Will Kucinich apologize if he cannot pass an immediate withdrawal bill within 120 days?

[LoZoccolo]

After all, he voted "no" on yesterday's bill, which would start a withdrawal within 120 days, in favor of some theoretical forthcoming immediate withdrawal bill. If that does not come, then his vote yesterday, which saw him side with the Republicans, will have been in vain. Do you think he will apologize if this happens?

[AndyA]

1. I couldn't believe it when I heard he voted NO.

WTF, Dennis? Do you want the troops home or not? Vote YES, get the countdown started, then try to move it up. But to vote no just because it wasn't soon enough is childish and not presidential.

We already have a spoiled little man in the White House that only 26% of the people approve of. Do you think you're going to get elected doing more of the same?

[John Q. Citizen]

5. He voted no because he won't vote to fund the illegal occupation. The bill

included funding.

He's not a war criminal, and he won't fund an illegal occupation designed to secure Iraqs oil and land for bases.

[LoZoccolo]

7. You do not get out of your responsibility by denying reality.

And the reality is, the Republicans don't even want to withdrawal within 120 day, and he sided with them and advanced their agenda. Pretending that one's actions do not have the consequences that they do is not an excuse.

[John Q. Citizen]

15. The truth is most Dems just want a smaller foot print not a complete withdrawal.

They still cling to the hope of controlling all that oil, of super bases, and of American Empire.

But of course that's also your position, so it's easy to see right through your posturing.

[LoZoccolo]

16. Dennis has done nothing but side with the Republicans.

And while the Democrats have started to bring our troops home, he will still have done nothing. Will he take responsibility for sitting idly by?

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Kucinich has a clearly stated plan to end the war.

But you know that.

[LoZoccolo]

25. That doesn't matter if he's neglecting the possible for the impossible. n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

28. Problem is...

nobody else in DC seems to give a shit about his plan.

Lotsa people have plans-- the hard part is getting them into action.

[ProudDad]

42. Gee, the corporate

Congress, bought and paid for by this bunch, don't give a shit about Kucinich's plans...



Who would'a thunk it????

[Warren Stupidity]

Yeah so we have to support them in their bullshit half measures

that go nowhere 'cause they won't support the one effective thing congress can do to end the war. See? It is so simple, we can't win so we have to pretend to win. We can't end the war so we have to pretend we are ending the war. I have so freaking had it.

[TreasonousBastard]

55. It doesn't make any difference WHY he can't...

get his ideas across, does it? In politics, all that counts are the results.

No matter what the reason, if he can't get stuff done he's ineffective. Taht doesn't make him a bad person, just irrelevant.

[ProudDad]

59. Well, I'm glad to see that

in spite of Dennis Kucinich's impotence, the other effective Dems and their "leadership" have ended the war...

Uh, or slowed it down....

Uh, or, uh, what have they done again?

[John Q. Citizen]

21. He has a great bill in congress to end it, but it doesn't help steal oil so it's a no go.

[LoZoccolo]

23. And yet that doesn't release him for being responsible for what he can do. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. Will all the other dems in congress apologise

for not signing onto immediate withdrawal?

[ProudDad]

44. Hey, Nimrod

the stupid bill passed anyway...

And if it passes the Senate (not likely) it will be vetoed...

Hot air.

Bullshit legislation...

If it has funding in it, I wouldn't have voted for it either...

[maxanne]

54. aha

He should abandon his principles - and then you could criticize him for that!

[Yukari Yakumo]

65. "Dennis has done nothing but side with the Republicans." noooo...

...really?

[AndyA]

31. Meanwhile, troops are dying.

You have to do what you must do to get them out of harm's way as soon as possible. You don't just let them sit over there getting blown up because you don't like all of the terms.

We need to get our troops home, and let them work over here in safety to protect our borders, ports, etc. Security begins at home.

[John Q. Citizen]

37. So a smaller footprint is the answer? I think HR1234 is the answer. The Dems don't

say how much smaller or really what the plan they support is, with the exception of Kucinich.

If they brought half the troops home and left the other half, that would be very Nixonian.

Remember his secret paln to end the war in Vietnam? It reminds me of the Dems secret plan to end the occupation. i didn't support Nixons solution and I don't support leaving tens of thousands of troops in Iraq for the next 10 or 15 years.

Stealing the oil has failed and Dems need to come to grips with this, not be given a second chance to steal it better and on more politcally acceptable terms.

