I know how the scenario operates. I have hopes for Chile, like I do Venezuela and our even poorer neighbor Bolivia, even Argentina, even though I find Argentinians full of themselves. But until America and Americans realize that they have to stop meddling in the affairs of any of those countries, they will continue to be poor and in chaos. If they elect a communist willingly, they have to be left alone to unelect that communist when they get fed up with him or her. If Allende had been left alone, I'm sure he would have been elected out of office if he failed, but Chileans were never allowed that choice and now Venezuelans and Bolivians are facing the same interference. We preach democracy. It's time for us to start practicing it even when we don't like the results.

Now take off your rose colored glasses the next time you travel there and look objectively at what is really going on.

[assclown_bush]

157. I'll be there next Thursday and will be traveling in Chile for 3 months....

I'll also be going to Buenos Aires, another of my favorite places.

I agree with you that the U.S. should have stayed out of the business of Chile. I have no disagreement with you there. I believe the U.S. should not be in Iraq. The U.S. should not meddle into the business of other countries. Nixon, Kissinger and the CIA have blood on their hands for the deaths of Allende and for the senseless killings and atrocities perpetrated by the government the helped to foment. Pinochet was a blight on Chile. But the government of Allende would have most likely failed on its own. That is my opinion.

You should stop believing that anyone who does not agree with you is wearing "rose colored" glasses. It may be as simple as my seeing things from a different perspective. That's all.

[Cleita]

165. Yes, Allende could have failed on it's own and should have been

allowed to do so. In the same way we should let Hugo Chavez either succeed or fail on his own. We shouldn't meddle. I know the upper classes are all in a snit about it because they are going to lose their power and much of their wealth but until they realize that they have an obligation to make sure that the least among them have a chance at a decent life, then it's too bad.

This is a lesson for the ultra wealthy. If you have to step over a homeless person in the street, you have an obligation to help that person, not individually but through our government. If we have the wrong government, then it's our duty to change it. When I lived in Chile, beggar children in rags used to come up to me. I would give them whatever coins I had on my and I was punished for doing so. I was told I couldn't play with them because I would get lice. I was told giving them money and other things would encourage them to grow up to be lazy and just beg for a living.

These are the attitudes that have to change in the world if we are ever to have peace and prosperity for ALL. People who have things, who have businesses and property are not the victims here and no one should be feeling sorry for them when they lose what they had from generations of greed because of a revolution. They should have taken care of the problems that led to that revolution first and maybe then they wouldn't have lost everything.

[assclown_bush]

174. I agree with your post 100% n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

167. My source is the New York Times. Your source says it's information may be wrong

And whether your source is wrong or not, Venezuela has a growth rate nearly double of Chile.


Chávez rides wave of Venezuela's economic growth
By Simon Romero / The New York TimesPublished: December 3, 2006
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/03/news/venez.php

CARACAS: To understand why Hugo Chávez seemed assured of victory in the presidential election on Sunday - strengthening his mandate for what he calls a socialist revolution - consider the vigor here of that most capitalist of institutions: the stock exchange.

Housed in El Rosal, an upscale district with new skyscrapers and hotels, the Caracas stock exchange was the site of frenzied trading last week. Its main index climbed to a record high of 46,741, topping off a 129.2 percent rise this year that has made it one of the best performing markets in the world. On Friday, the index climbed 8 percent for its biggest daily gain in four years.

"For all of Chávez's faults, his government has been extremely pragmatic in economic terms," said José Guerra, a former chief of economic research at Venezuela's central bank.

"State-supported capitalism isn't just surviving under Chávez. It is thriving."

Often lost in the campaigning between Chávez and his challenger, Manuel Rosales, is that Venezuela, with the largest conventional petroleum reserves outside the Middle East, is having one of the most significant oil booms in its history. Economic growth this year is set to pass 10 percent, making Venezuela's the fastest-growing economy in the Americas.

more at link....

[papau]

37. Those corporations give to both sides so as to get "access" - but they give much more to R's

n/t

[Cleita]

102. I understand that but they are decidly picky as to who they

give money to on our side. Go look at Open Secrets and see what they are getting from whom and you will see that the centrist DLC candidates are getting the lion's share of that money, which enables them to accumulate nice war chests and be less dependent on grass roots donations. This isn't good for those of us who can't compete with that kind of money and whose best interests will not be served because they will be in conflict with the interests of the big donors.

[John Q. Citizen]

120. Yes, it's a complete perversion of the idea of a democratic republic. It's much

closer to corporatism, which is to say, fascism, when the state and business interests merge.

[John Q. Citizen]

75. Hillery is pro American Empire. She wouldn't even say that she wouldn't pardon

Scooter Libby.

She's a Democratic Neo-Con, which is why she voted for the Iraq invasion in the first place.

If you want a continuation of the foreign policy of the last 35 years, then go ahead and vote for Hillery.

The sky is blue, unless it's grey, and at sunset it's a lovely shade of pink, purple, and orange.

I know that because I have eyes. I can see perfectly who Hillery listens to, how she votes, and what she says.

Hillery is a belligerent hawk.

I'm for peace. I can't vote for war and I can't vote for Hillary.

Sorry. You go ahead and vote for who you want. Good luck.

[slick8790]

128. The fact is, she IS unelectable.

First off, she causes so much more dissent even among democrats. If we can't get even the majority of our party to like her, or even not dislike her, then what chance do we have with undecideds? And the simple fact is the republican field is weak, weak enough to make conservatives stay home if someone like guiliani or mccain gets the nom. But nominating hillary would just stir up all the old clinton hatred and make them come out to vote against her.

Personally, I don't think she'd be a bad president. She is a DLC-er, but then again, so was Bill. But there's too much at stake in the next election to nominate someone so polarizing and with such high negatives.


*edit* just saw this on rassmussen, i think it makes my point. http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_enjoys_highest_level_of_base_support_for_second_straight_month_33_will_definitely_vote_for_him

47% will vote AGAINST hillary. Pretty tough margin to win with.

[illinoisprogressive]

4. Then I must have drank a pitcher of it. She is a repuke lite. DLC

[SaveElmer]

6. C'mon Illinois...illuminate us as to the specific policy differences...

Between Obama and Hillary...

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

29. You ought to join up with the Obama campaign...

They could use a hack like you...

[William769]

43. I think that person already is.

[William769]

42. Good luck with that SaveElmer.

[ronnykmarshall]

184. You can say that again

La Illi-Prog doesn't respond to the unhip and old.

