Dodd Swipes Obama on latter's support for "Merit Pay" for Teachers

[draft_mario_cuomo]

I agree with Dodd on this issue but the real stories in this, for me, are twofold:

1) This is a policy issue on which Obama evidently deviates from the rest of the field. Well, the Democratic field... The difference is also significant in that he is taking a more conservative stand. This policy echoes the old Clinton/DLC/Third Way formula of "opportunity and responsibility". Indeed, Bill Clinton himself put it in practice in education with a scheme to increase teacher pay with strings attached while governor of Arkansas. This is amusingly ironic, given the frequent criticisms of HRC and her husband's "DLCism" from BO supporters. The BO proposal also, arguably, cleverly triangulates between progressive and conservative views on the issue (he is also calling for an across the board increase in teacher pay which assuages progressives but brings the string of "merit pay" that many conservatives have long lobbied for with his education plan). This may help him if he makes it to the general election.

2) We have a so-called "second tier" candidate criticizing a "first tier" candidate. Will we see more of this in the future? It is a way for them to generate more headlines but it may cost them support. However, right now, such candidates have little to lose and the potential gain may outweigh the potential loss.

==Sen. Chris Dodd took an indirect swipe at Barack Obama after he came out as the only candidate for teacher merit pay at yesterday's National Education Association conference.

"I fear that instituting a merit pay system may encourage teaching to the test and discourage teachers from working in schools with large numbers of disadvantaged students," Dodd said in a press release today. Dodd's position should play well among the NEA, which has previously opposed merit pay -- though the audience gave the popular Obama a pass for now.

Obama promises to release details of his education plan later, but said he would incentivize teachers who work in urban and poor-performing school districts, contra Dodd's fear of a teacher exodus in those areas. Obama said he'd increase pay across the board and give additional money to educators teaching high-demand subjects like math, science and special education as well as those who mentor. On linking pay to student achievement, Obama said the country can find ways to increase pay for teachers that aren't imposed on them and isn't based on "arbitrary tests."==

http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2007/07/dodd_swipes_obama_on_merit_pay.html

[montanacowboy]

1. Obama is dead wrong on this

this is the crap Bushy tried to pull with federal workers; merit pay, bullshit; who decides? this is wrong on every level there is

[draft_mario_cuomo]

6. I agree

Thanks for pointing out how bad of an idea it was when * proposed it for the federal workforce. The same principles applied by someone with a "D-" next to his name in education will be as troublesome.

"Who decides" is a key question.

[Ethelk2044]

62. Obama is correct and if Dodd would have read Obama's Speech he would agree

[draft_mario_cuomo]

67. How about quoting his speech?

This seems to be a meme to defend BO but the actual speech is conspicuously absent. ;)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

104. Good defense

not.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Oh, is he "cleverly triangulating?" Or does he have an idea that he thinks will work?

All depends on how you spin it, I guess. What's wrong with increased across-the-board pay, plus incentive/merit pay as needed? Sounds like common sense to me.

[sandnsea]

4. Hope that's what he means

I don't think that's anything new, I think that's what was supposed to happen under NCLB anyway. We'll see.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

5. Probably both, just like Bill Clinton in the 90's

;)

Merit pay? There is a reason he is the only Democratic candidate supporting it (although it is a popular idea among conservatives). It is a bad idea. As post #1 pointed out, it was a bad idea for the federal workforce when * proposed it and it would be equally as bad in eduation if someone with a "D-" next to his name enacted it.

[Ethelk2044]

64. What is wrong with Merit Pay. Don't we all get Merit increases on Our Jobs

That is the problem we need to weed out teachers who are not performing. There are some teachers who are great. But there are some teachers where you wonder where they went to school. If any of you are parents some of you know what I mean.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

68. No. Merit pay is different

The problems with this have been stated several times in this thread. If you are interested in the issue read the thread. If you are simply interested in defending BO, then continue. ;)

==That is the problem we need to weed out teachers who are not performing.==

That isn't what he is talking about. He isn't going to fire anyone. He isn't talking about tenure. He will simply follow Jeb Bush's example in Florida and have a sliding scale of pay based on an arbitrary criteria and a very flawed system of "evaluation" that is open to playing the system and favoritism from supervisors.

[TwilightGardener]

69. I thought you said Obama hasn't released the details yet.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

70. How is that relevant to post #68?

Thanks in advance.

[TwilightGardener]

73. Calling you on "details" that haven't been released.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

74. Wrong. The difference between tenure and merit pay are well-known

These are not some minor details that will change. Unless, of course, you agree with sandnsea and think that BO will not only redefine 300 year old merit pay but also tenure!

I simply pointed out the difference between tenure and merit pay. Merit pay has nothing to do with what ethelk described.

[hedgehog]

110. So, you're saying that after he works with the teachers and the teachers' unions

in the full light of day, the best plan possible will be the same one that Jeb came up with?

If we can't do better than the republicans, why do we even worry about trying?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

112. The problems with merit pay are so fundamental that no self-styled political wizard can make it work

[sandnsea]

3. I tend to agree with Dodd

Unless Obama's merit pay is to encourage teachers to get those advanced degrees and take on the tougher challenges. Maybe he doesn't mean merit in the sense of taking away tenure. If that's the case, I can support that. That's the right way to get good teachers into tough teaching assignments.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

8. He probably means what Bush* meant when he did the same thing

I doubt he means any of the things you mentioned, although they might be part of his overall education package.

