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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 01:18 AM
Original message
Democratic controlled House votes to lay the groundwork for war against Iran
Please read the LBN thread posted by Scurrilous here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2887994&mesg_id=2887994

Here is Congressman Dennis Kucinich's statement on the forerunner to an Iran War Resolution that Pelosi's House just voted for:

No Questions Asked?

Congress Votes to Send the President of Iran Before a United Nation’s Court While Refusing a New York Times Translation of the President’s Remarks


Washington, Jun 20 - WASHINGTON, D.C. — Today the House of Representatives passed H. Con.Res.21, a resolution that pressures the United Nations Security Council to charge Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating the 1948 Convention on Genocide and the United Nations Charter because of his alleged calls for the destruction of Israel.

“There is reasonable doubt with regard to the accuracy of the translations of President Ahmadinejad’s words in this resolution. President Ahmadinejad’s speeches can also be translated as a call for regime change, much in the same manner the Bush Administration has called for regime change in Iraq and Iran, making this resolution very ironic,” Kucinich said.

Kucinich attempted to insert into the Congressional Record two independent translations of the speech from The New York Times and Middle East Media Research Institute, which contain significant differences in the translations of the speech compared to the resolution before the House. However, Members objected formally and the attempt was blocked.

“When I learned of these translations, I felt obligated to bring it to the attention of the House. It seems that much has been lost in translation. Members have a right to know of the translations and the refusal to permit them to become a part of the Congressional Record does a disservice to Members.”

A similar House resolution, H. Res. 523, passed the House two days after the October 26, 2005, speech and before these translations were available. Kucinich supported that resolution in the 109th Congress.

“I am unequivocal in my support for the security and survival of Israel, and I do have serious concerns with the remarks made by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, President of Iran. But, I object to resolutions that lay the groundwork for an offensive, unprovoked war.

“The resolution passed by the House today sets a dangerous precedent in foreign affairs. A mistranslation could become a cause of war. The United States House may unwittingly be setting the stage for a war with Iran.

“We must make every effort to ascertain the truth because peace in the world may hang in the balance. The only way to definitively know what President Ahmadinejad meant is for the United States to engage in meaningful, diplomatic relations with the country of Iran.”

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=67929
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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just
:puke:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. This is like a movie sequel
Iraq War is followed by Iran War. Same movie stars, same director, same producers, same supporting cast. The lies are different, but it is the same bullshit.
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Atmosphere Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. .
There really is no such thing as democrat and republican when it comes to matters related to Israel
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Right. We're attacking Iran because they were nasty to Israel.
What a trumped-up crock. Even more disgusting is the number of people here who believe this was engineered by those conniving Jews.

Bush will invade Iran for jaywalking, for a blue dress, for whatever reason he thinks of that day. The decision has been made. Caligula is simply waiting for a way to do it.

But I really gotta thank him for dragging the Jews into it. We'll get the blame and all the plotting oil Christians will be our victims. What can you expect from Hitler's banker's grandson?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Likud's Bibi Netanyahu is coming to US to talk about war on Iran
Joe Lieberman called for war on Iran just last week.

They are not alone! The same coalition of Christian fundies, Republican neocons, Democratic neolibs, Israeli rejectionists, and the Israel Lobby that pushed for and helped sell the war on Iraq, are now following the same script to push for war against Iran.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'm sure it's just a meet and greet...
Netanyahu is about to make his case:

"Likud Chairman Binyamin Netanyahu flew to the United States on Tuesday night to meet with Vice President Dick Cheney, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton and New York state officials."

This is a short article from The Jerusalem Post and thus, I snipped before the second paragraph states that Netanyahu during a previous visit had met with Obama.

And here is the same news with a twist. It seems that BiBi will also be meeting with Fred Thompson. (hmmm? what's with that?)

Haaretz

"Netanyahu will then arrive in Washington where he will meet for talks on the Iranian issue with Vice President Dick Cheney, Democratic Party presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton, and Republican Party presidential hopeful Fred Thompson."

It would seem that there will be quite a gathering of hawks this week.

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. So, because the Jews control America, we'll go to war?
Edited on Thu Jun-21-07 10:54 AM by aquart
That's your story and you're sticking to it?
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. With respect, that's not the way I read #3...
Saying Likud is pulling US strings is not the same as saying Jews are, is it? Likud is just an Israeli Party. I read it more as an indictment of Likud and their American counterpart, AIPAC, all Jews.

