Obama was singing a different tune on Hillary and Iraq...just one year ago...

[SaveElmer]

November 2006 interview...Obama in a burst of pre-campaign honesty...

Q:Where do you find yourself having the biggest differences with Hillary Clinton, politically?

You know, I think very highly of Hillary. The more I get to know her, the more I admire her. I think she’s the most disciplined—one of the most disciplined people—I’ve ever met. She’s one of the toughest. She’s got an extraordinary intelligence. And she is, she’s somebody who’s in this stuff for the right reasons. She’s passionate about moving the country forward on issues like health care and children. So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test.

Contrast to a couple days ago...

"Being a leader means that you'd better do what's right and leave the politics aside, because there are no do-overs on an issue as important as war," said the Illinois senator, who was not yet in the Senate when the initial vote was taken in 2002.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/10/30/061030on_onlineonly04?currentPage=3

[endarkenment]

1. That is one thin straw to grasp at.

Hold on tight.

[TwilightGardener]

2. He doesn't believe in de-authorization of the original IWR. So?

He's not inconsistent. And he comes across as just a nice, reasonable guy in that first excerpt--is that what you intended?

[SaveElmer]

3. Contrast to the second is the point...

One year ago giving an honest assessment...1 day ago, accusing Hillary of playing politics with the IWR vote...

[TwilightGardener]

6. HE gave his assessment of her situation 5 years ago, and is giving his

opinion of her actions now--not inconsistent. He's going to take jabs at her--deal with it.

[SaveElmer]

17. It's politics...I understand that...

But that's all it is...he has no moral high ground here...

[Tellurian]

39. Yes, you're absolutely right. Obama's desperation is causing recanting perspiration...

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

25. Funny how anyone supporting Hillary...

Is assumed to be working for her campaign...

Yet anyone supporting Edwards or Obama are just grassroots supporters...

Typical "progressive" arrogance...

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

27. I categorically deny it...

And I challenge you to locate an instance where I said Hillary's election was inevitable...in fact I have said the opposite on a number of occasions...

And I have to say, if you think DU is somehow a threat to anyones campaign, you have been here too long...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

30. Do I live in Virginia...yes I do...do I work for the DLC...no I do not...

I have no connection to any political campaign or organization other than my local Democratic Committee for whom I am a precinct captain...and of course I volunteer for political candidates, this year in Virginia it is the House of Delegates and State Senate...

Any more questions?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

33. there's no connection to those website and the DLC

but why not try to DISPROVE what is on the websites. How's that?

[jackbourassa]

37. So you're one of them too...

I figured as much.

I know of tonnes of people who, just dabble in politics for kicks, but I don't know any casual supporters of the DLC. Are there college clubs or something? lol.

The thing I love about the DLC is how they take credit for everything, even when they had nothing to do with it. So now they're taking credit for the election of FDR. It's easy to be right all the time when you always side with the winner. I'm sure next you'll be saying that the DLC was right about the Iraq War or something. That they weren't responsible for our election loss in 2002. Or whatever crap you want to spew.

I don't have to disprove anything (how do you prove a negative anyway). It wouldn't matter anyway, you'd just come back with some more nonsense. I'd rather spend my time doing other things than setting the record straight against the DLC.

I'm glad the DLC has officially chosen Hillary CLinton as its candidate. I guess this means that she will lose.

[wyldwolf]

41. are you capable of distinguishing fact and fantasy? Doesn't appear so.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

43. that reply just proved you can't

Wrong on both counts.

[jackbourassa]

48. Interesting...

...so you just link your website to an exclusive insider organization for no particular reason. Interesting indeed.

But then again, i'd be ashamed to admit that I was DLC as well. It kind of has this Scarlett Letter stigma to it. I understand.

[wyldwolf]

55. the interesting thing is you think I've linked to a "exclusive insider organization"

:rofl:

i'd be ashamed to admit that I was DLC as well. It kind of has this Scarlett Letter stigma to it.

I got involved in the newly formed Democratic Leadership Council, a group dedicated to forging a winning message for the Democrats based on fiscal responsibility, creative new ideas on social policy, and a commitment to a strong national defense. -- Bill Clinton.

[jackbourassa]

61. Oh Bill Clinton...

That's right. He won the election in 1992 with 43% (less than Dukakis); lost us Congress in 1994; ditched his health care plans, gave us welfare reform, the Telecommunications Act; won with 49% in 1996 (same total as Gore and Kerry); got himself impeached; then after we all saved his ass decided to advocate privatizing Social Security.

Cling on to that buddy. He's all you've got.

[wyldwolf]

66. oh, more leftwing truthiness

He won the election in 1992 with 43% (less than Dukakis)

With a popular third party candidate...

lost us Congress in 1994

No evidence of that.

ditched his health care plans

You are historically-impaired.

Yet, he's still the most popular Democrat today. Hardly a scarlett letter.

Cling on to that buddy. He's all you've got.

Other DLC winner included 7 of the 10 freshmen senators that won the Dems the Senate back in 1986, Al Gore, Max Cleland, John Kerry, John Edwards, Joe Lieberman, Bob Graham, over half the newly elected house dems in 2006...

* Gov. Mike Beebe of Arkansas
* Gov. Kathleen Blanco of Louisiana
* Gov. Phil Bredesen of Tennessee
* Gov. Jon Corzine of New Jersey
* Gov. Jim Doyle of Wisconsin
* Gov. Michael Easley of North Carolina
* Gov. Jennifer Granholm of Michigan
* Gov. Christine Gregoire of Washington
* Gov. Brad Henry of Oklahoma
* Gov. Tim Kaine of Virginia
* Gov. Joe Manchin of West Virginia
* Gov. Ruth Ann Minner of Delaware
* Gov. Janet Napolitano of Arizona
* Gov. Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania
* Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico
* Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas
* Gov. Eliot Spitzer of New York
* Former Gov. (now former President) Bill Clinton of Arkansas
* Former Gov. Tom Vilsack of Iowa
* Former Gov. Mark Warner of Virginia
* Former Gov. Jim McGreevy of New Jersey

