A male french politician calls "bitch" a female opponent. Should he resign?

[demoleft]

It's not the first time. In my region a leftist local political leader was caught in a similar embarassing situation after defining women and gays in the worst words.
But he was spared the internet video streaming of his fall.

Not so for Patrick Devedjian, UMP senior leader in France, who was caught saying "salope", "That bitch!" to an opponent female colleague, centrist Anne-Marie Comparini. He was filmed and straightly sent on the internet.

Here is the video: http://www.vibleog.com/politique/65-patrick-devedjian-insulte-anne-marie-de-comparini/
Here is the BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6255474.stm

He regretted, he called the woman to apologize, he received the reprimenda by Sarkozy and female Justice Minister Rachida Dati.
The leftist leader in my region did the same.

Both are still there, doing politics, representing people, managing power.

Now my question is: according to you, are similar accidents reason enough to call for resignation? Why should a politician be allowed to say things which could cost any private person his own public dignity?

[Gman]

1. In America

a woman may smile and consider it a compliment if someone calls her a bitch. She may take it as an acknowledgement that she's tough and doing her job.

[MaineDem]

6. Consider it a compliment?

I highly doubt that.

[Gman]

11. It's true

I know many women that consider being called a bitch a compliment. I think there's some different interpretations of the word. Here, a bitch, among other definitions, is a woman that is tough and can stand the heat for something she does or does not do that affect other people. For example, it could be a woman that is a tough union negotiator that cannot be intimidated. The company would call her a bitch. She would smile. Or, a bitch could be a woman that confronts power and speaks truth. Those she's speaking to would call her a bitch. She would smile and say, "That's right! I won't take your crap!"

See what I mean.

[DemSoccerMom]

14. And therein lies the problem.

Women SHOULD NOT be made to feel that it is "OK" or "complimentary" to be called a bitch.

If I were to call a male colleague a bastard, I'm quite certain HE wouldn't take it as a compliment. So why the double-standard? Why is it OK, complimentary even, to call a woman a bitch because she is tough and doesn't take shit from others? Why not just call her a tough woman? Or better yet, HUMAN.

I'm not trying to start a flame war with you, I'm merely pointing out that the term bitch is NEVER complimentary. The fact that men (and women) use it as such is degrading.

[Gman]

36. I understand the basis for your thoughts

I guess the examples I mention are actually trying to turn what is intended to be a bad thing into something good. In other words, not letting the words get to her but turning it around on the person that called her a bitch.

[Igel]

52. I've taken being called a bastard to be a compliment.

Actually it wasn't just 'bastard', it was 'f**king bastard'. When I heard it, I knew that he tried to play hardball, but I scored a home run. It meant that the asst. vice-chancellor for student housing was sufficiently pissed off and embarrassed to have to not just take me seriously, but to make me happy.

There have been a few other times when I've been called a bastard and smiled. Actually, since I'm usually a fairly nice guy in person (the Internet brings out my snarly side), I don't think I've ever been unhappy being called a bastard.

[MaineDem]

19. Sorry, I disagree with you

The term has become accepted language in many circles. Not in any of my circles, however. And it's the connotations of the term that have become unacceptable to most women. I say "most" knowing that some women might not care one way or another.

It's impossible to know the feelings behind the speaker's use of the term. And a woman shouldn't have to stop and analyze all the different ways the term can be meant.

We should discourage the use of the term unless one is speaking of a female canine. The fact that so many people at a site such as DU are unable to see the damage that one word can do and accept its usage as "complimentary" surprises and disappoints me.

[Totally Committed]

8. So, what do you think would happen if Hillary referred to Bush as a "bastard"?

A "compliment"? Really?

TC

[Gman]

12. To Bush, it might be

As a union rep, I knew an upper level manager that would smile at you when you called him a son of a bitch.

[Totally Committed]

16. Yes, but literally "son of a bitch" is an insult to one's mother...

I wonder if his mother would mile if she heard it?

Regardless, we are in a country that has so many of our own LARGER AND MORE CONCRETE problems that we have no business telling other countries what is right or wrong. We shouldn't waste another moment worrying about this. For anyone who's ever been to France, they'll know what I mean when I say that French women can definitely handle this is they find it insulting. Trust me.

