tangling with Hillary Clinton comes at a painful price

[wyldwolf]

Lest any of the Democratic candidates forget, tangling with Hillary Clinton comes at a painful price.

That, in short, was the message her campaign sent this week to Mrs. Clinton’s rivals after her rapid-response press operation rapidly humiliated Barack Obama, her closest competitor for the Democratic nomination, by turning his own campaign’s attacks against him.

By obtaining and then leaking to The New York Times a not-for-attribution opposition-research memo that the Obama campaign had distributed to reporters, Mrs. Clinton’s press office forced several public apologies from Mr. Obama and his campaign, all without Mrs. Clinton so much as publicly mentioning the memo or breaking stride as she fund-raised in Texas, Oklahoma and New York.

“They were reminders, rather than lessons,” said Jim Jordan, an advisor to Chris Dodd who ran the early stages of John Kerry’s Presidential campaign. “First, the Clinton campaign has an absolutely first-rate and very aggressive press operation.”

“I think her campaign is the best organized, most disciplined and effective Democratic campaign I have ever seen,” said Charlie Cook, an independent political analyst and editor of The Cook Political Report. “If you are running against her, your assumption ought to be that they aren’t going to miss anything. And anything they don’t whack you back on is because they decided for some strategic or tactical reason not to.”

Former rivals of Mrs. Clinton, reduced to road kill under the wheels of her fund-raising and press machine, watched the whole situation with a sense of bemusement.

“The Clinton campaign is well-practiced at playing victim—if there is anyone out there who is known for their oppo-research, it is Clinton,” said Rob Ryan, the former spokesman for the Republican former mayor of Yonkers, John Spencer. Last year, Mr. Spencer unsuccessfully challenged Mrs. Clinton in the Senate race, during which time Mrs. Clinton’s chief spokesman and senior strategist, Mr. Wolfson, repeatedly (and successfully) characterized him as a madman.

http://www.observer.com/2007/hillary-s-mean-machine-scores-hit

Can't wait to see this unleashed on the GOP if she wins the Demnom.

[w4rma]

1. This is the Republican view of her, btw. The "powerful" and corrupt Clintonista machine. (nt)

[liberal N proud]

11. But that powerful hard hitting machine they see just may be what is needed

to insure they don't steal another election.

Still not my no 1 choice but if we have to take the republicon party down, then we take her over them any day.

[KurtNYC]

27. where does it say "corrupt" ?

I see "disciplined" and "effective" etc but nothing that even implies corruption.

It seems to be more on our side of the aisle that people think that hitting back at your opponents is an exclusively Republican tactic -- it shouldn't be.

Bill Clinton said "every time they attack you it gives you a chance to get your message out." Which IMHO are words to live by and win by.

[madrchsod]

2. i`m still trying to figure out why obama`s camp caved in.

if she does this to those who question her or her motives what makes her any different than the last 8 yrs of this -kind- of bullshit ?

[Capn Sunshine]

37. simple

we didn't see any upside in a pissing match with HRC's people. Those folks are so tweaky that they would divert a lot of resourses for weeks to no good end.

Better to devote more time in S Carolina, where we are leading in the polls, and Iowa, where it's a tossup.

The Melrose Place thing died in the 90's but a lot of HRC's people don't know this.

[Tellurian]

39. delete..

[zulchzulu]

98. The memo's contents will indeed pay another little visit to the Clinton Team

If I were them, it would be time to buy some extra sandbags...

[madrchsod]

136. never trust a young republican from the burbs...

no thanks....i went to school with girls like her.

[madrchsod]

135. melrose place---ouch!

[SaveElmer]

3. And here are the women running the operation...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/20/AR2007062002567.html?hpid=topnews

The seasoned Hill aide knew what she was getting into when she agreed to become Hillary Clinton's chief of staff. The woman was quite prepared for all eyes to be on the biggest celebrity arriving in Congress, the first lady of the United States, who was expected to use her Senate seat as a springboard back into the White House.

But what caught Tamera Luzzatto unawares was the full force of the Hillary machine already in place and making decisions.

...

Fifteen years after Clinton first brought these women together at the White House, the "board" has officially reconvened to help map her unprecedented effort to follow in her husband's footsteps. They are acutely aware their work is making history. Once seen as a tight little sorority, today the group -- happily self-described as "Hillaryland"-- is at the center of a front-running presidential campaign. Never have so many women operated at such a high level in one campaign, working with a discipline and a loyalty and a legendary secrecy rarely seen at this level of American politics.

more at link

[wyldwolf]

16. Hell Hath No Fury...

[Tellurian]

47. no, thats not it! The end game...

women bonded together through thick and thin, against all comers, prevail.

Big Dog? Couldn't be happier surrounding himself with loyal surrogates.

Dancing in the Oval Office, on a new dk blue oval rug, emblazoned with the Presidential Seal.

[durrrty libby]

17. Now there is a group from my gender I would be proud to know

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Tellurian]

40. Hey, me TOO!

what am I, Chopped liver?

even a ghosty ghost, standing in the background with a question mark in the outline is ok by me...

[Dhalgren]

4. Is there any doubt that she will win the "Demnom"?

I don't see the media trying to do to her what they did to Dean in '04 and her operation seems to be better controlled than Kerry's was. Her corporate support appears to be very tight. And most of the "Party Bosses" are coming into line with her. I don't see how she can lose, at this point.

[hippiechick]

6. ... she can if those of us who dislike her, show up and stand up.

n/t

[Dhalgren]

8. I am going to "stand up and show up". I am not a Clinton supporter.

But how do you combat the polls that show her leading so handily? You cannot even discuss policy objections with her supporters without getting all but cussed-out. Clinton supporters have begun to speak to non-supporters in a very condescending way, as though they have already won. What I am saying is that how can she be beaten, if this trend continues?