[assclown_bush]

7. Then enjoy another four years of Republican rule...

because the nomination will most likely be hers. If Democrats choose to sit on their hands come election day, because of sour grapes, then they will hand the election over to the Republicans.

[Cleita]

10. There is no doubt in my mind that the nomination will be hers and

we will hold our noses and vote for her just like we do for Dianne Feinstein another corporate Republican Lite. It doesn't change the fact that her spots are not stripes. At least it will retire the religio-fascists from ruling our country for four years at least.

[Clark2008]

44. Problem is, with Bloomberg in the race, many will NOT hold

their noses and vote for her.

[durrrty libby]

47. Dear god fucking almighty, I can't imagine going to the polls

just to hold my nose and vote

Crap to the nth degree

[Cleita]

99. Well, I have been doing it fifty percent of the time since I was old

enough to vote forty six years ago. You do it to keep the party in power that is most likely to listen to the ordinary person and that would be the Democratic Party up until now even if you don't like the candidate. At least they have to caucus with their party most of the time.

[More Than A Feeling]

12. Same old, same old.

If Hillary fails to motivate Democrats to vote for her in the general election, that will be her fault.

[assclown_bush]

18. To a certain extent you are correct...

if Hillary fails to "motivate" the Democrats then, yes, the fault is hers. As it was Gore's fault not to "motivate" Democrats and as it was Kerry's fault when he ran. For that matter, if a candidate fails to win the Democratic nomination it is only his or her own fault for failing to "motivate". We can never expect any responsibility from the electorate. The electorate is infallible.:sarcasm:

[More Than A Feeling]

21. This is a democracy. You're damn right the electorate is the boss.

Failure to get elected is solely the fault of the candidates, no one else. Failure to be the nominee is the fault of the candidate. It kinda scares me that you think otherwise. It's a little...undemocratic, as is your propagation of the "Hillary is inevitable" meme. Might as well cancel the primaries right? (now THAT's when you use the :sarcasm: tag!)

[assclown_bush]

26. There is no such thing as corrupted votes...

voter suppression etc. Bush won fare and square when Gore ran against him. There was no funny business and corruption going on. Gore was the only one to blame for his loss. No one else.:sarcasm:

[More Than A Feeling]

30. What does corruption and voter suppression have to do with

candidates failing to motivate voters? That is what we are talking about, isn't it?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

80. Ah, IP, your train is never late.

MKJ

[earthlover]

11. Hillary was annointed the front runner years ago by the Republican controlled media

Why? Because they want her to get the nomination.

They are basically lazy sorts. They are going to swift boat whoever is the Dem nominee. They wouldn't have to work very hard to re-kindle well-planted memes about Hillary. That is why they are promoting Hillary as inevitable. That is why she is given a free ride...that is, until she would be nominated.

Of course the right wing hates Hillary. They have from the start. That is why they branded her with a distinct image. It worked. And she responded, ironically, by triangulating everything to boot. Which plays to the meme they will remind us of how she is driven by power and will say anything to get it. Unfair? Of course! will it work? yes.

It is not the Republicans who fear her nomination. It is mainly Dems who fear that she won't win. What do the Reps have to lose? Her nomination is their only chance.

[assclown_bush]

15. "Free ride"? Who is giving Hillary a "Free ride"?

I guess it's all the pundits on Fox news who deride and insult her at every turn.
But I guess you think they give her a "free ride"?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

Fox are worried

[Auntie Bush]

83. Don't forget asshole Tucker who has an anti-Clinton segment on every

single episode for at very least 15 full minutes and sometimes the full hour. No other candidate on either side has someone badmouthing them
continuously.

[assclown_bush]

94. Hillary has never gotten a "free ride" to say that she has is just bizzare. n/t

[More Than A Feeling]

14. I hate the "unelectable" meme, period. n/t

[Alamom]

17. Good post. k&r. eom

[assclown_bush]

24. Thank you!

I was beginning to think that no one here supports Hillary!:hi:

[durrrty libby]

23. There are some ignorant fools getting their kool-aid via IV

Just the way the RNC likes it

[Awsi Dooger]

25. I'm worried about nominating any woman

IMO, it's possibly still too early. No guarantee you win a significantly higher percentage of the female vote but you will lose some support among men. The general election polling already hints at that, when you look at the crosstabs. Plus, last year we lost many tossup House races when the nominee was a woman. I'm not content to ignore that.

If not for her gender, Hillary would be my top choice, and not even close. She is much more impressive than Edwards or Obama, in debates and campaign structure and political instincts, other than the Iraq vote.

At least Hillary is running in the proper year. She would have little chance in a 50/50 environment but with a national tilt our way, and especially in Ohio, she might be able to pull out a squeaker.

[eridani]

113. Being female isn't a problem

Being a pro-NAFTA corporate shill is.

[MarianJack]

27. Y'Know,...

...I remember the same assholes who say that Hillary can't win today saying that Bill Clinton would come in 3rd way back in 1991.

They said that Al Gore would carry 5 states or less in the face of a ** landslide in 1999.

And yet they keep their jobs and are considered "experts".

They have no sense of history, the electorate and are only experts at being wrong.

[SunDrop23]

28. Good post, we need to get behind whoever the nom is full force.

[assclown_bush]

31. Thanks! That is all I am saying...

I will vote for anyone who wins the nomination, and, I will give them my support because we cannot afford 4 more years of republican rule.

[goclark]

34. Yes, behind the nominee all the way

After GW, we have no other option.

And, we need to REALLY win Congress!

[LWolf]

32. What if I just think she'd make a bad president? n/t

[stillcool]

33. I agree with you..

she is coming into her own, and putting on a better show than any candidate I've seen since her husband. She speaks so well off the cuff, it's refreshing. I hate the repetition of lies that come out of her mouth, but have to say..that 'Soprano's' bit, was brilliant...because it has instilled in me the naive hope, that behind the show lies a political force that might be able to restore some sanity to this world.

[assclown_bush]

54. Hillary is not perfect...but hse is indeed "coming into her own". n/t

[nevergiveup]

35. I support Obama

but think yours is a good post. You presented a heart filled argument against those of us who think she is not electable and you did it without trashing any of her opponents. You haven't convinced me but I like your style.

[scarletwoman]

38. Blah, blah, blah... I won't vote for her, period.

She's just more of the same old MIC/corporatist ruling class bullshit. I refuse to play their game anymore.