TC

[youngdem]

2. Personally, I am far more offended by our style of 'leadership'

Where it is considered impolite to call a fellow Congress-critter out on being a crook or an asshole.

Personally, I think perhaps the threat of public flogging and humiliation might motivate them to behave themselves, lest they get kicked around the chambers like a soccer ball.

I am tired of polite words for horrible deeds. It softens the offense.

If he thinks she's a bitch, go ahead and say it. If you are wrong, the public won't send you back.

By the way, if she had called him an asshole, would you be calling for her resignation, or is this a sexist sensitivity thing?

[demoleft]

5. Of course it is a sexist sensitivity thing!

And it is about political culture, democratic attitude and personal Bildung.

A politician represents people. Not himself. He represents women too, and France.
And frankly I'm so tired of these all mighty male politicians insulting women whenever given the chance

:spank:

[MH1]

7. Why should a woman feel "insulted" when a man calls another woman a name?

Why should gays feel "insulted" when someone calls someone else a "faggot"?

They're just words.

[demoleft]

10. Imagine to live the life of a woman or of a gay once...

...and see if you're able to stay cool when called names!

It is clear the "word" in this case was used with aggressive insulting motivation.
Something I would not bear if it targeted my wife, for example! Why should I tolerate it in a politician?!
This is my doubt.

You say "just words". Words is what we use mostly to relate with other people.
They should be carefully used, shouldn't they?!

[MH1]

13. How do you know that I am not one or both?

I choose to keep personal details out of my posts, but perhaps you should not assume.

I think a person should not let others undermine their happiness so easily by being offended by namecalling among other people!

Of course I don't think people SHOULD use words like that, but having some life experiences around folks who use, um, shall we say "non-elitist speech patterns" quite a bit, I just think we should cut some slack when someone expresses themselves that way.

JMHO. Feel insulted if you want to, it is your choice.

[demoleft]

39. I don't know in fact...

...you referred to women and gays in your post and I asked you to IMAGINE to be in their shoes and see if you would feel offended.

What you repeatedly call "people", "folks", someone...in our case is a POLITICIAN. I think a politician can't use the term at all and if he does he should face something more than reprimenda. Women are human beings - something some male politicians forget easily.

Of course I am offended, of course it is my choice to be so. I just asked your opinion and thank you for expressing it.

Ciao!

[Warpy]

3. French doesn't have that many pejoratives to choose from

and there is a male equivalent of that word.

He was reprimanded. That was enough.

[MH1]

4. Let he or she who has never uttered an epithet like "b*tch" cast the first stone.

It'll take a bit before people get used to the idea that every word they utter may be caught on tape and played back to the world (out of context) over and over again.

Not knowing anything about the people involved here, or the situation, I'm just tired of the "outrage" and self-righteousness these days whenever someone says something stupid that can be sensationalized.

(Yeah, it was nice to replace George Allen in the Senate, and that might not have happened except for "macaca", but as a trend I still don't like it.)

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

9. Whether he resigns is up to him and his party

I think it would be stupid to believe that he's ethically compelled to resign for calling an opponent a "bitch."

What if one of us was running against Ann the Man Coulter?

[DemSoccerMom]

18. If someone were running against Ann Coulter,

I would hope the words "despicable human being" would be enough. Ann Coulter has many issues that any intelligent person can disagree with. However, calling her a "bitch" or even "Ann the Man" puts one on HER level. Attack her on the issues. Let's not resort to 2nd grade name-calling. The term "bitch" is misogynistic, and "Ann the Man" is transphobic (fear of transsexuals ).

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

20. "Bitch" is not, in my view, misogynistic

Just like "prick" is not misogynistic.

[DemSoccerMom]

21. You're right.

"Prick" is not misogynistic. The definition of misogyny is:

mi·sog·y·ny
n. hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

I personally have never heard a woman referred to as a "prick." The term is, however, sexist.

So, if someone were to call your mother a "bitch," you'd be OK with that, right?


EDIT for typo.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

22. You've never called a fellow woman a "bitch"?

I've called fellow men "pricks."