* Rep. Ellen Tauscher of California - Chair
* Rep. Ron Kind of Wisconsin - Vice-Chair
* Rep. Adam Smith of Washington - Vice-Chair
* Rep. Artur Davis of Alabama - Vice-Chair
* Rep. Joseph Crowley of New York - Vice-Chair
* Rep. Brian Baird of Washington
* Rep. John Barrow of Georgia
* Rep. Melissa Bean of Illinois
* Rep. Shelley Berkley of Nevada
* Rep. Lois Capps of California
* Rep. Russ Carnahan of Missouri
* Rep. Ben Chandler of Kentucky
* Rep. Henry Cuellar of Texas
* Rep. Susan Davis of California
* Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois
* Rep. Eliot Engel of New York
* Rep. Bob Etheridge of North Carolina
* Rep. Charlie Gonzalez of Texas
* Rep. Jane Harman of California
* Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin of South Dakota
* Rep. Brian Higgins of New York
* Rep. Rush Holt of New Jersey
* Rep. Darlene Hooley of Oregon
* Rep. Jay Inslee of Washington
* Rep. Steve Israel of New York
* Rep. Rick Larsen of Washington
* Rep. John Larson of Connecticut
* Rep. Carolyn McCarthy of New York
* Rep. Mike McIntyre of North Carolina
* Rep. Kendrick Meek of Florida
* Rep. Gregory Meeks of New York
* Rep. Charlie Melancon of Louisiana
* Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald of California
* Rep. Dennis Moore of Kansas
* Rep. Jim Moran of Virginia
* Rep. David Price of North Carolina
* Rep. Loretta Sanchez of California
* Rep. Adam Schiff of California
* Rep. Allyson Schwartz of Pennsylvania
* Rep. David Scott of Georgia
* Rep. Vic Snyder of Arkansas
* Rep. Tom Udall of New Mexico
* Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida
* Rep. David Wu of Oregon
# Sen. Max Baucus of Montana
# Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana
# Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware
# Sen. Thomas R. Carper of Delaware
# Sen. Kent Conrad of North Dakota
# Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota
# Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California
# Sen. Tim Johnson of South Dakota
# Sen. Herb Kohl of Wisconsin
# Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana
# Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut
# Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas
# Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida
# Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska
# Sen. Mark Pryor of Arkansas
# Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York
# Sen. Ken Salazar of Colorado
# Sen. Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

[SaveElmer]

46. You are quite humorous...

My blog...which you will note I have not updated in months...is my own personal blog...

DonkeyDigest, I can assure you has no connection whatsoever to the DLC...or to me...other than I agree with most of what is posted there...

That I find interesting articles etc that I happen to agree with and post them on DU is hardly unique to me....

And fact is, the articles you listed I never posted here...you have me mistaken for someone else...though I have made some of the arguments contained in them.

And again, a display of "progressive" arrogance. You believe it is not possible for there to be Democrats who honestly take centrist positions or that don't view the DLC as evil incarnate, so the only alternative in your mind is that those Democrats are being paid for their advocacy...

[jackbourassa]

50. Now it all makes sense...

So you and your buddy just do this for fun.

But given the track record of the DLC in losing elections. It would explain your strong advocacy for Hillary Clinton.

Why win an election, when you can lose one right?

[wyldwolf]

59. what track record in losing elections?

Please, explain with proof.

[jackbourassa]

62. 1994, 2000, 2002, 2004...

nt

[wyldwolf]

67. you have some evidence? Oh, wait! Silly to ask a "progressive" for evidence of anything.

[SaveElmer]

69. All they have is "The Feeling"...nt

[William769]

71. Look at your previous post in this thread and you will have your answer. NT

[draft_mario_cuomo]

83. How are the Dems expected to do in the state leg. elections this year?

This if off topic from the harassing of you ;) but I am curious as to whether Dems will further their gains in VA at the legislative level this year.

[SaveElmer]

89. We have a good chance...especially in the Senate...

Where we only have to gain a fews seats to get the majority back. Republicans gerrymandered themselves into a large majority after George "Dumb as Rocks" Allen was elected Governor.

We have some seriously whacked out right wingers up here in Northern Virginia hanging onto seats by the skin of their teeth. Just need to knock two or three of them off and then pick up one or two seats elsewhere to get it.

House of Delegates is a longer shot, but not out of the question...

[draft_mario_cuomo]

91. That sounds good. When do you think VA will complete its transformation and become a blue state?

10, 15, or 20 years? It seems inevitable, given the growth of NoVa.

[wyldwolf]

29. "you always seem to have the meme of the day handy " - it's called "staying informed."

You should try it sometime.

[jackbourassa]

32. Sure it is...

nt

[wyldwolf]

34. I'll tell you our secret... GOOGLE NEWS! shhhhh...!

[jackbourassa]

38. I'll tell you my secret...I think the DLC sucks! shhhhhhhh!

nt

[wyldwolf]

40. well, that's really no secret. And your feelings are so strong in that regard...

...that anyone who feels differently must be a mole. :rofl:

[jackbourassa]

44. I never said it was a secret...

...everyone knows the DLC suck.

[wyldwolf]

47. yes you did. Post #38

:rofl:

[jackbourassa]

54. Hey wyldwolf, you got me all wrong...

I don't really hate the DLC. I actually like them. You know why?

Two words: AL FROM!

That's right. The political genius, guru, titan of all things political. The Fromster. The Fromomatic. The Frominator.

Because I always feel especially inspired whenever From opens his mouth. I remember how he use to go on and on about how we Democrats should ditch the progressives, Jesse Jackson, Labor Unions, feminists and all that. Because THEY STINK you know. Inspirational stuff. Who needs Thomas Paine when you have Al From right?

Then a couple of years later he argued that the reason the Democrats should oppose Bush's "Tort Reform" was because if we didn't, our constituents (in this case the Trial Lawyers) would think that we couldn't be counted on.

That's moderation at its best. That's moderation equals inspiration. DLC = Proud to be a Democrat.

You guys are so cool for supporting these guys. I wish I was more like you. But alas, i'm not. I'm too weak on defense. I opposed the Iraq War.

I LOVE THAT DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wyldwolf]

56. so you admit you said it was a secret, then flip-flopped?

[jackbourassa]

63. Of course I flip flopped...

I'm a non-DLC Democrat.

The DLC never flip flop. The DLC can do anything.

[wyldwolf]

68. in light of the obvious evidence of it, at least you had the balls to admit it.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

82. Exactly and more evidence the "new politics" is just a campaign ploy

It is repackaged straight from the Rove playbook. "Changing the tone" anyway? How is that and Rove's talk of "unity" in 2000 working out btw?

[riverwalker]

4. He assumed she actually read the report

before voting and now we know she didn't.

[MGKrebs]

9. I think she did read the report from the UN inspectors who were

STILL IN IRAQ at the time busily destroying banned and undisclosed weapons and production facilities- proof that Hussein was lying and hiding things.

[wyldwolf]

5. he also "hid" his initial opposition once he got elected to the Senate

He took down his opposition speech from his website and only put it back after The Black Commentator made an issue of it.

[mckeown1128]

16. I would like to see your evidence of that!!! nt

[wyldwolf]

20. uh...ok!

State Senator Obama maintains that an October 2002 anti-war speech was removed from his campaign web site because “the speech was dated once the formal phase of the war was over, and my staff's desire to continually provide fresh news clips.” The speech was returned to the site following Associate Editor Bruce A. Dixon’s June 5 commentary, “In Search of the Real Barack Obama: Can a Black Senate candidate resist the DLC?” in which Mr. Dixon remarked, “Somebody else's brand of politics appears to have intruded on Obama's campaign.”

http://www.blackcommentator.com/47/47_cover.html

Somebody else's brand of politics appears to have intruded on Obama's campaign. For a while the whole speech could be found on Obama's campaign web site... Then, a few weeks ago, Barack Obama's heartfelt statement of principled opposition to lawless militarism and the rule of fear was stricken without explanation from his campaign web site, and replaced with mild expressions of "anxiety":

http://www.blackcommentator.com/45/45_dixon.html

[SaveElmer]

21. Contrast to Hillary...

Who has a link referencing all her statements and speeches on Iraq...including her IWR speech...all easily accessible...