And, yes, that means I will withhold my vote on election day if she's the nominee. I'll vote downticket on my state & local races, but I'll leave the presidential ballot blank.

sw

[emilyg]

39. Go wash your mouth out wish lye soap lol

[scarletwoman]

40. Why? I didn't use any naughty words, did I?

[William769]

45. I sometimes wonder about people who feel the need to profess this statement.

But then again I know why my puppy craves attention also.

[scarletwoman]

46. Why does ANYONE express an opinion on a political site? Maybe EVERYONE on DU is a puppy!

You, too!

[William769]

48. Expressing an opinion is one thing stating a fact is another.

[scarletwoman]

50. Did I state a "fact" that you want to challenge? Challenge away, then.

[William769]

53. Not challenging anything

You stated "Blah, blah, blah... I won't vote for her, period". Thats a fact not an opinion. Understand now?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

59. LOL!!!!

:spray:

[ShortnFiery]

62. That was no soft-ball but a blatant rabbit-punch personal insult.

:thumbsdown:

[assclown_bush]

67. A female dog is an insult?

To whom? And why?

[William769]

68. See what I mean how the posts add up quickly in a Hillary thread?

I wouldn'y justify anything, the mods around here are pretty smart people.

[assclown_bush]

73. LOL, yes now I do see. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

69. Don't be coy, it's unbecoming of someone with keen insight and a sharp wit.

;)

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

41. If you ever want to find someone here on DU, just look for a Hillary thread!

:rofl:

[assclown_bush]

49. What does that mean?

I find your post cryptic. What do you mean by it, and I am neither being sarcastic nor facetious. I just don't know what you mean.

[William769]

51. I didn't think I was being cryptic.

Look at a non Hillary thread compared to a thread about Hillary. Most of the time it takes awhile to read a thread about Hillary because of the responses. You have the regular posters, the posters that support her, then the supporters that have made it their life goal to spew vitriol about her.

I myself being a Hillary supporter feel the need to respond to the negitive post as a counter balance. The posts add up quickly.

[assclown_bush]

55. I guess I am comparatavely a "newbie" on this site...

and though I love to read the posts, I rarely join in the activity. I just get a little ticked off by all the anti-Hillary stuff being posted on this site I guess. I think people have bought the bile that has been peddled by the repubs hook-line-and-sinker and they just step on my tail sometimes.

[William769]

58. I am such a avid supporter of her's that I have been accused of...

Being part of her capmaign staff, being paid by the campaign staff. They just can't believe that I love this woman and will do everthing humaly possible to see her as our next President of the United States.

[ronnykmarshall]

185. Psst? Pssst?

Bill, did you get your check this week?

I just got mine and along with a DARLING little necklace.

Good ol' Hil. Always so nice to us paid posters.

Wanna go pick out cars this weekend? Hil told me she can get us a HUGE discount (aka FREE) if we just show them "The Card".

[assclown_bush]

234. LOL...

:rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

60. Then freely using "The Bitch" term and tagging it to another member says alot about HRC supporters.

:( Why is it that HRC supporters seemingly never fail to lob personal insults toward the poster who does not like HRC? Remember, public figures are "fair game" but personal attacks on individual member's character ("Better a bitch than a puppy" we all know that was a personal insult) is very uncool, i.e., not going to win you any more HRC supporters. :shrug:

[William769]

61. Just HRC Supporters?

Yea right. :eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

64. Don't change the subject. I can only speak for myself but I don't name call other members.

That's just uncivil. :( I don't condone name calling "individual members" EVER - however, public figures are fair game as per da rules.

On Edit: Yes, I have to admit that, at times, the name calling goes both ways. :shrug:

[William769]

65. I still stand by my statement.

[ShortnFiery]

66. Well that leaves us both OUTSTANDING ... in the field?

;)

[John Q. Citizen]

197. The rabid supporters seem to be good at turning others away. i guess they feel it's a done deal.

[assclown_bush]

203. Don't flatter yourself...I don't really care what YOU do with your vote.

n/t

[juajen]

106. Heck, WM, I guess I need to check in.

Hi, ya'll. Live long and prosper, Hillary!

[assclown_bush]

178. Hello juajen.

Glad to see there are at least a few Hillary supporters here.:hi:

[Capn Sunshine]

63. I didn't need the right wing to tell me what I know

They've got their own reasons. I've got mine. Mine involve HRC's wonderful group of advocates and campaign workers. I've seen their work. I can't believe they are trying again. Their core beliefs, their philosophy abput "running to the center", the refusal to discuss election fraud, the advice to not address slanderous lies from the right wing, and their staging of the candidate that resulted in America basically saying "what's the difference? Might as well keep the devil we know"

The next election should be a clearly defining campaign that puts the Democratic Party squarely in America's corner and differentiates what we hold to be different and better about our approach. Not a tepid watering down of our values to appeal to the mythical swing voter.

You want that campaign? Support HRC.

You want something different? Try a different campaign organization.

[assclown_bush]

72. I have absolutely nothing against Obama, I like the man...

I just don't believe he is seasoned enough to run this country. We have already had an inexperienced man at the helm (granted "The War Preznit" was also malicious, evil, corrupt, stupid, vile and repulsive) and I think we need someone with a little more experience to pull us through this morass and propel our nation forward. But if Obama were to win the nomination, I will be behind him 100% and I will even contribute to his campaign. I want a Democrat in office. That is my only desire.

[Capn Sunshine]

82. Not about Obama

Its about the reasons I outlined above making me not want Hillary as the candidate.
Barack will rise or sink on his own, not because Hillary stumbles.The difference is , I think he can win, and experience --deep experience, three presidential terms and multiple experienced congresses -has gotten us where we are today.

So maybe a new viewpoint is called for. Experience seems overrated.

[Crunchy Frog]

70. I'll believe she's electable the day she takes the oath of office.

If Hillary loses the next election, I'm going to smugly say "I told you so" until I get kicked off the board.

It's not that I wouldn't love to see her in the Oval Office, I just don't see it happening. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

[motocicleta]

81. B I N G O

especially the I-told-you-so part.

[ripple]

71. The problem isn't the RW attack machine

Hell, they'll go after any of our candidates, no matter who we put up.

The problem is with the electorate itself. People know who she is and they either like her or they don't. Unfortunately, not only do a lot of Americans dislike her, they hate her guts. It's virtually impossible to turn emotion like that into a vote.

It has nothing to do with Hillary's ability to govern or respond to RW attacks, but it is reality.