Am I wrong?

TC
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Once we start mini-nuking Iran....
our level of aggressive slaughter may finally be on the order of that of Adolph Hitler. I really don't think this is in the best interest of Israel, and that Israelis and American Jews have been taken for a ride by right-wing proto-fascist interests.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. It would be a lot cheaper to air evac the whole nation of Israel to Montana.
End of story in the mideast.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. There ya go!
Or Wyoming! Let Netanyahu run against Lynne Cheney. I'd pay to see that mudfight!

TC
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Since Cheney is so interested in mideast affairs, let it be wyoming.
Yep, the mud would fly.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Um...that's the home of the Jewish people. Self-determination.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Becomes a planet issue when they are in the middle of blowing up the globe.
And why do they want to stay in a hell hole?
Why not have a nice life and go somewhere peaceful?
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Because it is home. And they are not 'blowing up the globe,' that's ridiculous.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. President Ahmadinejad is clear, Kucinich and Juan Cole not withstanding - but "war with Iran" is
not war with President Ahmadinejad -

curious logic by DK - he is usually better than this.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. How do you know he is clear? Do you speak Iranian?
Edited on Thu Jun-21-07 10:20 AM by Zodiak Ironfist
And it isn't Dennis Kucinich and Juan Cole doing the interpreting. The citations were the New York Times and the Middle East Media Research Institute.

"Kucinich attempted to insert into the Congressional Record two independent translations of the speech from The New York Times and Middle East Media Research Institute, which contain significant differences in the translations of the speech compared to the resolution before the House. However, Members objected formally and the attempt was blocked.

“When I learned of these translations, I felt obligated to bring it to the attention of the House. It seems that much has been lost in translation. Members have a right to know of the translations and the refusal to permit them to become a part of the Congressional Record does a disservice to Members.”

Let's not make this about personalities, but of citations. There are two cited translations that do not match, but because they do not match the rhetoric that will lead us to war, they were ignored.

That is what happened.

We would rather react to lies that make us the good guys and them the bad guys than actually deal with the evidence and issue at hand. That is why we do not have any semblance of democracy and that is why there is no hope for it until people stop making up shit that already fits their world view and running with it.

When people who do not speak the language tell me that Ahmedinijad was clear, then I know they are only spouting what fits their world view. I do not pretend to know what the man said, but I know there are two citations that differ from the paranoid "we have to bomb them" propaganada campaign we are hearing at a fevered pitch now.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. there are translations - some by friends - that say Cole is wrong or at least using cherry colored
glasses in his translation - and I trust my friends - who are Iranian - to Cole - who is not.

As to needing to bomb Iran - that was my point also - we are on the same side on this. There is no need to bomb Iran.

But the reason is not that Ahmedinijad did not say he wanted to destroy the Jewish state of Israel and to drive the Jews in Israel out of the Mid-east - because he did say that - contrary to Cole's BS. (He did not say he was going to bomb or shoot missiles at anybody - so Cole is correct there). He also said Jews deserve to die ( a thought some idiots on this board seem be OK with as long as they are Israeli Jews)

Where Cole is correct, in my opinion, is in reminding us that Ahmedinijad does not have all that much power - and certainly does not have the power to shoot a missile off into Israel without the permission of many others.

He does have the power to finance terrorists and give them weapons - the same as Saddam had.

And I did not think Saddam having that power was a big enough deal to be worth a war - and I do not think Ahmedinijad, who less control over what his country does than Saddam had, is worth a war.

Iran is economically an easy target via sanctions - why the hell we do not go that route is beyond me.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I would just like a little less black/white on all of this
In matters of war we deal with the evidence in front of us. Indisputably, our country is on the drumbeat for war with Iran, so when discussing these issues, I think definitive statements about the clarity of the quote are more rhetorical and less factual in light of muliple sources suggesting otherwise.

Your Iranian friend's contributions to this debate are noted. Speaking of which, I have an Iranian coworker that I have never asked this question (Iranian national going to school here). I should, but there is some weirdness because my country wants to attack his...

Is Cole the source of both citations or just one?

This issue greatly concerns me because I really do feel that a widened war into Iran will pretty much do this country in and world peace will be dashed. Our resources are utterly depleted and the world already ahtes us. Without well-vetted information, I am deeply afraid we will do the Iraq War Dance all over again and descend into the abyss.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I keep thinking there is no way folks are so stupid as to go to war with Iran - but then I
recall that the GOP really has no limits in that regard - and I get nervous.