[durrrty libby]

19. There is no discussing with Hillary Haters. They are rude, obnoxious

boo-birds with no manners or class

They are disgusting left-wing loons and the mirror
image of far-right wing-nuts.

I was not a staunch Hillary supporter, but these

arrogant jerks make me want to defend her more and dismiss them

out of hand.

[Forkboy]

21. too funny

[Dhalgren]

31. So you make a distinction between those who simply do not support

Senator Clinton's election bid and those whom you perceive as "haters"? Because, you would agree, one might be against Senator Clinton's election and, yet, still not hate her. We can, after all, oppose, politically, without hatred...

[durrrty libby]

32. Well of course a distinction can be made. Unfortunately, the

hysterical haters have made the atmosphere poisonous

Hillary is treated with more vile bile than W.

As a democrat that is unacceptable to me.

I will not tolerate their behavior, and will call them out on it

[assclown_bush]

113. Wow!!! This is the thread I have been looking for...

I agree with you 100%. I have spent the last day swatting away at nasty posts by the most mean spirited Hillary Haterz on the planet. I haven't read so much anti-Hillary filth since Yahoo removed it's message boards. Who needs to go snooping around fr**perz to read what the neo-cons have to spout when one can find so much hatred right here? Only here it's done by other Democrats.:shrug:

[SaveElmer]

10. Shouldn't be hard...judging by her approval numbers....

Showing overwhelming popularity with rank and file Democrats...most of those who dislike her...are probably here...

[ellisonz]

101. I think you mean name ID.

Because at this point, that's what it mostly constitutes...right now the money race is more important than poll numbers. The important things is to keep other candidates out by a show of force, because if Al Gore or Wes Clark get in the race Hillary is in deep doo-doo.

[asjr]

9. Whether one likes or dislikes Hillary she

sounds like a leader to me. That is what I want--a leader. Male or female.

[Dhalgren]

12. I will only follow a leader with whom I agree with on basic principles.

Senator Clinton and I do not agree on basic principles, therefore I cannot support her. There are many examples of good or even great leaders that I would not follow...

[populistdriven]

58. Is there any doubt that she will lose to the Repukes?

Her nomination is the greatest gift we could hand to the RNC.

But if nominated, I hope she wins.

[hippiechick]

5. Yippie, just what the country needs ...

... more "battles of the evil PR bastards". :eyes:

Can't we just solve some of the monstrous friggin' problems this country faces, please?

[churchofreality]

25. You can't get things done unless you fight back when attacked

Otherwise all you do is play defense.

[loudsue]

7. If Clinton was going to use these tactics against the republicans,

she would have already done it. The problem is, it's the republicans that are helping her candidacy. From her campaign "heavies" to "the press", she has republican operatives working throughout her campaign. Naturally, they're going to use the tactics they're best at. It's just obvious that the war room is only there to kill off the Democrats that oppose her.

:kick:

[wyldwolf]

14. She already has. In the Clinton Whitehouse and in her Senate campaigns

[zulchzulu]

34. Clintons fought back and we got 1994 Repigs with the Newtster

Perhaps a little history lesson can help remind you how Newt Gingrich and his lovely little Contract For America came on in 1994 due to Clinton fumbles, foibles and fuckups...

Then there's the Telecommunications Act...

[wyldwolf]

35. perhaps it is YOU who needs the history lesson

Perhaps a little history lesson can help remind you how Newt Gingrich and his lovely little Contract For America came on in 1994 due to Clinton fumbles, foibles and fuckups...

Links? Sources? No?

[karynnj]

45. Are you seriously looking for a link on the seats lost in 1994

In the Senate: Going into the 1994 election, the Democrats controlled 56 seats, after the election 48. They lost more seats in 1996 - resulting in the Democrats having 45 seats. 1998 was a wash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_1994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_1996
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_1998

In the House: Going into the 1994 election, the Democrats controlled Congress - they lost 54 seats, giving the Republicans control. THey gained back only 8 seats in 1996. They gained back another 12 in 1998, with the Republicans still in control.

This does all agree with what the poster said. Bill Clinton may have been good for Bill Clinton - but he took over comfortably in control of both houses and lost both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._House_election%2C_1994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections%2C_1996
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections%2C_1998

[wyldwolf]

46. do you seriously believe that is what I asked for?

I swear, it is always the same. Some "progressive" repeats the myth that Clinton and/or the DLC "lost" Congress in 1994 and when I ask for confirmation, the "progressive" acts amazed and shows me links that Democrats were knocked out in '94.

No, dear, links that show it was the DLC and/or Clinton that CAUSED it.

[zulchzulu]

51. The "myth" that Congress went to the Repigs in 1994???

You can't spin the truth.

If Clinton was doing so well, why the complete change to the Repigs in 1994, thus laying down the architecture for Chimpy's destructive administration...

[wyldwolf]

53. no, the myth that Clinton CAUSED it. How many times do I have to say that?

[zulchzulu]

67. Was Clinton popular in 1994, but people just wanted to vote for Repigs?

Sure.... :crazy:

[rinsd]

79. Still no response to the Congressional scandals?

And did you have a problem with Clinton raising taxes on the rich of the AWB because these were things the GOP bludgeoned him with?

[zulchzulu]

81. Um...yes, there were ALSO Congressional scandals...

I guess that means that Bill Clinton gets a free pass...

:crazy:

[rinsd]

88. I can give a dozen reasons for 1994.

Some of them rest on Clinton's head, most do not.

You're the one repeating that the loss in 1994 was due to his failures.

[zulchzulu]

94. Those same reasons for failure would be the same in 2008...

...if another Clinton gets the nod. But I'm not worried...she won't.

:kick:

[wyldwolf]

84. typical black and white thinking

I do see how progressives, time and time again, argue this point from false cause: assuming that because two things happened, the first one caused the second one.