[ProudDad]

46. HR 1234

http://kucinich.us/iraqplan

Where are the Dems when it comes to actually ending the war???

<crickets>

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. So why wait four months?

That's another 400 US dead, thousands more Iraqis, and billions more dollars lost.

You have to do what you must do to get them out of harm's way as soon as possible. You don't just let them sit over there getting blown up because you don't like all of the terms.

We need to get our troops home, and let them work over here in safety to protect our borders, ports, etc. Security begins at home.

Yours is an argument for immediate withdrawal - not for delay and obfuscation. We can start bringing them out next week and have them all gone in 120 days.

What are we waiting for?

[TeamJordan23]

2. Yah, who are the candidates that VOTED for the War in the first place.

Billions wasted and Thousands dead. Thanks!

[Forkboy]

3. You just don't like anything on anyone on the left.

I can see going after Nader,he's not a Dem.But you love to go after anyone on the left,Democrat or not,apparently.

[LoZoccolo]

4. That is not true.

There are like nine candidates, and I don't have to like every one of them.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. I've noticed that too. Always going after the left, always supportive of empire America.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Don't make excuses for not addressing my points.

You will find great reward in not doing so. The truth is that Kucinich made an unwise decision, and one that will probably end up ineffective toward his own aims.

[Buck Rabbit]

39. Not really, every vote including Kucinich's was symbollic. This bill

has no chance of becoming law, and everyone who voted for or against it knew that.

It has no chance to get past the Senate and would be vetoed if it was.

[JANdad]

6. Yeah!

Gotta love that my way or the highway or you're either with us or against us mentality huh?

[The Magistrate]

11. We Have Discussed Purity v. Expedience Before, My Friend

When the postures are stripped away, there was a side of this vote the administration prefered, and one it denounced, and people lined up on either side of that divide. The reasons people give for casting the vote the administration wanted mean little beside the fact of the vote they cast. It does not matter to me whether people voted against this Bill because they support the war, or because they fear for their chances at re-election, or because they do not think it does enough quickly enough.

[John Q. Citizen]

38. So the measure of any issue is bush support or opposition? That's brillant.

Impeach now!

Glad to have you aboard.

[The Magistrate]

40. Impeachment Seems A Good Course To Me, Sir

And has for some while. There is ground-work to be done before actually making the move: the coming autumn looks like it will be a pretty ripe time for the strike. The popular mood does not at present come close to favoring the action, but there are indications people would favor it for specific crimes, most noteably the felonies involved in the secret wire-tapping campaign. The charges need to be nailed down tight, and things allowed to fester a good deal more, till the whiff of dictatorship and failure mingle into a sufficiently noxious odor to over-come the people's general distaste for an action they consider tantamount to attempting to overturn an election result, something people are mostly loyal to even if the outcome was not the one they favored.

But in political action aimed at reversing the course of the country in Iraq, Sir, yes, that is a pretty good rule of thumb for what the right course for a people's representative to adopt is.

"The soundest policy is to postpone operations till the moral decay of the enemy renders their success a certainty."

[ProudDad]

51. The process toward Impeachment

seems well and truly launched, my friend...

"Bush blocks aid testimony"
http://www.denverpost.com/meyer/ci_6332276

"Hill Panel Initiates Contempt Charges Against Miers"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071200136.html?hpid=topnews

And so it begins...

It's like deja vu all over again...

[The Magistrate]

52. Indeed, sir: Things Are Looking Up

"When you strike a King, you must kill him."

[Forkboy]

64. With all due respect...

I'm very sick of the "purity" stuff.It gets lobbed towards the left all too often,when the fact is we on the left who compromise time and time again.I've never asked for purity,nor do I expect it.I can barely find matching socks so I'm not asking for a candidate who can part oceans.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't agree with Dennis' vote on this.Whether it goes anywhere or not doesn't matter.What matters is that the majority of Dems did the right thing.It's another front on the attack against these bastards,and I welcome each one,whether it be Cindy Sheehan or this vote here.They all play a part.I believe Dennis was wrong to not support it.

My comment above was directed specifically at the poster,who in my entire time here at DU has pissed on those to left of him in the name of defending the Party,regardless of whether those people are Democrats or not.It's a consistent pattern,and one that is both counterintuitive and destructive to very thing he claims to be helping.