[DemSoccerMom]

23. Ah, how quickly we change the subject.

And yes, I will freely admit that when I was younger, I DID in fact use the term, and in some cases, I did not mean it in a derogatory way. However, when I was a sophomore in college, I had a WONDERFUL feminist professor who became my mentor. I have made a conscious effort NOT to use the term since then.

You never answered my question, though. If someone walked up to your mother and said "You're a bitch," would that be OK with you?

And, just because YOU'VE called men pricks doesn't make it any less sexist.

EDIT for clarification

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

24. If anyone used ANY insult against my mother, it would NOT be ok with me

That doesn't prove your point Soccer Mom.

[noamnety]

27. You mean you wouldn't view it as a compliment? (nt)

[DemSoccerMom]

28. Why doesn't it?

Unless I've misinterpreted something you wrote, you are claiming the politician who called his female opponent a "bitch" did nothing wrong. Well, if there's nothing wrong with the term "bitch" why couldn't we just go around calling everyone's mother that?

After all, you advocate using the term "bitch" when referring to Ann Coulter. She may not be someone's mother (or she may be, I don't know her family situation, nor do I care), but she IS someone's child.

So if the term "bitch" is not OK to be used against your mother (which I agree it is not), why is the term OK to be used against ANY woman?

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

31. "Bitch" is an insult

You're the one making a big fuss about it. I never said he didn't do anything "wrong."

If someone called my mother a nutcase, that would hurt even more than "bitch." And that's not a "sexist" remark. So your discussion of sexism is pointless and does your cause a disservice.

[youngdem]

25. Yep.

Plenty of men I deal with are bitches.

Bitching is whining with particular annoyance.

Bitches are complainers or jerks.

I think if someone infers that this is a female trait, the bigotry lies within THEM.

[DemSoccerMom]

33. You, my young friend, are misinformed.

bitch (bĭch)
n.
A female canine animal, especially a dog.
Offensive
A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
A lewd woman.
A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
Slang A complaint.
Slang Something very unpleasant or difficult

(my, how I love the online dictionary)

So are you saying that the men you deal w/ who are "bitches" are weak? Throughout history, it has been WOMEN who have been viewed as the "weaker sex."

[youngdem]

34. Times have changed

Bitch is applied to men VERY often, and aptly I might add.

Nice age discrimination in your post trying to correct my 'misinformed sexism', and you are assuming...Perhaps young is part of my name and refers not to my age...you know what they say about assuming.

[DemSoccerMom]

35. Uh, no. Not age discrimination.

I would imagine us to be around the same age. And how do YOU know I wasn't merely using part of your screen name in my post?!

[MaineDem]

37. The word has come into general usage but that's the point

It shouldn't be allowed to.

The pervasive use in music is just one example.

And a woman should not be required to figure out just HOW the user intends the word. It really saddens me that so many people accept the word and don't understand that it is blatant sexism.

[demoleft]

40. Right

"And a woman should not be required to figure out just HOW the user intends the word."

Perfectly said!

[Mass]

15. Poor translation - There is no sexist connotation in "salope".

There is a male equivalent "salop".

[Totally Committed]

17. Merci!

:)

TC

[Forrest Greene]

26. Without Reference To The Particular Situation Described Above, "Bitch" Is A Useful Word

It is a word which is trying to evolve in such a way as to enrich the descriptive precision of our language.

In this use, "bitch" means the speaker thinks the person, male or female, so described has behaved in a manner somewhat worse than that described by "jerk" & which is also stereotypically feminine (whatever that might be.) If this worse-than-a-jerk person behaved in a stereotypically masculine manner (whatever that might be,) he or she could be called a "bastard."

If the hypothetical worse-than-a-jerk behaved worse than even a bitch or a bastard, the language also provides "c---" & "p----" as more intense indicators of stereotypically-gendered offensive behavior.

[Forrest Greene]

29. Just As Men & Women

Have huge amounts of behavior in common, so too they have huge amounts of behavior that differ. Why should our language not have words to reflect that?

[noamnety]

30. and with that logic ...

you're okay with the n word as well? You view that as an enriching descriptive way to use language precisely?

I think our language is rich and precise enough without having to resort to a metaphorical use of bigoted language to convey meaning.

[Forrest Greene]

42. Speak For Yourself

[noamnety]

45. um, okay. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there.