What you can never show, in your example, exactly HOW those things led to the "Republican revolution." You simply overlook the fact that Democrats lost House seats and the Senate control in 1980 and lost house seats in 1990 and gained them in '96 and '98. You overlook the ideological realignment of the parties in the 70s and 80s brought on by Nixon's southern strategy. You overlook the fact that '94 was the year the religious right made the most inroads into the south after working on it for at least a decade and that the south was were the bulk of the losses in '94 occurred. You overlook the ethical scandals of the Democratic-led Congress of the 70s, 80s, up to '94 and how the GOP exploited them before a hapless Democratic controlled congress that had been in power for decades. You overlook that the unpopular Clinton initiatives were actually old liberal ideas that the left had been trying to get traction on for decades.

You overlook these and a lot of other thing. Or maybe you don't overlook them. You just never knew them and the extreme nuances of electoral politics is simply to complicated for the black and white thinking of a typical "progressive."

[rinsd]

89. "unpopular Clinton initiatives were actually old liberal ideas"

Yes sensible gun control and raising taxes on the rich are something to be looked down upon I guess.

[wyldwolf]

100. yes, sad but true

In a nutshell, "progressive" are pissed at Clinton for being a progressive.

[rinsd]

104. Even more so, they are arguing his actions hurt the party.

Which is ironic from a crowd that usually wants to go in both barrels blazing, principle over triangulation and all that jazz.

[ellisonz]

107. Too funny.

:rofl:

Follow the money:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/donordems.asp?filter=A&sortby=4
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=K02

[wyldwolf]

108. iin a discussion on Bill Clinton pre-1994, why give links about 2008?

:rofl:

try to follow ellisonz's logic... if you can.

[ellisonz]

116. DLC = Bought and paid for by lobbyists and corporate types.

That is not what the Democratic party stands for.

:thumbsdown:

[wyldwolf]

124. Show me the 1992 links

[ellisonz]

131. LOL.

I'm going to the gym.

:freak:

[wyldwolf]

133. you should. Go work off some of that frustration

[ellisonz]

138. Yeah, frustrated with the state of my nation.

Back at you...maybe you should consider going outdoors?

Just sayin. :o

[zulchzulu]

99. If you ignore my posts, you won't see my point...

If you want to give BIll Clinton a free pass with blinders on, go ahead. The rest of us know the real story...

[wyldwolf]

103. You posts are the equivalent of saying the sun goes down because we've turned on the street lights.

[zulchzulu]

111. Wow. You are like so freakin' clever....

Yo momma is a...eh...nevermind.

[wyldwolf]

125. Yes. Thank you.

[rinsd]

63. Since you like Wiki, here's a history lesson on the Congressional Post Office scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rostenkowski

Rostenkowski's downfall in 1994 was portrayed by Republicans as emblematic of Democratic corruption. The scandal helped fuel the Republican victory in the House, led by Newt Gingrich and his Contract with America. "The rise and fall of Dan Rostenkowski tracks the rise and fall of Democrats in the House," concludes Richard E. Cohen in his book on Rostenkowski <2> . "It is a story of power, accomplishments, and, ultimately, failure and humiliation."

[zulchzulu]

48. So what happened in the 1994 election cycle? Can ya guess?

Here's a start:

"The U.S. House election, 1994 was an election for the United States House of Representatives on November 8, 1994, in the middle of President Bill Clinton's first term. As a result of a 54-seat swing in membership from Democrats to Republicans, the Republican Party gained a majority of seats in the House for the first time since 1954."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections,_1994

That was the beginning of completely putting Clinton in a corner...granted he was cheating on his wife in a corner of the White House too...but yunno...

This bunk that the Clintons "always win" means they sell out at our expense.

As a reminder, any news on the Clinton Team debunking the sources and facts about their involvement in outsourcing to India yet?

Didn't think so...

[wyldwolf]

50. read post #46 then come back with a better reply.

[zulchzulu]

52. It's pointless to show you actual facts...need more sand to bury your head in?

Please debunk how Gingrich and the Repigs didn't win big in 1994 due to the Clinton family screwups...

[wyldwolf]

55. so, in other words, you can only repeat leftwing truthiness. You folks are always...

...caught off guard when someone challenges your cherished, though factually inaccurate, charge that Clinton and the DLC caused the '94 disaster. So, prove your assertion.

[zulchzulu]

65. Perhaps you have difficulty understanding very basic political trending

Some things that happened in 1994 while Bill Clinton was president:

- 54-seat swing from Democrats to Republicans
- Every Republican incumbent seeking re-election won while 34 incumbent Democrats were defeated
- Republicans' net gain of 12 governor's seats
- Gingrich brought in his Contract For America agenda

Reasons for the massive change had a LOT to do with Clinton's unpopularity, the sorry attempt at universal healthcare, the fact that Clinton has not liked by Catholics and the military, starting off the term with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and other issues that turned many to turn to the Republicans.

I'm absolutely convinced that the same wipeout of Democratic gains in 2006 will happen in 2008 if Senator Clinton is the nominee. Just as Bill Clinton helped bring in a Democratic bloodbath in 1994, his wife would do the same.

[wyldwolf]

82. I know when someone asks for proof of something, you either provide it our admit you don't have it

I do see how progressives, time and time again, argue this point from false cause: assuming that because two things happened, the first one caused the second one.

What you can never show, in your example, exactly HOW those things led to the "Republican revolution." You simply overlook the fact that Democrats lost House seats and the Senate control in 1980 and lost house seats in 1990 and gained them in '96 and '98. You overlook the ideological realignment of the parties in the 70s and 80s brought on by Nixon's southern strategy. You overlook the fact that '94 was the year the religious right made the most inroads into the south after working on it for at least a decade and that the south was were the bulk of the losses in '94 occurred. You overlook the ethical scandals of the Democratic-led Congress of the 70s, 80s, up to '94 and how the GOP exploited them before a hapless Democratic controlled congress that had been in power for decades. You overlook that the unpopular Clinton initiatives were actually old liberal ideas that the left had been trying to get traction on for decades.