[LoZoccolo]

67. I still maintain that trying to find a "pattern" in my actions is an excuse...

...for not addressing each argument on it's own merits. I think I make a good point here that it is ridiculous to praise someone for "taking a stand" that they cannot do anything productive with or follow through with, and shows a lack of discipline and responsibility to not just encourage, but expect that behavior from our elected leaders, and then castigate the rest of our representatives for not being as reckless and grandstanding. It is vanity in a very deep sense, and I feel that it is a cheap trick by Kucinich.

By far, the most controversial topics I raise are responsibility and discipline, not centrism or the DLC.

[laststeamtrain]

10. Yes he will. Just to you. To keep the peace.

And then he will show you pictures of cute puppies.

But then the phone will ring & he'll need to get back to work.

He's a very nice, but busy man.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. End the war. Stop funding it.

You stop the funding by defeating bills that include more funds for the war. You continue the war by passing bills that include more funds for the war.

End the war. Stop funding it.

[LoZoccolo]

14. "You stop the funding by defeating bills that include more funds for the war."

So if in 120 days, he doesn't do that, will he apologize? Because by then this bill would have started doing more than the one he couldn't pass.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. This bill will not make it through the senate.

If by some miracle it does, it will get vetoed. That veto will not get overridden.

[John Q. Citizen]

18. They need the funding to continue paying the mercenaries- the largest force in Iraq

working with the illegal occupation.

Still think we can get our hands on all that oil, don't you?

[LoZoccolo]

19. It is not a good idea to ascribe positions to me that I do not hold. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

22. We follow your example oh great one.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Do you renounce the use of force to aquire oil and bases?

[LoZoccolo]

26. Better than that; I risked getting arrested for being against it.

So this will be the last time you ever falsify what I believe and what I don't, right?

[EST]

13. Dennis Kucinich, no matter what anyone thinks of how he looks,

talks or thinks, is a smart enough politician to be able to figure out that there was a
comfortable enough margin that he could vote for ideology and stand up for what he believes and says.
In some people's eyes, he might be viewed as abandoning the good in pursuit of the perfect, but look at the beating that we give to those who vote with the majority out of convenience, protective coloration, or who have no real opinion but allow the wishes of their party to trump a bit of analysis of their responsibility to humanity.

We call them spineless, political whores, lazy, incompetent braggarts.

And now a man with a dedication to making the world better-or, at least, slowing the decline-a man with enough spine to take a principled stand for the good guys and we kick him to the curb. We shower him with opprobrium.

His dedication and rhetorical spine make him about six-foot-six, with thundering voice and looking like Robert Redford in his prime.

And we give him shit for doing exactly what we demand and give others shit for not doing.

This is worrisome.

[TreasonousBastard]

27. I'll meet ya half way, and...

agree that K is acting out of conscience. And that's not a bad thing.

But, at times he seems divorced from reality and it's more about him getting publicity for his "conscience" than actually accomplishing anything.

[EST]

49. Hokay--probarbly more than I deserve.

[ProudDad]

60. Someone has to be the REAL Leader

Someone has to be in front of the mob...

Eugene Debs, Norman Thomas -- worked for the time when there would be an 8 hour day and a weekend. They were called Nuts. They couldn't get anything done (in their day). They obviously wasted theirs and everyone else's time...

Someone has to be RIGHT and stay right no matter what insults or calumny is hurled in their direction.

It's Dennis' turn this year...


On edit: maybe someday humans will evolve to the point where we can all act on the dictates of our conscience. I doubt that I'll see it. I doubt that humans will allow themselves to evolve that far. But I can hope...

[mike_c]

29. what on earth does he have to apologize for-- not funding the illegal war...?

Sheesh.

[LoZoccolo]

30. For doing less than the rest of the Democrats...

...and as much as the Republicans.

It'd be one thing if he could get his alternate plan passed; another if he refused to take responsibility for his available choices.

[mike_c]

32. I disagree-- anyone who votes against funding the war has my support...

...including republicans. No funds for imperialist war!

[LoZoccolo]

33. Right, we know that that's how you think.

Problem is, the rest of us have to live in that world you're ignoring.

[The Magistrate]

35. So you Support the Republican Caucus In the House, Sir, And Not the Democrats?

And condemn the handful of Republicans who broke ranks with the administration to support this Bill?

[mike_c]

50. on *this issue*, absolutely....

I don't need to triangulate-- I unabashedly support withholding funds for the war against Iraq, no matter who does it.

[The Magistrate]

53. So You 'Unabashedly' Support The Republican Caucus, Acting At the Direction Of Bush?

[TeamJordan23]

34. Did we ever hear an apology from Hillary on voting for the War? nt

[Sparkly]

36. I see your point, but aren't both in vain?

Yesterday's bill won't end up as law, either.

