Why should Dean withdrawl if he keeps picking up delegates?

[WI_DEM]

I keep hearing the media wanting to make this a Kerry-Edwards contest and I scratch my head because Howard Dean keeps picking up delegates.

In the last week we have had contests in Washington, Michigan, Maine, Virginia, Tennessee, DC, and Nevada. John Kerry has won each of them handily. No doubt about it he is the front runner.

But Dean came in solid second in both Maine and Washington. He came in second in Michigan and Nevada. And a close third in DC. Edwards, came in strong second in Tennessee and Virginia. Third in Michigan and Nevada and fourth in DC.

In terms of delegates in the last week Dean has won 67 delegates and Edwards has won 55. Tonight Dean picked up five delegates to none for Edwards.

Yet the media wants Dean to get out of this so that it can be a two man race between Kerry and Edwards. Why?

I'm not saying Edwards should get out either? why should he. He has a following and is winning delegates as well. I don't think giving Democrats a choice in the primaries is hurting the party.

My feeling is that people get the idea that Edwards is John Kerry's chief opponent for the nomination because Edwards has been doing better on Tuesday nights when the cable stations are in full force monitoring the returns while Dean has been doing best over the weekends when the media is not covering it as much.

[Iverson]

1. nahhhh

Dean should drop out for the same reason that Kucinich and Sharpton should agree to become invisible. The movers and shakers wish it so.

[WI_DEM]

3. yes

the DLC and the media wants to guarantee that someone they know and trust can get the nomination. Dean underwent months of intense media scrutiny when he was the preceived front runner. I have not seen any of this same scrutiny with John Kerry. And I'm not talking about some rumor about an affair, but scrutiny on his record and statments like Dean underwent. With Kerry all the media says is that "he is electable"

[Lefta Dissenter]

2. Dean should withdraw

when he's good and ready to do so... and not before.

I was sick of hearing people say that Clark should withdraw, and I'm sick of hearing people call for Dean to do so, as well.

When he's out of $$, or out of steam, that's the time. Only he can make that decision.

[WI_DEM]

4. thank you

let me tell you that I know many people who will still be voting for Wes Clark here in Wisconsin--including my brother.

[Lefta Dissenter]

5. and ME! :) (eom)

[lastknowngood]

6. If Dean withdraws I suggest he take his money and followers

and work on local elections and leave the DNC/DLC to flutter in the wind. I'm sorry but I feel absolutely no loyalty to the party any more.

[jfxgillis]

7. I'm a big-time Kerry guy and I agree

AS LONG AS Dean doesn't take out the long knives for Kerry and feed lines and issues to Rove for the general election.

If both Edwards and Dean are picking up their 15% on average and the primaries are civil and focused on Bush, this is a bonanza for the Dems.

[Joe Momma]

16. haven't you heard what he has been saying about Kerry?

[John_H]

8. LOL. Because the other guy is picking them up at ten times the rate.

[stickdog]

10. And? Why should the second place guy drop out before the third, fourth

or fifth?

[John_H]

47. I admire your opimsm, but look at the primary schedule.

Kerry will pick up a bunch of WI Delegates Tuesday.
Super tuesday is heavy in the South--not exactly Deans strong region. Edwards may pick up a few of those delegates, but Kerry will pick up huge numbers in NY and CA. Then it's more bad news for Dean in the West.

If you're in favor of making Howard Dean an object of derision and the butt of jokes, I guess this is the way to go. In fact, every time I see him on the news these days, I agree with you more.

[stickdog]

9. The media wants to pile on Kerry and set up the false drama of a

horserace.

However, they dare not with Dean still in the race -- hence the pressure for him to drop out.

[LizW]

12. Exactly.

The media is dying to take Kerry apart, but they can't do it while Dean's still in the race for fear he will make a comeback.

Think the mainstream media didn't run with the infidelity rumor because of their high journalistic standards and ethics? Nuh-uh. It just isn't time yet.

The instant Dean drops out, the vultures will tear Kerry to bits.

[MurikanDemocrat]

11. Dean is under Party pressure to withdraw

well one, because he hasn't won a single primary and doesn't stand a chance of winning the primary. But primarily because he is focusing so much of his message to attacking the Democratic Party and other Democrats instead of against Bush. The purpose of this election is to beat the opponent, not tear down the Party and the nominee with the best chance of beating him.

Before you flame me, I'm just the messenger. I'm just telling it how it is. I otherwise support Kucinich, Sharpton, and Edwards staying in the race, although Edwards is under some pressure to drop as well. I would be for Dean too if he would quit with the divisive tactics.

[stickdog]

13. Dean balanced budgets and created jobs. Dean gave his state

nearly universal healthcare. Dean was against the Iraq disaster from the beginning. Dean was against the No Child Left Behind disaster from the beginning. Dean could credibly attack Bush from the right, left and middle on all of Bush's biggest failures.