You overlook these and a lot of other thing. Or maybe you don't overlook them. You just never knew them and the extreme nuances of electoral politics is simply to complicated for the black and white thinking of a typical "progressive."

[zulchzulu]

117. So my points are completely invalid?

Perhaps I need to write a long post for you to not read... I thought I simplified it for you.

Answer this with just a yes or no. Here's the question...ready?

Was Bill and Hillary Clinton at least partially responsible for the dramatic 1994 Democratic losses, thus bringing in years of Republican rule and the Contract For America, set by Newt Gingrich?

Yes... or... no.

[wyldwolf]

126. what points have you made?

oh, yes, quote: "Newt Gingrich and his lovely little Contract For America came on in 1994 due to Clinton fumbles, foibles and fuckups..."

Nope. What you call Clinton fumbles, foibles and fuckups was him trying to appease the "progressive" wing of the party. He should have went right for welfare reform and scored major points with the public.

[Hart2008]

122. You forgot the House Speaker was defeated for the first time since the Civil War...

and the first Democratic loss of the House of Representatives in 40 years!!

Unlike other presidents who suffered set backs in mid-term elections, Democrats never regained control of either house of Congress under Clinton...

But what is worse is that they didn't care!

It didn't really bother them did it?

They were very comfortable working with Republicans.

Why?

Their money comes from the same corporate masters.

[rinsd]

60. Please prove that they won because of Clinton family screwups

Its amazing how many Democrats forget what happened in 1994.

They forget the Assault Weapons Ban(and yes Clinton is responsible for that), the Congressional Banking Scandal, the Congressional Post Office scandal.

The GOP ran an on message campaign promising an end to corruption and promising term limits. After decades of Democratic rule, the American people foolishly gave them a shot.

I also notice you ignore net gains in Congress every election afterwards until 2002.

[SaveElmer]

61. Including 1998...

When for the first time in decades the party in the White House gained seats in an off year election...and oh btw, effectively drove Newty boy out of the House

[BeyondGeography]

70. And yet, Bill Clinton left the party weaker than ever when it was all said and done

NYT: You criticize Bill Clinton in your book as an illustration of the painful limitations of charisma.

Sen. Bill Bradley: Bill Clinton was the first two-term Democratic president since F.D.R. and was enormously popular — and yet at the end of eight years in office, there were fewer Democratic senators, fewer Democratic congressmen, fewer Democratic governors, fewer state legislators, and the party was in debt. You can be regarded as a charismatic president, and yet it doesn’t translate into structure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/magazine/25WWLNQ4.t.html?ex=1182571200&en=563985da1c5cf7a2&ei=5070

[SaveElmer]

73. Well I know this has been asked for time and time again...

But show evidence that this was Bill Clinton's fault. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to show that it was the institutional corruption of the Congressional Democratic Party at the time, that led to their own demise...

[BeyondGeography]

74. Well, clearly, Sen. Bradley thinks a healthy portion of the blame

goes to your hero. But what does he know compared with Elmer and The Wolf?

Something tells me if the situation were reversed and we had more of everything when Clinton left (congressmen, Senators, governors, money in the bank) all credit would be going to the Clintons in your book.

[SaveElmer]

75. Gee, so the new standard is...

If a politician says it...it must be true?

Wouldn't that shut down DU?

[BeyondGeography]

78. So Clinton was GOOD for the Democratic Party?

How, then, should that be measured if not in terms of congressional seats, Senators, governors and overall financial health? Because, if them's the measurements, they were very bad news indeed.

[wyldwolf]

85. How about a the first twice elected Democrat since FDR?

There is infinitely more evidence to suggest the leftwing was bad for the party and two decades of ideological realignment based on the public's disapproval of a liberal agenda and congressional corruption came to a head in 1994.

[BeyondGeography]

90. He played the ideological game beautifully

and he had once-in-a-lifetime communication skills, which he retains. One could argue that the country was at its core more conservative in nature than liberal in the 90's, although the landscape has shifted somewhat in our direction since, IMHO. This may explain in part the unnatural hatred that the Clintons inspired (how could we lose to THEM). However, his inability to control himself exacted an awful price on the party. It allowed the right to play the morals game and keep the national conversation on their playing field. It also may have fatally compromised Gore's 2000 run. He should have been able to do what Bush did in '88 and say to the public, "why go in a different direction when things are going well?" Instead, well, you know the rest...

[wyldwolf]

102. with the left and the right, it always comes back to Clinton's sex life.

:eyes:

[BeyondGeography]

137. And for the unquestioning Clinton personality slaves

it's the truth that dare not speak its name.

[wyldwolf]

140. actually, it's the "truthiness." There is no evidence to support your contention

[rinsd]

86. So presidencies should be measured on those criteria?

"How, then, should that be measured if not in terms of congressional seats, Senators, governors and overall financial health?"

Overall financial health during the Clinton years saw the Democrats goin toe to toe with the GOP in terms of fundraising.

And debt? The party has always been in debt. In fact the 1st time in its history it got out of debt was during the, much reviled at DU, Terry McAuliffe's reign at the DNC.

[SaveElmer]

91. Gee lets see...

Do I think record breaking economic growth, a balanced budget, less poverty, less crime, more national parks, peace in Northern Ireland, and prevention of genocide in Kosovo are good for the Democratic Party?

Yes I do...

[BeyondGeography]

92. You're right, that's why we won in a landslide in 2000

[SaveElmer]

93. Had Gore embraced the Clinton successes...

Of which he was a legitimate part, instead of running away from them...we would have

[zulchzulu]

118. By 2000, Bill Clinton was what you politically call "radioactive"

Who wanted him on the podium next to him in 2000? Anybody?

