Obama campaign hires convicted felon to train campaign workers

[wyldwolf]

It was apparent from the first session... that we were in for a well-planned program of instructive lectures and role-playing. Little time would be spent on the issues, since no could put forward his positions than the candidate himself. We would meet some of the key people of the Obama campaign. Our first substantive session on Campaign Culture was led by Bob Creamer of the Strategic Consulting Group. He provided an information-packed presentation starting with a general theory of campaigns, getting a candidate elected, what makes a great campaign, the targeting of “persuadable” and “mobilizable” voters, application of quantitative approaches, and different forms of messaging and research.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/markwiznitzer

The husband of an Illinois congresswoman pleaded guilty Wednesday to tax violations and bank fraud for writing rubber checks and failing to collect withholding tax from an employee.

Robert Creamer, a political consultant married to four-term U.S. Rep. Jan Schakowsky, could face four years in prison on the two felony counts when he is sentenced Dec. 21.

Creamer, 58, a prominent Chicago political consultant, was accused of swindling nine financial institutions of at least $2.3 million while he ran a public interest group in the 1990s.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-31-congresswoman-husband_x.htm

[William769]

1. Him and Rezko should work well together. NT

K&R!

[SaveElmer]

2. What will be the strategy here...

1. Ignore the thread hoping it drops out of sight

2. Try and discredit the USATODAY as a right wing rag

3. Blame Hillary for leaking the story, or alternatively, try and redirect the topic to the war...

[wyldwolf]

4. you forgot the "guilt by association" approach

...Mark Penn ring a bell?

[William769]

6. I'm waiting for Fox news to be used here as a credible news source.

:rofl:

[SaveElmer]

9. Looks like #2...

The USATODAY is now a smutty rag!!!

[Tellurian]

96. Obama will try the "convolution" diversion...

His supporters understand things better when they're convoluted..

[jefferson_dem]

3. WOW. What kind of smutty site directed you to this little "guilt by association" smear?

Desperate tasteless deflection.

[BeyondGeography]

5. They're having a bad day

maybe a new meaningless poll will come out tomorrow so they can feel better.

[William769]

8. Actually we are having a great day!

The big news story thats all over DU is guess what? All over Only DU! :rofl:

[wyldwolf]

12. hey, jefferson_dem... here's a walk down memory lane for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3342504&mesg_id=3342504
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3329016&mesg_id=3329016

[jefferson_dem]

20. Cute but irrelevant.

The first post deals with a commonly reported story about how Hillary's camp was strategically "push polling" or "testing negative messages" (depending on your orientation). The second was an editorial about how "progressives" should not support Hillary, which was a very rational presentation if you actually read it.

Of course, neither has anything at all to do with your wild-eyed hit on Obama. Nice effort, though. :bounce:

[wyldwolf]

24. very relevant. Your assertion now is Clinton can be condemned for Mark Penn...

...but Obama is off limits. :bounce:

[Clintonista2]

84. How typically hypocritical of the Obama crowd

Funny, I didn't see any Obamanites attacking the HRC guilt by association smears in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3363462&mesg_id=3363462

The only difference between this thread and the HRC one, is that at least HRC wasn't associating with a convicted felon.

[jobycom]

7. Pshh. Whether I vote for Obama or not, this will not be a shadow of a factor

in my decision.

Just registering my POV.

[TeamJordan23]

10. Is he even on the Obama campaign staff?. Didn't HRC make an Impeached Judge co-chair of her campaign

So the Obama campaign hired Strategic Consulting Group to lead a training session. And Strategic Consulting Group sends Creamer. WOW. Obama must have done this on purpose. :rofl:

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

13. or the Obamanites and their whining about Mark Penn

[William769]

15. What about their just plain whining?

[jefferson_dem]

21. Are you equating this obscure politico who may (or may not have)

hosted a single strategy session with Hillary's chief pollster and windsock operator Penn?

That's simply 'batty'...