If we put her up as our candidate, we stand a damned good chance of losing an election that has all but been handed to us. The republican party is in shambles- she is the one candidate that will seriously rally their base. Unfortunately for us, I don't think she will be as effective at rallying our base.

[William769]

74. "not only do a lot of Americans dislike her, they hate her guts"

Then why is she the front runner? 2+2=4, it always will. the polls do not justify your statement, if they did I wouldn't be posting this.

And on that note good night all. Have to get up a good nights sleep to keep the spin to a minimum tomorrow.

[ripple]

84. Name recognition

She's polling in front of the other dems, because a lot of folks don't know anyone but her.

When the same polls match Hillary up with a republican with even moderate name recognition, she loses. It's all pretty basic.

Sleep well.

[motocicleta]

86. Why is that so hard for HRC supporters to understand?

Good night, as well. I will check in tomorrow, but for now I cannot comprehend why they don't grasp that she is up right now due to name recognition. Plant her hated ass against any of these R numbskulls in a real contest, and she'll get punked. Is that so difficult to internalize?

[assclown_bush]

100. Thank you Gallupcleta...for clearing it all up for me...

and with such witty prose.:sarcasm:



"plant her hated ass..." Hah, and you call me a misogynist? If that isn't the pot calling the kettle beige!

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[motocicleta]

116. PS, assclown

"If that isn't the pot calling the kettle beige!" - Is that supposed to be make sense? Are you on something?

[Discord]

85. I guess you believe the media still eh?

The same ones who tell us who we'll vote for, then run endless ad's against the nominee.

Who exactly is drinking the kool-aid here?

Sorry, but HRC does not equal change. I will not vote for her, I will vote third party or write in if she is the Democratic nominee. I'm tired of having to pick the lesser of two evils. You and everyone else should be too. We, and this country, wouldn't be in the position we are in now without both parties enabling the process that led us here. It didn't happen overnight, and it didn't all happen on B*'s watch. It's been an ongoing process of concessions and selling of votes to the highest bidders.

No more. Give me a candidate I can believe in. Someone I know will fight for me, and my parties core beliefs. Someone I KNOW will be working hard to undo the decades of damage to our integrity, civil liberties, and our uninalienable right to the persuit of happiness. It certainly wont be Hillary.

[bpeale]

146. oh hell yes! me too!

[zulchzulu]

87. It will begin with the people of Iowa and New Hampshire rejecting Clinton...

...and it will soon be the end of her campaign.

Bookmark this...and count on it.

[assclown_bush]

105. Obama will NEVER get the nomination...

you can take that to the bank.

[zulchzulu]

189. Wanna bet?

I've asked several Clinton supporters if they wanted to bet that Obama will get the nomination and they always run away... you game? $1000...

[assclown_bush]

204. fine...but $1000 is childs play...

how about some real stakes...

[w4rma]

89. She's not a threat. They are pushing her to win. I had a Republican tell me that she was the best

weapon the Republican Party has right now.

[Discord]

90. funnily enough...

one of the right-wing websites I troll is just chomping at the bit to have her win the nomination. They are all so concerned with the lack of a solid choice within the repuke party, they seem to think Hillary winning the nomination is the only way they have a chance in the general.

[assclown_bush]

96. And who was this sage and wise Republican who handed you such a kernel...

of wisdom? The "Wizard of Oz"?

[Scriptor Ignotus]

91. i know a few independants on a personal level

that will never vote for Hillary, but would vote for other Dems if they won the nomination. Not saying that's scientific or anything, but it seems like it warrants further thought. Hillary bashing is not limited to RW blowhards...

[assclown_bush]

97. "Hillary bashing" is alive and well on these message boards...

you don't have to search very far or even need to bother looking for right wing gasbags...plenty of misguided DU'ers get a real kick out of punching Hillary around.

[Cleita]

101. There is a difference between bashing and pointing out some

bothersome facts. Bashing is what freepers do with their insane hatred of all things Hillary for no apparent reason other than Rush Limbaugh told them they should. Questioning the candidate's politics is an entirely different matter it's supposed to stimulate discussion not accusations of bashing. If you feel a person has their facts wrong then you are supposed to present your facts to refute theirs. Do you think you could attempt to do that?

[assclown_bush]

104. And what would the "facts" be...

as you see them?

[Cleita]

110. I didn't accuse the poster of Hillary bashing, you did.

I in fact agree with him, so the ball is in your court to convince us otherwise.

[assclown_bush]

134. I quoted "Hillary bashing" from his post...read it with open eyes...

I also did not accuse him of "Hillary bashing", I don't really know why you are projecting and getting so defensive? Still, I asked you what the "facts" are as you see them. You failed to address the question.

[Cleita]

169. My bad. I was projecting your hostility for anything

anti-Hillary from another post you made. That was late last night, wasn't it? Well, I hate to leave this love fest, but I gotta go partake in my "real 3-D" life right now.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

122. with friends like these...

if its any help, I'm seeing a lot of bashing on Edwards and Obama too. it's to be expected...

[assclown_bush]

246. I don't believe I have been bashing Edwards or Obama...

and I don't understand why that should justify the bashing of Hillary? Why is any of it "to be expected"? Is the purpose of DU to supply a forum to bash the Democratic candidates? Aren't there enough repub sites around for that?

[Discord]

137. and that doesn't give you a BIG warning flag

that she will not be widely supported, and thereby never have a chance of winning?

Keep supporting a loser. Its only your country at stake.

[assclown_bush]

147. I'll support whom I want...

and the country belongs to all of us...I have never claimed it for my own.

[Discord]

155. I never said you couldn't supprt her...

I just said that by supporting her, you could be participating in the handing of the WhiteHouse to Republicans.

[chknltl]

111. I will echo another posters thoughts from this thread and...

...add my own.

First, this is a respectable post here assclown_bush. You have stated your opinions without damning other Democratic candidates. (Refreshing around here these days and I hope others emulate this). I am posting here as a soapbox for my rant, adding my support to yours.

Secondly: I am not a supporter of Senator Clinton. The truth is I prefer her many times over anyone the republican party has to offer. The repuke party fully endorses the notion that any Democrats, or Progressives who dislike Senator Clinton, should abstain from voting for her if she gets the nod.

I do not like voting for bad as opposed to worse, I am not convinced that she is "bad" but I am quite convinced that she is not "worse". Each and every member of the republican field of candidates is "FAR WORSE" than Senator Clinton. So if it comes down to Senator Clinton vs a repuke tell me which repuke is better than Senator Clinton? Would you vote for him? Or would you write in Ralph Nader instead, robbing the Democrats of another possibly much needed vote?

