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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 07:18 PM
Original message
Poll question: Cindy Sheehan Poll:
Do you support her ...or you against her...
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Other
I Know that Cindy was the FIRST to Confront Bush about his War and she Paid her Dues... But I don't think she should be running against Nancy or for Congress. She needs some political experience before she gets in the ring with the snakes.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Other - I do not see how it is exclusive.
I support her and her previous actions, but not her run against Pelosi.

Your framing is reminiscent of Rove: for them or against them.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. yeah, i deeply respect her
i have no idea how anyone could lose a child in a war and somehow find a way to stand on the national stage and speak truth to power. I sure as hell couldn't have done it. most of us are paralyzed with fear or apathy and have far less trauma to overcome.

Sheehan did not live her life in the political arena. It's absurd to expect her to have "perfect pitch" with every statement she issues. Sometimes it doesn't come across well. I couldn't care less. Sometimes, perhaps greater diplomacy or patience might be called for. I couldn't care less.

Very few of us could have had the magic deep inside us that Sheehan has demonstrated. She's "just a citizen". She's a commoner. She's one of us. And, in her darkest hour, she stood up and led. I call that extraordinary by any measure.

And the Pelosi business? She, like any citizen, has every right to compete for power. What kind of un-democratic bullshit is being sold here on DU? The truth is, I like Pelosi. I respect her. What I have ZERO RESPECT for are DU'ers who want to shut third parties out of the national dialog and push them off the political stage. Maybe, just maybe, a little pressure from the left will move the dialog just a wee bit in that direction. the argument that it will lead to republican victories so the left should just STFU is crap. the left exists and it will not be silent. if Democrats choose not to include the left in their planks and policies, they do so at their own peril.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I met her and she's REAL....she's on a journey of discover about how to use the system as it has
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 07:38 PM by KoKo01
used her. She's working her way through her angst like any passionate citizen (like so many here on Liberal Internets are) and her finding "her way" might not be perfect...but she isn't a member of a Privileged THINK THANK or part of INNER DC BELTWAY CROWD...so she's doing the best she can with the OUTRAGE of those of us who've been at this awhile.

If she stumbles and has "fits and starts" then that's her RIGHT as a CITIZEN...and the RIGHT of those of us observing her to watch and understand as we go through our OWN ANGST at what we've observed happening to the Shredding of our Constitution and the Lying and Cheating Criminality that NEVER IS PUNISHED...from the White House to the Congress to the Judicial to Wall Street right into the HEART OF AMERICA... WHARE IS THE ACCOUNTABILILITY? WHERE?

We all are feeling our own ways in fits and starts bumping along trying to make sense of WHY what we were taught in CIVICS AND HISTORY in SCHOOL ...NO LONGER APPLIES IN BUSH AMERICA OR IN THE PRESIDENTS SINCE NIXON WHO FOLLOWED LEADING UP TO STOLEN ELECTION 2000!

Cindy hasn't allowed ALL THE PASSION to be wrung out of her SOUL as she's watched the caving going on in DC...she's followed a path that many of us have followed of our Conscience! We don't know where it's going...but we KNOW SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG!!!!

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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. "Perfect Pitch" ??
Ah - just the analogy I need.

I think she's almost completely tone deaf.

One shouldn't audition for the New York Philaharmonic if you can't even keep a tune, or time, ya know. It helps to know how to play an instrument. Play it well. Have experience playing the BIG
DEMANDING pieces. You can't walk of the stage because you just realized you don't know how to put your instrument together, nor indeed, how to read music.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. just the analogy i needed too ...
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 08:34 PM by welshTerrier2
no point having average citizens speak out on the issues ... unless they are REAL leaders, the common man should just know his station in life ... oh, it's fine if little Cindy wants to talk to her next door neighbor or her friends, but she is not sophisticated or even very smart ...

who the hell does she think she is? she has no right to run for office ... she has no right to earn her way to the national stage by challenging bush on the worst foreign policy blunder in our nation's history ... only lawyers and sophisticated corporate leaders have the savvy to address the complicated issues facing the country ...

now, take someone like Hillary ... she's sure not tone deaf ... and even if she is, she hires all sorts of people to do polls and run focus focus groups ... she has fancy speech coaches and speech writers ... the fact that she was still opposed to timetables to get out of Iraq as recently as last January shouldn't be an issue ... the fact that she has no health care plan shouldn't be an issue ... the fact that she sucks in millions and millions from K Street shouldn't be an issue ... the fact that she said she voted for the IWR because she trusted the President shouldn't be an issue ...