As to the source of the benign translations of the Iranian speeches, Cole is the most widely known, but there are many Iranian (in english) comments on the internet that claim the Iranian Pres did not say what he said.

Cole has a fantastic knowledge of the area (our South west America born boy grew up in France, and studied in Boston, Lebanon, and Egypt) - but he does take - in this case - a generous interpretation of the words (he is not making up his translation - it is just a variation others do not agree with).
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. We are facing a Trifecta of disastrous wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran
We voted for a Democratic Congress in the hopes that once in control, the Democrats would defund the war and bring the troops home. They didn't!

At a minimum, we expected the Democratic Congress to put the brakes on any future neocon war. They haven't!

Not only has our Democratic Congress failed to do the right thing, they are now doing the wrong thing by blocking attempts by Dennis Kucinich and others to bring to light information which could slowdown the rush to war.

It is no wonder that the Democratic Congress is now more unpopular than the worst President in US history. At this rate, Democrats may lose control of Congress in 2008, together with any hopes to winning the White House.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
38. Power to give them weapons? Bullshit
Did you not read the thread on another major nuclear plant being built by Pakistan? And you don't know or care that AQ Khan has been peddling the technology all over the planet suffering no consequences whatsoever? Terrorists would prefer shopping next door at a country designated for attack by the US, which doesn't even have a working bomb yet why, exactly?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. MEMRI's translations are often quoted by pro-Israel war hawks in America
It is rare indeed to see one of the rightwing MEMRI's translations from Farsi become "An Inconvenient Truth" to those pushing for war on Iran. This is what makes their blocking of Kucinich so remarkable!
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. You know I hope Iran passes a similar resolution charging the US President
with violations of 1948 Convention on Genocide and the United Nations Charter because of his 'pre-emptive' invasion and occupation of Iraq. And they could add one more charge the continued, deliberate violation of the the Geneva Conventions.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. that's what i am thinking.
exactly the thing to do.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
13. "fixing the facts around the policy"
I can see the hawks in the Congress with their hands over their ears saying "nah nah nah nah nah" so they don't have to hear anything that conflicts with their world view. Isn't this about the same blindness and deafness with which they approached the IWR?

Two alternative translations are available: one from the NY Times and one from Middle East Media Research Institute.

To refuse to even allow these translations into the Congressional record should have been based on one, and only one, question: Was there a solid reason to believe that the alternative translations were inaccurate? If so, dismissing them was appropriate; if not, regardless of their feelings about Iran, this was a clear and simple case of "manufacturing evidence" and "fixing the facts around the policy".

Where have we heard that before ????????????????????????????

Given the likelihood that those who voted against admitting the alternative translations probably had no basis to know which version was closest to the TRUTH, the behavior of Congress was outrageous. No wonder they have a 14% approval rating. And this with OUR Democrats in control.

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. "We Are Losing the Fight Over Iran"
Cheers for Denis Kucinich, and hiss for the cowards in Congress who still are posturing for the public, trying not to have their congressional record stained by any vote that could be spun as soft on terrorism no matter how sensible Kucinich's amendment actually was.

I'm reposting this Kos Diary I published last week here in full, but suggest that anyone who hasn't read it over there follow the link I will leave so they can also read the discussion it generated with 436 posts. It is not just a rant, it includes source material of the propaganda campaign now being waged agaist Iran by those who have their mind set on military conflict with that nation:


We Are Losing the Fight Over Iran

The neocons have selected the designated next enemy of the United States, and they are hard at work convincing Americans to fear Iran. The public comments we just heard Joe Lieberman utter about the need to bomb Iran are just the tip of the iceberg. They position populist right wing pitch man Glen Beck on the air nightly at CNN Headline News, ranting about Iran. They pepper Jewish media with polemics about Iran, playing up fears for Israel’s security where few non Jews will notice their efforts. They have multiple front groups widely distribute email warnings about the urgent need to stand up to Iran, playing on every fear of radical Muslims imaginable, playing “the Christian card” without hesitation, while they label Iran our arch enemy at the center of a “clash of civilizations”. Republican candidates for President like nothing better than an opportunity to turn their tough act toward Tehran, where they leap frog each other to the heights of belligerency in the name of protecting America, providing cover while they safely back peddle on Iraq.