[wyldwolf]

127. with an approval rating in the high 60s. Yep (snicker) radioactive.

[SaveElmer]

141. Bill Clinton had an approval rating north of 65% in 2000...

Hardly radioactive...

Gore made a serious tactical error running away from the CLinton success

[wyldwolf]

83. not just a politician, but a jaded one who lost to Al Gore.

[rinsd]

77. I like Bradley but he happens to be wrong in this case.

He like yourself ignores various scandlas that had an outsized role, the rise of Fox and Rush Limbaugh and dozens of other factors that combined together.

But I guess if you're at the top you get scorn or credit for things that happen under your watch.

"Something tells me if the situation were reversed and we had more of everything when Clinton left (congressmen, Senators, governors, money in the bank) all credit would be going to the Clintons in your book."

Ok so will you give the DLC credit for getting the party out of debt and outraising the GOP for the 1st time in 30 years?

[rinsd]

76. Left the party weaker than ever?

I would say 1994 was their weakest moment.

"the party was in debt."

The party was almost always in debt. It finally got out of debt thanks to the fundraising effort of favorite whipping boy Terry MacAuliffe.

[SaveElmer]

54. You keep trying...

But they can never come up with anything...

They have to rely on the "it's well known" mantra...the definition of truthiness I think...

[wyldwolf]

56. you're right. They NEVER come up with anything.

[zulchzulu]

120. Ignorance certainly must be bliss for some

The evidence is staring at you and you have that special talent to feel like it doesn't exist.

[wyldwolf]

128. this guy is still talking about evidence he refuses to show! LOL!

[rinsd]

64. How about 1995 in the government showdown.....

[Tellurian]

38. Poobah! It's the Primary, we're not running against Rethugs yet..

Hillary has staked out her territory as the Dem nominee. If her rivals what to challenge her supremecy..Let it rip!

And we'll see who's left standing..IOW- Bring IT!

[zulchzulu]

49. Any Clinton Team info on debunking the India outsourcing info?

(sound of crickets)

[Tellurian]

57. you're a nervous nellie...

and I don't blame you for being nervous.

you're backing the wrong horse in this election..and you don't know how to opt out.

[zulchzulu]

68. ..and you're out of ammo...

No debunking of the truth that the Clintons are knee-deep in getting rich off of outsourcing?

I don't want to make you cry...never mind. It will all just go away...

[Tellurian]

87. are you serious?

Obama is a myth...a mystery man, a creation of the puppet masters, who will control him if he's elected..

No chance, zulu buddy, is this 'sham of a man' going to occupy the WH!

wake up, and stop fooling yourself into believing otherwise!

[zulchzulu]

95. Ah yes... I have a funny story about today...

We have a new intern at our place of business, straight-A 4.0 grad with a degree in PoliSci. I was talking about how she feels about the 2008 race and she said, and I kid you not, first thing, "no way for Hillary"... she was looking at Edwards and Obama... I asked her if she knew ANYONE who was for Clinton and she shrugged.

She wants a woman President someday, just not you know who...

As for your masturbatory comment about how Obama is a "myth", you truly deserve an award for the stupidest comment I've seen you make here on DU. Good job...

[Tellurian]

110. Childish thinking is not synonymous with funny...

"We have a new intern at our place of business,
She wants a woman President someday, just not you know who."

Understandable...maybe, when 'she's' a woman, she can identify with a female president. For now, we choose not waiting for her to mature and for that matter, the would be president, Obama to be road tested for bugs!

Girls and boys are not the demographic that are going to swing this vote. So, don't count on them as your base of support. Some will be committed, others will say they will, but won't be bothered when the time comes to stand up.

If thats all the flimsy masturbatory proof you can provide, reinforcing Obama's credibility as a proven non-myth; is a kid, a 4.0 grad with a degree in PoliSci. I've got some Swamp Land in Florida to sell you; seeing you're such an easy mark for 4.0 grads in PoliSci. Theres 10 of them I know, as long as they're gainfully employed and sure of a weekly pay check! They're there!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[zulchzulu]

112. Well, gee..suddenly I like Senator Clinton after that comment...

Wow..you sure are convincing... yeah, screw the young voters. Yeah, the ones against a Clinton nomination are jus' stooopit... As for you disbelieving (I think from your muddled comment) that this person exists and/or is a 4.0 grad in PoliSci, good for you...

Just as proof that Clinton was at least partially responsible for the 1994 drubbing of Democrats is not something you care to indulge in, then anything else not within your thin scope of reality must be deemed nonsense from some alternative galaxy...

:crazy:

[Tellurian]

123. yeah, I know-

I just reread the latest postings on this thread between Wyldwolf and yourself, the mighty(in your own mind) zulu. You have yet to win one round of an argument. Doesn't speak too well of how your mean spirited, condescending, mind operates, does it?

So, it's apparent you're only backing Obama because you think by doing so, you can stick it to the Clintons to satisfy some sick notion he was responsible for a takeover of Congress by the GOP.. Even if you were half right, which is delusional, where was Kerry on election night? Too bad the old geezer didn't stand up and be counted and fight for us like he promised, oh, so, many times. Every other democrat made it through- Where was Kerry? Waving a white flag on his balcony, conceding to Bush..

That, my friend, is unforgivable, and something that should be sticking in your craw like an abscessed tooth! (as it most likely is!)

[Kingstree]

13. You will have a long wait because she will not win.

[paulk]

15. what a deep and thoughtful post

you lay out your argument so well....