If Senator Clinton will energize the repuke base, does it make ANY sense to spend this time between now and election day acting like a good repuke by tearing her down and de-energizing our base? Why would anyone here in the Democratic Underground want to make things easier for the repukes? This is something I do not understand. By labeling Senator Clinton "repuke lite" aren't you doing just that my fellow DUers?

I can accept not wanting her because of her issues...I have mine as well with her BUT I'll NOT spend my time between now and election day acting like a bush supporter tearing at john mccain prior to the 04 elections...that is not what I am about and it would be nice if more of my fellow DUers would get out of that particular boat as well.

Just one more thing: If somehow all we had left to vote for was repukes would it make sense to walk away here? Yes the urge would be overwhelming to do this BUT our votes might make the difference between Tancredo or Ron Paul. Yes I hate Ron Paul, the man has even gone as far as to say he is against UNICEF for christ sake! He is anti abortion and has a great many other issues...we could hijack this thread with those issues, BUT we COULD still work with this candidate if it meant beating Tancredo who is FAR WORSE NUTS than Ron Paul. Would you throw your vote away so easily and perhaps settle for four years of Tancredo because you will NEVER vote for a repuke? I hope you are made of sterner stuff here my fellow DUers.

Fortunately we do not face so nightmarish a fate here. I suggest we find ways to resolve our differences between now and the next election. Each and every member of the Democratic Underground is my ally in the fight against the repukes...we may not be able to pick each battle but we can find the best course for winning them. Better yet, if we have issues with Senator Clinton, who is to say that we can not find ways to attempt fixing those issues...there is a good chance that many of the Clinton Supporters will find common grounds here with us on those very issues...perhaps our combined voices can make a difference within the Clinton Camp... wouldn't THAT would be something our founding fathers could smile about!

I suggest that these words are relevant here: "The enemy of my enemy is my ally." I hope we try to keep that in mind because it may make a difference.

Thank you for this thread assclown_bush. It has given many of us a place to voice our views and I see a bit more respect here than I have in other similar threads. This gives me hope for the Democrats as a whole. To be honest and frank here, I am not sure we will make it to the next election...the very election we pin the hopes of Democracy on may not come to pass...I just do not trust bush's puppetteers... this "squabble" is a distraction I am confident they like seeing here in the DU. They thrive on keeping WE THE PEOPLE divided and sub-divided...a trap many of us have little trouble falling into. IF we somehow get to the next election we will need a united front which rallies around whoever gets the nod. Are you listening to my words Senator Clinton supporters?...If she does not get the nod, WE THE PEOPLE still need you, your voices, your votes and your support. :grouphug: I suggest we all think whose help we will be needing soon enough and who we should NOT be attempting to alienate between now and then with mean little close minded words! If we don't then another four more repuke years may indeed be our last.

btw: I am not overly fond of your name but love the way you think. You are no ass, no clown and no bush!
:pals:

[avrdream]

209. Thank you....

for that wise and thoughtful response. I mean it when I say that you are the type of poster who I will pay attention to when it comes to advice/opinions about different candidates, even if that candidate isn't one I would normally prefer.

Thank you again for reason.

[assclown_bush]

240. What a wonderful and sweet post, chklntl!

You understood everything I tried to state (albeit in my own somewhat obtuse way).

I thank you for your moral support.:hi:

[GeorgeGist]

114. "too much baggage" ...

includes the Clinton legacy ... aka current reality.

[assclown_bush]

241. You are down on "the Clinton legacy"?

Why? What did he fail to do for YOU?:shrug:

[MadHound]

115. I don't give a damn about Hillary, or any other candidates, baggage or electability

I frankly can't vote for Hillary because I don't want to see her in office. I despise her politics and policies, and fear what is going to happen under her administration. The Dems, both base and leadership, are going to let their guard down as they did under her husband, and all sorts of horrible legislation will be rammed through, while the public snoozes thinking all is well since a Dem is in office.

I fear that Hillary will keep us in Iraq, will continue to outsource, and will in general continue to lead this country right over the cliff, albeit at a slower pace.

This is why I find myself unable to vote for her.

[assclown_bush]

242. But, how do you really feel???

[Ethelk2044]

121. She will never get my support

[assclown_bush]

243. What more can one say...with Democrats like these, who needs Nader?

[Totally Committed]

131. She will never have my support or my vote.

Not under any circumstances. This Rightward, Ho! Democratic Party has to stop here and now, or go on without me. Either way, no to Mrs. Clinton.

TC

[Perry Logan]

145. Hillary is a golden opportunity to torture the Right

Keep in mind that huge amounts of money are spent every year to show Hillary in a bad light. Some of you may have absorbed some of this propaganda.

assclown_bush is right: wingers are terrified of Hillary. Her Presidency will be eight years of pain for the Right. Many Repugs will up and die when she takes office.

Hillary represents a golden opportunity to torture the Right--just as they've been torturing us all these years. Can we afford to pass this opportunity up?

[assclown_bush]

150. Thanks for the post Perry...

but I am afraid that many Democrats have, indeed, bought into the propaganda. And, sadly, they are blind to the fact that they have done so.

[Discord]

158. please, you think being derrogatory to the posters here

and claiming that we are so dense or unenlightened that we dislike her due to propaganda? That is so utterly offensive I wouldn't know where to start in berating your assinine comments.

My opinion is mine, and it is an informed and reasoned opinion, that I didn't just pick up overnight.

I have been against HRC running for pres since 2004. I have been actively campaigning to prevent her from winning in the primaries. I see it as important to the future of this country that she does not win the nomination. My mother, a lesbian feminist activist, is also very outspokenly against HRC. She will also not vote for her in the general election. If she can't get the vote of a liberal woman feminist, she doesn't stand a chance.

[assclown_bush]

168. And I know other people who won't vote for anyone other than Hillary...

nyah nyah nyah nyah!:sarcasm:

You are just so well informed and reasoned. However, pointing out all your anecdotal evidence proves nothing but your personal experience. Nothing more.

[Discord]

170. again, glad to see that you take the situation in this

country so lightly. Things must be wonderful up there in Beverly Hills. :eyes:

[assclown_bush]

176. Would it make you happier if I pulled my hair out by the roots...

just because some Democrats don't want to vote for Hillary? As I said previously in other posts on this thread, I am in support of Hillary, but if she fails to win the nomination I will be glad to vote for whomever is the Democratic choice. Unlike some of the children here on on this thread, I will NOT take my ball and go home and pout if my candidate fails to win. I care too much about our country to do that. Obviously some people don't.