"Merit pay", in theory, rewards the most productive workers by creating a pay range for each worker based on his or her performance. The "best" workers get paid the most, "mediocre" workers are in the middle of the range, and the "worst" workers find themselves at the bottom of the pay band. This supposedly spurs less productive workers to improve in order to increase their pay. Consequently "merit pay" prevents workers from being lazy and resting on their fixed income, which will be the same as their co-worker regardless of how they perform.

That is the right-wing theory. Here is the reality. "Merit pay" relies on unreliable criteria and is prone to simply being a mechanism to reward those with friends in the relevant higher places (i.e. the close friend of a supervisor who (glowingly) "evaluates" him and gives him the choice assignments at work...). The notion that workers are slacking because they are paid on a fixed salary is absurd. The vast majority of workers work hard because they aspire to be promoted and because of self-respect. The conservative mythology holds that no one, or very few people, seek to be promoted and are content with happily collecting their current income while slacking off. It also holds that few workers have enough self-respect to make a legitimate effort at work. These are ludicrous beliefs.


All that said, "merit pay" sounds good and is a political winner...

[sandnsea]

9. A good politician

Takes their language and turns it against them, using it to implement good policy.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

11. This is straight from their policy

"Merit pay" is straight from the * playbook. The only difference is he is applying the same concepts that * applied to the federal workforce to teachers. Where BO differs from conservatives on education (not on "merit pay") is that he is offering more money, not just increased strings with no money attached. However, it should be clear that "merit pay" is not a new idea BO invented. It is an idea * himself has championed and implemented in the federal government (except, of course, to his appointees!).

I hope we Democrats remain consistent on this. It was wrong when Bush* (R-) proposed it; it is equally wrong when Obama (D-) proposes it.

If "merit pay" is such a great idea why doesn't BO introduce a bill to have "merit pay" where he works, the senate? ;)

[sandnsea]

26. Did you listen?

Are you capable of listening.

Using the opponents language to push your own agenda is the strategy of a smart politician.

It doesn't make a hill of beans difference what the right wing's definition of merit pay is - IF Obama is planning to take it away from them and implement HIS OWN PLAN.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

29. His "own plan" will be just like W's plan and Jeb Bush's plan

Speaking of not listening... ;) You are ignoring that he is relying on the same theory that Jeb Bush used in Florida for education and George W. Bush* for the federal workforce in favor of creating your own novel definition of "merit pay" in the hope that Obama somehow means something to that effect.

When you have someone going straight out of the Jeb Bush playbook be wary of that policy. ;)

[sandnsea]

30. So you're a prophet now?

You can't possibly know what Obama's plan is going to be. I'm done with you. You're a fucking ass. Ignore. Good bye.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

33. Ignorance is bliss. Learn what "merit pay" is before talking about it

It is a 300 year old idea yet you are telling us that Obama is suddenly revising its definition. :rofl:

There is no need to be a prophet. If you knew what it is, like Jsamuel does, you would realize the same thing.

[jsamuel]

34. if Obama is going to use their language, he has to redefine it

he shouldn't use their language until he has a plan that redefines it. At this point all we know is he supports merit pay, but will consult with teachers before making a final decision. He isn't redefining the language. At least not yet, which is causing a lot of unnecessary grief among teachers if he doesn't actually mean merit pay.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

36. He isn't going to redefine a 300 year old concept

sandnsea is a BO supporter and simply spinning like a top because he or she cannot admit that his/her hero is wrong on a subject.

If BO has a magic plan to redefine a 300 year old concept he would have said it at the NEA forum.

[sandnsea]

37. Well he did

But some people are more interested in lying about what he said than addressing what he said.

"If you're willing to teach in a high-need subject like math or science or special education, we'll pay you even more. If you're willing to take on more responsibilities like mentoring, we'll pay you more," Obama said."

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/7/5/151857/2551

[jsamuel]

38. those are incentives and not what he means by merit pay

I don't appreciate your tone. I am being forthright.

[sandnsea]

39. YES IT IS

Click the goddamn link and read.

And I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned lying.

[jsamuel]

42. there is already a name for that and they are called incentives

the link cuts up what he said, but he doesn't say merit pay means yadda yadda yadda. He said "public schools should consider merit pay." The incentives he talks about are mentioned elsewhere in his speech.

Those are incentives.

He also says that he wants merit pay.

Those are two completely different things.


Look, he came out in support of merit pay and made no attempt to say, "but I don't think we should do it the way it been done before." He made no attempt to redefine it that I have seen beyond a mydd diarist who is most likely an Obama supporter melding a different part of his speech about incentives with his proposal for merit pay.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

44. Exactly. If he was redefining a 300 year old concept he would have said it

Obama is no god. He can be wrong too. Some cannot bring themselves to concede this. ;)

That said, we should discuss the issue. Perhaps it is a good idea. I disagree but clearly it has its proponents.

The telling thing, though, is if Obama is such a big fan of the efficacy of the concept why doesn't he implement it for his own staff or better yet, propose it for the senate, where HE works?

[Hard_Work]

100. Reading is Fundamental

Obama said he would only support a merit-pay approach after consulting with teachers.

"What I want to do is work with teachers," Obama said. "I'm not going to do it to you. I'm going to do with you."

Linda Nelson, the president of the Iowa NEA chapter, said merit pay is an idea that isn't going away.