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

23. Hillary won't win, this I know... for the Bible tells me so...

[emilyg]

29. What?????????

[wyldwolf]

30. How else would Kingtree know what he professes in post 13?

[beachmom]

18. Jim Jordan is working for Chris Dodd? That is unfortunate.

Um, hate to tell you, but most people don't know this story. Obama is still quite popular in my neck of the woods. Hillary? Not so much. Still, her chances look good to win the primary at this point. I hope that changes.

[illinoisprogressive]

20. Obama said at the forum he likes to mix it up - Hillary doesn't scare him at all.

He will find a way to pour sugar in the engine of her little machine and watch it fall all apart.

[durrrty libby]

22. Sugar doesn't hurt engines. That is old wives' tale nonsense.

[wyldwolf]

24. As with many grand schemes, it lives more vividly in its imagining than in reality.

...just like "progressive" politics.

[churchofreality]

26. You are so annoying nt

[durrrty libby]

28. So are love-bugs, fruit flies and cockroaches.

[zulchzulu]

33. Does the Clinton Team have time to debunk the outsourcing info?

I don't see it anywhere on the web site, except that they outsourced the theme song to a Canadian...

:crazy:

[ShortnFiery]

36. Wait a minute, I have to catch my breath.

:rofl:

[wyldwolf]

41. your hero:

Time Magazine said of him:

A catalog of contradictions: Liberal, moderate, conservative, compassionate, ruthless, soft, tough, a charlatan, a true believer, a defender of the status quo, a populist Hamlet... A Democrat who thinks like a Republican... he also considers himself a fiscal conservative...

Other facts concerning him:

A former State Senator, he was elected Governor by running to the right of the other Democratic candidates. "I was never a liberal," he told state voters that year. "I am and have always been a conservative."

He campaigned against school busing.

A supporter of the Viet Nam war, as Governor he declared "American Fighting Man's Day" in support of Lt. William Calley after his court martial on charges of massacring civilians.

At the 1972 Democratic convention, he was a delegate for Henry "Scoop" Jackson's (said by some to be the father of the DLC) presidential campaign, and he worked with Al From of the DLC on economic issues as well.

One of his campaigns was endorsed by Pat Robertson, who aired a profile of him on the 700 Club.

[SaveElmer]

42. Oh...and....

He supported NAFTA...even appearing at a White House event with President's Ford, Bush I, and Clinton...

[zulchzulu]

97. Yeah, bash Carter while you're at it...sheesh...

You're just as divisive as your preferred candidate.

Should we talk about how Senator Clinton lied about how she was named Hillary by her mother? I can open the floodgates if you want. And it ain't pretty...

[wyldwolf]

106. ah, yes. The truth stings, doesn't it?

If you think Hillary's remark about her name rises to the level of supporting the Viet Nam war and honoring a war criminal, go right ahead.

[zulchzulu]

121. Is that Carter bashing stuff from a rightwing site..cuz we can post some Clinton stuff if ya want

There are terrabytes of the stuff...

[wyldwolf]

130. LOL! Can you refute the Carter information?

[ellisonz]

109. Do it! Do it! Do it!

It seems they mistake restraint for weakness.

[flpoljunkie]

43. NYT's Adam Nagourney said he "would have felt really creeped-out" about using this oppo.

Interesting that their chief political reporter feels this way. Too bad, the other reporters did not--instead playing into the Clinton campaign's hands. Perhaps Jim Jordan was on to something when he "argued that a “New York–centric” press corps has seemed absolutely eager to accommodate Mrs. Clinton’s spin."

Adam Nagourney, The Times’ chief political reporter, said that more than anything else, the situation of the leaked memos reflected the case-by-case basis and fluidity with which reporters need to judge what to do with the copious amounts of opposition research that rolls in from most campaigns nearly every morning.

“I did not have to deal with that situation. If I had, I would have felt really creeped-out,” said Mr. Nagourney about how The Times obtained the memos from the Clinton campaign. “In other words, if the Obama campaign had come to me and said, ‘Do you want this information?’, and I had said, ‘No,’ and the Clinton campaign came to me and said, ‘We have this information, do you want it so we can nail Obama for putting it out?’, I don’t know what I would have done.”

http://www.observer.com/2007/hillary-s-mean-machine-scores-hit

[wyldwolf]

44. as they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

[sandrakae]

59. It sounds to me like they are saying, she is the best at being a prick.

[SaveElmer]

62. If John Kerry had been more of a prick...

He might be President today...

[sandrakae]

69. I wouldn't argue that. I have often said he didn't become President because he was a gentleman.

[rinsd]

66. This isn't tiddlywinks.

If you want to beat the GOP Noise Machine you had better be prepared to cut thier balls off and wear them as a necklace.

[sandrakae]

72. interestingly put.

[The Backlash Cometh]

71. No offense, but, if I'm objective, I'd have to say that the Obama

campaign did a better job of coming across the phone lines with genuine interest. I wasn't in Obama's camp at first, but, now I can say that I don't see where Hillary's campaign is any different than all those that have come before.

[BenDavid]

80. Just goes to show that she

is a fighter. Will not take any crap as Gore and Kerry did. SHe already made the point that if your opponent attacks then hit back and knock em to the floor. I guess Obama got hit with a right hook and if he keeps farting around being critical of HRC and the Big Dawg, soon he will find his butt on the floor for the 10 count....Oh and I would say the shine is coming off Obama quick-like.....
I do thank you
Ben David

[zulchzulu]

96. What's a hoot is that the Clinton Team can't debunk what was on the memo...

...and the contents is going to haunt their campaign.

Senator Clinton can perhaps answer the evidence to her outsourcing profiteering as well as her impeached husband. I'm so over the Clinton Rehash Garbage...

[wyldwolf]

105. the hoot is they didn't need to.

[SaveElmer]

114. Been trying to change the subject on that memo for days...

No takers...

I can understand why...wants to get the conversation off the race baiting...and how amateurish the Obama campaign still is in many ways...