now there's a wonderful candidate who's entitled to run ... but Cindy Sheehan is tone deaf ... unlike Hillary, she can't hear the cries of those who have known from the beginning that this war would end in tragedy ... unlike Hillary, Cindy can't hear the shredding of the Constitution by bush and his cronies ... unlike Hillary, Cindy can't see the crushing of our democracy that the military-industrial complex brings ... or do I have this all back asswards???

well, someone sure is tone deaf here ... let's just leave it at that ...
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. heh -
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 09:23 PM by mzteris
no. You learn how to play an instrument and read music and work your way up through the ranks just like everybody else.


edit to add: That's how they ferret out the ones WITH talent. By going through the process. Start in beginner band. Advance to highschool band. College/University. Maybe get a scholarship. Go to Julliard or some other institution to PREPARE YOU.

But if you have no talent - it doesn't matter anyway. Some people can't carry a tune in a bucket.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Well, that's what punk bands are for.
Play and sing even if you have not talent for either.

Cindy can get out there and sing off key if she wants to. People will either listen or they won't.

But what do I know, really. I'm from the party that supported slavery and started every war in the 20th Century (can you tell those two bum notes have stuck in my craw?)
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. let me ask you this ...
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 11:10 PM by welshTerrier2
is there a reason to believe that there is any difference between the two major parties when it comes to the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about?

i see the draining of the national budget for excessive military spending as severely weakening the country in a variety of ways. we are unable to afford national health care for all. our public education system is no longer globally competitive. we jump from one war to the next to the next while defense contractors make billions in profits.

and when I look at the parties, it's hard to see which one wants to cut-back on defense spending, especially weapons and technology spending, to strengthen the country in non-military ways.

what do you think about that? maybe I should make this post its own thread. i really wonder what DU'ers think about this issue.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I tend to see individual Dems as opposed to "The Party"
Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 12:40 AM by LittleClarkie
That's probably a cop out, but that's how I look at things. I see the Dems around me, who all have different ideals. To me there's a world of difference between the Dems I know and the Repubicans I know. To me the Democratic Party is all the people iy contains, not just the leadership.

In a way, I think what you're describing is not the Democratic Party or the Repubican Party, but people in power and the temptations therein, period, regardless of affiliation. I wonder if you gave a third party the kind of money and influence that the two big parties have, if they'd fare any better after a while. They might start out with the best of intentions, but one does have to get re-elected, doesn't one.

This view might be the reason I support specific Dems, like Kerry, but only give enough to the party itself to pay my yearly dues. The last time I gave money, $50, I gave it to Kerry.

Did that make any sense?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. that's not a cop out
i think it's fine to look at the individual records of each Democrat. in fact, i think it's important to do so. the thing is though, it's hard to see how the big name Dems are much different than the republicans on this critical issue. there are lots of Democrats, mostly in the House, who would love to reduce defense spending. In the Senate though, not so much ...

And Kerry? well, lucy, you have some splainin' to do ... i think we should cut the defense budget by 50% or more. am I an expert on the subject? not at all. but i do see a country with a failing infrastructure. i do go to local town meetings and see people fighting about whether we can afford yet more taxes to pay for schools. i don't blame either side. people are losing their homes because of high local taxes. and i certainly understand parents wanting better schools for their kids. what Democrat is willing to cut the defense budget to strengthen education? and global warming? we could be on the brink of killing ourselves. we have to have real mass transit. that costs money too. it has to come from the bloated defense budget. Democrats? Kerry? who's with me on this? maybe I'm just running around in my own private Idaho. I just don't see serious proposals coming from any leading Democrat. I wish I did.

As to your point about third parties becoming corrupted after a while ... how depressing is that? The old saying is that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that might likely be the case with third parties. In a very recent interview Ralph Nader did on Democracy Now, Amy Goodman asked him about whether Gore would be devoured by the corporate system if he became President. Nader seems to have a lot of respect for what Gore is doing. His answer? It would be inevitable. The one distinction he did make, however, and this is something too many of DU's politics first people don't get, is that he also said that the only people who might not be corruptible are people who came out of political movements. Frankly, I've kind of been looking at Gore as qualifying under that standard. I do see his point though. Those with deeply held beliefs are far less likely to be bought than those whose first objective is "just winning" ...
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. but it's the rare garage band
that wins a

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maggiegault Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
39. No, They Just Steal The Bucket
You know, like George W. Bush did. Owning a third-rate ball team and being a cocaine-addled drunk. Bailing on his military service and having his Big Daddy pay his way through Yale. Riding on Big Daddy's name to steal the Oval Office.