[Discord]

190. I care too much about this country to vote FOR her.

And you can quit qith your assinine remarks and calling other posters "children". Gimmie a break, is that what qualifies as "winning a debate" where you come from. To insult other posters?

It's not a matter of "taking the ball and going home" Its about doing the right thing, and voting my conscience. I'm sure since your a self-asserting "well to do" You'll do just fine with Hillary protecting your bank account. She certainly wont be protecting mine or that of the majority of Americans.

[assclown_bush]

201. Vote your conscience and enjoy the next eight years of republican rule...

I have enough money, the means and the wherewithal to move elsewhere if I choose to. I sold my real estate holdings in late 2004, I lease houses here and am completely liquid. I spent close to two years traveling around the globe and enjoyed myself while a bunch of idiots in the U.S. voted the coward from crawford into the white house for another term. Too many idiots did not feel that John Kerry was worthy of the white house and THEY stayed home and let the Republicans win. Keep doing it. I assure you that I have not suffered financially because of bush in the white house. But I will gladly pay more in taxes if it means taking care of health-care, education and other social services. Unlike you, I put my country ahead of my own selfish desires.

I never intended to win a "debate". I imagine that all the Democrats who voted for Ralph Nader are comforted each and every day (while this country plods through its decline) by the fact that they too voted their "conscience".

[Discord]

215. Your arrogance and attitude

digust me. Your assertions and assumptions about my thoughts and opinions are not only false, and ill-conceived, but your manners and tactics of attacking others who disagree with your position is also about as worthy and mature as a grade-schooler. Grow up. Your pathetic attempts to coerce the intelligent and enlightened posters of DU has only met you with the expected backlash of ridicule and distrust. Your comments sound eerily like they have come right off the Faux homepage. Take your vote, and throw it away, its your vote to waste. Me? I'm planning on supporting a candidate who represents me. If you can stomache another election of pulling the handle while trying to keep your last meal down, then whatever. I'm sorry that your so blinded by your crusade, that you can't see the forest through the trees.

[assclown_bush]

218. If I had known that it was necessary for me to sweet talk you...

I would have baked you a cake!

The only person throwing your vote away is you. IF you fail to vote in an election.

I don't care if some of the posters on this thread attack my position: they have done so with rancor and with hate (you yourself point out their "ridicule and distrust"). It is not enough for some of them to write that Hillary cannot win but it is somehow imperative for them to say that the accusations leveled at her are so daunting that she SHOULDN'T win the nomination simply because she has been tarred and feathered. I have little patience for mob behavior and, trust me, as a gay man I am well acquainted with it. Yet a bunch of disgruntled malcontents are not going change my position. All the people who spout out against Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are politically naive: politics will not move at the speed they desire. Ever. Politics must be negotiated~~~it is just the nature of the beast. If you don't believe me, keep banging your head against the wall when your elected politicians fail to behave in the way you want, with the speed you want AND as vehemently as you want.

As for my comments sounding "like they have come right off the Faux homepage" that seems to be one of the most common (nay, overused and tired) attempts at an insult on the DU boards: if someone has a different point of view they are either a "troll" (which I was accused of on this thread) or one is a republican in Democrat's clothing. Who is behaving as "mature as a grade~schooler"? One poster even impugned the veracity of my avatar~~~as if I need to prove to anyone that I am, indeed, gay. Even my choice of automobile seems to be a target of abuse (I can only imagine what people would write if I berated others because THEIR vehicular choices). The level of discourse on DU has fallen by the wayside. Anyone who does not fit in is marginalized and ridiculed and subject to mistrust. It has become nothing more than a High School quad with cliques at the ready to beat anyone and everyone down who does not toe the line.

Finally, and because I (like my fave Sandra Bernhard) may indeed be a "petty and bilious girl" feel the need to point out to you that the correct quotation is "you can't see the forest FOR the trees". NOT "through" the trees. Look it up in the Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, though who could fault you~~~I am sure that your acquaintance with such a book is (as the French say) en passant at best.

http://www.bartleby.com/59/4/cantseethefo.html

[Spoonman]

187. If she gets nominated,

we will loose. (period)
She will not carry a single southern state.
The non-partisan voters will not vote for her in any state.
She is hated by more than just wingers. (a quick look within our party will confirm)
ANY Democrat will be torture to the right.

I hate to say it, but I will not vote if she's the candidate.

[truebrit71]

149. Please try and understand this..THE REPUBLICANS WANT HER AS THE CANDIDATE.

They CANNOT stand on their own platform so the ONLY way they can get back into the WH is to have the most villified, hated politician in the Democratic party as the nominee.

The ONLY way her nomination could arouse more hatred is if she chose Senator Kennedy as her running mate...

Republicans will FLOCK to the polls just to vote AGAINST her....

This has nothing to do with buying into right-wing talking points, this is a simple statement of fact. A Hillary nomination will fire up the rethuglican base like no other person in the Democratic party.

To deny that is to deny reality.

[Cleita]

161. You are so right.

This is how I see it. They know they don't have a good chance to win the White House with the candidates that they have, that the next President will be a Democrat, so they want the Democrat who is most like them and that's Hillary. It's a win, win for them. Republicans who might have voted for a John Ewards, won't vote for Hillary and will either stay home or hold their nose and vote for whomever the Republican candidate is and that most likely will be Rudy Giuliani. Since Giuliani doesn't really stand avery good chance, everyone will have to hold their nose and vote for Hillary. Either way, the GOP wins.

[truebrit71]

162. My point exactly. This has nothing to do with disparaging HRC....

...simply stating the fact that NOTHING will unify the GOP more quickly than Hillary is the Dem nominee...

[bvar22]

160. Its not the "baggage" or "electability" that bother me.

Those items are for the American Idol fans here.

It is HRCs RECORD, association with Corporate Dollars and AIPAC, and support for Imperial Wars that truly frighten me. In other words, I care about The Issues!

You cannot be Anti-War and support HRC/Obama.

You cannot be Pro-LABOR and support HRC/Obama.

You cannot be Pro-Environment and support HRC/Obama.

You cannot be Pro-Universal Healthcare and support HRC/Obama. (HRC/Obama are selling a "For Profit Mandatory Health Insurance" scam NOT Universal healthcare)


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Cleita]

171. Your points are exactly why many of us don't support her,

yet when anyone points those things out the pro-Hillary factions accuse you of being commie-pinko hippies.