Just like they morphed Osama Bin Ladin into Saddam Hussein in 2002, neocons morph Al Qaeda into Iran today, with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the new Saddam Hussein who we must be trained to fear. And it is working. They are making significant steady progress in alarming the general public about Iran. They act like slippery weasels and say "True, Iraq was never a grave threat, but Iran actually was, and now the Iranian threat is getting greater all the time. It doesn't matter if you think attacking Iraq was a mistake, because Iran is the real deal, and now we finally must face up to something we should have dealt with a long time ago"

Republican Neocons, and some of their hawkish Democratic allies, not only believe that war with Iran is inevitable AND in the long term interests of the United States, they believe that the sooner we get it on the better. To them, military and political circumstances are as favorable now as they are likely to get, with a sitting Republican President who is predisposed to use force. Neocons see history moving against American interests if the U.S. does not act boldly to rearrange the Middle Eastern map, locking in “our” Oil Supplies now before the further rise of China handcuffs America’s ability to act.

On top of their long standing desire to take Iran's government down, Republicans have another compelling motivation to shift the public’s attention onto “the threat posed by Iran”. They need a threat from Iran to once again pump up national security hysteria to once again prop up the G.O.P. They increasingly can't point to "fighting the terrorists in Iraq so we don't have to fight them here", because the public sees fully the futility of our efforts to fight terrorists inside Iraq. The public knows that it was our invasion which created terrorists in Iraq, and that the U.S. is incapable of restoring order to Iraq now by sending in more American troops. So now is the perfect time to shift the focus onto Iran, which neocons conveniently blame for our failure in Iraq, and where they claim we will not have to send American troops in to protect America’s security, just bombs.

They skillfully play on the frustration American's feel watching our supposed Arab allies in Iraq's government, who seem to act like they hate each other as much as they hate us. Their covert message goes like this: “Wouldn't it just feel better to bomb the hell out of Islamic fanatics rather than climb into fox holes with them, where they will only stab us in the back? Who cares if Iranians call themselves Persians instead of Arabs, or that Iran is Shiite while Al Qaeda is Sunni? They’re all just crazy rag heads”. The anti-Arab hate message fueled by images of Bin Ladin, that drummed us steadily into Iraq, now is aimed at Iran, and Democrats by and large sit by passively, allowing it to go unchallenged.

And with our own peace movement completely fixated on ending the war in Iraq, we seem to have scant attention free ourselves to directly confront the chicken hawks on Iran. So we find ourselves three moves behind them on the domestic political chess board, as their construction of the public psychological framework needed to facilitate an attack on Iran nears completion. We spend so much time talking to ourselves that we don’t always hear what others might be saying to each other. We see the American public coming around to our own views on Iraq, and unconsciously assume they must view the larger question of further conflicts in the Middle East the same as we do also. Simply put, they do not.

If the public were solidly opposed to ratcheting up tensions with Iran, if they were aghast at the thought of America attacking yet another Middle Eastern nation, do you think that the House Democratic Caucus would have, with little fanfare, stripped out a proposed amendment from their original Iraq war funding legislation (the bill Bush later vetoed) that would have forced George W. Bush to come to Congress for a vote prior to an attack on Iran? Democrats retained plenty of provisions they knew full well that Bush would veto, but they removed the Iran provision themselves out of a concern expressed by some that they shouldn’t tie the hands of the President regarding Iran. It’s the dynamics of the IWR vote repeated, but since we are giving George Bush free reign against Iran this time, that somehow makes it acceptable. And unfortunately in the minds of too many Democrats as well as Republicans, that does in fact make it acceptable.

Does anyone doubt the existence of a Pro Iranian War propaganda machine? Like all such efforts this one has separate above ground and underground paths of propagation. So some Americans on Sunday tuned into respected mainstream media news program “Meet The Press” to hear veteran United States Senator Joseph Lieberman say in somber tone:

"I think we've got to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq. And to me that would include a strike over the border into Iran, where we have good evidence that they have a base at which they are training these people to kill our soldiers."

Meanwhile an unadulterated no holds barred version of the bomb Iran back into the Stone Age message gets circulated through a web site like “Family Security Matters: The National Security Recourse for American Families”, which on June 7th 2007 posted an “exclusive”; Iran Wants War. They will have it whether we want it or not.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/global.php?id=1042133

That nifty piece of reporting is laden with sober irrefutable “facts” such as these:

“Almost every day we see news reports of al Qaeda bombing attacks in Iraq. So why do Democrats still keep calling it a "civil war"? Al Qaeda terrorists are not Iraqis fighting a "civil war.” It has been reported that Iran is responsible for 80% of American deaths in Iraq, either by Iranian fighters, or by Iranian weapons and bombs provided to insurgents and al Qaeda. Neither the American government nor the press is exploiting Iran’s responsibility for these deadly attacks, which are Iranian acts of war against America and must be considered as such. This alone should provide justification for an attack on Iran.”