So why exactly does Kerry have the best chance against Bush other than the fact that the media told us so?

[Old and In the Way]

15. The only thing that really counts.

A lot more people wanting him to be our nominee for POTUS.

[stickdog]

28. His only issues are safety and patriotism.

And both are losing issues against Bush. When will we learn?

[lojasmo]

44. The only thing that counts Redoux

The only thing that counts is getting Bush out of office in November.

The average voter is a MORON. Democrats are voting for the perceived leader. Who creates that perception? The media.

Dean has consistently produced positive results in Vt. Health care, the budget, legal parity for GLBT persons. If he's picking up votes, he should stay in. It can only enrich the primary. I may end up having to vote for JK in November, but I will support HD (or DK if howard drops) in the MN caucus

I have always said the next POTUS will be HD or GWB. I stand by that.

[Joe Momma]

18. Dean cannot win a single primary

why do you think he can win a national election? just curious.

[stickdog]

32. A one on one battle with Bush is a completely different dynamic.

The media would be forced to give Dean a platform to speak for several months.

[Dookus]

41. yes

and the way he earns that platform is by beating the other Democrats in the primaries. He has failed to do so, even once.

Kerry is not just ahead - he is winning resoundingly, across the nation, among all types of Democrats.

Dean is losing across the nation. 40 million dollars and not one primary win. I see no reason why we should interpret that as meaning he could beat Bush.

[stickdog]

50. Kerry has co-opted Dean's message. But his RECORD vis a vis Dean

on Iraq, deficits, media consolidation, healthcare, special interests and corporate pandering makes him ripe for the RNC picking.

[Dookus]

53. ah I get it..

if he's right on an issue, he stole it from Dean. His 20 years as one of the most liberal members of the Senate means nothing.

And you really think the RNC is going to run ads condemning Kerry for being against huge deficits?

[polpilot]

19. A pro-war DLC establishment candidate running against Bush has NO

CHANCE whatsoever. We are witnessing what the DLC and the establishment from both parties want and have created. Clark rolled out to take down Dean and now the establishment has no threat WHATSOEVER REGARDLESS of the outcome. Score one for the pro-war establishment!

Dean '04...Anti-War...Anti-Establishment..Anti-DLC...Pro-American

[MurikanDemocrat]

21. Apparently the voters feel otherwise

[stickdog]

33. And how did the "voters" reach this conclusion? (nt)

[Dookus]

38. the presumption

is that if they don't agree with you they're sheep, or stupid, or easily manipulated.

However if Dean were in the lead, would you feel the same way? Even if a Kerry supporter made the same claims?

Kerry's winning across the country among all groups of people. If the election were held today he'd beat Bush.

Neither of those things is true of Dean.

[MurikanDemocrat]

45. A better question is how did you reach YOUR conclusion?

Your conclusion isn't based on how the votes have gone so far, nor polls in the remaining states.

[stickdog]

49. My conclusion is based on logic. Bush's worst failing are Dean's

strongest issues -- record deficits, record job losses, healthcare boondoggles, special interest driven pork explosions, media consolidation, integrity and Bush's absurdist, bullying, war mongering foreign policy -- specifically the Kerry-supported Iraq quagmire.

Kerry's best issue against Bush is that the went to Vietnam 30 years agao.

[MurikanDemocrat]

52. You keep changing the subject. Nice try.

What I responded to was to another poster who stated:

"A pro-war DLC establishment candidate running against Bush has NO CHANCE whatsoever"

I said apparently the voters feel otherwise. You came in and asked how I came to that conclusion I answered you how you conclude otherwise.

Now the question is, how do you conclude "A pro-war DLC establishment candidate running against Bush has NO CHANCE whatsoever", which I presume means Kerry has no chance of beating Bush?

Your answer is that Kerry's best issue is that he went to Vietnam 30 years ago. Cute, but absurd. The majority of voting Democrats disagree with you. Gross mischaracterizations of Kerry's record and platform do not make it true, no matter how much you wish it.

Dean can't win a single primary, after two years of campaigning and 40Mil+. He does not have the strongest credentials in the issues you address as you profess. Nor are the majority of Democratic voters making the IWR a litmus test for their choice of candidates.

Your conclusion is not based on logic, but wishful thinking.

[Dookus]

23. and an anti-war DLC centrist candidate

who can't win a single primary despite dropping a fortune into the race has a much worse chance.

Kerry is ALREADY beating Bush in the polls. Dean is nowhere close to doing so.

[Old and In the Way]

25. EVEN IF YOU CAPITALIZE YOUR WORDS

IT DOESN'T MAKE YOUR STATEMENT ANY TRUER.

Because, if you believe Kerry can't win, given the results to date, I really don't know how you can conclude that Dean can win.