[Discord]

172. or brainwashed by MSM rhetoric...

:eyes:

[Spoonman]

186. Or the writing on the wall

is too clear to deny.
We had a family gathering last weekend (aunts, uncles, cousins etc.).
ALL life long Democrats (generations back).
2/3rds stated they would rather vote republican than for her. (my mother even said she was too big of a "bitch".) MAJOR jaw dropper to hear my mother use that word!!!!
Hillary is absolutely unelectable.
Swing voters will hand it to the republicans on a silver platter if she gets the nomination, to think otherwise is foolish.

[Discord]

191. Same with my family.

From hippy draft dodgers to the moderates, almost none would cast thier ballot FOR Hillary. They would vote for Edwards, Obama, Kerry, Gore, or nearly any other Dem who won the nomination, just not her.

The MSM is way too happy to all but declare her the winner, and for good reason. Thier corporate masters know that Hillary wont rock the boat. I've never in my life campaigned against a Democrat in the primaries. This time, with so much at stake, I feel obligated to.

[riqster]

188. No disagreement on any of those points, but...

Reeps are worse. To refuse to vote for a Dem is the same thing, mathematically, as voting for a Reep.

[riqster]

177. Been voting since 1976

And have always voted against Reeps. I have never had a Dem candidate that I liked enough to vote FOR. And so far, there are none in the race for 2008, either.

The Presidential election is binary. Reep or Dem. Period. Not voting for the Dem equals voting for the Reep. It's simple math, and numbers don't care about the why, just the what.

I don't much care for Hillary either, but I refuse to help elect another Reep. I'll vote for a cheeselog if one gets the nod.

[assclown_bush]

180. My thoughts exactly riqster...

I too will not sit back and hand over an election to the repubs. I will vote NO MATTER who wins the Democratic nomination.






With that, I have to go and do something besides spending my time online.

[Discord]

192. I understand your reasonnig...

... but until we learn our lesson, and stop voting for the "lesser of 2 evils" and demand representation that is not evil at all, we will never see change, and this country will never get better.

We are the only ones who can demand change. I for one, will not vote for anyone just to prevent the other side from winning anymore. I for one, will take a stand, and demand change and TRUE Democratic representation.

[riqster]

221. Philosophically, we are two peas in a pod

The only difference is on a tactical level.

Here's why I will act as I have said: Yes, in 2000, Gore was too Right for my liking. But, he would not have gone to war in Iraq-hell, he would have likely stopped 9/11 by paying attention to the warnings. He would not have shoved the country into a recession, french-kissed Big Oil's ass, run up the deficit, or made America a symbol of evil throughout the world.

There are millions of dead innocents around the world as a result of Bush's installation into the Oval Office. Gore was no more perfect in 2000 than any of the 2008 candidates are now, but he was/they are all better than the alternative.

Parts of Left promulgated an all-or-nothing attitude in 1999, and the country got nothing but Right-wingers. As I have said elsewhere, it is not the only reason for the Bushistas' coup, but it depressed Dem votes and helped to enable the theft. We must learn from our mistakes, being mindful that our individual choices have global ramifications.

I cannot see voting in such a way as will guarantee more dead kids.

[NobleCynic]

196. Well if you look at some of the responses in this thread

I'd say that it isn't unreasonable to be concerned about the chances of someone who can provoke such vitriol from both the far left and far right.

[TeamJordan23]

200. I think you are doing a good job of turning people away from Hillary. Congrats. nt

[assclown_bush]

202. Really? Pray tell, why is that?

n/t

[Discord]

216. because of your condesending remarks and

childish rantings. Bravo!

[assclown_bush]

220. "Childish rantings" is something YOU are quite familiar with...

n/t

[Forkboy]

222. I get the feeling that might the purpose.

[snowbear]

205. You are truly living up to your name.

[assclown_bush]

206. How clever you are...you're make~up techniques are improving.

You might find a mate yet...

[snowbear]

207. Oh geez... I don't need another one!

One is enough!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Edit to remove Nate's photo.

No telling what Asswipe will do with it.

And ah --- no --- he plays in college ---- not in the "Bill-fold" league.

Good grief... You are an insulting old koot, Bush.

[assclown_bush]

208. Did that come in your bill~fold?

How sad, how very very sad.

[zulchzulu]

211. DUPE

[zulchzulu]

212. Rupert Murdoch couldn't agree with you more, dear Clinton Comrade!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/09/politics/main1600694.shtml



Rupert LOVES Hillary! Oh! Tears of joy!


:crazy:

[ima_sinnic]

213. like HRC, your post is nothing but insubstantial fluff

your reasons we should support HRC: "she looks presidential and she is getting her message across"--gee, where can I sign up to vote for somebody like that? after all, that would do so much to advance Democratic ideals! :sarcasm:
--what "message" is she "getting across," anyway? the only "message" I hear is that HRC can't take a firm stand on ONE GODDAM THING!! she is a coward, not a leader, and we do NOT need that in the WH!
--you would "vote for her in a pinch"--well, bully for you! you are free to do what you want, but I don't do things "in a pinch"--I can't stand the thought of that *-enabling middle-of-the-roader cowardly never-take-a-stand-on-anything mealy-mouthed corporate-kissass being "president." I advocate for Kucinich now as the only innovative, wise, visionary, COURAGEOUS person who is running, but will switch to Gore or Clark if either should run, and when it comes down to the GE, if HRC is the Dem nominee, I will write in Gore.
--after reading this entire thread, I can only conclude that you are a rich me-firster who thinks Hollywood is some big "industry" in this country--AS IF everyone should flock to the LA cesspool to "get into the film industry"--have to agree with someone way upthread who reminds you that that "industry" is great for pool boys, gardeners, nannies, and chauffeurs--sorry, but I just don't imagine myself in a career in any of those "fields," nor do I have any interest at all in joining the masses in the big crime-ridden, self-centered, traffic-gridlocked, wannabe LA area. And I feel sooo sorry for you, having lost the chance to go to the "resorts" of Venezuela! It must SOOO SUCK when the world is not rushing to cater to YOUR wants. How grand, that you can "go around the world" if you want--maybe by some miracle you will encounter some reality in the world out there that isn't "about you," something more poignant, substantial, and meaningful than your Rodeo Drive world.
--oh, and btw, the repukes have been campaigning for HRC for years now.