"We need to be at the table. We need to be a part of that conversation, and that's exactly what Sen. Obama said," Nelson said.




Hmmm, seems that the NEA is willing to explore this idea with him.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

101. Reading is Fundamental

Read the thread. ;)

[sandnsea]

46. Go to the NEA site

It speaks for itself. The teachers went wild for Obama.

http://www.nea.org/annualmeeting/raaction/07obamaspeech.html

http://www.nea.org/annualmeeting/raaction/07candidates.html

[draft_mario_cuomo]

55. Now you are trying to tell people the NEA suddenly supports "merit pay"?

:rofl:

You are taking hero worship to an extreme and twisting basic truths. They did cheer him but not because of his support for something they have long opposed.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

41. You are correct. Sandnsea does not know what "merit pay" is

He or she is confusing incentives for the 300 year old concept of "merit pay."

His/her tone is amusing. We are being attacked for sandnsea's ignorance? Instead of attacking us sandnsea should do a simple Google search on the subject. I am no encyclopedia. When I come across something I don't know on DU I research it, not vilify those who know the subject and disagree with my gut reaction.

[Ethelk2044]

72. Does your job pay you just for the Hell off it. NO you have to earn your pay just

like the rest of us.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

75. That is not merit pay

Either you do not know what merit pay is or are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue in order to defend Obama. ;)

Obama himself does not have merit pay where he works (BO gets paid the same as Ted Kennedy! :rofl: :rofl: ) and apparently does not have it for his staff. If it is such a great idea why does he not practice what he preaches to others?

[Ethelk2044]

108. You must not know what Merit Pay is. They should have to earn it.

merit pay
–noun an additional sum paid to an employee, as a schoolteacher, whose work is superior and whose services are valued.

If a teacher is showing her students are improving he/she should get merit pay. Like I said before. My raises are based on whether or not if I perform my job. They should be like everyone else.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

113. I know what it is. I have seen the damage * did with it in the federal workforce

You are confusing bonuses with merit pay/pay for performance.

[jsamuel]

7. Teachers HATE merit pay and that is what Obama is advertising.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

10. How about "merit pay" for the senate, where Obama works?

If he truly believes in "merit pay" surely he would not mind applying it to his own occupation. ;)

[rufus dog]

12. someone needs to explain this to me

Higher pay across the board and more money for science and math teachers! The areas we are getting our asses kicked. How is this wrong?

[jsamuel]

13. ask a teacher about merit pay and they will tell you why

[draft_mario_cuomo]

18. See post 8.

The problem is "merit pay", not higher pay. Merit pay was a lousy idea when Bush* proposed it; it is a lousy idea when Obama is proposing it.

[MonkeyFunk]

14. I don't see anything wrong

in principle, with paying good teachers more than bad teachers.

And yes, some teachers ARE better than others.

[jsamuel]

15. the devil is in the details

ask a teacher you know why merit pay is bad

[MonkeyFunk]

16. I have asked teachers

including my father, my brother, my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law. All teachers. All don't oppose merit pay.

You just have to ask the good teachers.

[jsamuel]

17. wow... I guess practically every teacher at the NEA is a "bad teacher"

You hear that teachers? If you oppose Obama's merit pay "solution" then your not a good teacher.

Sounds an awful like, if you oppose the war, then your not a good American.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

22. Why isn't he proposing "merit pay" for the senate?

It is easy to trot out this idea for others; it is another thing to apply it to yourself. How about "merit pay" for the senate? Let's measure Obama's "performance" with that of Ted Kennedy or Russ Feingold. If it is good for teachers, why is it not good for the senate?

[MonkeyFunk]

25. I was being sarcastic

to counter the obnoxious tone of your "just ask a teacher" mantra. The fact is, teachers do NOT universally agree that this is a bad idea.

Naturally, good teachers support it, bad teachers would not support it. But there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea - in no other profession is proficiency not a factor in one's pay.

[jsamuel]

27. THAT IS TOTALLY UNTRUE

"good teachers support it, bad teachers would not support it"

You are showing you have no idea what you are talking about. You aren't doing Obama any good by taking this line of argument.

[LWolf]

97. Bullshit.

I am a good teacher, according to my students, their families, my colleagues, and my administrators. I do not support merit pay, and I have never met a good teacher that did.

Good teachers are smart enough to recognize that merit pay, which is based on test scores, is the fastest way to leave the most needy students behind. When pay level is connected to test scores, and research has proven repeatedly that test scores are most consistently connected to parent SES, what you'll get are teachers competing over which students they get, since that would determine their level of pay.

"Merit pay" is an unworkable concept in many professions because there is no accurate, objective way to measure "merit."

[draft_mario_cuomo]

98. I agree. Thanks for sharing your unique insight on this education issue! nt

[draft_mario_cuomo]

20. Who decides?

One of the fundamental problems of this, which Bush revealed when he implemented this among the federal work force, is who decides which worker is a "good" worker? What criteria will be used?

"Merit pay" sounds good--but it is not good and sound. It is merely a nice political ploy for the general election but a disastrous policy that has affected many people under * and will apparently affect even more people if Obama carries the Bush idea to education.