Like * did, right? Seems to me that there are those who don't even feel that they need to bother themselves with music and yet still manage to run the damn orchestra.

I lost my brother to the * war for oil, and it's these "band members" who sent him and his fellow troops to their deaths. Cindy Sheehan speaks for me and for Andy...especially Andy, since, like her son Casey, he can no longer speak for himself.


:wtf: with the DLC posts around this place?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. that's so sad, Maggie ...
Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 12:48 AM by welshTerrier2
i'm so sorry ... i really hate every bastard who sent your brother over there ... i hope they all hang for what they did ... all of them ... i'm beyond sick of DU's "band of apologists" ... the Democrats controlled the Senate and they brought the IWR to the floor for a vote ... we should never forget that ... what the hell were they thinking??????????

and some of them are still at it ... more funding ... more time for bush to "get it right" ... what kind of crap are some of these "progressives" peddling around here? it's truly unbelievable ...
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maggiegault Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Thank you for what you said. Today has been a really tough day for some reason.

I really miss my brother, Andy. He was a really goofy, really funny guy and I just cannot get past the fact that I will never see him again, never speak to him again, never hear his laugh or feel his hug.

The Democrats refused to give * a timeline the day before my brother was killed. I can never forget nor forgive that. It still would have been too late for Andy, but I have to wonder: how many more soldiers must die before we stop their murderer?

I have absolutely no malice or hatred toward those Iraqis who built the IED that killed Andy. I have nothing but malice and hatred toward the man who sent Andy and his fellow soldiers to fight in a an illegal invasion of a sovereign country based on outright lies.

Again, thanks for what you said. Today has been a tough day, what with the missing him. I have my okay days and my rough days. Even as the wounds heal, there will always be a big old hole in my heart where my baby brother used to be.

Andy left behind a wife and two little kids. His little daughter just turned 4, and his son is 18 months.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. i just truly cannot get my head around your loss
Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 01:24 AM by welshTerrier2
and i certainly cannot get my head around the mental pygmies who are still making all kinds of excuses why they just can't slam the door shut on this damned war and crush bush's head in it while they're at it ... i'm sick of the excuses ... i'm sick of the garbage that passes for party policy on Iraq ... i'm sick of the equivocation from the leading candidates ... 500 more troops have died this year ... and they're still tap dancing around ...

bush's war? whatever ... there's enough blood to paint a whole lot of Democratic hands and faces too ... the ones who just voted for more funding bear plenty of responsibility ...

i have to tell you, i've moved beyond "timelines" ... we need to deal with NOW; not "maybe in a year or two" ... it feels like we're being run by a Congress filled with bureaucrats ... where the hell is the inspired, visionary leadership? where's the outrage? where is the last sane man who will stand up and call this what it is: madness?

sorry to hear you're having such a rough day ... wish I had some inspirational words to help in some way ... all I can really say is that I think your brother's death was a totally senseless loss ... maybe if we can make more people understand, some value could come from that ...

here's a verse from an old Arlo Guthrie song that comes to mind:

You say its all fixed up now, you've got new guys on the line
but you had better remember this while you still got the time
Mothers still are weeping for their boys who went to war
And fathers are still asking what the whole damned thing was for
And people still are hungry and people still are poor
An honest week of work these days don't feed the kids no more

i wish you peace, Maggie. I hope in time you find a way to heal but that you never, never forget what they did.
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. Nevermind
Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 05:05 AM by sanskritwarrior
everyone grieves in their own way.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. well if you have enough money,
I guess you can buy anything. And we all know he's just "lip-syncing" and not very well.

I'm sorry for your loss. And Cindy can "speak" all she wants. She can even "run". But don't kid yourself - she ain't winning.

And if she runs as an independent - she ain't running on DU.

I'm not a DLC'er. I'm probably more liberal than you are.

I just don't support attempts that make no sense.

When you have a sore on your leg - you can treat it or cut the leg off. Either way, you're rid of the sore. But the long term consequences? And when you could have just taken a little more care.

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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Pretty biased poll if you ask me.
There's only one option to support Cindy as a candidate, and it involves professing blind faith in her.

How about other, I support Cindy Sheehan's candidacy for CA-8 because a) she will not win, b) she will not cause any Repug to win, and c) the Party needs shaking up.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. So...you were okay with her til she decided to run against Pelosi?
Is that what you are saying?
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. No, I'm saying that I don't have blind loyalty to her
or worship her or whatever Choice 1 implies, but I think a progressive challenge to Pelosi can only help the cause of improving our leadership.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I don't think most here have "blind loyalty" to Cindy...DU'ers are pretty skeptical group
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 08:27 PM by KoKo01
not known for hero worship...with a few exceptions who if they stay here...start to questions.

