Photos: Barack Obama campaigns in the South today, Birmingham and Huntsville, AL

[flpoljunkie]

Democratic Presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama D-Ill., makes remarks during a fundraiser, Monday, July 9, 2007, in Birmingham, Ala. (AP Photo/Rob Carr)


Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., greets well-wishers before a fundraiser in Huntsville, Ala., Monday, July 9, 2007. (AP Photo/The Huntsville Times, Eric Schultz)


Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., holds a book he signed for a well-wisher after a fundraiser in Huntsville, Ala., Monday, July 9, 2007. (AP Photo/The Huntsville Times, Eric Schultz)

[illinoisprogressive]

1. thanks for pics. I was wondering how this went in birmingham.

[zulchzulu]

2. Very cool pics

The Obama Train keeps rolling along....

[Cha]

3. Thanks for the pics of Obama

on the campaign trail..it does my heart good just to see this happening.

[Nimrod2005]

4. Love this guy!!!

[calteacherguy]

5. I will not vote for him unless he retracts his support for "merit pay" for teachers.

The idea is a right-wing talking point, and completely unworkable.

[maximusveritas]

7. He never gave his support

He just said it was something to consider, only if it was done in partnership with the teachers and addressed their concerns. So it shouldn't be something to with-hold your vote over.

[calteacherguy]

9. Merit pay is not something to consider, and yes it should be something to withhold my vote over. nt

[draft_mario_cuomo]

17. Thankfully, apparently no other Democrats are (although Romney and others support it) nt

[Ethelk2044]

26. All people should be paid based on if they reach their goals. I have teachers in my family

and they are no different than me. My pay is based on whether or not I achieve my Objectives for the year. Teachers pay should be based on whether they achieve their objectives.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

32. The sounds good but who defines the goals? How do you measure it? Who evaluates it?

What happens when teachers change their teaching to tailor it to the merit pay criteria, instead of teaching in the best possible way? This effect will be similar to No Child Left Behind's effect of forcing teachers to "teach to the test." Instead of that they will teach to the merit pay criteria, which will almost certainly primarily rely on testing.

All the questions I raised are fundamental problems this bad idea has. Teachers know it, others who have seen it in practice know it, every other Democratic candidate knows it. Only Obama, Romney, Jeb Bush, and other Republicans do not know it.

P.S. why does Obama have no problem collecting the same salary as an effective senator like Ted Kennedy? If merit pay is so great why doesn't he propose it for where he works? ;)

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

29. Let me guess...

You support Edwards?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

31. calteacherguy is not exactly a fan of Edwards, to put it mildly!

I think there is a hint as to why he opposes "merit pay", like virtually all teachers, in his screen name. ;)

[bling bling]

8. I do believe I posted the link to his full speech for you. Did you read it?

Actually, I posted the entire speech IN A POST to you. Did you read it? I had hoped, especially as a teacher, that you would take the extra step to read what it was that he said rather than just swallow whole the simplistic newspaper article. The media is so, so disappointing the way they take a very complex and thoughtful speech and turn it into a "merit pay" headline.

[calteacherguy]

10. The problem with merit pay is that there is no way to determine merit.

So much depends on the demographic and student population, which can change from year to year and classroom to classroom. Two teachers teaching the same subject next door to each other in a school my have extremely different test scores, and it's possible that the teacher with the lower test scores is the one with more "merit" because of the students in the room, not the teacher.

The concept is unworkable, and it's way past time to bury it. Obama should have done his homework. He will not have my vote or the vote of my collegues if he endorses merit pay, I can assure you of that.

"He said he would release the specific policies for teachers' pay in the next few months." I'll be reading the specifics.

[maximusveritas]

11. Don't pretend you speak for all your colleagues. You don't.

More and more teachers are opening up to this idea.
You can't just say it's "unworkable" and pretend that proves it. There's no evidence to back up your assertion. You seem to be thinking in terms of the simplest form of merit pay, paying according to the tests, but that's obviously not what Obama is talking about. To not even consider an idea like this seems terribly close-minded.

[calteacherguy]

12. What is the idea? I can tell you all the teachers at my school are against merit pay.

I know that much for certain.

Please explain to me how "merit" is to be measured. The biggest problem with this idea is that it deflects attention away from the real problems facing public education. The problem is not with the teachers.

[jsamuel]

13. You see, you can't be right that teachers don't want merit pay, because Obama supports it.

First people have been arguing that he doesn't want it at all. Then you show them he said it. Then they say your not a good teacher if you oppose it. It couldn't possibly be that Obama has the wrong position.

:sarcasm:

Look, I don't like going negative, but Obama is wrong here and I am tired of all the non-teachers here telling all the teachers and teachers' spouses that they are bad teachers because they don't agree with Obama. Every teacher my wife knows opposes merit pay too.