[jsamuel]

21. It is a disaster in Florida (48th in Ed) under Jeb Bush

[draft_mario_cuomo]

23. Jeb too? The Bushes sure love "merit pay"

Of course, they never apply it to their crony appointees (Mike Brown anyone?) or themselves. "Merit pay" for * would have at least saved the public a lot of money! :rofl:

[jsamuel]

24. He was just using it to destroy the system so they could justify school vouchers

just like W with underfunding NCLB

[dsc]

51. Here is why so many teachers are opposed to merit pay

You either have to measure merit by test scores, administrator evaluation, or some combination. Let's start with test scores. If you use test scores you will provide an incentive to teachers to teach only classes likely to be sucessful. Our problem in education isn't a lack of skilled teachers in schools and classes that aren't troubled. Also there will be a tremendous incentive to teach to the test or even worse to outright cheat.

Administrator evaluation is also fraut with problems. Adminstrators don't see you do you job all that often. In all but the smallest of high schools administrators don't have the time to be invested in how a teacher is doing. Schools can be very political places. I am not sure that you want to give one person that kind of power over another.

My biggest problem is that merit pay would tend to make it harder to staff schools and classrooms which are already hard to staff. Even with the very limited merit pay we have in NC you can see this effect. Schools with serious problems that prevent them from getting good test scores have even more difficulty keeping staff. Thus you get a revolving door staff on top of the structual problems that already exist.

[elizm]

77. BUT...

Obama is also proposing ADDITIONAL incentives for teachers who are willing to go to those hard to staff schools. That, combined with merit pay based on something fair...like maybe measuring student growth over the year, might actually work.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

78. There is no fair way to measure merit. That is one of the key objections to this 300 year old idea

If BO had a magic bullet surely the man who tells us the meaning of his name would share it with us...

Those incentives also do nothing to help the majority of teachers who do not teach in such schools and will be screwed by Obama's channeling of Jeb Bush on merit pay for teachers.

P.S. if merit pay is such a great idea why doesn't BO propose it for where he works, the senate? He gets paid as much as Ted Kennedy, who gets things done and doesn't just make speeches, and seems to have no problem with that.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

19. Sure, the principle is fine but the reality is far worse than the nice theory

See post 8 or look at how "effective" it has been in the federal government, where Bush* implemented it.

[sandnsea]

28. It's bad union policy

I disagree with it unless there's specific purpose to get good teachers into tough to fill positions. There's no such thing as paying people based on their skills, it's a lie. Business prefers the docile person who will work until they drop for half of the skilled person. Two docile employees for the price of one savvy one that won't put up with illegal and unethical shenanigans.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

32. Mitt Romney proposed a similar scheme while governor of Massachusetts

You seem to not know what "merit pay" is and are flailing around to defend your candidate.

"Merit pay" is a very old idea. Obama is not exactly reinventing the wheel here:

"The idea of merit pay, sometimes called pay for performance, was born in England around 1710. Teachers' salaries were based on their students' test scores on examinations in reading, writing, and arithmetic. The result was that teachers and administrators became obsessed with financial rewards and punishments, and curriculums were narrowed to include only the testable basics."

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2005/09/28/how_merit_pay_squelches_teaching/

[rufus dog]

31. Agree guidelines are needed

What is the current process? Does everyone get a set % increase? If so that is a horrible way, you reward mediocre and sub par performance. No one can tell me there aren't bad teachers out there, there are some at my kids school, there are also some great teachers, one that just won the teacher of the year. Should she get more than the slug that tells first graders her family problems, hell yes! The current system isn't working too good, as a whole do I think they are underpaid, yes. But I also think outstanding teachers and specialized teachers should get greater increases. We bring in thousands of H1 B programmers from India for high paying tech jobs because we couldn't find enough resources in the USA (Bill Clinton action) so we don't fix the root cause, not enough educated programmers/techies and then the jobs start getting exported for 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

35. It is a nice theory but never works. It is a 300 year old "magic bullet"

Funny how this "magic bullet" never works, although politicians love reviving it because it is a political winner. Jeb Bush did the same thing in Florida's education system (with Florida apparently ranking 48th in education after this "magic bullet" measure). George W. Bush did the same for the federal workforce. Mitt Romney supports it. So do others right-wingers. These people are not interested in better schools or a better federal workforce. They are interested only in political gain.

==f so that is a horrible way, you reward mediocre and sub par performance. No one can tell me there aren't bad teachers out there, there are some at my kids school, there are also some great teachers, one that just won the teacher of the year. Should she get more than the slug that tells first graders her family problems, hell yes! The current system isn't working too good, as a whole do I think they are underpaid, yes. But I also think outstanding teachers and specialized teachers should get greater increases.==

Sounds good. How do you implement it? Who defines good performance? Who measures performance? Ask federal workers or teachers in Florida what happens when "merit pay" is implemented.

[rufus dog]

40. Different people have different objectives

Are you really trying to tell me that Obama would implement a program the same way that the Bush family did? (with the intent of ruining public schools) I'm not saying I am an expert on education, the current system isn't working though. Do I want student vouchers run by religious organizations, no, do I think the current teachers unions status quo is the way to go, no.

It is good to see that Gates and (Broadcom CEO) have pleged 60 million for education spots prior to the 08 elections.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

43. "Merit pay" is a 300 year old, basic concept

Obama may think it is a good idea, he may think it is just good politics, or both. I am not concerned much with his intent. I am concerned with the idea and its consistent failures.
The notion that BO is proposing something novel, something radically different from what countless others , including the Bushes, proposed is incorrect. He will surely differ in the minor details but the fundamental concept is the same: pay "good" workers the most, "bad" workers the least, with "average" workers seeing their pay in the middle. Obama does not differ with *, Jeb Bush, or Romney in this respect.