Thanks for your clarification of what you feel, though.
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knowledgeispwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Not sure about the hero worship claim...
I think many DUers often do put certain people on pedestals, elevating to practically hero status, so that we get people who end up horribly disappointed and even nasty when the 'hero' is shown to not be so "perfect" and on the other hand, we have the blind supporters who will continue to practically unconditionally support said person and try to explain away or make excuses for whatever caused their "fall from grace."

We also, unfortunately, get black and white arguments (a la Bushco) when people challenge an action or statement of one our "heroes." For example, some who have questioned inaccuracies in Ms. Sheehan's recent statements or have asked about the wisdom of her congressional run are met with responses which say "don't you think a woman who lost her son has the right to speak her mind?" when that wasn't even the issue at all.

Our hero worship has also caused some of us to attribute things to our idols that are untrue. Cindy Sheehan did much to bring attention to the antiwar movement and was lucky enough to become the face of the movement for awhile, but she wasn't the first or the only voice in the antiwar movement. That claim is disrespectful to the other activists and besides, Sheehan's true actions in that time are enough to laud without exaggeration.

In short, I think we would be better off with more realistic views of our leaders and idols.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. My thought exactly on the poll being biased.
Lord. It's phrased as though the only reason to support her is because she was the "first to stand up to Bush."

Not only is that untrue and offensive to others who opposed him previously, but it also trivializes her political views as if they don't even exist.

Furthermore, for some incomprehensible reason, it dismisses the possibility that DUers support candidates based on evaluating their stand on the issues and select the ones whose views most closely match their own.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
55. No see, you're not allowed to do that,
because anyone who is not an absolute party loyalist who doesn't pay attention to campaigns is a freeper troll.

:sarcasm:
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Throwing Stones Donating Member (730 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. I respect Cindy, but she needs a major lesson in how our government acutally works
That's not to say that I endorse the current system, but it is what it is, and she's showing herself to be as politically naive as Nader.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. How Government "REALLY WORKS" has been Exposed under Bushies....would you want
Bushie Government to be the NORM? Cindy is old enough to remember when Government "TRIED TO WORK"...at least TRIED...so she's a private citizen trying to "blind her way" through the mess that we are are in with a Government that's almost a Dictatorship...where the Dictator doesn't have to reveal his documents, decisions and who he speaks with even when there's evidence of Criminality. And...what happened to those "Checks & Balances" that were drummed into all our heads as little kids in history and civics classes?

Cindy is an "ordinary citizen" and that she makes mistakes is because she doesn't have BIG LOBBY MONEY and THINK TANKS and BUSHIE PEDIGREE's after her name. She wasn't "Skull & Bones" or privileged of any kind...but her SON DIED IN IRAQ FOR AN ILLEGAL WAR BASED ON LIES!

I think America was SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT...Private Citizens like Cindy taking over the Helm of the Ship when it's On the Rocks and Floundering. I'd trust her as much as anyone whose now sitting there in DC who allowed the Captain of the Ship to steer us on the rocks. And...she at least has HEART and GUTS to DEFY the POWER STRUCTURE that Winked and Nodded while this was going on. :shrug:
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Throwing Stones Donating Member (730 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Right On
I agree with you but let's not forget that the revolutionaries that brought us the US Constitution were also the landed gentry. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is, at the end of the day, only fiction.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. and let's also not forget ...
that those who led the revolution would have been hanged for treason had they been captured ...
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Throwing Stones Donating Member (730 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I'm not sure I'd go that far, myself
In a perfect world, Pelosi would be hung for treason, but I'm not convinced Cindy Sheehan is a better alternative in our unperfect world.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. say what??
my comment was solely in reference to the revolutionaries who led the American revolution against England. i made no intended reference to Ms. Pelosi.
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Throwing Stones Donating Member (730 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. I never meant to imply that you made any reference to Pelosi
But in a perfect world, her ass would be swinging in the wind for her crime of enabling a dictator. Unless and until Mrs. Speaker decides to reset the table, with room for impeachment thereon, she's as much of a traitor to the Constitution as the scumbags in the Executive Branch.

"The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. U.S. Constitution, Article 2, Section 4 (emphasis added, obv)

The role of Congress on impeachment is mandatory, not permissive. If it were permissive, the sentence would read "The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, may] be removed from office ....