[mckeown1128]

49. Wow!!! That is not evidence at all of what you claim...

It is an article written by someone saying that they "think" he was hiding his anti-war stance. Amazing I have known that Obama is anti-war for years. I haven't noticed him hiding it. So he wanted fresh speeches on his website instead of older speeches. The horror. I guess you forgot to read the part of the article where Obama decided to put the back speech up because a reporter tried distort his record by accusing him of hiding it. Hmmm.... seems to me that he wasn't trying to hide it.

So I would like you're actual evidence now. I know you must have some because you wouldn't baseless-ly attack him just becausae he is a candidate daring to run against Hillary now would you. :sarcasm:

[wyldwolf]

58. so nothing on that page is true, then? Or will you cherry pick what you'll accept?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

84. That is damning. WW's impressive assault on mythology continues nt

[MGKrebs]

7. He makes a good point; that casting a vote is different

than just talking about what you want. Those votes are often difficult and complicated.

[William769]

8. Obama loves signing in the choir, thats why he is where he is in the polls.

[TeamJordan23]

126. I guess Bill Clinton and John Kerry were singing the choir at this point also in 1992 and 2004? nt

[madrchsod]

10. i thought this was from hillary is 44

but i see it`s from last year

[wyldwolf]

11. so, just assuming it was from hillaryis44, would that make it less legit?

[SaveElmer]

15. It's from the New Yorker...

I don't pull stuff from Hillaryis44...although if it was I don't see the relevance

[jobycom]

12. He's a politician, she's a politician. That's how they do.

Obama and Clinton have almost identical outlooks on the world, as their voting records show, so they draw lines where they think the voters want them drawn. Obama's not stupid, he knows that the original IWR was not a vote for war. He understands, unlike some DUers, sadly, that many senators voting for it thought it was the best chance to avoid Bush's rush to war. Some would argue that had Bush followed its requirements, it would have prevented the war.

But Obama isn't going to win any votes by saying that during the campaign, so he does like Edwards, and tries to pretend it's a black and white issue. And Clinton knows that if she tried to explain it all most Americans with their two second attention spans would zone out (Hell, read DU, many liberals around here still don't get it). So she ignores the issue, and Obama hammers her on it.

I suspect when they battle is over they'll meet over drinks and laugh about how hard each one hit the other. That's politics. The basic choice in this election is between two historical first candidates who are both moderate, but who have an extreme difference in experience. Throw in Edwards, and you have three moderate candidates with extreme differences in experience, who each try to pretend they fit into a certain wing of the Democratic Party, even though they are very similar on the issues. They all vote the same, but they all pick different ways to explain or apologize for their votes. That's the election in a nutshell--which candidate has the better focus-group tested phrases to explain their similar views. Their speeches are Rorschach paintings of the same objects.

Understand, I like all three, I'm not criticizing them. Politics has always worked like that.

[barack4prez]

13. Perhaps the last year

Obama has gotten a chance to look at the "intelligence" which he was charitably allowing as the reason for Hillary's pro-war vote.

[churchofreality]

14. Thats why she will win, he talks off the cuff and it hurts him

She is much more disciplined. She will NOT screw this up.

[HeraldSquare212]

18. She didn't read the NIE

I thought she admitted she didn't read the NIE...his statement a year ago was that the NIE might have been the reason some people took a different decision than he did. But she didn't read it - so his points are consistent. It's beyond me why anyone would want to highlight the fact that she didn't read the report that the Pres claimed as justification.

[Tellurian]

51. You are mistaken. During the debate Hillary said she read the NIE report.

[TeamJordan23]

19. Why didn't Hillary speak up against war after Bush used his authority to start fighting?

No One has answered this question. She keeps saying that she didn't know that Bush would have used the authority the way he did. Well, why didn't she speak up when he first started to use the authority to actually engage in military fighting.

[Tellurian]

52. During the SOU Bush said, Hussein was ready to deploy WMD against the US..

You are conveniently leaving out timelines and lumping your assessment over the course of days, hours, minutes.

[TeamJordan23]

122. Okay, so she was okay with going to war than becased on what W said? nt

[Ethelk2044]

22. She should have read the information before voting.

[barack4prez]

23. She has a tough situation with that because

the report did include some intelligence which contradicted the intelligence that Bush relied on (though only in footnotes, or something). Then you have the revelation that she never read it, but she claims that she was "fully briefed" on it. The fact of the matter is that she voted for the war because it was popular at that time.
She'd be much better off to come out and say that she was wrong, and she learned from the mistake. That'll never happen.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tellurian]

72. That is false information...

Hillary voted for the Inspections to continue and a decision from them before Bush would be allowed to go to war!

[barack4prez]

80. But that's not what the resolution says

from Wikipedia:
" authorized the United States to use military force to 'defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.'"

Specifically:
"SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; . . ."

If any of those members of Congress felt this was too broad or unfounded, they should have voted against the resolution.

[Tellurian]

90. This was Sen Clinton's Iraq War Floor Statement:

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

I don't see anything here intimating her drive for War.

[TeamJordan23]

124. Why didn't she speak up when War started?

nt

[zanne]

35. Why can't you just point out Hilary's good points?

Why can't you just advocate for your candidate without attacking another candidate? Just tell people what good your candidate is doing and what he/she may do in the future. Don't make it negative; you're just flame throwing.

[zulchzulu]

75. It would be a short list..so you'd think....

I could name one big point, except it's the Republicans that would recite it: She's a Clinton.

[SaveElmer]

97. I do...often...

However in this case, it is Obama that is making political hay out of the 2002 IWR vote, I think a review of what he said previously is hardly negative...

[Forkboy]

36. I can barely tell them apart anyways.

[wyldwolf]

45. you think that's bad. I think that's good. But at least we agree on your point.

By the way, Obama is the one with the tan.

[zulchzulu]

57. Obama is correct...again...good to see the Clinton fans squirm

Senator Clinton has never used politics to shape her views...oh, wait....

:rofl:

[rinsd]

60. So have you dumped Obama as a candidate since he supports abill against flag burning?

Or was your outrage about that issue just so much bs?

[zulchzulu]

73. The Durbin amendment vs. Cosponsoring a bill making all desecration a crime...

I read Durbin's amendment (which would have made it a crime to burn a flag to intentionally incite violence, such as going to a soldier's funeral and burning a flag in front of the family) vs. Clinton's cosponsoring a federal crime law that makes "desecration" of the flag illegal in all circumstances.

Durbin's amendment (which Obama agreed to) was more about disturbing the peace and trying to invoke violence. I personally would not even go that far, but Clinton's panderistic efforts were more disgusting in my view.

[rinsd]

81. The bill she cosponsored did not make all descecration a crime

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-1911

`(a) Definition of Flag of the United States- In this section, the term `flag of the United States' means any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, in any size, in a form that is commonly displayed as a flag and that would be taken to be a flag by the reasonable observer.