[bling bling]

18. I don't care if people disagree with Obama. Seriously.

But I just ask that people read what he said and disagree with the points he made in his speech. Instead, people are using the simplistic synopsis done by the newspaper. I've read both. The newspaper article was written in typical MSM fashion. Being an Edwards supporter, you ought to be fully aware of how the media is.

The arguments against Obama on this issue on this site seem a whole lot more simplistic than the complex and thoughtful points that Obama made. The simplistic nature of the "merit pay is a bad idea" argument is what is making me think that people just read the newspaper article, not the actual speech.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

24. That is inaccurate spin

This line of argument was made in the Dodd/Obama thread. As is the case regarding other issues, when BO's staunch spinners were asked to provide the "real context" they produced nothing. Perhaps you can buck this trend?

==The arguments against Obama on this issue on this site seem a whole lot more simplistic than the complex and thoughtful points that Obama made. The simplistic nature of the "merit pay is a bad idea" argument is what is making me think that people just read the newspaper article, not the actual speech.==

The dispute is not about his overall education policy. He made many good points before the NEA. The dispute is about one aspect of his policy, merit pay. Merit pay is a lot more complex than BO's supporters and conservative backers of this make it out to be. The NEA knows. It has seen it in states like Florida (Jeb Bush) and knows the 300 year old history of "merit pay" in education.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

19. The extent of the hero worship of some is astounding

He walks on water according to some.

[last_texas_dem]

28. Can you provide some support for this claim?

>>More and more teachers are opening up to this idea.>>

I can't imagine many teachers opening up to the idea that their pay should be based on what students they happen to be assigned to teach, but I've heard stranger things before, so I'm willing to believe it if there is any factual evidence to back it up. I will say that I come from a family of teachers and have never heard any evidence of this idea being popular among them or their fellow teachers.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

33. There isn't. It is a right-wing talking point to promote "merit pay", a GOP idea nt

[bling bling]

14. That's why he said the teachers would develop the program.

You're talking about merit pay in a way that seems pretty disconnected from the scope of what Obama actually said. I can only assume you didn't actually read what he said, rather, you read the newspaper article.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

15. After he forces them to accept a bad idea they oppose

The fact they will have a say in mitigating the damage it does is hardly praiseworthy.

[bling bling]

20. I stopped caring about your opinion on Obama weeks ago.

You're on a full-throttle mission to be as verbally aggressive against Obama as you can whenever his name comes up. I haven't determined whether you are just amusing yourself or are being serious. I don't really care because the bottom line is you've lost your credibility with me on the issue of Obama.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

21. As far as I know--and I could be wrong--I did not produce the NEA's position against merit pay

I have no idea why they don't realize that Obama will magically make the 300 year old failed, fundamentally flawed (conservative) idea work. :sarcasm: I am also shocked that, while Republicans like Romney and Jeb Bush see how great merit pay is, not one Democratic candidate aside from BO does.

[bling bling]

22. You must have missed the part where I said I don't care what you have to say about him anymore. n/t

[draft_mario_cuomo]

23. I know. I do not run the NEA, whose opinion matters a lot on education

Call the NEA and ask them why they have opposed this conservative idea for years. Ask them what they know that apparently HRC, JE, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, and Gravel know but Romney, Obama, Jeb Bush, and co. do not know.

Personally, I would rather take the NEA's word (if I did not know firsthand how bad "merit pay" is after seeing it in the federal workforce after * implemented it) over the word of a vote hungry politician.

Ignoring opinions is fine; ignoring inconvenient truths--especially about a vital issue and the stance of someone who may become president--is another matter.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

16. That is the truth and what the 300 year history of the concept shows nt

[last_texas_dem]

27. I agree with you on this

As long as Obama is supportive of tying teacher pay to the performance of the students they are assigned, I would have a very difficult time supporting him. From what I have read of his comments on the subject, he does not seem to rule this out altogether, but only rules out basing teacher pay on the standardized test scores of their students. I am hoping that further consideration of this issue by Obama will cause him to rule it out as unworkable, as there does not seem to be any fair way of doing this.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

30. Maybe you'd like to read the speech itself?

link is here: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/education/20070705_Prepared_text_of_Obama_s_speech_to_the_NEA.html

The part that seems to give you a difficult time would be this i think
-
And if you excel at helping your students achieve success, your success will be valued and rewarded as well. Here's the key: We can find new ways to increase pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them and not based on some arbitrary test score. That's how we're going to close the achievement gap that exists in this country and that's how we're going to start treating teachers like the professionals you are.
-
To me that seems fairly sensible to be honest, work with the teachers to find a good and sensible way to reward them instead of making a plan without them and say 'this is how it will be'.