Me: I think our language is rich and precise enough without having to resort to a metaphorical use of bigoted language to convey meaning.

You?: I think our language is not rich and precise enough to convey meaning without sometimes resorting to a metaphorical use of bigoted language.

[Forrest Greene]

47. You?: I think our language is not rich and precise enough to convey meaning without sometimes resort

Please stop attempting to put words in my mouth. Thanks.

[Forrest Greene]

49. Two Last Thoughts

A language does not become, or remain, effective by removing words from it, & you cannot legislate morality.

[noamnety]

50. I haven't tried to legislate anything.

I do believe we have a moral obligation not to use sexist, racist, or homophobic speech.

[Forrest Greene]

46. But Seriously

I think there is a difference, lying in the speaker's intent. One word seeks to negatively define what the person defined is (allegedly.) The other seeks to negatively describe what the person does (again, as interpreted by the speaker.)

There's a difference between saying "You are a jerk" & saying "You are acting like a jerk."

The first is illegitimate & ultimately powerless, if the person described has any self-respect. The second can range from an expression of utter contempt to a sincere attempt at constructive criticism, depending on the specific individual context.

In any of that second order of attempts, the (stereotypical) gender-specificity can enhance accuracy & diversity of expression, without necessarily being an expression of that special form of benighted ignorance called bigotry. How is this person behaving like a jerk, in what manner? Is she leaning in too close to you, trying to assert power over you, threatening some form of violence? She's behaving like a bastard. Is he conniving, colluding, spreading falsehoods behind your back? He's behaving like a bitch.

Those are gendered stereotypes of behavior, to be sure, but they are not, perhaps, completely unfounded. Would they succeed as stereotypes if they were?

Would the words "bully" & "catty" be better? I don't know.

Gender is a very powerful & basic thing in us. To invalidate, infantilize or deny it is unwise.

[MaineDem]

38. But we shouldn't be working to let the word evolve

Why can't we all just let it go back to referring to a female canine without letting it become a generally accepted sexist slang?

[Forrest Greene]

43. Evolution Does Not Work In Reverse

(Despite the apparent evidence all around us in our fellow man. 'N' fellow women, too.)

Also, it works on its own, without any assistance from us &, generally, without our really being able to accurately predict where our efforts to assist evolution in one direction or another will actually eventually wind up.

By the same token as your question, why not let it evolve past the sexist connotations into it's simple denotation of offensive behavior, gendered?

[MaineDem]

44. Why use it at all?

People could just realize it IS sexist and stop using it.

But that doesn't seem to be catching on even with the usually intelligent people here at DU.

:shrug:

[Forrest Greene]

48. Maybe Highly Intelligent People

...don't necessarily have to agree about everything without holding each other in contempt or doubting each other's good faith. Maybe not.

[LBJDemocrat]

32. In French, almost all insults are gender specific

It would be just strange to call a woman an enfoirée.

And salope has a male equivalent: salopard. It's just the feminine version of an insult.

You're all applying Anglo-American PC rules to the French language, and I'm sure the French would largely find it ridiculous.

[MrSlayer]

41. No.

Sticks and stones and all that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

51. I'd be reluctant to wade in without learning more about French idiom than I currently know.

I would caution those of both his critics and his defenders who aren't first-language French speakers from assuming that "salope" has precisely the same connotations as "bitch" does in America, or assuming that those who claim that it does or doesn't are unbiased.

Invective seldom translates well.

[demoleft]

54. Semantically interesting...

...is the reflection on the words and their meaning. I see many posts here have to do with that and disregard the heart of the matter: a male politician used an ugly word against a female politician!

The value of the french word, though maybe not corresponding to the English, is nonetheless clearly insulting:
why did Sarkozy make a reprimenda and why did the politician call the collegue on the phone to apologize, if it wasn't insulting?

Strange how many here would like to see women more similar to men - 'it's no offence, woman, it means he considers you a tough one!'
It fits a football team, not civil society!
Considering the mess men are doing of the world in contemporary era I'd like to see men more similar to women!

Ciao! :hi:

[dsc]

53. He should be forced to run again

if he wins, then he keeps his job, if he loses, then he doesn't. I wouldn't vote for the man but I don't think people should be denied the ability to vote for candidates of their choice.