`(b) Actions Promoting Violence- Any person who destroys or damages a flag of the United States with the primary purpose and intent to incite or produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace, and under circumstances in which the person knows that it is reasonably likely to produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace, shall be fined not more than $100,000, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

`(c) Flag Burning- Any person who shall intentionally threaten or intimidate any person or group of persons by burning, or causing to be burned, a flag of the United States shall be fined not more than $100,000, imprisoned for not more than 1 year, or both.

Here's the Durbin Amendment http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP4543:

``(a) Definition of Flag of the United States.--In this section, the term `flag of the United States' means any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, in any size, in a form that is commonly displayed as a flag and that would be taken to be a flag by the reasonable observer.

``(b) Actions Promoting Violence.--Any person who destroys or damages a flag of the United States with the primary purpose and intent to incite or produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace, and under circumstances in which the person knows that it is reasonably likely to produce imminent violence or a breach of the peace, shall be fined not more than $100,000, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

``(c) Flag Burning.--Any person who shall intentionally threaten or intimidate any person or group of persons by burning, or causing to be burned, a flag of the United States shall be fined not more than $100,000, imprisoned for not more than 1 year, or both.

Wow, those are 2 completely different bills :eyes:

[zulchzulu]

118. I'm glad you showed that she CO-SPONSORED the bill

Obama didn't vote for Durbin's amendment...big diffference.

[rinsd]

128. She co-sponsored both bills. And yet again you have your fact wrong.

"Obama didn't vote for Durbin's amendment"

Really? Why don't you just verify this shit before stating so, so you don't look foolish.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00188

http://obama.senate.gov/press/060627-obama_statement_29/

"The Framers made it difficult to amend the Constitution because our founding document should not be changed just because of political concerns or temporary problems. And even the strongest supporters of this amendment are hard-pressed to find more than a few instances of flag burning each year. Those problems were left to be solved through legislation, and I support legislation introduced by Senator Durbin that makes it illegal to burn the flag without changing the Constitution. The Constitution has only been amended 27 times. These amendments include guarantees of our most basic freedoms, the freedom of religion, the right to a trial by jury, the protection against cruel punishment."

[rinsd]

102. Any response to post #81?

[Tellurian]

64. Zulu supports Obama because Obama supports 5 Coal Companies

And Robert Kennedy Jr has debunked Zulchzulu's cred as a reliable information source:

"Now we've all heard the oil industry and the coal industry and their indentured servants in the political process telling us that global climate stability is a luxury that we can't afford. That we have to choose now between economic prosperity on the one hand and environmental protection on the other. And that is a false choice."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3368857

[zulchzulu]

74. So Senator Clinton is against coal?

Who knew...

:crazy:

[draft_mario_cuomo]

86. Ouch! nt

[Tellurian]

94. Sen Clinton is not a Sponsor of the so-called "Clean Coal Bill."..as is Obama..

Sen Clinton is in favor of supporting research into alternative energy sources technology such as bio-fuels, ethanol, wind power and solar power. However, Clean Coal research is included in this package, but is not any indication whatsoever she supports the Bill Obama is sponsoring/co-sponsoring. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/23/AR2007062301424_pf.html

[draft_mario_cuomo]

96. "Clean Coal bill"? Is Frank Luntz working for Obama now?

:rofl:

[Tellurian]

98. Another Flip Flop from Obama...and here's why!

A worthwhile read putting things in perspective and why Obama is a Flip Flopper/just like Kerry:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/23/AR2007062301424_pf.html

"The Bush administration targeted Obama, banking on his rhetoric about thinking outside party lines and his concern for Downstate Illinois. But in the end, he held firm in opposition, saying the bill would worsen pollution while not helping the Illinois coal industry as much as claimed. The bill died in committee on a tie vote. Reaction was swift.

"All of dialogue and rhetoric during the campaign had been pro-coal, and we saw this as a pro-coal initiative," Carbondale Mayor Brad Cole (R) said.

Three months later, Obama saw an opportunity to win back goodwill. He attached a provision to the 2005 energy bill for $85 million over five years to test using Illinois coal to produce transportation fuel."

[zulchzulu]

105. Now with the desperate "flip-flop" routine...

Quoting the Repug mayor of Carbondale to ween out a "flip-flop" is just pathetic...way to go...

[Tellurian]

113. Not desperate.... but True...

He flip-flopped when his opinion was not in line with Republithink!

<cough><cough>...yes, the $85M sure made a difference to the Coal Companies!

Thanks, <cough>, O <cough> Bama! Selling out our Clean Air and Water!

Don't forget to contact RFKJr... Obama is a shoe in for environmental endorsement.

[Ethelk2044]

121. Hillary Clinton Sujpport Coal

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/energy/

The choices we make about energy touch nearly every aspect of our lives. Our economy, our national security, our health, and the future of our planet are all at stake as we make a choice between energy independence and dependence on foreign sources of oil.

Hillary has championed policies that encourage development of alternative energy technologies and reduce our dependence on foreign oil. She has proposed an Apollo Project-like program dedicated to achieving energy independence.

Hillary recognizes that global climate change is one of the most pressing moral issues of our time. She supports policies to reduce carbon emissions and other pollution that contribute to global warming.

In the White House, Hillary will lead the charge to stop global warming by investing in clean energy technologies, establishing a national market-based program to reduce global warming pollution, increasing our fuel efficiency, and restoring the United States' rightful place as a leader in international efforts to address the problem of climate change.

[Hippo_Tron]

65. Wow, a politician playing politicis, who'd a thunk it?

I've been waiting for Obama to get aggressive on his original opposition to the IWR and I'm glad to see that he's doing it.

[Tellurian]

70. Obama can say anything he feels like saying, and he does...his word is meaningless..

Here are a few examples:


#10: Obama Was A Constitutional Law Professor:

At A Recent Fundraiser, Obama Claimed He Was A "Constitutional Law Professor." "'I was a constitutional law professor, which means unlike the current president I actually respect the Constitution,' Obama told an audience at a campaign fundraiser." (Brendan Farrington, "Obama: Bush Fails To Respect The Constitution," The Associated Press, 3/30/07)

* On The University Of Chicago Law School Website, Obama Is Listed As A "Senior Lecturer In Law (On Leave Of Absence)." (University Of Chicago Law School Website, http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/obama, Accessed 3/30/07)

Obama Made This False Claim In His 2004 Senate Race. "Several direct-mail pieces issued for Obama's primary campaign said he was a law professor at the University of Chicago. He is not. He is a senior lecturer (now on leave) at the school. In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles. Details matter." (Lynn Sweet, "Obama's Book: What's Real, What's Not" Chicago Sun-Times, 8/8/04)

#9: Obama's Parents "Got Together" Because Of The 1965 Selma March:

In His Selma Speech, Obama Said His Parents "Got Together" And He Was Born As A Result Of The Selma March. Obama: "Because some folks were willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama, Jr. was born. So don't tell me I don't have a claim on Selma, Alabama." (Senator Barack Obama, Remarks At Brown Chapel AME Church, Selma, AL, 3/4/07)