Keep in mind that the drafters were almost all lawyers: they clearly understood the difference between "shall" and "may".
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. here's my take on impeachment and on Pelosi
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 10:36 PM by welshTerrier2
first, let me tell you that I believe what bush has done warrants not just impeachment but execution ... and then after we execute him, we should give the good people at the Hague a go at him ... clear so far?

second, I think Pelosi was wrong for saying what she said about taking impeachment off the table. the right thing to have said, regardless of her motives, was something more vague about not prejudging anything that might or might not be disclosed during the upcoming "oversight hearings" ... to say she did not expect it to lead to impeachment would have been OK but to "take it off the table" was, in my view, making policy without the facts ...

having said all that, I have not supported calls for impeachment ... yet ... I'm sure I will ... there was a great line in "All The Presidents Men" that took place after Woodward and Bernstein accused Haldeman of being the fifth person to control the fund that paid for the break-in. They were right but the person they had used as a source denied he gave them the information. It gave the Nixon forces a real opening to kill the story. Deep Throat said to Woodward: "In a story like this, you work from the edges in. Aim too high and everybody feels safe." They almost let Nixon et al get away.

the point is that announcing you're going after bush to take him down is a minefield filled with danger. the better way to proceed, and to some extent this MAY have been Pelosi's motivation although I still disagree with what she did, was to remain neutral and let the facts lead where they may.

the real bottom line here, in my view, is that it is not at all clear that Pelosi will KEEP impeachment off the table. we've got to get the goods first before we tip our hand.

so, bottom line, I am not calling for impeachment just yet. there are plenty of investigations in process. let's see what we come up with. starting impeachment hearings would lock things down even tighter than they are. bush should hang for his treason but we have to go about collecting the evidence we need in the right way. anyway, that's my two cents.
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independentpiney Donating Member (966 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. She was the First to confront bush about the war?
I remember being with alot of people on the streets of NYC long before Cindy got any attention. Or am I misinterpreting the statement?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Deleted message
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. May I be the first to say...
:wtf:
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. Get fucking real! Pelosi will NEVER be voted out of office from liberal SF You have NO fucking say.
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 09:18 PM by LaPera
Would Cindy have a clue as a politician, dealing with budgets, asshole republicans constantly fucking with democrats legislation, 2 heartbeats away or impeachments from becoming President of the United States...Yes, you say, Cindy will be a great President...You want President Sheehan, correct?

Get fucking real! Pelosi will NEVER be voted out of office from our liberal San Francisco district...scream all the fuck you want from Georgia, or New York from the rest of California to Alaska...you have no fucking say and you NEVER will!

ONLY WE DO HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO!!

In February, only a month after becoming speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi settled weeks of threats from Rep. John D. Dingell, her blustery Energy and Commerce Committee chairman, by putting in writing her assent to one of his big demands -- Pelosi's new Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming would not infringe on his power to write legislation as he saw fit.

Four months later, Dingell (D-Mich.) appeared in the speaker's conference room to walk through a bill that would override California's attempts to combat global warming by raising fuel efficiency standards, strip the Environmental Protection Agency of its authority to regulate greenhouse gases and promote a controversial effort to turn coal into liquid fuel.

This time, Pelosi was in no mood to mollify Dingell. The bill he was sponsoring, she said, was unacceptable. The environmental costs would be too severe, the political costs for the Democratic caucus too high, she said.

The two episodes with Dingell illustrate Pelosi's evolution from a somewhat tentative political figure reliant on a small circle of advisers to the undisputed leader of the House's fractious Democratic majority.

"Nancy now represents the majority of this caucus, overwhelmingly," said Barney Frank (Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.

But if Pelosi has succeeded in uniting her party during her initial months as speaker, she and the rest of the leadership have yet to convince the nation that the Democrats can govern.

Pelosi, of California, has succeeded in getting all of her opening agenda through the House. But few of the initiatives have made it to the president, and only one has become law: an increase in the minimum wage.

The obstacle has been the Senate, where Democrats hold only a one-seat advantage. But that failure has colored all of Congress, including Pelosi and the House Democratic leadership.

The new Democratic Congress took office in January with a 43 percent approval rating. Since then, its rating has sunk to about the same low levels as President Bush's, a bit below 30 percent. And Pelosi's own approval ratings have slipped, from 48 percent in a March poll by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press to 36 percent last month in a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll. Over the same time frame, her disapproval ratings climbed from 22 percent to 39 percent.

As the first speaker since Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) to have to manage a new majority after a switch in party rule, Pelosi came in with an ambitious 100-hour agenda and some challenges that would quickly strain the Democratic caucus: finishing all of the government's domestic budget plans left undone by the Republicans, enacting an ethics program unpopular with many lawmakers and, most important, funding a war most Democrats oppose.