Ah, but that was the milder part of their commentary. Before anyone has time to get week kneed about their call for war, the commentary lays out what surely they believe is a compelling justification, including this:

“We must send a message to the rest of the Islamic world that Mecca and Medina are next if the terrorism doesn't stop now. The alternative is a long and dirty war that will last for decades. Is that what we want to live with when we have the ability to avoid it? Utter devastation worked with Japan and Germany. It will work with Islam. All we need is the courage and the will to stand up and again be the strong country that we once were. We didn't get to where we are today by bowing to the will of weak foreign powers and worrying about what they think of us.

The time has come to stand up, America!

The only thing Islam respects is brutality and overwhelming force. It's how they've lived for over a thousand years. That is why Saddam Hussein and other Islamic dictators were successful for so many years. Islamic despots know what it takes to bring Middle Eastern Islamists under control. Islamists have no respect for, or understanding of, western diplomacy and a desire for peaceful solutions. Their religion forbids compromise with the West. For them, and now for us as well, it's either kill or be killed. If we don't start playing by their rules, we're going to lose big. We cannot win this war with Western morality as the overarching factor. The first priority must be winning. Everything else is secondary. “

To dismiss the above simply as talk from and to wing nuts misses an essential element of how political discourse is shaped; framing the debate. The more comments like the above are widely disseminated, the less shocking a slightly softer version of those sentiments become. The more extreme the boundaries of debate get pushed, the more reasonable and sensible comments such as those made by Joe Lieberman on “Meet The Press” start sounding. And what do most Democrats say in turn, to define their stance to broaden the spectrum of public debate on Iran? “Iran is a threat but we should be willing to talk to them, while keeping all options on the table.” Does that sound like a fair and balanced debate to you, with the full range of views and perspectives well and equally represented? Or does it more resemble the programming on a certain well known cable news network?

Again, I say; we are losing the fight over Iran. The only force I see consistently and effectively weighing in to engage the public from a countervailing view point is StopIranar.com sponsored by General Wesley Clark and VoteVets.org. They need our help. We can’t afford for them to fail.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/15/133035/232
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. where are we going to get the money?
Seriously, let's put the idiocy of this plan aside for the moment.

Where do we get the money? And where do we get the troops?

Oh wait, new Chairman of Joint Chiefs is a Naval Admiral.

It's going to be another neocon innovation in warfare. Carrier war.
The other innovations have worked so well.

But where do we get the money?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. This is a two step war and just like a pusher they'll sell you the 1st step cheap.
First one has to accept that the neocon true believers see the world as a giant game of RISK. Only one empire will triumph and the rest become losers. They believe that a larger war fought to secure the oil resourses that "we need" in the Middle East is inevitable. They think that if we fight that war sooner rather than later the cost of victory in that war will ultimately be less costly than the cost of putting it off. Still the American public is reluctant, we have seen too much war already, we don't want to pay the price of an expanded war. So what can a Neocon do? How about the following:

Build up Iran into a major strategic threat to America. Uncover a bloody Iranian hand in every setback for American policies in the Middle East. Build on every possible fear that every supporter of Israel has that Iran is hell bent on destroying Israel ASAP. Blur every distinction possible between Iran's current leadership and Al Qaeda's current leadership by making them all out to be birds of a feather out of their mind fanatics willing to sacrifice everything on this earth to further a demented religious ideology. Stress that unlike Bin Ladin and Hussein, the Iranians really will soon have nuclear weapons in their trigger happy hands.

As that propaganda mission is nearing critical mass, also paint a rosey picture of how easy it still would be to take out Iran's nuclear capacity at this point with some well placed bombs and cruise missiles, and maybe a few brave special ops forces working with a newly embraced brave Iranian resistance movement behind enemy lines. Repeatedly emphasize that the only thing Arabs really understand (or Persians "same difference") is a demonstrated willingness to draw a line and use force to back up that line. Confidently predict that with their false bravado exposed as impotent in the face of American resolve, Iran's current regime will be torn apart by dissension and finally reputiated by the masses of Iranians now living in oppression under their harsh rule. Return to the fear argument to close the deal, saying anyone who opposes dealing with a growing Iranian threat until after it grows much stronger is either crazy or a weak spined Democratic liberal.