[rufus dog]

45. If that is the definition

Then I agree 100%

"the fundamental concept is the same: pay "good" workers the most, "bad" workers the least, with "average" workers seeing their pay in the middle. Obama does not differ with *, Jeb Bush, or Romney in this respect."

[draft_mario_cuomo]

56. That is the 300 year old definition

There is no evidence that BO is reinventing the wheel and making a new definition. If he is, then we can assess his new idea when he tells us it. However, there is absolutely no evidence he is doing this. Don't be fooled by the deliberate attempt to twist the truth born out of one poster's hero worship of BO and total ignorance the concept BO is promoting.

[Hippo_Tron]

47. Your post leaves out the link to the philly.com article

Which states that the audience wasn't critical of Obama's response. Also, he says that he will work with the NEA to find good ways of evaluating merit pay, instead of the methods Bush uses which are just based on standardized tests. I look forward to hearing what solution President Obama and the NEA come up with.

[sandnsea]

48. Also omits wild standing ovation

http://www.nea.org/annualmeeting/raaction/07candidates.html

[draft_mario_cuomo]

58. It is disingenous to try to claim the NEA suddenly supports merit pay

They weren't cheering that part of his plan. Why are you trying to make it look like they suddenly transformed their position when Obama spoke before them? :eyes:

[draft_mario_cuomo]

57. The NEA does not support merit pay, whether Obama, Bushes, or Romney propose it

==Which states that the audience wasn't critical of Obama's response.==

That is false. Both articles note the long-standing opposition to "merit pay" by the NEA. Simply because they did not boo and hiss at someone they invited to speak before them does not mean they are suddenly reversing a long-standing position.

Mike Huckabee also spoke to them. Was he booed? Does that mean the NEA has suddenly become pro-Republican?

==Also, he says that he will work with the NEA to find good ways of evaluating merit pay, instead of the methods Bush uses which are just based on standardized tests.==

That sounds good: turn over the keys to me for 4 years on faith that I will do the right thing. How about telling us what you intend to do and how you intend to do it now? Voters are entitled to that. He can tell us what his name means but can't tell us about this critical education issue? :eyes:

There is no "good way" to "evaluate" merit pay. That is the fundamental problem. Obama either does not understand this (as we know, he has not proposed "merit pay" for himself or for his staff as far as we know) or is willing to ignore this because this Clinton-style triangulation helps him if he makes it to the general election.

The NEA will never support merit pay. If Obama wins they will simply try to minimize the damage from it. The problems with "merit pay" are so fundamental that the 300 year old concept cannot be tweaked into becoming a sudden winner.

==instead of the methods Bush uses which are just based on standardized tests.==

How else can you measure year-to-year progress relative to your co-workers? Obama was playing to the non-teacher liberal crowd with this. He knows that tests will make up the bulk of the "evaluation." There is no "magic bullet" for evaluating employees anyway. Even if some others factors are added in addition to tests (with most of the weight going to the tests...) the fundamental problems of merit pa y remain.

Let me ask you something. If merit pay is such a great idea why doesn't Obama introduce a bill in the senate to have merit pay in Congress? How about merit pay for his own staff? The D-Punjab memo staffer will be getting the same pay as co-workers at his/her own level? So much for "merit pay"...

[Hippo_Tron]

80. In response to: "How about telling us what you intend to do now?"

Because he doesn't have a good solution right now and that's why he wants to sit down with the NEA and find one when he is President. Obviously you want a President who will tell you what you exactly want to hear and so Obama may not appeal to you. I want a President who isn't afraid to admit that he doesn't have all of the answers and is willing to work with others to find them.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

87. He is asking to be given the most powerful position in the world

Yet he can't be bothered to give details about what he would do if elected? He can tell us what his name means but not what exactly he would do if elected?

==Obviously you want a President who will tell you what you exactly want to hear and so Obama may not appeal to you.==

Obama knows that he will lose votes if he says things people will disagree with so he keeps specifics to a minimum and is as generic as possible. ;)

==Because he doesn't have a good solution right now and that's why he wants to sit down with the NEA and find one when he is President.==

What Obama doesn't tell you is that there never has been and never will be a good solution to this 300 year old concept. Yes, he would sit down with the NEA if he is elected. The NEA will simply try to salvage the least worst policy in light of being forced to accept merit pay by a President Obama. To claim the NEA will happily reverse its longstanding position and find a magic bullet for this problem after 300 years because of Obama is not realistic.

[CTLawGuy]

49. Obama supports across the board pay increases for teachers

plus a way to pay better-performing teachers even more.

Only among Edwards/Hillary supporters is this bad.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

60. Did you support it when *, Jeb Bush, and Romney did the same thing?

==plus a way to pay better-performing teachers even more.==

This thread has debunked that conservative meme. This is exactly what Jeb Bush did in Florida and Romney supported in Massachusetts. * did the same for the federal workforce. Suddenly it is a great concept because Obama is backing it?

[CTLawGuy]

105. how do you know its the exact same thing

Bush's program depends entirely on the result of his stupid testing, whereas Obama specifically said he doesn't want to base pay on any arbitrary test.

Bush is against crime too, does that mean I should be for it?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

106. The concept is the same

==plus a way to pay better-performing teachers even more.==

Surely you agree that this is what Obama is proposing, after all that is what merit pay in education is!