[wyldwolf]

26. Mark Penn is not a convicted felon.

[jefferson_dem]

38. yet.

But this guy is -->

Familiar?

[wyldwolf]

40. before you shut down the crystal ball, get those lottery numbers for me...

...I thing they're 4226 (wait, those are national poll numbers - Clinton 42% Obama 26%)

[jefferson_dem]

42. You didn't answer the question.

--->

Who is that fella? Do you know?

[wyldwolf]

45. So? We can trade off candidate affiliations all day. Ready to admit this looks bad for Obama?

[William769]

50. What about Rezko?

[Ethelk2044]

92. He is crooked and a snake in the grass

[rinsd]

14. Over the course of the primaries, we will all have our slimy moments.

But one should be careful when ascending their high horse or commencing stone throwing from their glass house.

We've all been battling for a few months now. No one here is an angel.

[jefferson_dem]

23. I see nobody on a high horse nor do i see any angels.

Still, based on the standard as set by this OP, is it time to roll out the "what some may call shady" Hillary connections? It would not be a pretty (DU) site, eh.

[rinsd]

28. Jeff-dem,

Obama supporters actually posted that Gupta was manipulating CNN's polls for Hillary.

I mean how ridiculous can you get?

The standard for attacks on any candidate have been set fairly low.

[wyldwolf]

31. but... but... THAT'S DIFFERENT... because... it's CLINTON! Yeah...

[zulchzulu]

16. This pathetic attempt at trying to link Obama to someone brought to you by...

...people who think that if they can trash a candidate with bullshit stories on a daily basis, that they can change people's minds.

Get yours today!

Next thing you know, if someone got drunk last week at a birthday party and does work for Obama, the headline will be "Obama Campaign Supports Drunken Dancers".

[wyldwolf]

18. weren't you also in on all those Mark Penn threads? Sorry. The link to Obama has been made

[SOS]

90. "The link to Obama has been made"

Interesting.

The original blog post by Mark Wiznitzer was posted on June 10th.
Are you behind in your reading of obscure Obama blogs?

Or perhaps you found this tidbit today? July 13?

Check the dates:

http://tomroeser.com/blogview.asp?blogID=24055
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/07/obama_hires_felonious_activist.html
http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/

Nice bunch.

Also, please prove that Creamer is on the Obama staff.
It says Creamer works for the Strategic Consulting Group.
Which is it?
Right-wing innuendo won't cut it. Prove it.

[wyldwolf]

99. yes it has

Did I say Creamer was on his staff?

Exactly what has been posted isn't true?

[SOS]

102. You wrote "Obama campaign hires convicted felon"

With zero proof of a payment.
Let alone "campaign hires".

Wiznitzer's blog mentions other guests at the camp including Jackie Kendall of New Media and John Kupperof AKP Media.
Were they "hired" too or were session leaders pro bono?
Do you know?
If they donated a couple of hours of their time, it would be incumbent on you to correct the record.

[wyldwolf]

107. so you think Creamer walked in off the street and just started training those folks?

[bunnies]

17. so fucking what.

He hired a company that employs a felon? Oh the horror! The HORROR I tell you!
Whats the deal? Are you pro-Hillary / anti-everyone else?

[Larkspur]

22. Yes he is

[ProudDad]

51. Welcome to DU

Yep, wolfie is a hard-core Hillary Ubber Alles fanatic...

You'll get to know the other 4 or 5 if you stick around...

but I warn you they get kind of gruesome...

Again, Welcome to DU :hi:

[bunnies]

81. I think Ive recognized a few already. :)

Thanks for the welcome! :hi:

[SaveElmer]

89. Welcome to DU...I am one of the 4 or 5...

That seem to drive the other thousand or so nuts...

[ProudDad]

19. Ah, trust some here at DU

to do the republican's dirty work for them...

[Ethelk2044]

25. Hillary Clinton - Friends with Rezko Lawyer

[wyldwolf]

30. Like you ... (link follows)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3271594&mesg_id=3271594

[Ethelk2044]

32. The difference. He did not Hire the Guy like you tried to say he did

However, Hillary has him on her payroll.