Pelosi faced an inherent conflict -- unite a Democratic majority or fulfill her promises to run a more transparent and bipartisan House. In her first six months, she has chosen the former, not without a price.

Combative Republicans repeatedly tried to use her initial openness against her. They tried to force a vote to end the District's gun ban as a price for giving the city a vote in the House and attempted to make Democrats vote on a GOP resolution declaring that the House would always fund the troops in Iraq, at a time when many liberals wanted to end funding. In both instances, Pelosi pulled the proposals before they were voted on, violating her pledges of bipartisanship but keeping Democratic unity intact.

Now Democratic leaders worry that they must get some of the domestic agenda passed soon, to show voters they can govern, even as they are still dogged by a creative Republican resistance that has bedeviled Pelosi and her party.

* * *

After the 2006 elections swept the Republicans from power, Pelosi stood as a historic figure, the highest-ranking elected woman in the nation's history. But she had no obvious models on which to build her speakership.

The last time a Democrat took the gavel from a Republican speaker was 1955, when Sam Rayburn (Tex.) resumed a speakership he had relinquished only two years before. The most recent Democratic speakers -- Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill (Mass.), Jim Wright (Tex.) and Thomas S. Foley (Wash.) -- reigned over a Democratic caucus that had grown complacent after decades in power. Those speakers passively allowed their powerful committee chairmen to set the legislative agenda.

Pelosi's situation made her most like Gingrich, another politically minded insurgent who assumed control after years in the minority. Like Gingrich, she rose not through the committee structure but by playing in the rougher world of politics.

Pelosi wanted to maintain the Republicans' much more centralized power structure but recognized that old bulls such as Dingell, David R. Obey (D-Wis.) and John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), who had served as committee chairmen before the GOP swept to power, would have to be respected.

"There is a necessity for a unity of voice and purpose in the Democratic Party . . . and the only way you're going to do that was to have a central management to create consensus, not simply individual, discrete committee agendas," said House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (Md.).

But as the face of that central power, Pelosi, who declined an interview request for this article, lacked Gingrich's flair for public appearances and off-the-cuff prognostication. Her sex made her extraordinary, but it was also something of a liability, leading her to be constantly underestimated, said Steve Elmendorf, who was chief of staff to Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.) when he was House minority leader.

"We would have these private meetings when she was leader where she was decisive, focused, even dismissive of people at times," Frank said. "I'd say to her, I'd beg her, 'Please, Nancy, be this person in public.' "

But to some Democrats, her biggest liability was the tight circle of confidants -- tough-minded fellow Bay Area liberals such as Reps. George Miller, Anna G. Eshoo and Zoe Lofgren; tart-tongued Reps. Edward J. Markey (Mass.) and Rosa DeLauro (Conn.); and gruff Rep. John P. Murtha (Pa.) -- that allies worried would insulate her from public opinion and the rest of the caucus.

Even before she received the gavel, those fears appeared to be confirmed when she disastrously backed Murtha's challenge to Hoyer for majority leader. She saw the Iraq war as the defining issue of the time and extolled Murtha as the man to end it, but he was trounced.

"That was a defining moment for her," said Rep. C.A. "Dutch" Ruppersberger (D-Md.), whose political roots are entangled with Pelosi's in Baltimore, where she grew up. "It made her stronger, because she understood then that she really had to widen her circle."

* * *

Once she assumed the speakership, Pelosi took on a frenetic schedule. She met with Democratic leaders formally three times a week but often informally two to three times daily, and held sessions with chairmen, freshmen and other lawmakers.

There is a downside to the pace. She tends to micromanage, frustrating staff members with her unwillingness to delegate tasks, and she jealously guards her schedule.

Still, an instinct for compromise and consultation got Pelosi through a series of initial tests that could have blown up publicly but instead passed quietly. After Murtha's defeat in November, his close ally Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.) said lawmakers who had promised their votes to Murtha but delivered them to Hoyer were not to be trusted and should be unmasked. Brendan Daly, Pelosi's communications director, got wind that Moran would be on PBS's "NewsHour" and quickly called Moran's staff to command that he not go on the show and that he stop the threats.

Just weeks later, Pelosi pushed aside Jane Harman (Calif.), the highest-ranking Democrat on the intelligence committee, then skipped over Alcee L. Hastings (Fla.), an African American and an impeached federal judge who was next in line, to name Sylvestre Reyes (Tex.) as chairman of the powerful Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The move was expected to cause an uproar, not only with the Congressional Black Caucus but also with the "Blue Dog" Democrats -- conservative and moderate lawmakers who backed Harman. It did not, however, because she has provided other key assignments to assuage those left out.