==Bush's program depends entirely on the result of his stupid testing, whereas Obama specifically said he doesn't want to base pay on any arbitrary test.==

That is a distinction without a difference. Whatever criteria he creates will force teachers to teach to it, instead of just teaching. Besides, there is no way to measure performance of teachers without using tests. Tests will probably be the bulk of the assessment. If they aren't, the system will be even more arbitrary as it will be based on the evaluations of supervisors. That will do what it has done in the federal workforce under *, in many cases dole out the pay reserved for "good" workers to friends of supervisors.

==Bush is against crime too, does that mean I should be for it?==

Edwards, HRC, Biden, Dodd, Gravel, Richardson, and Kucinich are all against crime too. The difference on merit pay is that Obama is the only one who agrees with the Republicans.

Let's face it. If HRC was the one promoting this, not BO, Obama supporters would have 6 threads up each day denouncing this as further proof of her being a Republican-lite DLCer. ;)

[eweaver155]

50. Obama is Correct. Their Pay should be based on Merit.

It will weed out bad teachers.

[Mass]

53. How do you define merit? This is actually the biggest issue when you talk about merit pay.

Is it the teacher who has the best results with standardized tests?

Is it the teacher who gets the kids in his class to make the most progress (and then according to which standards)?

Is it the teacher who is ready to make the best efforts so that ALL the kids in his class make progress, even if this means that some of the kids get less attention than others (because they need less)?

Is it the teacher who is the most compliant to the school policy?

Is it the teacher who will make the least waves? Even if the waves are for good purposes?

So, intellectually speaking, I am for merit pay, as my kids have had their share of bad teachers. But I am also worried that the teachers who would get the merit pay in a school (town) are not the ones who deserve it, but the ones who play the system the best.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

63. Exactly. That is why it never works

How do you define merit and also how do you evaluate it? You are right. It often results in people playing the system or supervisors simply rewarding their friends. We know this because Jeb Bush did the same thing in Florida and * did the same thing with the federal workforce. It sounds good, is a political winner, but is a disastrous policy. It is no accident only one presidential candidate (well, only 1 Democratic candidate...) supports this...

If Obama truly believed in this he would 1) implement it for his own staff 2) introduce merit pay for Congress.

[Hippo_Tron]

81. Obama recognizes these problems, that's why he wants to work with the NEA to solve it

When no solution yet exists, a bunch of very smart people sit down in a room and come up with one. That is how governing should work.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

88. That is false. There is no solution to this 300 year old idea. Teachers know this

As I said earlier in the thread, what Obama doesn't tell you is that there never has been and never will be a good solution to this 300 year old concept. Yes, he would sit down with the NEA if he is elected. The NEA will simply try to salvage the least worst policy in light of being forced to accept merit pay by a President Obama. To claim the NEA will happily reverse its longstanding position and find a magic bullet for this problem after 300 years because of Obama is not realistic.

There is a reason BO is the only Democratic candidate siding with the likes of Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney on merit pay in education...

P.S. when will Obama introduce a bill to implement merit pay in the senate, where HE works? If it is such a great idea surely Obama would like to apply it to where he works.

[Hippo_Tron]

90. Agree to disagree

You don't think he can come up with a solution, I think he can. I've already answered your question about merit pay in the Senate. If someone isn't performing up to task on his staff, they don't get paid less, they get fired and replaced by one of the 50 other qualified people that wants their job. That doesn't work in education and so your comparison is not valid.

[maximusveritas]

52. Dodd should have actually read Obama's speech before criticizing

All the criticisms he offers of merit pay were addressed by Obama. Or maybe he did read it and he's relying on the ignorance of the people he's talking to.

[Ethelk2044]

61. I agree

[draft_mario_cuomo]

65. How about explaining how BO addressed merit pay?

Or maybe Dodd knows what the NEA and many others know about merit pay. Maybe Obama's explanation was weak? I haven't seen the NEA suddenly reverse their position on merit pay in light of Obama's speech.

[w4rma]

54. Obama is either naive or doesn't care to understand how things work in the workplace. (nt)

[Ethelk2044]

59. Obama is not Naive. He understands that the status quo needs to change

He wants to see more kids get an education. He also understands that some parents does not have the capablility to assist in educating their kids. The parents did not get the education they need to succeed. Being Naive is letting things stay the same because you are afraid of Change.

I have three teachers in my family they also feel the system have failed. It needs to be changed. He is not afraid of making that change.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

71. Thanks for channeling Jeb Bush

;)

[Ethelk2044]

111. Your Welcome!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

66. I agree

Either he is only interesting in political gain via triangulation on this or naive.

Does anyone know if BO practices what he preaches and implements merit pay for his own staff?

[rufus dog]

76. It is likely he does

If you have a star you keep him or her happy and give them more through pay or perks.

I question those who say it doesn't work. In my experience it always works. The low achievers either get on board or quit, and it is usually the former. The high achievers are thankful for being recognized for the extra effort.


