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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 03:51 AM
Original message
X-Posted: It's my Party and I'll Cry if I want to
Honestly, how many of us are really happy with the way the Dem leadership seems to be handling Bushco's obstinancy and obvious disdain not only for we, the People, but the branch of government charged with its oversight?

All over the blogosphere, liberal voices are crying out for justice. "Impeach the bastards!" we read. But, unfortunately, impeachment's "off the table." But, well, maybe it isn't. The investigations are being stonewalled (at some point their guilt is going to be so transparent that they'll be down to their last twenty percent of knuckle-dragging knuckleheads) and it looks as though the media is actually starting to turn.

We're watching everything they're doing with some level of impatience, wondering why it's taking so long to do ANYTHING notable. Our qualms are not calmed by one of those we expect to take on the administration publicly declaring what sounds suspiciously like admiration for someone we've grown to both distrust and despise.

We wonder how many of our "representatives" are too beholden to corporate interests to work on OUR behalf. Not just the Repugs, but some of the Dems as well. Some people blame the DLC for this. Others rise up to defend the DLC.

I don't know WHAT organization was behind the Dems voting "aye" on the damn bankruptcy bill, but those who did should be ashamed of themselves, if not tarred and feathered and ran out of D.C. on a rail.

Those who were elected to take on this administration better damn well be putting everything they got into the effort. If they can't wrest the evidence from Bushco's toxic grasp, maybe they should just start publicly extrapolating what they THINK that evidence might be. Sure, the RW pundits will castigate them for it, but it seems pretty obvious Bushco is hiding something that would cause them, and their party, some serious damage.

If this is played correctly, and to the end, we could paint nearly all the Republicans with a GW brush and cripple the party for a generation, at least. The people need to be reminded, as each new thing comes to light, that not only did Bushco do all this, but the Republican controlled congress stood by and LET them do it without a single word of protest. In many cases, they helped by pushing things like the IWR and the Patriot Act.

Most of Congress, with a few notable exceptions, was so caught up in the post 9/11 panic and rush to war that they never stopped to ask a single real question about what they were being told. How is it that WE, the outsiders, the bloggers, the citizen-activists on the other side of a electronic connection, could see the truth when all these "insiders" could not?

It looks like capitulation, cowardice, and (dare I say it) corruption at very heart of our Democracy. It used to be that the Dems stood for the People, or, at least, that was the perception. In the past couple decades, more and more people have come of age truly believing that NO ONE actually represented them. We can revile them for their "apathy," perhaps, but maybe it's not so much apathy as political despair.

Nader caught a lot of heat for (among other things) saying that there was no discernable difference between the parties. I'm happy to say that I don't agree with that statement. Problem is that there isn't a more noticable difference between many of the individual members on both sides of the aisle.

Part of that's the way Congress is structured. More conservative Dems have a better chance of winning in certain districts, and need to vote that way. Maybe there should be a general litmus test for claiming status as a Democrat, however, and maybe, just maybe, some of these people wouldn't pass it.

If I had my druthers, the criteria would be as follows--

Support for:

Universal, single-payer healthcare in America.

A formal apology to Iraq, the withdrawal of the vast majority of troops upon negotiation with the U.N. to step in to take up the slack, and the payment of war reparations.

The ejection of all war profiteering American corporations from Iraq, with foreign companies being brought in to take over the rebuilding once the peacekeeping forces had helped stabilize it somewhat.

Investigation, impeachment, and prosecution of Bushco for not only high crimes and misdemeanors, but also for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The restoration of rights lost through the passage of Patriot Acts I and II.

The repeal of corporate personhood.

Public financing of elections.

Transparent elections with verifiable ballots.

Equal rights for ALL adult citizens, regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation.

An end to the Drug War as we know it.

A resolution to do everything possible to make sure abortion becomes or remains, indeed, "safe, legal, and rare."

Vastly increased funding for education, from head start to the university and everything in between.

A resolve to pursue clean sources of alternate energy and to combat global warming on every possible level.


I could add more, but I'd settle for these.


So. The Democratic Party is by far preferable to the Republican Party. But it sure as hell isn't what it should be and I think we all know it. So we can continue to stand here and watch while collaborators and enablers allow the Republicans to skate from their crimes yet again, or we can exert as much pressure as we possibly can to make them realize that we, the People, deserve better than that.

And, as a last note, I'd like to gently recommend that anyone who's in actual contact with Cindy ask her to plunge her dagger a bit more carefully next time. Assault not the Dem Party as a whole (for those are a lot of us associated with it who aren't playing the game by Republican rules) but those who deserve it the most.

And she should double-check her historical facts as well, and explain things like "Party of Slavery" a bit more clearly.