And what you are witnessing are mainstream Democrats deciding for themselves who they want to be their President. I know the truth hurts, but there it is.

[MurikanDemocrat]

20. None of that has a single solitary thing to do with what

I said or to the question posed in this thread.

[Dookus]

22. two reasons

He's winning primaries at a rate unseen before in contested primaries, which means Dems are solidly supporting him. Second, current polls show him beating Bush now. That is not true of Dean or Sharpton or Kucinich. It's a tie with Edwards.

[stickdog]

34. Polls are just media's way of seeing if their message is getting through.

Not to mention reinforcing their message among underinformed front-runner types.

[Dookus]

37. bullshit

and if you saw a poll saying Dean could beat Bush, I guarantee you'd be pushing it here.

If you have evidence that Dean would do better than Kerry against Bush, present it.

[stickdog]

46. Evidence? It's self-evident. Dean's best issues are GW's worst failings.

Record deficits, record job losses, healthcare crisis inaction and boondoggles, the explosion of special interest pork, campaign financing and the Iraq quagmire.

Kerry's best issue vs. Bush is that he went to Vietnam over 30 years ago. I don't even know what comes in second. Do you?

[Dookus]

54. "self-evident" means you don't have any evidence

Democrats are overwhelmingly supporting Kerry. Polls show him beating Bush NOW.

There is no evidence that Dean could beat Bush other than your wishful thinking.

[Old and In the Way]

14. By all means, stay in.

No problem for me. But keep the attack focused on Bush and keep telling us why we should vote for you. Just don't go negative on the other candidates...that only serves the Republican's interests.

Seems like a reasonable "middle ground".

[Castilleja]

17. None of them should be asked to drop out til the end!

What the hell will happen to those states who have not yet voted? I guess it is like saying, "Don't bother, we have our own plans and minds made up already, you participation is not necessary or wanted". I am sick of hearing about pressure on so and so to drop out. Those of you who wish to have your candidate given a clear field, rather than fight it out all the way to the convention can just wait it out. I can assure you that if my preferred candidate were to drop out, I will not be voting for yours, given what I have been reading and hearing.

[Leilani]

24. Dean should not be pressured to drop out

He represents too many people. Hang in there.

As far as Edwards, he's the media darling. The week that Clark finished 2nd in Ariz, N.Dakota, N.Mexico, they said Edwards was still Kerry's main challenger.

I wish my guy was still in the race, & this front loaded system stinks.

[Dookus]

27. I really don't see any different outcome

if we didn't have the "frontloaded" system.

Dean imploded before the first primary. It's been a month, and he hasn't been able to recover at all.

Clark's issue was not one of time. He wasn't really gaining anywhere that would've made much of a difference. And I'm an ardent Clark supporter.

Kerry is not just ahead - he's slaughtering his opponents. I don't think the timing of the primaries would've made any appreciable difference.

[stickdog]

36. If the primaries were not frontloaded the media would be forced to

crap on Kerry (just like they crapped on Dean) BEFORE he became the defacto Dem nominee.

As it is, they can very conveniently wait until Kerry has it all wrapped up before they take him down.

[Dookus]

40. well

blame the media if it makes you feel better. I suppose it's easier than facing the truth: democrats across the country prefer Kerry.

[Leilani]

42. The front loading made all the difference

It was a bandwagon effect, that took on a life of it's own. Everyone felt they needed to reach a consensus quickly. Kerry may well have won anyway in a different schedule.

But the point you miss is that people feel their vote doesn't count, their primary doesn't count, & all their work & hopes were for naught.

You became a Kerry supporter before Wes endorsed Kerry, if I remember correctly. And you took a lot of heat from Clark people, me included.
Not all of us have your electoral dexterity & flexibility.

[madfloridian]

48. Excellent point here.

Your quote: "But the point you miss is that people feel their vote doesn't count, their primary doesn't count, & all their work & hopes were for naught."

That is exactly how many people feel. Well put.

[Leilani]

51. Some people just don't get it.

Lecturing people ad nauseum does not change a single mind or heart.

[ChoralScholar]

26. doesn't it come to a point

where it is mathematically impossible to pick up enough delegates to get the nomination? If so, what is the point of staying in?

[SadEagle]

29. Sending one's delegates to the convention to influence the platform?

That's not unimportant, is it?

[Dookus]

30. Vanity

see Sharpton and Kucinich for examples.

[stickdog]

35. But not Edwards?

Why not?

[Dookus]

39. I expect Edwards will drop out very soon, too

Edwards will not stay in the race past the point where it's mathematically impossible to win.

[stickdog]

43. Well that's not what we are talking about, now is it? We are talking about

the pressue on Dean to quit before 3/2.

[Dookus]

55. No

if you read my post and the one it responded to, you'd see it referred very specifically to those without a mathematical chance to win.

Don't worry - Dean will be there soon enough.

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