About 15 years ago I took a job with a Major company, the group was a complete mess, low morale, questionable practices, etc. They gave all employees a raise at the same time, previously my predecessor let the his department heads determine the raise amount based upon the budgetary guidelines and signed off without questioning. Since I was there less than sixty days my direct reports came to me and said they will follow the same practice. I explained to them that I would need the recommendations for raises a week before the deadline so I could review and we could adjust if needed. During the short time I was there I could see who a few of the stars and dogs were, this was reinforced my the Dept. Heads daily condemnation or praise of their direct reports. So the time comes to review the increases and they all delivered raises that were between 3.4 and 3.8% (The corporate guideline for the year was 3.6%) The Dept. Heads teamed together and said this was how it was always done, low performers go a .2 hit and the stars got .2 more. (based upon Seniority a lot of the low end were already making more so their raise was actually larger) I told them this was nuts and sent them away and told them to try again. One of the four broke ranks and came up with raises that made sense and action plans and career recommendations for all of his group. The other three basically came back with the same recommendations and said their hands were tied since corporate was cheap. So I told them I would determine the raises.

Some of the staff got 8 to 10% a couple got nothing. The department heads leaked that it was me that decided the raises so they didn't have to take the heat. So I sat in all of the reviews and a funny thing happened, the high performers were very thankful and stated in front of their bosses that it good to finally get recognized. We then determined what was needed for promotions so we could get them even more money, a couple didn't want to get promotions in the future only recognized for doing good work and that was fine. As for the low enders, the guy that everyone thought would go off came in and sat down and said, I guess I am getting nothing, and you know what that is what I deserve. He said he had talked to his wife about it along with his work habits and he would try to improve. This guy was/is just a mean bastard so I asked him what he wanted to do, he said he would just do his job and try to improve. Instead I gave him a special job, working with problem suppliers that the others couldn't turn around, basically using him for muscle. He said he wasn't good at working with people and thought it was a bad idea. He started going out and became a star at turning around under performing suppliers, quickly determining when to use the leverage and when to use a bit off charm. So six months after the review he was able to get a promotion and an 8% raise.

[Hippo_Tron]

83. I'm sure that if his staff aren't preforming as well as they should be

He fires them and hires one of the 50 other qualified people that wants their job. So his form of merit pay is that you perform up to task or you don't get paid.

In teaching that doesn't work because of tenure (which I support) and because there aren't 50 qualified people waiting in line for a teaching position.

[LaPera]

79. I too agree with Dodd on this.

[snowbear]

82. Doddsie Woddsie sounds worried...

"How the hell did he pack 25,000 people into those places anyway!?!

And who the hell is he to raise 32.5 million in one damn quarter!!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

84. He should be--as most teachers will be once word spreads about Obama's position

Merit pay is a political winner but a bad policy that will hurt, not improve education and hurt teachers.

Ask yourself: why is Obama the only Democrat favoring an idea championing by the likes of Jeb Bush and Multiple Choice Mitt? He is dead wrong on merit pay just like the Bushes and Romney.

[snowbear]

85. Rock on OBAMA !!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, baby!

[MonkeyFunk]

86. Yes

it is a political winner, because most people aren't dumb enough to think that success can be measured in every field of human endeavor EXCEPT for education.

People know there are good teachers and there are bad teachers. They can tell who they are. I can tell who they are. You can likely tell who they are. They expect that school administrators be able to do so, too.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

89. It is a winner because this Republican championed idea sounds good

But it has been proven to be a failure since 1710 in England. There is a reason the NEA and no other Democratic candidate sides with Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney on merit pay in education...

==because most people aren't dumb enough to think that success can be measured in every field of human endeavor EXCEPT for education.==

Except Congress? Why not have merit pay there? Obama seems to have no problem collecting the same salary as Ted Kennedy...

One of the fundamental problems with merit pay in education, which the NEA is aware of, is that it stifles creativity in education by limiting teachers to the sacred criteria set by the government for measuring performance. This will have an effect similar to No Child Left Behind in this key respect. Obama, Bush, Romney, and co. don't bother to mention this.

The other problems with it have been discussed in this thread and are known by those who have seen it implemented firsthand by Bush* with the federal workforce and the likes of Jeb Bush with respect to teachers.

[MonkeyFunk]

91. Your arguments aren't very powerful

Because Jeb Bush supported some form of merit pay doesn't mean the whole idea is a sham. That's not even an argument.

Same as your "300 years" argument. It's not really an argument. Just a factoid you think means something.

Again, most people recognize that there are good teachers and there are bad teachers, and would like to reward the good ones. That's a political winner for any party.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

92. And yours are very powerful?

You are simply reciting the talking points right-wingers have been spewing for years on this issue.

==Because Jeb Bush supported some form of merit pay doesn't mean the whole idea is a sham.==

Of course, but when you take a look at who supports this and and who doesn't (every other Democratic candidate and the NEA) it gives you a nice hint as to how good the idea is.

==Same as your "300 years" argument. It's not really an argument. Just a factoid you think means something.==

Yes, the fact that this policy has consistently failed for three centuries is an irrelevant minor factoid. :sarcasm: HE will magically make this policy suddenly work. :rofl:


==Again, most people recognize that there are good teachers and there are bad teachers, and would like to reward the good ones.==

Thankfully, the NEA does not have such a simplistic view of the issue and will fight against this bad policy should Obama, Romney, or any other Republican who supports it gets elected.

Speaking of arguments, you dodged an essential aspect of the progressive/conservative debate on merit pay in education:

==One of the fundamental problems with merit pay in education, which the NEA is aware of, is that it stifles creativity in education by limiting teachers to the sacred criteria set by the government for measuring performance. This will have an effect similar to No Child Left Behind in this key respect. Obama, Bush, Romney, and co. don't bother to mention this.==

P.S. how about a powerful argument from you on why Obama does not introduce a bill to apply merit pay to where he works? He has no problem with getting the same salary as effective senators like Ted Kennedy. :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

93. yes

and 50% of the members of the NEA are sub-average teachers.