The next challenge came as House Democratic leaders tried to force a turn in the Iraq war through a spending bill, only to have Pelosi sideswiped by the man she had entrusted to end the war -- Murtha.

Senior Democrats had been huddling with different factions of the caucus, trying to reach a strong consensus before going public with a bill. Without telling Pelosi, Murtha laid out the bill's strategy on a liberal Web site, MoveCongress.org. The legislation called for such stringent readiness standards for deploying combat forces that the president's planned troop increase would be strangled by red tape.

Pelosi learned of Murtha's remarks from reporters. At that point, authority over the war-funding bill very publicly shifted to the House Appropriations Committee and Obey, its chairman, who was conspicuously not a member of her inner circle.

"Murtha said, 'I had my plans.' He couldn't get them done, so Obey took over," said a senior House Democratic leadership aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not cleared to discuss internal deliberations.

By the time Pelosi met with the chairmen last month to finalize the House's energy bill, her grasp on the levers of power was nearly complete. It was at this meeting that she shut down Dingell's proposals as harmful to the environment, and thus to her caucus. According to participants, she virtually manhandled Dingell, the House's longest-serving member and, at age 81, still an imposing figure.

Dingell grew angry, but he directed his rage not at Pelosi but at Caucus Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), who had tried to cool him down. If Emanuel wanted to get involved in energy policy, he should try to get on the committee, Dingell snapped.

Emanuel was happy to take the heat.

"I was never part of and still am not part of that Miller/Eshoo/Lofgren/Murtha circle," Emanuel said, "and I would consider myself a true Pelosi loyalist."

To be sure, the inner circle remains powerful, particularly Miller. His longtime chief of staff, John Lawrence, is now Pelosi's chief of staff. Another veteran Miller aide, Dan Beard, is the House's new chief administrative officer, responsible for everything from broken BlackBerrys to the Capitol's decrepit power plant.

But even Pelosi's closest confidants say their influence has been diluted by the demands of the speakership. Eshoo grew wistful as she spoke recently of her "pal" Pelosi.

"I went to a conference during Memorial Day," she recalled. "And I told George Miller, 'You know, I miss Nancy.' "
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. Go Cindy Go! You Rock baby! eom
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. Hardly the first...
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 09:04 PM by ellisonz
For example:



I believe it is my patriotic duty to urge a different path to protecting America's security: To focus on al Qaeda, which is an imminent threat, and to use our resources to improve and strengthen the security and safety of our home front and our people while working with the other nations of the world to contain Saddam Hussein.

Had I been a member of the Senate, I would have voted against the resolution that authorized the President to use unilateral force against Iraq - unlike others in that body now seeking the presidency.

I do not believe the President should have been given a green light to drive our nation into conflict without the case having first been made to Congress and the American people for why this war is necessary, and without a requirement that we at least try first to work through the United Nations.

That the President was given open-ended authority to go to war in Iraq resulted from a failure of too many in my party in Washington who were worried about political positioning for the presidential election.

To this day, the President has not made a case that war against Iraq, now, is necessary to defend American territory, our citizens, our allies, or our essential interests.- Drake University, IA, Feb. 17, 2003.
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html
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Rydz777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. I watched Cindy recently when she spoke about what a good boy
her son had been. It was poignant hearing her, and how she misses him. I thought, now she is surely speaking for over 3000 other mothers.
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maggiegault Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
40. And brothers, and sisters, and wives, and husbands, and children, and grandparents, and friends...

She speaks for ALL of us who have gone through the horror of losing a loved one to the Bush/Cheney War For Oil.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. I stand with Cindy. She stood up when few other would.
I stand with those who have stood with me. I have a long memory.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. What are you talking about?
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 09:39 PM by LaPera
People like myself were marching in the streets in protest BEFORE Bush's illegal invasion and most of us who did, got shit for it, and most of us didn't have any kids in the war, but we shouted & marched anyway, we wrote letters and made calls, sent money and gave our time to anti-war groups, and stood up for what was right as we still are today, with no accolades, we just want results, send ALL the kids home, NOW!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. WTF?
I also marched here in Los Angeles many times also BEFORE the war. I don't know what you are talking about. She lost her son. It changed her life to activism. She never sought "accolades". She's suffered greatly from her opposition to this war.