* "Earlier In The Day At A Prayer Breakfast, The Illinois Democrat Said: 'If It Hadn't Been For Selma, I Wouldn't Be Here.'" (Anne E. Kornblut and Peter Whoriskey, "Clinton, Obama Link Selma March To Present," The Washington Post, 3/5/07)

But Obama Was Born In 1961, 4 YEARS BEFORE The 1965 Selma March. "Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on August 4th, 1961." (Obama For America Website, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/6/07; Anne E. Kornblut and Peter Whoriskey, "Clinton, Obama Link Selma March To Present," The Washington Post, 3/5/07)

#8: Obama Was Fluent In Indonesian As A Child:

Obama's Claim That He Quickly Became Fluent In Indonesian As A Child Was Disputed By A Former Teacher. "Obama has claimed on numerous occasions to have become fluent in Indonesian in six months. Yet those who knew him disputed that during recent interviews. Israella Pareira Darmawan, Obama's 1st-grade teacher, said she attempted to help him learn the Indonesian language by going over pronunciation and vowel sounds. He struggled greatly with the foreign language, she said, and with his studies as a result." (Kirsten Scharnberg and Kim Barker, "The Not-So-Simple Story Of Barack Obama's Youth," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

#7: Obama Mistakenly Received A Letter From A Company In Which He Owned Stock:

"Obama Said At Some Point In Fall 2005 He Got A Stockholder Letter. He Said He Believes It Was From AVI Or Skyterra, But He Couldn't Remember Which Company." (Nedra Pickler, "Obama Unaware Of Investment Conflicts," The Associated Press, 3/7/07)

* According To SEC Records, SkyTerra Did Not Send Investors Its SEC Proxy Forms In Fall 2005. "The origin of the shareholder update Obama referred to remains unclear. SkyTerra, like many public companies, sends investors copies of its Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) proxy forms, also known as 14As, but none were issued during the fall of 2005, according to SEC records." (Elana Schor, "2008 And Counting: Sen. Obama Pivots After Bad Press," The Hill, 3/8/07)

* AVI Investor-Relations Director: "It Doesn't Sound Like Anything We Would Have Sent Out." "AVI generally sends mailings to shareholders or institutional investors that proactively request them or sign up for e-mail lists, said Michael Hubbard, AVI's investor-relations director. 'It doesn't sound like anything we would have sent out,' Hubbard said." (Elana Schor, "2008 And Counting: Sen. Obama Pivots After Bad Press," The Hill, 3/8/07)

#6: Obama's Campaign Only Had "Very Attenuated" Ties To The "1984" Ad Creator:

Obama Suggested That "1984" Ad Creator Phil De Vellis Was The Equivalent Of A Contract Employee And Therefore Could Not Be Held Responsible For His Conduct. "Thursday, Obama said of de Vellis that his campaign had no way of knowing who this person was.' 'If I have a phone contract with Verizon and an employee of a phone company does something that you know ... we're not responsible for that,' Obama said." (Jake Tapper and Jonathan Greenberger, "Anti-Clinton Ad Maker Lived With Obama Senate Staffer," ABC News, 3/23/07)

De Vellis Is An Employee Of Blue State Digital, A Computer Firm Consulting For Obama. "Obama's campaign says it had no role in creating or posting the ad. But Wednesday, Democratic operative Philip de Vellis took credit for the ad. It turned out that he worked for Blue State Digital, a computer firm that is among Obama's consultants." (Dan Morain, "Ad Creator Claimed Role In Obama Campaign," Los Angeles Times, 3/23/07)

* Joe Rospars, A Co-Founder Of Blue State Digital, Is Now Obama's Director Of New Media. "Blue State helped design Obama's Web site, and one of the firm's founding members, Joe Rospars, took a leave from the company to work as Obama's director of new media." (Jim Kuhnhenn, "Anti-Clinton Ad Puts Spotlight On Obama," The Associated Press, 3/23/07)

"On Thursday, An Earlier E-Mail Surfaced In Which De Vellis Boasted To Numerous People About His Role In The Creation Of A Web Page, My.BarackObama. Com, A Site Designed By Blue State Digital." (Dan Morain, "Ad Creator Claimed Role In Obama Campaign," Los Angeles Times, 3/23/07)

Obama's Press Secretary Recently Lived With De Vellis, Undermining Obama's Previous Statements That His Campaign Had Only "Very Attenuated" Ties. "The press secretary for Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., recently lived with the creator of the scathingly satirical YouTube video ad that attacked Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., a revelation that seems to undermine the senator's claim that he and his campaign had only 'very attenuated' ties with the ad's creator." (Jake Tapper and Jonathan Greenberger, "Anti-Clinton Ad Maker Lived With Obama Senate Staffer," ABC News, 3/23/07)

#5: Obama's Campaign Didn't Have The "Technical Capacity" To Produce The "1984" Ad:

Obama Claims Campaign Didn't Have The "Technical Capacity" To Create The Ad. Obama: "But it's not something that we had anything to do with or were aware of and that frankly, given what it looks like, we don't have the technical capacity to create something like that." (CNN's "Larry King Live," 3/24/07)

But The Creator Admitted All It Took Was A "Sunday Afternoon" On His Mac. Phillip de Vellis: "I made the ad on a Sunday afternoon in my apartment using my personal equipment (a Mac and some software), uploaded it to YouTube, and sent links around to blogs." (The Huffington Post, "I Made the "Vote Different" Ad," Posted By Phil De Vellis, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-de-vellis-aka-parkri... Posted 3/21/07 )

#4: Obama's Campaign Claimed His High School Friend Tried To Extort Money From Them:

"According To The Obama Campaign, Kakugawa Explicitly Raised The Possibility That He Could Make Up False Stories About Obama, Implying He Would Do So If The Campaign Did Not Give Him Money." (Maurice Possley, Kirsten Scharnberg and Ray Gibson, "An Old Friend's Troublesome Return," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

Kakugawa Was "Infuriated" By The Charge And Flatly Denied It. "That allegation infuriated Kakugawa, prompting him to speak to the Tribune after repeatedly refusing to do so. 'You must understand, I am not an extortionist,' he said in a telephone interview from Los Angeles, where he is living out of a car with an acquaintance after being released from a California prison on March 10. 'Listen, I'm homeless. ... I ask everyone I know for money.'" (Maurice Possley, et al, "An Old Friend's Troublesome Return," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)
* "Kakugawa Wouldn't Discuss His School Days With Obama Other Than To Say He Considered The Senator 'A Brother' And 'Wouldn't Do A Damn Thing To Ever Hurt His Campaign.'" (Maurice Possley, et al, "An Old Friend's Troublesome Return," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

#3: Obama Places Himself In The Central Role In The Altgeld Gardens Asbestos Campaign:

Obama "Unfairly Omits Others Responsible For The Successes Of The Asbestos Campaign." "And though most memoirs place their authors at the center of events, critics of Dreams From My Father say the book unfairly omits others responsible for the successes of the asbestos campaign, an event that Obama portrays as central to his maturation as a political leader." (Peter Wallsten, "Obama Memoir Left Out Credits For Activism, Critics Say," Los Angeles Times, 2/19/07)

"Obama Did Not Play The Singular Role In The Asbestos Episode." "They say Obama did not play the singular role in the asbestos episode that he portrays in the best-selling memoir 'Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.' Credit for pushing officials to deal with the cancer-causing substance, according to interviews and news accounts from that period, also goes to a well-known preexisting group at Altgeld Gardens and to a local newspaper called the Chicago Reporter. Obama does not mention either one in his book." (Peter Wallsten, "Obama Memoir Left Out Credits For Activism, Critics Say," Los Angeles Times, 2/19/07)

#2: Obama Had Heated Discussions With A High School Friend Named "Ray" About Racial Issues:

Although Obama Recounts "Heated Conversations About Racism" With A Character He Calls "Ray," The Real "Ray" Says It Never Happened. "In his best-selling autobiography, 'Dreams from My Father,' Obama describes having heated conversations about racism with another black student, 'Ray.' The real Ray, Keith Kakugawa . . . said he does recall long, soulful talks with the young Obama and that his friend confided his longing and loneliness. But those talks, Kakugawa said, were not about race. 'Not even close' . . ." (Kirsten Scharnberg and Kim Barker, "The Not-So-Simple Story Of Barack Obama's Youth," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

Obama Did Not Participate In Discussions On Race With His Fellow Black Classmates In High School. "The handful of black students who attended Punahou School in Hawaii, for instance, say they struggled mightily with issues of race and racism there. But absent from those discussions, they say, was another student then known as Barry Obama." (Kirsten Scharnberg and Kim Barker, "The Not-So-Simple Story Of Barack Obama's Youth," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

#1: Seeing A Photograph In Life Or Ebony Magazine Changed Obama's Life:

The Life Magazine Article And Photograph Obama Discusses "Doesn't Exist." "Then there's the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don't exist, say the magazine's own historians." (Kirsten Scharnberg and Kim Barker, "The Not-So-Simple Story Of Barack Obama's Youth," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

Obama Volunteered It May Have Been Ebony Magazine, But No Such Ebony Article Matched Obama's Description. "When asked about the discrepancy, Obama said in a recent interview, 'It might have been an Ebony or it might have been ... who knows what it was?' (At the request of the Tribune, archivists at Ebony searched their catalogue of past articles, none of which matched what Obama recalled.)" (Kirsten Scharnberg and Kim Barker, "The Not-So-Simple Story Of Barack Obama's Youth," Chicago Tribune, 3/25/07)

[zulchzulu]

76. Did you just type that?

Wow. It looks like a cut n' paste from an Obama hit site...

I'll be glad to debunk when I get a chance. It looks like a lot of half-truths and bullshit to me.

[William769]

77. At your leisure, but as I have noticed with you.

You come in make a big splash and disappear, I know you won't let me down again.

[zulchzulu]

78. Sorry, but I'm busy working...

I don't live on DU. Like you...

[William769]

79. So then I guess we will see you after work then.

I suggest you tell Skinner, I don't think he likes squatters.

[Tellurian]

92. Looking forward to Zulchzulu debunking this post as well..(after work, of course...)

The Obama Illusion Presidential ambitions from the start

* lent his support to the aptly named Hamilton Project, formed by corporate-neoliberal Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and “other Wall Street Democrats” to counter populist rebellion against corporatist tendencies within the Democratic Party

* lent his politically influential and financially rewarding assistance to neoconservative pro-war Senator Joe Lieberman

* supported other “mainstream Democrats” fighting antiwar progressives in primary races

* criticized efforts to enact filibuster proceedings against reactionary Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito.

* voted for a business-friendly “tort reform” bill that rolls back working peoples’ ability to obtain reasonable redress and compensation from misbehaving corporations

* oppose the introduction of single-payer national health insurance on the grounds that such a widely supported social-democratic change would lead to employment difficulties for workers in the private insurance industry

* expressed reservations about a universal health insurance plan recently enacted in Massachusetts, stating his preference for “voluntary” solutions over “government mandates.”

* voted to re-authorize the repressive PATRIOT Act

* voted for the appointment of the war criminal Condaleeza Rice to (of all things) Secretary of State

* opposed Senator Russ Feingold’s (D-WI) move to censure the Bush administration after the president was found to have illegally wiretapped U.S. citizens

* distanced himself from fellow Illinois Democratic Senator Dick Durbin’s forthright criticism of U.S. torture practices at Guantanamo

* refuses to foreswear the use of first-strike nuclear weapons against Iran

* makes a big point of respectfully listening to key parts of the right wing agenda even though that agenda is well outside majority sentiment

* joins victim-blaming Republicans in pointing to poor blacks’ “cultural” issues as the cause of concentrated black poverty

* he claims that blacks have joined the American “socioeconomic mainstream” even as median black household net worth falls to less than eight cents on the median white household dollar

* “If the Democrats don’t show a willingness to work with the president, I think they could be punished in ‘08”

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2007/street0207.html

Obama rallies state Democrats, throws support behind Lieberman

By Stephanie Reitz, Associated Press Writer | March 31, 2006
…
Lieberman, Connecticut's junior senator, is under fire from some liberal Democrats for his support of the Iraq War. He was key in booking Obama, who routinely receives more than 200 speaking invitations each week.
…
"The fact of the matter is, I know some in the party have differences with Joe. I'm going to go ahead and say it," Obama told the 1,700-plus party members who gathered in a ballroom at the Connecticut Convention Center for the $175-per-head fundraiser.

"I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf," he said.

New Obama biography...paints him as a more calculating pol than his supporters believe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3331119

Rezko cash triple what Obama says DONATIONS $168,000 traced to indicted businessman, associates over the years

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3332818


Obama: Favors for now-indicted Developer...contradicting earlier statements?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3316428

[Ethelk2044]

104. Debunk Rezko Cash Money Has been Proven to be a Lie

Media matters have already proved your accusation is inaccurate.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200706190011

Dobbs falsely claimed Sun-Times report said Obama received "at least $168,000" from indicted businessman
On the June 18 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs falsely claimed that the Chicago Sun-Times reported that Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama (IL) "received at least $168,000 from" indicted businessman Antoin "Tony" Rezko. But the Sun-Times did not report that Obama received $168,000 from Rezko, nor could he have; it reported in a June 18 article that "Obama has collected at least $168,308 from Rezko and his circle" -- an assertion that, the article reported, is itself disputed by the Obama campaign.

According to the Center for Responsible Politics, Rezko donated $11,500 to Obama's 2004 Senate campaign, as well as $1,000 to Obama's unsuccessful 2000 campaign for an Illinois House seat, not the $168,000 Dobbs claimed the Sun-Times reported. Rezko's wife, Rita, donated $1,500 to Obama's 2004 Senate campaign and $1,000 to Obama's 2000 House campaign. As The New York Times explained in an April 3 article: "Mr. Obama was able to accept up to $12,000 from each donor, or six times the limit at that time," because he was running against "a self-financed opponent in the Democratic primary."