'Course, that's just the opinion of someone who's been behind her the whole way, and thinks she would be far better off if she were a bit more careful in her methods at this point in time.

So if I'm a Dem, and if I'm here posting as a Dem, and am expected to follow the rules regarding supporting Democratic candidates and the Democratic Party as a whole, well, I expect the same respect and loyalty from the party in turn.

Otherwise, it's my damn Party too, and I'll cry and bitch and moan about it if I damn well want to.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. i have changed my mind on Impeachment, hire a $10 hack lawer to fill out the forms.. the evidence is
monument.. this is a no brainer.. fill out the forms and F'n vote on it.. should take a day and a half.. and 3 people
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It serves no purpose w/o the votes to convict in the Senate...
all it would do is create a stir, just like it did w/Clinton, and then nothing....impeachment is a complete waste of time at this point.

Pelosi is doing a fine job outflanking the administration. Resignations, investigations, preparations and case building, not just to beat bush into a corner...but in the long run, completely destroy the neo-con movement. This is a far more worthy and attainable goal, than a quick, "we got you" moment from impeachment that has no chance of conviction at this point. The R's were just as foolish about this during the Clinton debacle...they played to a minimal percentage of their base, and came off looking like jackasses. Several in the R leadership lost their positions because it was such a stupid thing to do at that point...we'd be falling into the same trap.

Without the votes to convict...impeachment is a waste of time...far better to tear down the support structure, and neuter them....which is precisely what is happening.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. rasputin1952, you just nailed it. In fact, MOST of the things in the OP...
...would never fly because of lack of votes.

Political reality.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thanks...I've been at ths along time, and while I am no politician...
I know how the system works. Under Pelosi, the underpinnings of the neo-con movement are being destroyed. Look at the massive resignations in the places we never hear of, underlings in Justice, Federal Labor Relations Board, EPA, Dept of the Interior, etc. The people who actually make policy are leaving in droves so they don't get investigated and prosecuted. The heads of Dept's are sticking around, and they can and hopefully will be prosecuted, but those who do the "grunt" work are bailing so fast, I'm surprised more media attention hasn't been given to them. Goodling's buddies have been routed...leave Gonzo in there, he's been neutered....getting rid of him would actually protect more of the bushbot renegades.

Pelosi pushed for a flanking movement, something that this administration wasn't prepared for...it's working, and we should be pretty darn happy about it. Not all things in the political arena are demanding of spotlights and whistles. Often, the most important things barely get noticed....:D
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Except that if you don't Impeach, they will all be pardoned.
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 05:48 AM by fasttense
Bush has already shown that he will use the power of the pardon to protect his cronies that commit crimes on his behalf. What is to stop him from a blanket pardon to all his administration? What is there to stop him if he resigns one day short of his term and gets Dick to pardon him? The Dancing Supremes will surely uphold the pardons.

Impeachment right before the elections in 2008 would serve the purpose of airing all of the administrations crimes to the public (twice, once in the House and again in the Senate) and then force repuke Senators to support a repuke leader with a 20 percent approval rating. It will show the world that repukes are more interested in party loyalty than in the good of the country.

Besides, the polls I've seen have the majority of the people supporting Impeachment, unlike when Clinton was dragged through the mud for protecting his girlfriend.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. He can pardon them at any time...not the brightest thing he could do...
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 06:05 AM by rasputin1952
but there is nothing to stop him.

As for polls of Americans wanting impeachment...99% of the people could want it...but w/o 60 confirmed Senators to convict....it is a waste of time and effort.

There are many ways we can show our dislike and contempt for bush....but breaking down the neo-con infrastructure is far more important than seeking a little revenge. We need to kill the rabid dog that is "neo-conism", not beat it and toss it in a cage. The neo-con agenda is arguably the worst thing that has ever happened to this nation. If we don't excise it from government, it will come back in another form. By taking out the infrastructure, tearing out its foundation...we are saving the country. Impeachment and a dud trial because of a lack of conviction, actually empowers the neo-cons...:(
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Of couse, not pursuing it into the public sphere, as we've seen
simply results in them resurrecting their evil selves into positions of power a few years later.

We can't disassemble the neocons if we don't investigate them fully.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. They are being investigated, and quite fully...
look at what is happening. Not everything is in the wide open spaces of DU and the MSM. Often these things are done in committee rooms, or even in hallways as well as offices. When Nixon was brought down, there was no great knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes, but we can see that in the Senate, there are changes in motion...in the House, it takes more time because of the size of the institution.

All of these things take time, many times, rather than charges being bropugth into the public's eye, people quit, or become non-entities in teh government workings. It pays to watch the periphery to see what is ahppening.