BIG DIFFERENCE.

[wyldwolf]

36. so, you're saying he just walked in off the street and started working?

[ProudDad]

44. Hey, the republicans

didn't force Hillary to hire a union buster...

I'm proud of this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3271594&mesg_id=3271594

I don't trust folks who hire anti-folk folks...

[wyldwolf]

46. they didn't force the Obama campaign to work with a convicted felon.

[ProudDad]

49. Oh, I'm so sure it went down this way

Obama: Hey, guys, go out and find me a felon to train the campaign workers!! I need to shake it up a little...

Flunky: You've got it, Chief!!

Yeah, right... :sarcasm:

You're so transparent... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[wyldwolf]

52. I bet Obama blames his staff... again.

so you're saying Obama isn't on top of things and didn't KNOW Creamer was a felon? You're so transparent... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProudDad]

58. Having knowledge of wolfies crude "debating" techniques

I am now applying the nuclear baiter block....

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


Wolfie can now talk to himself on this subthread...

[wyldwolf]

61. LOL! Dodge, divert, spin...

[Alexander]

97. You sum up your debate tactics quite nicely.

[wyldwolf]

98. sounds more like you.

[LittleClarkie]

94. Eh, that's what the primaries are for, apparently

once someone is nominated, all the other side has to do is check to see what the other candidates said about that person, and run with it.

[zulchzulu]

27. Hillary Clinton has admitted adulterer on stage at speeches

Two can play this game...

[TeamJordan23]

33. lol. that was funny. nt

[BeyondGeography]

35. and a perjurer, too

:hide:

[William769]

56. Same response hare as in Post #54. NT

[William769]

54. And the people still love them!

When you stop using RW talking points you might be able to win. Why do you think Republicans could never beat the Clinton's?

[ProudDad]

60. Hillary Clinton KNOWINGLY has admitted adulterer on stage at speeches

Up the ante...

:rofl:

[wyldwolf]

64. Again, you're implying Obama doesn't know what his campaign is doing.

:rofl:

[zulchzulu]

77. You're admitting that Obama must see omnipotently and giggles at hiring criminals

Swing....and a miss....again...and again...and again...

[wyldwolf]

83. Again, you're implying Obama doesn't know what his campaign is doing.

wing....and a miss....again...and again...and again...

[ProudDad]

85. Self Delete

[wyldwolf]

87. you just seem to pop up in my threads, hurl one liners...

.. then disappear.

[melody]

29. And this means something because ... ? n/t

[mckeown1128]

34. Weak attack....

Stop attacking a good candidate because you don't like what some of his supporters type here on du.

[jefferson_dem]

37. Ah...here are your bedfellows.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/07/obama_hires_felonious_activist.html
http://tomroeser.com/blogview.asp?blogID=24055
http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/

[wyldwolf]

47. so, ready to confirm or deny this yet?

[jefferson_dem]

65. There nothing to confirm or deny.

You posted the sleazy hit. Live with it.

[wyldwolf]

72. so none of this really happened?

[ShortnFiery]

39. Now wyldwolf, I know you're better than this half-baked attempt at smearing another candidate.

In the past you have demonstrated both intelligence and true class.

Show us that past laudable behavior NOW - by SUPPORTING Hillary, NOT by trashing her competition.

This type of trite association type attack is, IMO, well beneath your good reputation and character. :(

I know you can do much better. :shrug:

[wyldwolf]

43. if you knew me well. you'd know something else

When Obama supporters go apeshit over things like Mark Penn and silly stories about the Clinton's manipulating CNN polls, I just bide my time until a story like this breaks.

By the way, did you counsel the Obama supporters in those threads?