All of it could be seen as messages, posturing, symbolic stances, no?

[rucky]

71. Exactly!

the only thing Congress can do to end it is not bring up any more funding bills.

[ProudDad]

43. You don't have my selection

Will some of the haters on DU stop posting stupid flame bait like this thread???

[LoZoccolo]

45. Representative Kucinich did not do anything useless and counterproductive so stop saying that! n/t

[ProudDad]

62. ?????

what a baffling post...

http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourth-William-Strunk/dp/020530902X

What is that in English???

[LoZoccolo]

63. It is in the same language as this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xOdATCFM30

[ProudDad]

68. Ah, I see

gibberish...

[ProudDad]

48. An Actual plan to end this war

1. The US announces it will end the occupation, close military bases and withdraw.

2. US announces that it will use existing funds to bring the troops and necessary equipment home.

3. Order a simultaneous return of all US contractors to the United States and turn over all contracting work to the Iraqi government.

4. Convene a regional conference for the purpose of developing a security and stabilization force for Iraq.

5. Prepare an international security and peacekeeping force to move in, replacing US troops who then return home.

6. Develop and fund a process of national reconciliation.

7. Reconstruction and Jobs. Restart the failed reconstruction program in Iraq.

8. Reparations. The US and Great Britain have a high moral obligation to enable a peace process by beginning a program of significant reparations to the people of Iraq for the loss of lives, physical and emotional injuries, and damage to property.

9. Political Sovereignty. Put an end to suspicions that the US invasion and occupation was influenced by a desire to gain control of Iraq's oil assets by A) setting aside initiatives to privatize Iraqi oil interests or other national assets, and B) by abandoning efforts to change Iraqi national law to facilitate privatization.

10. Iraq Economy. Set forth a plan to stabilize Iraq's cost for food and energy, on par to what the prices were before the US invasion and occupation.

11. Economic Sovereignty. Work with the world community to restore Iraq's fiscal integrity without structural readjustment measures of the IMF or the World Bank.

12. International Truth and Reconciliation. Establish a policy of truth and reconciliation between the people of the United States and the people of Iraq.

It's all here: http://kucinich.us/iraqplan

Is there a plan on any other candidate's website???



On Edit: So the real roadblock to peace is....

On February 28, 2007, Mr. KUCINICH introduced the following bill; (HR 1234) which was referred to the Committee on Armed Services, and in addition to the Committee on Foreign Affairs, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker

Pelosi and the Dem "leadership"... and, in the interest of FULL DISCLOSURE, the bush veto...

[The Magistrate]

56. One Through Three Are Fine, Sir

Four through twelve will never occur.

No one is going to pull our chestnuts out of the fire by conferring or provided troops for peace-keeping. There will be a clearer pressing of the civil war, and proxy interventions by Iran on one side, and the Saudis and Egypt on the other.

Not one dime will come from the U.S. Congress for reconstruction, reparations, economic development, or any other such thing in Iraq once we depart, and the public would lynch any Representative or Senator who voted for such spending.

[Warren Stupidity]

58. I agree. We get out and we actually GET OUT.

We stop messing with them. Chaos and disorder may likely ensue. Some sort of resolution will follow. When things settle down we ought to pay reparations.

[ProudDad]

61. You may be right

but what a bleak world we live in if you are, my friend...


I still hope for the best while expecting the worst... It's the only way I can stay sane...


No one will pull bush's chestnuts out of the fire but maybe President <insert Dem of your Choice Here> may be able to do it for this war.


Just for grins, let's play what SHOULD be done instead of what probably will be allowed by our corporate masters.

Do you see anything wrong with the plan?

[bigwillq]

57. He shouldn't apologize

DK stood up for what he believes and he doesn't believe we should fund an illegal war.

[goodhue]

66. Dennis has never voted to fund the war!

Why would he start now?

[MrSlayer]

69. Acting like this would ever have become law is ridiculous.

There is nothing to apologize for.

[Dr Fate]

70. I never hear the DLCers or conservative DEMS apologize for any of their bullshit.

Like supporting Joe Lieberman (I-3rd Party), the initial invasion & continued support of the war, voting with Republicans...

But to adress your comments-you have a point I doubt DK or any of them are going to be apologizing for much. I guess Edwards apologized for supporting the war...but you dont hear too many apologies one way or the other...