[Discord]

217. Bravo. I just knew the posters of DU were too

intelligent to fall for the Faux-style rantings of a fringe Dem trying to coerce the masses to support its absolute worst representitive in this primary.

again... Bravo!!!

:yourock: :toast:

[assclown_bush]

219. So much envy and jealousy in your post...

how sad for you.:hi:

[ima_sinnic]

226. you wish

I have flown over LA at night and was astounded, shocked, and saddened at the extent of it.
You might notice in my profile I live in the boonies--I have no desire to live in that rat-race hell--you are free to interpret that as "envy and jealousy," but you'd be a fool to do so.

[assclown_bush]

229. The only "fool" is you who have decided that everyone who lives in L.A. lives in hell...

I could not care less about you to read your profile. Once again, you flatter yourself.

[ima_sinnic]

233. whatever--I learned everything I need to know about you from OP

--enough to know I couldn't care less about you, either.

[assclown_bush]

235. Yet, you assume that I would look at YOUR profile??? ROFL

n/t

[Forkboy]

223. This might not be going out on a limb.

But I suspect there isn't much real about this OP.I wouldn't get to worked up over him. :)

[ima_sinnic]

227. yes, sounds quite superficial (nt)

[assclown_bush]

237. Message boards are "read". Posts do not "speak", so they cannot "SOUND" superficial.

BTW, how is Kucinich polling these days?

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08dem.htm

[assclown_bush]

236. The same could be said about you...

n/t

[rodeodance]

224. I wish her and the other Dem canidates well and if nominated I WILL vote for her.

[assclown_bush]

231. The reason and logic of your post appears to fall on deaf ears for the anti-Hillary fringe group

Not one person seems to want to reply to posters who agree with me. All they can do is post shrill and hysterical diatribes against me or Hillary (or a combination thereof).

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

[Prophet 451]

230. I'd worry about her safety

Granted, the right are going to hate any Dem candidate but the loathing directed at Hillary in the last fifteen years or so is so vitriolic, so violent, that if she won the primary or even the presidency, I would honestly worry about her safety because I think it's exceedingly likely that some deranged dittohead would try taking a shot at her.

[assclown_bush]

232. The same thing could be said for Barak Hussein Obama...

Should people, therefore, refrain from supporting him...so as to spare him his life? There are plenty of neo-nazi and white supremacist hate groups (to say nothing of the people who are convinced that Barak is a closet Muslim and therefore a threat to America) who would probably like to see him interred.

I would vote for Barak if he got the nomination. Although I think he is a neophyte, I think he would be better than any of the repub candidates.

[Prophet 451]

244. Fair point

I guess I forget about the racist stuff with Obama simply because I don't meet many people who think like that.

Obviously, you should vote for whomever the Dem candidate is, I just worry about the safety of those two in particular.

[assclown_bush]

245. With bush and cheney entrenched as they are...

and with crazed and doped up fiends like Limbaugh and the harpy Coulter, is any candidate safe from possible harm? Yet, I agree, Hillary and Barak are in more danger than the other Democratic candidates. Still, some of the anti-Hillary zealots on this thread may be unstrung enough to present a threat to her safety. From reading some of their posts, I wouldn't dismiss criminal behavior as one of their (less than social) graces.

[Jack Sprat]

238. If Repubs think of Clinton as a threat,

then it is because she is appealing to many of their voters. She is outhawking the warhawks, at times. I don't know if she is a Democrat or Curtis LeMay.

[assclown_bush]

239. If you take the time to google her name...you will find proof that she is a Democrat.

I don't know why that should be that difficult for you.

[PATRICK]

247. Unelectable is not

the only problem. Kerry and Gore actually won aw well as Hillary could be expected to be. Both carried "negatives" or ground in media falsehoods to two stolen elections. A slimmer margin, fixed vulnerability, predictability- including poor response to fraud and myth-making- make for uncomfortable comparisons which is not personal and not damning her legitimate chances to garner the majority number of votes, counted, unsuppressed and untampered totals.

This "unelectable" fear is a myth that serves all the other negatives. If beaten aside because it is untrue in a real sense it might again sidetrack focus on fraud, the re-energizing of the GOP, the entry of third party campaigns, the fraud margin, weakness in the Dem campaign, harm to the coattails(so they too can pass into the fraud margin) and make the media GOP role very very easy. They have the luxury of grabbing the election or insuring a weak presidency and smaller Dem gains and setting up the next four years for a miserable fall. None of these are a guarantee of GOP electoral success. They squeaked or bullied through real popular defeats with a lot of exposure of their crimes. Maybe this time, maybe we will fight back, at least. It does not mean another candidate must fare better much less have an absolute guarantee of great success.

Hyperbole doesn't help. The cold hard lessons of very recent experience do and nothing much has changed or WILL reasonably change according to that experience and how everyone has reacted to it. The issue can be argued more forcibly that if you want more, including more change and progressive momentum, Hillary might not be the best choice with lots of knowns available. Party politics that would do the same for the party itself argues the same case. Solely, personally attacking Hillary in terms of doom ironically advances all the known dangers in itself. We don't need that kind of hyperbole. That kind of fear has people attacking ALL other choices instead of the horrendous GOP and their cheat machine and the drastic consequences to all humanity unless we get our act together.

Present your candidates and arguments to the electorate. They don't need to be encouraged over much to see all the negative sides at this point. People are very doubtful and leery. If you can show that President Kerry and President Gore fared no worse than Hillary and that is something we want to put at the head of the ticket again- with enthusiasm- go ahead. It is a question though whether Hillary promises more establishment than progressive victory than the relative liberal populism of those two candidates. Must her victory- at any margin- be seen as a reaffirmation of the DLC ascendancy? If the past has been a clue it will be outrageous.

Everyone is going uphill in actuality despite the bubble of rapturous support individuals receive from their closest supporters and the vaporous bubbles of current opinion polling. Saying she has no chance of repeating the successes of Presidents Gore and Kerry is not totally justified.

[ellisonz]

250. One word: CLENIS!

:puke:

[eridani]

252. Anyone whose campaign is run by union busters is NOT on my side n/t

[Vinca]

253. The Republicans are the ones insisting Hillary will win the nomination.

That, alone, is worrisome. It's as if they've had talking points sent around that say "push Hillary, say nothing more." I'm sure they've got a plan in the works that will make the Swift Boaters seem like a bunch of great guys. I'm not a Hillary fan, but I'll pull the lever in the general election if she's the nominee as a vote against any Republican.