In other words; recycle and trot out the exact same campaign that bulldozed Democrats into standing aside and letting Iraq be invaded. The only difference this time, now that Americans are revulted by the American casualty rate inside Iraq, is the claim that we won't have to bloody our hands on the ground in pursuit of the grand victory that awaits us if we have the fortitude to strike Iran while we still are able.

You may think I'm avoiding your question but I'm not. All the neocons have to accomplish now is get to the next step of their militareistic strategy; bombing Iran. Personally I doubt they believe any of the rhetoric they will try to peddle to America. Maybe a few who are too far divorced from reality do, but I expect most of them know that attacking Iran will be the start of a larger war, not the elimination of the biggest threat facing us. They are simply counting on most Americans not figureing that out in time to stop them.

The war that an attack on Iran will bring will no longer be elective from the stand point of the vast majority of Americans. It won't remain an option after that point to say, on second thought maybe it was a mistake to attack Iran, we regret it, and if we could take the bombs back we would. It won't be an option to, once the magnitude of our mistake becomes clear, simply pull back our forces from Iran's borders and suggest that everyone go back to playing by the old rules again. Americans will be attacked both at home and abroad. The soft underbelly of America's economy will be effectively targeted by far more significant forces than Bin Ladin's dour band. In other words we will have a real war on our hands against large numbers of determined enemies who will hate us with a passion and act on that passion. You can throw in the fact that Israel also will then come under increasing attack which is what the Israel right is counting on also. It gives them the opening to call on their American allies to join with them in smashing their extremist Arab enemies.

At that point there no longer will be a viable alternative to defending ourselves militarily. Americans will no longer experience Peace as an option, regardless of who we blame for throwing the potential for peace out the window in the first place. That is when we will face a draft. That is when taxes will be raised on all Americans, though since the super rich have had their taxes cut so often in the last twenty years that barely will represent any sacrifice for them. That is when social benefits that we can not afford in a time of real war will be cut. And that is when tough talking Republicans will try to reassert themselves as the only people out there with the balls (yes I choose a chauvenistic term intentionally) to do what has to be done to protect America from it's very real enemies.

Remember, the neocons want this war. Remember, the neocons believe the only alternative to having this war is the certain crash of the American Empire. They won't bill America much for an attack on Iran, but we won't have any choice but to pay whatever we have to after America comes under fierce attack in the aftermath. The neocons want to lock in this war. The surest way to do that is to attack Iran.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. And for those who think the above scenario is "too far out there" to take seriously...
Edited on Thu Jun-21-07 07:06 PM by Tom Rinaldo
...I ask you this; how much are you willing to bet? What are you willing to lose later if you are wrong, in return for holding onto your calm certainty that it's not going to happen now? What odds will it take to justify your complacency, five to one against an American (or Israel with full American support) attack on Iran? Oh but maybe you think the odds are closer to ten to one against it, if so does that make you feel secure enough about the future to see no need for alarm now? Or maybe you think I'm a whacko alarmist, me and Wes Clark and Sy Hersh and a bunch of other crazies like them. If the odds really are 100 to one against this coming war, then can we just go back to fighting over our favorite candidates in the primaries and forget all this crap about stopping war with Iran?

One chance in a hundred are the same odds of a flood rising to the so called century mark. With a big storm already raging, and with more dark clouds gathering by the minute on the near horizan, how comfortable are you going to sleep in the flood plain of that century storm? The 20the Century saw two World Wars. The 21st century hasn't really seen one yet, but it's still so early. One isn't exactly over due yet, so why would anyone think we might be approaching the brink of one now?


Edited to fix a typo
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Tom, great point as usual
I foresee this as the tipping point that will turn generations of the world against us and bankrupt the government , which is of course the plan. If the neocons succeed with this, there will be no $ for social programs or the park system or education or anything except for war.

Their dream come true
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. That's an excellent analysis, Tom Rinaldo. Are you really Wes Clark?
I was happy to see Wes Clark as the new MSNBC military analyst on Keith Olbermann show yesterday. Clark has a good grasp of the strategic issues involving the Middle East and Wesr Asia, and he would have done an analysis similar to yours.