Hopefully they learned a lesson...Republicans would do alot more than just hand the thing over to the New York Times...

[zulchzulu]

119. Just as a friendly reminder, here are the contents of the memo to debunk...

If you think this stuff is just going to go away like a cheating husband gives flowers to his wife to make amends... clearly a convincing debunking of the contents of the memo might make it all just go away...

:rofl:

HILLARY CLINTON (D-PUNJAB)'S PERSONAL FINANCIAL AND POLITICAL TIES TO INDIA

The Clintons have reaped significant financial rewards from their relationship with the Indian community, both in their personal finances and Hillary's campaign fundraising. Hillary Clinton, who is the co-chair of the Senate India Caucus, has drawn criticism from anti-offshoring groups for her vocal support of Indian business and unwillingness to protect American jobs. Bill Clinton has invested tens of thousands of dollars in an Indian bill payment company, while Hillary Clinton has taken tens of thousands from companies that outsource jobs to India. Workers who have been laid off in upstate New York might not think that her recent joke that she could be elected to the Senate seat in Punjab is that funny.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY PERSONAL HOLDINGS 2006:

Bill Clinton Invested Tens of Thousands In An Indian Bill Payment Company. According to Hillary Clinton's personal financial disclosure form, as part his ownership of WJC Investments, LP LLC, Bill Clinton held between $15,001 and $50,000 worth of stock in Easy Bill Limited, an Indian company. According to the company's website, "Functioning as a one-stop bill payment shop, Easy Bill facilitates payment of utility bills as well as recharging of pre-paid mobile connections at a place the consumer is already familiar and comfortable with the neighbourhood store." In addition to providing terminals throughout India where customers may pay their bills, the company also maintains a call center described as "a dedicated response centre for efficient customer service." http://www.easybillindia.com />

2006: Bill Clinton Collected $300,000 From Cisco In 2006. Hillary's personal financial disclosure forms indicate that Bill Clinton gave two speeches to Cisco Systems, each for $150,000 on 5/18/06 and 8/17/06.

CAMPAIGN FUNDRAISING

Hillary Clinton Accepted Almost $60,000 In Contributions From Employees Of Cisco Systems, Which Laid Off American Workers to Hire Indian "Techies." Clinton's Presidential Exploratory Committee took $39,450 from Cisco employees during the first quarter of 2007. Cisco employees have also donated $18,900 to Clinton's Senate committee between 1999 and 2006. Forbes reported, in a feature called "A Tale of Two Cities" that Cisco was laying off $60,000-a-year "techies," while hiring new employees in Bangalore, India. "Cisco used only a few Infosys workers in Bangalore six years ago ; almost 300 contract staff, plus 550 full-fledged employees in its own Bangalore office." In 2006, Newsweek reported that "for Cisco, India is the new frontier, where it's investing $1.2 billion to build a gleaming R&D campus that will employ 3,000 people."

Clinton Donor, Sant Singh Chatwal, Cited Clinton's India Caucus Work Vowed To Raise $5 Million. In March 2007, the Economic Times wrote, " has roped in New York-based hotelier Sant Chatwal as co-chair of her recently formed presidential exploratory committee to run for the 2008 White House race. <…> He is also creating an organization called Indian Americans for Hillary 2008." In April 2007, Mangalorean reported that Indian Americans for Hillary 2008 (IAFH) had already raised $1 million and "aimed to raise at least five million dollars." A major fund raiser on June 24 hosted by Chatwal, the founder of IAFH; steel baron, Lakshmi Mittal, and businessman SP Hindujas, was expected to pull more than 1,000 guests. In June 2007, The New York Times reported that "two Indo-American receptions have a total of $450,000 in commitments." In the picture (right), Sen. Clinton speaks at a reception hosted to push forward the US-India nuclear deal while Sant Singh Chatwal listens carefully.

Chatwal Owed The City Of New York More Than $2 Million In Back Taxes, Fled Prosecution For Fraud But Was Arrested During Visit to India With Bill Clinton. Sant Singh Chatwal, who raised more $200,000 for Sen. Clinton in 2000, owed New York City $2.4 million in back property taxes. In addition, during a visit to India with Bill Clinton, in May 2001, Chatwal was arrested by authorities there and charged with defrauding the New York City branch of the Bank of India out of $9 million he borrowed in 1994. He posted bail, then fled India, boarding a flight to Vienna despite an attempt by authorities to detain him. .

FDIC Charged Chatwal With Obtaining Improper Loans. In a separate 1996 case, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. charged Chatwal with obtaining improper loans from the First New York Bank for Business, causing the bank to lose more than $25 million. Chatwal, who was a director of the bank, arranged more than $14 million in loans to himself and his businesses, often with no collateral, said the FDIC. He didn't repay the loans and the bank failed.

CLINTON AND THE SENATE INDIA CAUCUS

Clinton Co-Founded The Senate India Caucus, A Project Of The U.S. India Political Action Committee. In 2004, Clinton co-founded and became the co-chair of the Senate India Caucus which was coordinated by the U.S. India Political Action Committee (USINPAC). Roll Call reported, "The goals of the caucus, which already has 31 members, include increasing trade with India and improving security against global terrorism." Sen. Clinton said, "It is imperative that the Unites States do everything possible to reach out to India. This Caucus is dedicated to expanding areas of agreement with India and engaging in a candid dialogue of differences."