Some other interesting parts of it
-
And while we're at it, let's work with teachers and principals to finally develop assessments that teach our kids to become more than just good test-takers. The goal of educational testing should be the same as medical testing - to diagnose a student's needs so you can help address them. Tests should not be designed as punishment for teachers and students, they should be used as tools to help prepare our children to grow and compete in a knowledge economy. Tests should support learning, not just accounting.
-
One last point. There's a lot of talk out there about accountability in education. I share that concern, and I've called for more accountability in our schools myself. But I also believe that before we can hold our teachers accountable for the results our schools need, we have to hold ourselves accountable for giving teachers the support that they need. That's where accountability starts with a government that puts its money where its mouth is, and parents and community members who instill the value of education in their students. I am tired of hearing teachers blamed for our collective failures.
-
But we need to start doing our part first. When it comes to education in America, we need to start holding ourselves accountable. This goes for our government and our leaders. It also goes for parents. There is no policy or program that can substitute for a parent who is deeply involved in their child's education from day one - who is willing to turn off the TV, put away the video games, and read to their child, or help with homework, or attend those parent/teacher conferences. As parents too, many of you know what I'm talking about here.
-

Limited myself to 4 parts of the speech since i'm unsure if that four paragraph rule are used for speeches as well, and to toss in something from an news article:

Linda Nelson, the president of the Iowa NEA chapter, said merit pay is an idea that isn't going away.

"We need to be at the table. We need to be a part of that conversation, and that's exactly what Sen. Obama said," Nelson said.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

34. Teachers can easily see through this

I have noticed some BO supporters invoke the speech as if it somehow changes the reality of his position on merit pay. That won't work with teachers. They recognize what merit pay is and will not be fooled by other good aspects of his education program. No one is arguing about the rest of his policy. He has many good ideas. The dispute is on merit pay.

==Linda Nelson, the president of the Iowa NEA chapter, said merit pay is an idea that isn't going away.

"We need to be at the table. We need to be a part of that conversation, and that's exactly what Sen. Obama said," Nelson said.==

That is misleading. The reason the idea is not going to go away is because conservatives (and some Third Way DLC-type Democrats) love it and constantly promote it. The article does not mention this fact. Second, the NEA opposes merit pay and has always done so. The misleading quote makes it appear the NEA is suddenly open to this 300 year old failed idea because Obama, the magic man, is proposing it. It is not. What Nelson is saying is that if Obama is elected and rams through merit pay it will be preferable to have them at the table shaping its contours. In other words, they oppose it but if Obama forces them to accept it they would like to mitigate its damage. They would have the same position if, let's say, Mitt Romney, another merit pay advocate, became president. Does that mean they suddenly support Romney on merit pay? Of course not.

Obama is a great candidate, has many good ideas and many positive qualities. He does not walk on water, though. This idea has been a proven failure since 1710 in England. Teachers know this. They know why it consistently failed (as it did recently in Florida under Jeb Bush). They know its flaws are fundamental and that no one, even a man some of his supporters compare to Lincoln, can change that.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

35. Some of us

actually think it can work when done right, in this case working with the teachers would be a large step well on that way.

Most against merit pay seems to be against it mainly due to thinking the merit will be based on tests that students do which is not what Obama wants(there are many options to base somebodies merits on, and i'm sure that both Obama and the teachers will be able to work something sensible out)

And i've never claimed he can walk on water, nor can he create a ton of food from a few fishes and some bread due to the fact that he is a politician, but as an foreigner i do consider him the best chance for the US of those running currently.

To preempt your 'show me the difference between him and Hillary' i'll just tell you to look at what he has done during the run as well as what he states he plans to do(him releasing his earmarks being one amongst a number)

It also says something that he has the courage to step into a room that for the last few days have claimed the highest concentration per cubic inch of persons opposed to merit pay and called for something that sounded a little bit like... merit pay. And he must have said something of interest due to the fact that he was not booed or hissed at by them but that a number actually seemed somewhat interested (some parts of this paragraph was taken from a different website)

And what is misleading with Nelson's statement? she seems to think that merit pay wont vanish(likely true) and liked that Obama would include them where others have not

Also i disagree that its a proven failure as i've seen different versions of it work here in Norway as well as elsewhere in Europe(Keep in mind that you disliking it does not mean its a failure, nor does me thinking it works make that a fact, both are our views based on what we have observed or read)

[Grandrose]

6. K&R (Thanks)

Great pictures and just to think about where they were!:) :kick:

[snowbear]

25. Must've been cool to also see Charles Barkley there!

I'm not crazy about basketball.. but I love Charles Barkley!



I remember reading that he plans to run for Governor of Alabama (eventually).. Not sure when though..