[ShortnFiery]

48. No, but for someone who is FULLY in touch with current events, I thought such IMO, smarmy smears

were below you. :(

Oh well, silly me. During primary season, northing's below some. :shrug:

[wyldwolf]

55. Welcome to DU Primary Season 2007-2008

[ShortnFiery]

59. Yes, this reminds me of how much I truly despise politics. n/t

[SaveElmer]

63. Which begs the question...

Why do you spend so much time posting on a board devoted to Politics?

[ShortnFiery]

68. If you would notice, I only post intermittently. My immediate family went out of town last week ...

Therefore, I posted quite a bit then, NOT now.

Now, I'm just basically "checking in" each day.

But cha know SaveElmer, you do seemingly spend OODLES of time here.

I post for fun and education. Why do you post ... especially, unlike me (occasionally post heavy but not routine) ...
What drives YOU SaveElmer?

You must be "in love" with Politics OR HRC ... perhaps both, aye? :-) :hi:

[SaveElmer]

70. Yeah actually...both...

I love politics and I strongly believe in Hillary as a candidate...

And luckily I own my own business so set my own hours...

[ShortnFiery]

71. Too funny! That's why there's no worries of me fading - I do NOT like either very much. n/t

[SaveElmer]

74. Why is that funny?...nt

[ShortnFiery]

76. It's funny because - in my bizarro sense of humor: We're Polar Opposites.

:P :hi:

[ProudDad]

62. "In the past you have demonstrated both intelligence and true class."

Links please.

I'd really like to see any post that indicates that...

The only wolfie I've seen is a contrarian "debater" who will pick out irrelevancies just to keep an ARGUMENT going. I'd truly, really, love to see something different from the boy...

[wyldwolf]

66. and typically you stalk me from thread to thread

[ProudDad]

86. Who's Stalking Whom, wolfie???

You're the one who posted this nonsense...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

nuclear baiter block....

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


Wolfie can now talk to himself on this subthread too...

[wyldwolf]

88. you're stalking me, proudpoop... here's a run down of proudpoop's daily routine

wake up.
search for wyldwolf posts.
Inject silly one liners.
Move on to the next wyldwolf post.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Now I can say things about proudpoop and he won't know.

[Mass]

41. I guess Hillary's supporters are very afraid. Doing the RW dirty job for them.

And a lot to do about nothing, as far as I can see. He was judged and paid his debt to society and is now working for another firm.

http://www.nndb.com/people/307/000040187/

desperation, I guess.

[Colobo]

53. Wow! This is huge! I can't support Obama anymore! Go Hillary!

:sarcasm:

[ShortnFiery]

57. So felons are considered "unclean" forever?!? :( n/t

[HeraldSquare212]

67. Pardon?

Too bad Bill Clinton isn't President - that guy could get a pardon.

[jefferson_dem]

69. How many *felons* (cue "ooga booga" music) did he pardon, again?

:shrug:

How many people associated with Bill and Hill are convicted felons? Hmmmm...shall we investigate?

[SaveElmer]

75. Aren't pardons by definition...

Given to convicted felons...kind of a tautology there isn't it?

[Ethelk2044]

79. NO

[ProudDad]

73. I'm afraid that the concepts of

redemption and forgiveness are foreign to some here at DU.

Not my idea of a "democrat" but I'm afraid there are plenty of people in the Democratic Party to whom the concept of redemption is missing...

A democrat would recognize the human capacity for rehabilitation and change...

-----------------

Even so, this is old, old news. Mr Creamer pled guilty in 2005 for crimes committed in the 90s:

"The husband of an Illinois congresswoman pleaded guilty ... to tax violations and bank fraud for writing rubber checks and failing to collect withholding tax from an employee."

He paid his debt to society and should be allowed to continue his life...

Here's the Horrible Felon that the idiot who started this want us to demonize:

"From the time (when) I was a young man, it was my dream to create a statewide public interest organization that would fight for ordinary people and give them a voice in Springfield and Washington. For over 20 years, from 1975 to 1997, I worked to make that dream a reality. That is why it is particularly painful for me to come here today and acknowledge that my burning desire to create an organization that empowered ordinary people -- led me to make serious errors in judgement in the management of that organization's finance."