And I doubt that there is one single person here at the DU, as much as I respect them, that has done as much, given as much, suffered as much as has Cindy Shehan with the exception of those who have lost their loved ones in Bush's war themselves.

I can not stand to see her run down by what I call "keyboard activists".

She's a national hero. What do you have against her?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. on the teeny weeny chance Cindy won... who would support her in congress?
The Dems would shun her. The GOP would ridicule her. She would have no power. She would not become speaker - Hoyer or perhaps Emanuel would.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. However, if Cindy ran as a DEMOCRAT against Pelosi...
The national party would have no choice but to acknowledge her as a force to reckon with for displacing a woman who was third in line for the Presidency. And that means - with an army of pissed-off Democratic grassroots activists backing her up - that the House would start seeing some fundamental changes.

But that's probably not going to happen now, since Cindy's running as an independent.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
49. actually, no, the national party could (and probably would) still shun her
..she would be a freshman with no allies.
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MalloyLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
34. Other....
I support her goal for ending this war....I don't necessarily support her challenging Pelosi as an independent, would rather in a primary...especially since she doesn't even live in the district. I appreciate her doing it in the sense that 'impeachment' will be heard in the media.And it won't be about a blowjob but about lying about war.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. I never supported her.
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maggiegault Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. And your icon is Obama. How surprising.


:puke:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. What has that got to do with anything?
Obama's stance is anti-war, I do believe.
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maggiegault Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. He's The...How Do I Say It...Darling Of Some, And I Just Don't Think He Has The Gravitas

Cindy Sheehan is better qualified to get our troops home, if you ask me, and I consider myself an authority on the topic.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
44. how can we miss you Cindy
when you won't go away like you dramatically announced, what was it, 3 weeks ago?
sorry bout your son, Bush is a turd, but you either have to keep fighting or stop being a distraction
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Why do you focus on her so much?
If you aren't interested in what she has to say, or what her latest actions are, which is understandable, then turn the channel or don't read the articles. The MSM is really to blame for a lot of this, and it would be to their advantage to turn people against her.
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I posted on a thread which is not "focusing on her too much"
on anythingg. sheesh. I'm just not impressed by her drama when it comes to
saying she is taking her ball and going home and then not actually going home.
That is the essence of attention-seeking behavior. She is poo'ing on all the
good will that came her way.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. 2nd thoughts...
I have to admit, I never watch TV news (except Olbermann and Dobb sometimes), nor do I read articles on her, so am way out of touch on what Cindy is saying and doing (since I do not care). I am going to stay out of the Cindy discussions from now on!
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. good strategy
This issue has so much emotional overlay, name-calling and such, that it's
tough to have a normal conversation about this without people going off.
From my perspective, I hope Cindy finds peace in all aspects of her life.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I do too
Doing something positive in the name of a loved one who has passed on can help temporarily but it doesnt really heal the pain or fill the gap. I feel badly for her also that she is alienating and humiliating herself, or so it sounds, in such a public manner. I hope she has very good friends who will stand by her.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
51. I support Cindy's efforts and admire her courage, but...
Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 07:28 AM by eowyn_of_rohan
I see her as one of the many people who are doing what they can to open people's eyes to the tyranny and corruption of the bu$h administration, be it the Iraq "war", election theft, 9/11 MIHOP, and all other known and unknown crimes against the environment, the American people, and the entire world. I do not put Cindy on a pedestal to be adulated or knocked down. I see her as a sister in the fight. She sets a good example of what we, as Americans, can do, and I believe should do, which is to stand up for what you believe in and work for truth and justice. The Cindy "worship" here is as strange to me as the Cindy villification, and at times borders on pathetic.
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
54. She's crazy as hell.
I look forward to seeing the media skewer her in the coming months.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Maybe loosing a son in an illegal war
makes a person extremely decicated to stopping it
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. But that doesn't excuse her crazy statements. nt
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maggiegault Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Who died and left you to judge? Oh, wait, it was Cindy's son, Casey, who died in an illegal war
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. What's your excuse
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
61. I support Cindy
Edited on Wed Jul-11-07 04:54 PM by bigwillq
She hasn't always made the best decisions. She hasn't always said the right thing 100 percent of the time. She does indeed have her faults but don't we all?

But I still think Cindy is a brave soul. She took on this administration at a time when not many people had the guts to do so. For that, I will admire her forever.

I saw her and the Gold Star Families in a rally on the New Haven Green and I was forever changed by what I witnessed there.
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
64. I Don't Care about Her One Way or The Other...Her Time is Over...
Whatever She Was About.. Careful, the same thing could be said for spineless Democrats. At least she has a spine.
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