In the Senate....Lugar turning around is a huge step in the right direction, and I can pretty well guarantee that the WH checked it's collective pants for soiling after Lugar came out against bush.

Big things are happening, and you can see them if you look closely and know what to look for...:D



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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Unless it becomes a very messy public fight
we're going to have to do it again in about ten to fifteen years. Do you think we can afford it again?

I don't.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Not necessarily...those are GOP tactics. When one breaks the system...
and takes out the foundation, it is gone for good. Another form may eventually come forth, but it can be shot to pieces as well...the neo-con form of government and the movement itself, needs to be shredded, and that is happening right now. If it returns in another guise, it will be dealt with.

bush single handedly has set the GOP back for a generation, maybe more. As long as we remain vigilant, and don't become a s Laizze Faire as the GOP, we can control it.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm pretty sure that's what they thought the last time...
Look at the results.

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. There are many reasons we are in this mess...not the least are two
contested elections.

I for one, have been active in politics for some 40 years, I have seen the cycles; what I haven't seen is the neo-con "revolution" before. These people need to be crushed. If they are permitted to continue, they will take this nation back to the 19th Century, perhaps even back to the Dark Ages. Crushing this is a process that takes time.

I can't tell you what will happen in 10, 15 or 20 years, my Crystal Ball dropped and broke ages ago, and it was rarely correct anyway. Here and now, we have to set up the system that destroys neo-conservatism, there will be no "next time", if we don't nail this movement into a coffin and sit on it, we will wake up in a fiefdom...and we will have lost what dream there was 231 years ago. If we have to fight something else in the future that would destroy our nation, we'll do it then, right now, we've got to put our effort into the present danger.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. should we only act where victory is possible?
or are you confining your theme solely to impeachment? is your argument that nothing is served by trying if losing is the inevitable result? because, if so, I disagree. sometimes, even in a hopeless cause, putting a team on the field is a starting point. making the case, even a hopeless case, still gives voice to your ideas. it begins the process of persuasion.

sometimes even hopeless battles are worth fighting. and while I don't think this is the time for impeachment, yet, I dislike the fact that you don't even weigh the issue of justice in considering how to proceed. if evidence exists that bush is guilty of violating the Constitution, it seems a perfectly reasonable argument can be made that the Congress has an obligation to take that case to the American people.

you want to measure the vote count based on today's situation. do you think the day after the Watergate break-in that Dems had the votes to impeach Nixon? how about a month later? how about a year later? the point is that we should continue the investigations and NOT close the door on impeachment. we should not start impeachment hearings without better information. but neither should we focus solely on "looking like jackasses" and "votes to convict". part of our focus should include the evidence we discover as the investigations continue.

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The votes are there for impeachment...but why waste the time and effort?
Impeachment is nothing more than saying..."Hey, we think we have a case". If your case is not built rock solid, you lose in the Senate, you've taken the bar down even lower than Gingrich did. IMO, bush has committed many impeachable offenses...but I know my opinion in this matter, as far as getting things moving toward impeachment, is worthless. Think about it...who's going to listen to me on impeachment on Capitol Hill?

People are working on this. Just because you can't see what is happening behind doors in Committee meetings does not mean, by any means, that the D led House isn't pursuing many avenues of attack.

Not everything is discussed by the D's, R's or the MSM. One needs to see what is happening to realize the effort being put forth. As I have posted throughout this thread, people are leaving in droves, they've been had, and they know it. First thing to do is to look at what is happening in many, if not all of the bureaucratic agencies...the R plants are being driven out, like rats from a burning barn.

Real power lays in the hands of those who make policy, get rid of them, and the neo-con agenda dies. bush has been effectively cornered, he will lash out, (he already has, and has even tried the "poor little me" scenario). Progress is being made. We do not have to see a march up to the scaffold to gain...Madame LaFarge need not be sitting by the blade knitting to see what is happening. Far too often, too many people want heads to roll immediately...these things take time, and a plan must be in place when the Goomers fall. Does anyone actually believe that by impeaching bush and cheney, thereby leaving the presidency to Pelosi would get past 60 Senators? The R's would rather be set themselves afire than to have that happen! I am a pragmatist...planning and execution of a good plan are essential to gain...any fool can rush in, great way to get burned and lose what you cherish.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. how much time and effort, it is already drawn up, just vote on it..
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. we need a statement about the false reasons to go to war for history
before they spinn him into another Ronald Ray Gun, and they name everything after him
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Not a whole lot is going to be named after bush, maybe a few ...
Porta-Potties or something, but as much as a disaster as bush is, about the the only thing w/bush's name on it would be...."US 911 Highway To Hell".
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. What is that old saying Will Rodgers once
said about the Democrats, " I do not belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat."
I do thank you
Ben David
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