The Sun-Times reported that "Obama has collected at least $168,308 from Rezko and his circle. Obama also has taken in an unknown amount of money from people who attended fund-raising events hosted by Rezko since the mid-1990s." The Sun-Times further reported that "the campaign was sticking by its original estimate that Rezko raised no more than $60,000."

[zulchzulu]

106. Wait for the Hillbots to say Media Matters is a "left wing organization"

I swear these guys are Republicans...why do they want to lose in 2008?

[Tellurian]

108. Can't refute post # 92?

Ah, well- I expected as much from you!

[SaveElmer]

109. Waiting for the Obamatons to claim Hillary supporters are Republicans...

Oops...guess you just did that...

Shocking!

[zulchzulu]

117. Not all Repugs want Senator Clinton as the nominee

There is this guy...

[SaveElmer]

119. Or this guy...

[zulchzulu]

116. Oh...yeah...Paul Street...

Hey, debunk this when you get a chance:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12120

Street is an obvious bitter Kucinich fan. It shows. He's not valid enough to debunk.

[Tellurian]

131. Easy!....

July 10, 2007

ARG Obama Home State of Illinois poll stunner:

Clinton 33%, Obama 37%, Edwards 10%.

Chicago Sun-Times:"White House hopeful Barack Obama does not have a lock on the primary in his home state, according to a new American Research Group Illinois poll. The ARG poll--600 telephone interviews of likely Democratic voters and 509 people who said they were Democrats and 91 who said they were Independents--was taken between July 6-9. That period includes all the upbeat publicity Obama gained in the Illinois press coming in first in the money primary."

[zulchzulu]

149. Wanna wager on who wins Illinois on Feb. 5?

I have $100 that says Obama wins (continuing his other victories)...

[Tellurian]

151. Keep your $100... I want to breathe clean air...

and will work to defeat Obama because he is not a candidate with our best interests at heart..

Talk to his constituents that froze without heat over a long hard winter in his district because he was too involved protecting a huge donor to his campaign, their landlord!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

88. Does anyone dispute these claims? nt

[zulchzulu]

93. Debunking the RNC talking points posted by the Clinton supporter

A number of the "accusations" are based on cherry-picking passages from Obama's books and trying to deflate the meaning. A majority of the "accusations" are about recollections that Obama had when he was a child. Instead of reading about how certain instances shaped his intellect, it's a cheap, desperate hit job to scrutinize with a juvenile vengeance. It's to be expected from Clinton supporters. I'm sure they wouldn't want RNC talking points about the Clintons to be posted here on DU. It might crash the servers.


#10: Obama Was A Constitutional Law Professor

He did teach at the University Of Chicago Law School teaching constitutional law for 10 years. That sounds like a professor to me. As for his status now, he is on leave. Probably because he's a Senator...


#9: Obama's Parents "Got Together" Because Of The 1965 Selma March

Of course, the quote used was taken out of context. Here is the full paragraph:
"This young man named Barack Obama got one of those tickets and came over to this country. He met this woman whose great great-great-great-grandfather had owned slaves; but she had a good idea there was some craziness going on because they looked at each other and they decided that we know that the world as it has been it might not be possible for us to get together and have a child. There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born. So don't tell me I don't have a claim on Selma, Alabama. Don't tell me I’m not coming home to Selma, Alabama."
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/03/obamas_selma_speech_text_as_de.html


#8: Obama Was Fluent In Indonesian As A Child

Obama spoke Indonesian as a child. Being fluent in a language as a child is not the same as someone who speaks a language over many years. Picking on the level of fluency of Obama as a child seems a touch ridiculous...


#7: Obama Mistakenly Received A Letter From A Company In Which He Owned Stock

I have no idea why this is even a story... Obama has a broker manage his stocks in a blind trust. From an article, the stocks in question didn't even amount to any reasonable profits:

"The reports found no evidence that any of his actions ended up benefiting either company during the roughly eight months he owned the stocks. Obama lost about $15,000 on Skyterra and earned a profit of about $2,000 on AVI. Skyterra stocks continued to drop after Obama divested."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/07/AR2007030700611.html


#6: Obama's Campaign Only Had "Very Attenuated" Ties To The "1984" Ad Creator

The 1984 ad remake, which I thought was very good, was done by someone who did it on his own computer. Philip de Vellis then uploaded the animation to YouTube. He worked at a company that has done work for Obama, but it's not up to Obama to make sure what someone does on their own time is his business. Besides, Philip de Vellis was fired by Blue State Digital anyway.


#5: Obama's Campaign Didn't Have The "Technical Capacity" To Produce The "1984" Ad

Again, this issue is a desperate attempt. Philip de Vellis admits he did the animation on his Mac. He doesn't work for the Obama campaign.


#4: Obama's Campaign Claimed His High School Friend Tried To Extort Money From Them

Again, this is an issue? This story brings into question the word of a homeless man who did time in prison because he's a drug felon. If the Clinton people want to make this an issue, by all means do. Why on Earth would Obama make up a story about some dirtbag who wanted money to shut him up about false stories he'd threaten to release?


#3: Obama Places Himself In The Central Role In The Altgeld Gardens Asbestos Campaign

Obama was pivitol in helping get asbestos removed from the Altgeld Gardens project. The point of his mentioning that effort was that he was willing to be a grassroots organizer than just becoming a lawyer at the time.


#2: Obama Had Heated Discussions With A High School Friend Named "Ray" About Racial Issues

Whether Obama did or didn't discuss racism with all the cliques in his high school is rather meaningless in the scheme of things. Obama is black and obviously had to deal with issues of racism on a daily basis. This is more cherry-picking from his books for a cheap shot hit.

#1: Seeing A Photograph In Life Or Ebony Magazine Changed Obama's Life

Putting the scrutiny of a 9-year-old Obama and whether the photo he saw of a beat up black man was Ebony or not is another desperate attempt at not looking at the issue that Obama saw as a child. Was it Ebony? Was it Life? Was it Newsweek? Who fucking cares. He saw the photo and it stirred him as...a nine year old.

[Tellurian]

95. I see nothing in the way of hard evidence refuting the claims made, except of course ....

your personal opinion!
\
Please try post #92...

Please provide links as proof to your refutations. We like you, but we don't Trust your opines!

I think, you know why!

[zulchzulu]

99. Your RNC "talking points" on Obama aren't even original

Then again...neither is your candidate of choice...

[Tellurian]

100. These prognostications were Obama's benchmarks of things to come..

Please refer back to post #92

Then to where the Coal Flip/Flops are mentioned in the link...because Obama was taking heat from Bush!

[William769]

101. And wheres your proof they are RNC talking points?

You seem to say a lot with nothing to back it up. :eyes:

[zulchzulu]

103. Media Matters SKEWERS the RNC talking points posted on Obama

http://mediamatters.org/items/200704100025

I know...Media Matters is a "far-left organization"...