Remember, the neocons believe the only alternative to having this war is the certain crash of the American Empire.

This is a world view that the neocons share with the Marxists: capitalism is in crisis! The neocons fear capitalism's collapse, socialists eagerly welcome it.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I just listen to him a whole lot
And when Wes Clark started warning about this looming catastrophe, I figured it was past time for me to take it seriously too. And the neocons aren't in the slightest bit shy about their continuing plans for the Middle East if anyone bothers to pay attention to what they are saying also.

There is this for example:

Published November 1, 2006
TO: My Fellow Neoconservatives
FROM: Joshua Muravchik
RE: How to Save the Neocons

“…Prepare to Bomb Iran. Make no mistake, President Bush will need to bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities before leaving office. It is all but inconceivable that Iran will accept any peaceful inducements to abandon its drive for the bomb. Its rulers are religio-ideological fanatics who will not trade what they believe is their birthright to great power status for a mess of pottage. Even if things in Iraq get better, a nuclear-armed Iran will negate any progress there. Nothing will embolden terrorists and jihadists more than a nuclear-armed Iran.

The global thunder against Bush when he pulls the trigger will be deafening, and it will have many echoes at home. It will be an injection of steroids for organizations such as MoveOn.org. We need to pave the way intellectually now and be prepared to defend the action when it comes. In particular, we need to help people envision what the world would look like with a nuclear-armed Iran. Apart from the dangers of a direct attack on Israel or a suitcase bomb in Washington, it would mean the end of the global nonproliferation regime and the beginning of Iranian dominance in the Middle East.”
http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.25086/pub_detail.asp
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Based on the AEI article you posted, we can expect neocons to use PATRIOT against Iran war opponents
We must share this with our fellow DUers. Nothing like neocon munchies to get the blood pressure going:

This defense should be global in scope. There is a crying need in today’s ideological wars for something akin to the Congress for Cultural Freedom of the Cold War, a global circle of intellectuals and public figures who share a devotion to democracy. The leaders of this movement might include Tony Blair, Vaclav Havel, and Anwar Ibrahim.

Recruit Joe Lieberman for 2008. Twice in the last quarter-century we had the good fortune to see presidents elected who were sympathetic to our understanding of the world. In 2008, we will have a lot on the line. The policies that we have championed will remain unfinished. The war on terror will still have a long way to go. The Democrats have already shown that they are incurably addicted to appeasement, while the “realists” among the GOP are hoping to undo the legacy of George W. Bush. Sen. John McCain and former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani both look like the kind of leaders who could prosecute the war on terror vigorously and with the kind of innovative thought that realists hate and our country needs. As for vice presidential candidates, how about Condoleezza Rice or even Joe Lieberman? Lieberman says he’s still a Democrat. But there is no place for him in that party. Like every one of us, he is a refugee. He’s already endured the rigors of running for the White House. In 2008, he deserves another chance--this time with a worthier running mate than Al Gore.

http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.25086/pub_detail.asp

Words like "freedom" and "democracy" have been turned into obscenities when coming from neocon lips.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Well, they illegally used money committed to Afghanistan
to start funding the massacre in Iraq.

Huge amounts of money missing from the Iraq funding.


Just a thought.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
39. Off budget, like usual. Duh. n/t
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. What in God's name is she doing?
Has she lost her friggin' MIND? She's no longer a disappointment, she's a farkin' DISASTER. Every time I think I'm about able to call some of these Congresspeople without blowing a fuse, something else happens that makes me go all incoherent even THINKING about calling them to complain about what they're NOT doing -- and what they are doing.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Should we really be surprised to see Hillary sharing a bed with Bibi Netanyahu and Fred Thompson?
Anyone that read her bellicose speech to AIPAC in which she said "all options are on the table" on Iran, should not be surprised that a President Hillary would pursue the same goals in the Middle East as Bush's neocons.

Why do you think Hillary only questions the "management" of the war in Iraq, rather than the morality and legality of the war itself?
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. What's Hillary got to do with it? This thread is about the House,
and its leader is Nancy Pelosi.

I take rather strong exception to your imagery, too. There's enough sexism in this world that a subject line that skates that close to being really vile (giving you a HUGE benefit of the doubt) is really offensive, no matter how much I can't stand Hillary.

Otherwise I agree with you -- about Hillary.
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. This may be pertinent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3332312

Just saw this info on a comment, and have been following up the links.

Seems to fit in quite well.

Bloody frightening.
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