CLINTON WINS "WEASEL AWARD" FOR COMMENTS ON INDIA 2005:

Anti-Offshoring Advocacy Group Gave Sen. Clinton A "Weasel Award," Citing Pro-Outsourcing Comments Clinton Made In India. The Press Trust of India wrote, "An American anti-offshoring advocacy group has awarded its first ‘Weasel Award of 2005' to Democrat Senator Hillary Clinton for her recent remarks supporting outsourcing. The Delaware-based IT Professionals Association of America (ITPAA) representing over 1,200 IT professionals nationwide, said on its Web site that it presented this award to business and political leaders that it believes ‘betray the trust of the American people.' Scott Kirwin, founder of the organization claimed that people were ‘tired of Democrats pretending they care about the problems facing average Americans. Senator Clinton's actions prove they clearly do not.' The ITPAA based its award on press reports of Hilary Clinton supporting outsourcing and assuring political and business leaders in India that the US would not attempt to save the jobs lost. ‘Outsourcing will continue. There is no way to legislate against reality. We are not in favor of putting up fences.' Hillary had said on Feb 28 in India, according to a report by the Asia Times. Kirwin also cited her position as co-chair of the ‘Friends of India Caucus' in the Senate, a group of senators that supports issues important to India, including outsourcing and H-1B and L-1 visas, as another reason behind the ITPAA's decision to give the award to the prospective Democrat presidential nominee."

2/05: On India Trip, Clinton Allayed India's Fears That Outsourcing Would End. The India Review wrote, "Senator Clinton allayed apprehensions in India that there would be a bar on outsourcing. ‘There is no way to legislate against reality. Outsourcing will continue," she said.

Sen. Clinton (D-Punjab) Joked That She Was Senator From The Punjab Region In India. "At the fundraiser hosted by Dr Rajwant Singh at his Potomac, Maryland, home, and which raised nearly $50,000 for her re-election campaign, Clinton began by joking that, ‘'I can certainly run for the Senate seat in Punjab and win easily,' after being introduced by Singh as the Senator not only from New York but also Punjab."

CLINTON CLAIMS OUTSOURCING "WORKS BOTH WAYS…IT ACTUALLY BROUGHT JOBS TO BUFFALO."

Clinton Says "Outsourcing Does Work Both Ways." Crain's New York Business wrote, "Mrs. Clinton may be motivated by a desire to uphold the free trade legacy of the Clinton years. <…> In an appearance on CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, she boasted about attracting 10 jobs to New York from India-based Tata Consulting. When Mr. Dobbs inquired if she had understood the degree to which Tata, which helps U.S. companies outsource, was stealing American jobs, Mrs. Clinton rejoined: ‘They've actually brought jobs to Buffalo. Outsourcing does work both ways.'" In An Interview With Lou Dobbs, Senator Clinton Defended Her Support Of Tata Consulting, A Company That Brought Ten Jobs To Native Buffalo Residents But Destroyed Thousands Of Jobs Over The Years. Lou Dobbs asked Clinton, "Senator, a number of people pointed out to us, e-mailing us and calling us, saying, ask the senator about her helping Tata Consulting, a well-known outsourcer, open jobs -- and office in Buffalo, New York. I'm asking you, did you really understand the degree to which they were involved in outsourcing jobs when you were there?" Clinton replied, "Well, of course I know that they outsource jobs, that they've actually brought jobs to Buffalo. They've created 10 jobs in Buffalo and have told me and the Buffalo community that they intend to be a source of new jobs in the area, because, you know, outsourcing does work both ways." Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) Is Famous For Pioneering The Business Practice Of Off-shoring. The San Jose Mercury News wrote, "TCS, however, will go down in the annals of offshoring as the original high-tech body shop. Starting in the early 1990s, TCS blanketed the American landscape with legions of itinerant software programmers from India. <…> Tata pioneered an industry that eventually evolved into the dynamo of offshoring, or sending work to cheap labor markets overseas. <…> Tata's methods have not been popular among U.S. technology workers, however, who complain guest workers suppress local wages and offshoring takes good jobs overseas."

Tata's Buffalo, N.Y. Training Center Caters To The Needs Of The Company's 8,000 Employees In The United States, 80 Percent Of Whom Are Workers From India. India Abroad wrote, "At the Chrysalis Center TCS will host new employees in month-long training sessions to make them aware of the company's history and culture and to hone their core IT skills that will bridge existing knowledge with advanced skills necessary to work on innovative projects for customers." The center will also cater to the training needs of the more than 8,000 TCS employees across the US, 80 percent of whom are from India, according to Buffalo News. Gupta Said Democrats' Stand On Outsourcing Was Poll-Year Rhetoric. The Economic Times wrote, "Vinod ‘Vin' Gupta <…> also believes that the Democratic Party's stand on outsourcing is more poll year rhetoric than any serious economic policy statement. ‘We have to compete globally and US has to find the best product and services at the best cost. Tapping global resources will obviously make the US economy stronger,' says Gupta whose own company InfoUSA outsources both technology support and database work to vendors in India. Gupta, who has helped Hillary Clinton and Al Gore in fund-raising efforts for their campaigns, is now involved in fund raising efforts for Senator Kerry."

Clearly, using the ruse that the memo's contents was "racist" is about as valid as discussing how much money a candidate gets from AIPAC is "anti-semitic"... is discussing ANYTHING about a candidate's political contributions out of reach because it might upset some "group". Are discussions about contributions off the internet forbidden because it might upset those people without net access?

[assclown_bush]

115. K & R n/t

[NoPasaran]

129. This, more than anything else. has me leaning toward HRC

Our Democrats---all of them---are better than any of the sorry assortment of nutzoids and goofballs the repubs have on offer. I seriously don't think that the policy differences between our candidates really amount to a hill of beans. I want a candidate who can WIN and I suspect that HRC is the one best prepared to tear the lungs out of the rightwing propoganda machine.

[LWolf]

132. Hillary Clinton, the pitbull of the Democratic primary race.

:rofl:

I think dog fighting is highly unethical, myself.

[Jim Sagle]

134. Hogwash!

The media are whoring for Clinton to help her get the nomination. If she does, they'll gut her like a fish. (As they will any other Democratic candidate.)

[eridani]

139. Union busters and Rupert Murdoch are great at that n/t