:crazy:

[Tellurian]

110. Typical. Bill Burton's opinion refuting Obama's self congratulatory attributes..

Laughable, a Kerry loaner. Nothing new here- move on, nothing new to see here.

How about post #92...did you forget?

[SaveElmer]

111. Media Matters SKEWERS the "Progressive" Talking point that Hillary Voted "For War"....

http://mediamatters.org/items/200705010006

I know...Media Matters is a "tool of the Clintons"

:crazy:

[Tellurian]

114. Good One! ZING!

So many MM *matters*, so little time! :)

[Ethelk2044]

132. I know even when they take up for Hill

[zulchzulu]

120. Senator Clinton DID vote for the IWR...

In her speech before the Senate, she said this:

"So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed."

Even monkeys in the local zoo knew that Bush was going to attack Iraq. I and millions on the street protested the upcoming war back in 2002. She voted for Bush to do what "he felt needed to be done" at the same time that Obama thought it was a "dumb war".

Whose judgment do I trust?

[SaveElmer]

125. Who said she didn't vote for the IWR?...nt

[Scriptor Ignotus]

107. you swayed me!!

Obama says a business sent him stock information! But maybe they didn't!!! Holy fucking shit!!!! HE JUST LOST MY VOTE!!!



Please, if those are the biggest skeletons in Obama's closet then he is an even better candidate than I originally thought.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

87. It is a sign of weakness

If he has to play the 2002 card--his best card--6 months before the voting begins what does that tell you? If this doesn't work what does he have left in his arsenal?

[Ethelk2044]

133. One thing isn't is weak. He has stated the war was wrong from the beginning

His ability to make good judgement calls. He does not try to pander or avoid questions. Unlike some.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

136. He avoided the question on homosexuality/Gen. Pace 3 times in one walk

;)

Sure, but if he is using his best artillery 6 months before the voting begins what will he have left in crunch-time? He is taking a necessary gamble here.

[oasis]

85. Big K and R.

:kick:

[illinoisprogressive]

112. Obama has alway stayed consistent. Unlike Hillary who changes with the wind.

[Tellurian]

115. Not according to the proof provided on this thread..

Read it and understand the hypocrisy of Obama...

If you like, I can point you to the salient posts, if you are having difficulty finding them.

[TeamJordan23]

123. Not according to this:

http://www.answers.com/topic/barack-obama-s-iraq-speech

Where was Hillary in 2002?

[Ethelk2044]

127. Not reading the information provided to her.

Leader pushing the cause for the vote for the admendment. It should have been important enough for her to read the admendment. Men and women lives were going to be at stake.

[maximusveritas]

129. He's consistent because we now know Hillary did not read the intelligence

His previous statement was based up the idea that she had read it. In such a case, without knowing what that intelligence said, Obama gave Hillary the benefit of the doubt that she made the best decision she could. Now, however, we know that she (along with Edwards and the other war supporters), never read the intelligence report. They voted to give the authority to a madman to put our troops in harm's way without even reading the intelligence available. For that, they deserve much worse than what Obama said.

[Ethelk2044]

130. Excellent Post.

[Tellurian]

134. Where does Hillary say she did not read the NIE Report?

Are you aware, Sen Joe Biden, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he held a closed session at which members could read the report along with top CIA officials?

[maximusveritas]

135. She admitted it in the debates

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0706/05/se.01.html

Blitzer asks if she regrets not reading it and she says she was briefed on it so she thinks that was good enough. Edwards says nearly the same thing.

[Tellurian]

137. When was she Republican presidential candidate? nt

[maximusveritas]

138. My bad. Here's the correct link.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0706/03/se.01.html

[Tellurian]

139. The transcript is inconclusive... If you recorded a video of the event..

I watched that debate. When Bitzer asked Hillary if she read the NIE report, she was shaking her head in the affirmative, adding, "I feel like I was totally briefed. I knew all of the arguments that were being made by everyone from all directions. National intelligence estimates have a consensus position and then they have argumentation as to those people who don't agree with it. I thought the best way to find out who was right in the intelligence community was to send in the inspectors."

Plus Biden added he made the Report available behind closed doors..

[maximusveritas]

140. He didn't ask her IF she read it. He asked WHY she didn't read it

So if she was shaking her head in the affirmative, then she was just agreeing with his assertion that she didn't read it.

[Tellurian]

141. Not necessarily..Unless you have a statement with Hillary saying...

definitively, she did not read the NIE report, one could vary, she was agreeing with herself that she had been thoroughly briefed. And unless, you have a quote from Hillary stating she did not read the report, there is still reasonable doubt whether she was agreeing with Bitzer or herself.

[maximusveritas]

142. No doubt at all

It's pretty clear what her position is. She didn't read the full report (as Blitzer noted), but did get briefed on it. Edwards later states the same thing.

[Tellurian]

143. Clarity rests on proof...there is no definitive proof.. and therefore no clarity..

just nuanced assumptions...All Edwards said was he agreed with much of what Hillary had to say, and he did not specify exactly what that included. So, it isn't a fair assumption to believe what Edwards said would be in total agreement with what was said by Hillary. Inferences are not considered conclusive proof, not in a court of law anyway.

[maximusveritas]

144. Ugh. Why do I even try?

I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion and you're trying to spin for Hillary. Forget it.

[Tellurian]

146. Because you're not hearing the answer you want to hear?

If you could prove what you think you know, you would.

[BeyondGeography]

148. Apparently, the whole damned world knows she didn't read the NIE except for you

<Report: Clinton didn't read National Intelligence Estimate before Iraq vote

Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., didn't read the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq before she voted in 2002 to authorize the president to use military force against Saddam Hussein, according to new reports.

The Washington Post, which obtained a copy of Her Way: The Hopes and Ambitions of Hillary Rodham Clinton, says a spokesman "seemed to confirm" the book's claim that Clinton didn't read the NIE before she cast a vote that has proved controversial during her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

In an e-mail, spokesman Phillipe Reines tells the paper that Clinton was "briefed multiple times by several members of the administration on their intelligence regarding Iraq, including being briefed on the NIE."

Back in 2005, a conservative publication, Human Events, says it asked Clinton if she was one of the six senators who reportedly read the 96-page report before they voted on the use-of-force resolution. “I’m not going to say anything about that. Just let the intelligence committee do their work, okay?” she said at the time, according to a report on the magazine's website.>

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/05/report_clinton_.html

For most thinking people on the planet, the above statements and her dance around the question in the NH debate are confirmation enough.

[Tellurian]

150. Except, that people who deal in "specifics" and "facts" are not convinced...

Circumstantial evidence is always revered as gospel by the desperate to find a hook where there is none!

[Capn Sunshine]

145. America likes Obama. record setting donations for a Democratic candidate.

Scoreboard.

All your pointless posting on a website in cyberspace doesn't change the facts:
Americans like what they see in Obama and donate accordingly. All your energetic posting on a website didn't discourage this.
Record.Setting.

Think about that.

[Tellurian]

147. Um, think about this!

See Post #131:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3369174&mesg_id=3371027