<clip>

"As director of Illinois Public Action, I wrote a series of checks on various organization bank accounts knowing that the funds to cover those checks were not yet available in those accounts," he said. "I did so in order to stretch the dollars that the organization had in its possession and to allow it to continue to work as consumer and public interest advocate."

"None of this benefited me personally," Creamer added. "I never intended to cause any bank to lose any money -- and no bank ever did lose any money," Creamer said. But, he added, "My actions clearly caused our banks to provide Illinois Public Action the equivalent of a interest-free loan that they did not intend to provide."



On Edit:

Oh, that's right, he wants us to demonize Obama, guilt by association with an EX-felon.

Mark Penn is still a union-busting piece of SHIT. Big difference, wolfie...

[rinsd]

91. "Mark Penn is still a union-busting piece of SHIT"

Prove it.

Mark Penn is now part of a company that had purchased his firm a couple of years ago.

Part of this larger company is involved in union busting with Cintas.

So you're still dishonest about both the facts and your outrage about guilt by association.

[ProudDad]

103. Just a quick google and the real Mark Penn shows itself...

"Penn is "not distancing himself from the money the "labor relations" wing brings in and the other controversial clients B-M represents in the defense, pharmaceutical and energy industries and the Republican lobbyists he oversees." Berman views Penn's "recusal" pledge is "a phony gesture that fails to address the underlying problems or the reasons prominent labor leaders are upset with Clinton's campaign."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mark_Penn

"If Clinton really wanted to curtail the influence of the powerful, she might start with the advisers to her own campaign, who represent some of the weightiest interests in corporate America. Her chief strategist, Mark Penn, not only polls for America's biggest companies but also runs one of the world's premier PR agencies. A bevy of current and former Hillary advisers, including her communications guru, Howard Wolfson, are linked to a prominent lobbying and PR firm--the Glover Park Group--that has cozied up to the pharmaceutical industry and Rupert Murdoch. Her fundraiser in chief, Terry McAuliffe, has the priciest Rolodex in Washington, luring high-rolling contributors to Clinton's campaign. Her husband, since leaving the presidency, has made millions giving speeches and counsel to investment banks like Goldman Sachs and Citigroup. They house, in addition to other Wall Street firms, the Clintons' closest economic advisers, such as Bob Rubin and Roger Altman, whose DC brain trust, the Hamilton Project, is Clinton's economic team in waiting. Even the liberal in her camp, former deputy chief of staff Harold Ickes, has lobbied for the telecom and healthcare industries, including a for-profit nursing home association indicted in Texas for improperly funneling money to disgraced former House majority leader Tom DeLay. "She's got a deeper bench of big money and corporate supporters than her competitors," says Eli Attie, a former speechwriter to Vice President Al Gore. Not only is Hillary more reliant on large donations and corporate money than her Democratic rivals, but advisers in her inner circle are closely affiliated with unionbusters, GOP operatives, conservative media and other Democratic Party antagonists."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/berman

"Lots of people are understandably curious to know what sort of messages Hillary pollster Mark Penn is testing on behalf of her boss right now.
<clip>

"Penn's pollsters have been testing various negative messages on both Barack Obama and John Edwards. The messages tested on Obama were that he's inexperienced and that he's voted to fund the war at certain junctures.

"A bit more surprising: Penn's firm polled on Edwards' $400 haircut, a line of inquiry that would seem more likely to come from a GOPer than from a fellow Dem's campaign. Penn has already created controversy for Hillary with his anti-union corporate clientele."

http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jun/26/poll


Ah, push-polls -- WAY TO GO, MARK!!!


"It was fairly simple, Mark J. Penn said calmly to Vice President Al Gore, reporting the findings of an exhaustive survey he had conducted in the early stages of the 2000 presidential campaign. Voters liked Gore's policies. They just didn't like Gore.