Merit pay works in all fields of human endeavor. People don't accept the notion that education is the one and only exception.

Your argument, basically, is that you don't like any of the ways used to assess merit. Then let's discuss better ways to assess merit, instead of just throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible. I simply can't believe that. I can tell a good teacher from a bad teacher - I could even do it as a child!!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

94. 50% of senators are sub-average senators too

That isn't the real issue. The real issue is whether teachers are effective. Merit pay, as its three century old history shows, will simply reward a few teachers while weakening the overall education system. In fact, one reason Jeb Bush promoted this was to help increase support for school vouchers. How? By weakening the public school system. With what? Merit pay.

==Merit pay works in all fields of human endeavor.==

That isn't true. Its record in education and in the federal workforce shows otherwise.

What exactly do you think would happen if Obama practiced what he preaches to teachers and introduced merit pay in Congress? Suppose it passed. You say it works in all fields. What would it do in Congress? Would Obama suddenly be spurred into passing a bill or two in order to compete with effective senators like Ted Kennedy for receiving the maximum salary under a merit pay scheme?


==Then let's discuss better ways to assess merit, instead of just throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible. I simply can't believe that.==

That is like saying we could discuss better ways to prosecute the Iraq war instead of just giving up. Like Iraq, merit pay in education is a bad idea that cannot be salvaged.

==I can tell a good teacher from a bad teacher - I could even do it as a child!!==

And others would disagree with your assessments. Who decides merit is one of the fundamental problems of merit pay. One thing it inevitably abets is favoritism where the supervisor's favorite gets glowing reviews, even if he or she is not deserving of it under the given criteria.

MonkeyFunk, why do you think no other Democratic candidate supports this Republican idea? Are they all wrong on this like the NEA? Or do they and the NEA know things that Obama either does not know or is willing to disregard in order to score political points by appealing to conservatives with a conservative stance on merit pay and a Sister Souljah moment on education in front of the NEA?

[last_texas_dem]

103. All fields except teaching hardly include "merit pay"

as a way of determining how workers in the field are paid.

Whether those in favor of merit pay, if only because it's politically popular, like it or not, merit pay for teachers based upon "student performance" will never be a logical or fair way of assessing a teacher's pay. I agree with Obama on this issue on some level; I can support "merit pay" when it comes to certain aspects such as giving incentives to teachers who choose to teach in urban and poorly-performing districts, and I would consider supporting giving some financial incentives to teachers who are willing to teach subjects that are hard to find teachers for. But the fact that he seems to not rule out basing a teacher's pay on the performance of the students he or she happens to be assigned to teach is something that I find very troubling.

It's fine and good that you have known since childhood which teachers you consider to be good and which teachers you consider to be bad, but you know what they say about opinions...

[draft_mario_cuomo]

114. What you support are incentives, not merit pay

==I can support "merit pay" when it comes to certain aspects such as giving incentives to teachers who choose to teach in urban and poorly-performing districts, and I would consider supporting giving some financial incentives to teachers who are willing to teach subjects that are hard to find teachers for.==

Those things are not merit pay but incentives. I am sure other Democrats support them. The difference is only on merit pay.

I do agree with the rest of your post. :applause:

[Ethelk2044]

109. It is a good idea because the teachers who are not performing should be held accountable.

[last_texas_dem]

102. Here are some questions

Are you suggesting that the opinions of school administrators should determine what teachers are paid? How would this be at all fair? How would it even be done?

[SoxFan]

99. DMC...

Can you name one single issue where you (and your supposed candidate, John Edwards) take a position that is not in accordance with interest group orthodoxy?

[last_texas_dem]

95. I agree with Dodd

and I'm glad that he is calling attention to Obama's stance here. I don't disagree with some of the methods of increasing pay that Obama proposes, such as increasing pay for teachers willing to teach in poorly-performing districts. However, I disagree with his notion that teacher pay can be tied to student achievement, and I think this is something that should be avoided. (If he is indeed implying this; it's difficult to understand this portion of this article.) As far as I can see there is no fair way to do this without arbitrarily tying teacher pay to standardized tests or ultimately penalizing teachers who teach students of low socio-economic status. If there is any fair way to do this, I would like to hear it; based on the article, Obama doesn't seem to provide any specific way in which it can be done. On this particular issue, I believe he may be being overly optimistic.

[calteacherguy]

96. I will not vote for him because of this. nt

[MasonJar]

107. As a teacher, I can say merit pay is a poor policy. Why? Who or what determines merit?

Test scores? Principals? Tests scores are a phony way to make W's brother money. Principals are often wack jobs themselves. Etc. Most of the teachers that I have encountered over many years and in many different schools are truly dedicated individuals. Some get the good classes and so get the accolades. Other meanwhile struggle to teach and control the uninterested and the recalcitrant. It is not a fair world out there; there is a lot of merit in the "teacher" world. I say treat teachers like professionals and raise all their pay.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

115. Great post, thanks for sharing your professional insight on this matter

You raised good questions and good points. Just don't hold your breath waiting for answers from defenders of the Republican Romney/Jeb Bush/etc. idea "progressive" Barack Obama is supporting.