"Gore laughed, according to people who attended the meeting. He had heard that before. But the vice president, worried about the effect President Bill Clinton's scandals might have on his campaign, had another question for his pollster: Was there any evidence of this "Clinton fatigue" that people kept talking about?

"I'm not tired of him," Penn replied. "Are you?"

"It was a flippant response -- and the final straw for Gore, who had long been wary of Penn and concerned that his real loyalty was to Clinton and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton. His senior advisers agreed, regarding Penn as arrogant and controlling, someone who pushed the boundaries of his job by dispensing strategic advice rather than simply interpreting data. Shortly after the meeting with Gore, Penn was fired. One of the party's most prominent pollsters sat out the presidential campaign, but he signed up that year with a familiar face making her inaugural run for office in Penn's native New York -- Hillary Clinton."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901661.html

"Mark Penn, CEO of the global PR firm Burson-Marsteller (B-M) and president of the polling firm Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates (PSB), feels misunderstood.

"Penn was recently in the news when several union officials expressed concern that Democratic Presidential aspirant Hillary Clinton had hired him as a "key strategic adviser," even though B-M has a specialist unit that advises clients on defeating union campaigns. Not surprisingly, Clinton's campaign shrugged off the criticism, insisting that he is a "vital member of our team." In an email to Atlantic Online, Penn wrote that that he had "never personally done such work" and insisted that he has "strong personal sympathies with the labor movement." (Why someone who proclaims their pro-labor sympathies would even head up a PR firm that runs an anti-labor unit went unexplained.) Even if one accepts Penn's explanation at face value, it left me wondering who he had worked for.

"A little digging reveals that, for well over two decades, both Penn and his opinion polling company have advised the tobacco industry on how to counter the campaigns of the tobacco control movement. Based on internal tobacco industry documents, it is clear that Penn and his colleagues have little personal sympathy for those promoting policies that put public health ahead of the interests of the tobacco industry."

http://www.prwatch.org/node/6213


I guess someone employed by the big corporations like Hil would need an amoral bastard like this one to help guide her campaign.

I can't wait to see what he'll do from the basement of the White House -- the new Karl Rove mayhaps...

[rinsd]

109. IOW, not responsible for union busting

Proud Dad's tenuous relationship with the truth exposed once again.

[Sanctified]

78. Maybe the guy is the most qualified.

I am most likely not going to vote Obama in the primaries but this is really not a big deal, the guy did a little tax evasion and served his time. It's not like Obama hired a convicted child molester to run a daycare for the children of his campaign workers.

[ProudDad]

82. BINGO!!!

But logic and reasoning doesn't work too well with someone with an ax to grind...

[Bonobo]

80. Clearly Obama is a criminal and a threat to America. You convinced me!

[Jed Dilligan]

93. Not being a huge Clinton or Obama fan,

I nevertheless doubt that either of them would be pleased to see their supporters acting like chimps flinging dung at each other.

[Forkboy]

100. Only damn sensible thing said in this entire thread.

:thumbsup:

[Fly by night]

95. I'm a convicted felon (BOP # 16502-075). Feel free to make something of it.

But before you do, please read this link which describes the facts in my case. http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Cover_Story/2007/04/26/Marijuana_Martyr/index.shtml

Then feel free to cast another stone.

[ProudDad]

105. Life in the Police State...

I sincerely hope everything works out for you!

Fellow DU'ers -- Check out this link. Your police state in action!!!! :grr: :grr: :grr:

http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Cover_Story/2007/04/26/Marijuana_Martyr/index.shtml

[Forkboy]

101. ..

[illinoisprogressive]

104. Obama has publicly stated he believes in 2nd chances.

Why should he not practice what he preaches. Of course, some people think after people pay their dues to society they should just be thrown away and not allowed to regain their respect.

[ProudDad]

106. Some bloodthirsty individuals seem to believe

that NO ONE should get a 2nd chance.

There are quite a few of those "lock 'em up and throw away the key" types here on DU.

Very demoralizing...

[TankLV]

108. This should be fun to watch!

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: