For those of you who thinks Biden "knows his stuff" when it comes to foreign policy, think again.

[calteacherguy]

His idea of partioning in Iraq into three nations is a naive gimmick.

It's a great recipe to get Iraqis to blame America for taking away their homes and destroying their country for generations to come. It's probable outcome would be bloodbath and genocide given the great number of mixed neighborhoods, cities, and regions. The struggle in Iraq is not over territory; it's over power and resources. You can't solve that by partitioning.

Joe Biden has become nothing more than an egotistical, wrong-headed buffoon pretending as if he has some sort of revolutionary idea that will work. He doesn't

[babylonsister]

1. OK, Biden sucks. Who do you like? nt

[rodeodance]

2. two ME scholars on Lehrer tonight said that It is breaking to 3-4 sections already while

Bush pushes for 'unity gov'

[calteacherguy]

3. And the idea of America encouraging the genocide by partitioning is crazy. nt

[napi21]

4. I like Joe, and although you disagree with his ideas,

AT LEAST HE HAS SOME!!!!!!

Gripe and growl about why you think his idea of partioning won't work, what do you have to say about any other candidates ideas? Do they even HAVR ANY? O hear lots of people saying pull out the troops, but that's not a plan! How do you physically do that? Last I heard, the it was a hugh risk just getting to the damn Bagdad airport. After 4+ years, there's TONS of equipment, 150,000+ troops, and who knows how many mercinary troops and civilian workers there. Just "pulling the troops out" is not that simple when people are still shooting at you!

[calteacherguy]

6. Glad you asked.

Please listen to the House Armed Services Committee testimony of General Wesley Clark and others from yesterday...

Quite educational.

http://hascaudio.house.gov/OI071207.wma

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. There is no historical basis for Iraq to exist,

Some foreign dudes with a ruler created Iraq, a nation with no strong national identity and basically zero national sense of loyalty.
No matter what the end game in Iraq is, there is going to be civil war and there is going to be genocide on a massive scale as the goal is going to be the extermination of the Sunni's. That is a given but more blood would be spilt trying to keep Iraq whole against the cultural and religious inertia of the region.

There is no good end to the war in Iraq, there are however some ends that will kill fewer Americans. Preserving the political geography of Iraq isn't worth a single life, American or Iraqi.

[calteacherguy]

7. So should we, as Biden suggests, take up the "ruler that created Iraq" ourselves?

Generations of Iraqis will blame us for it. Generations.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

8. that is the LEAST of things the ex-Iraqi's will blame America for,

We destroyed their entire civil society and turned the country over to a kabal of Iranian terrorists, I don't think a Sunni in Sunnistan or Saddamistan will be too worried about having to re-order their return address labels compared to that.

[calteacherguy]

9. "re-order their return address labels"

You are speaking of taking away people's homes by force...think of the West Bank magnified a thousand times. The problems in Iraq are not territorial, they are about power and influence.

[babylonsister]

10. Where are you coming from and what aren't you/we accepting?

I thought Iraq was about different religions or sects thereof, vieing for the best they can get given they and their families have been there a long time, kind of sort of like Israel/Palestine.
It's a civil war going on that I don't understand, but we are not making it better.
If Biden is proved right, and I don't discount that at all, good for him.

[calteacherguy]

11. Biden is suggesting that America take the lead in partitioning Iraq.

It's a terrible idea. He's basically advocating feeding a potential genocide.

[babylonsister]

12. OK, let me know when you find an Iraqi who wants to set political precedent,

because I agree. If only there was someone who stands out, but as far as I know, it's not happening.
The future of Iraq will be interesting, and all I wish is that it's better than it's been, and I don't see that happening. :cry:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. Iraqi's do not identify themselves with Iraq

The problems in Iraq are very much territorial, its all about the oil - but the type of social integration that took place in secular Ba'athist Iraq isn't really possible in a country where sectarian death squads rule the streets.

There is no "positive" end to what we have unleashed in Iraq, look at Yugoslavia - only these fuckers are much better armed.

Under a secular dictatorship the ethnic tensions were not really an issue, under sectarian rule by local death squads the dynamic changes entirely. There is no return to a secular order in Iraq - the frat rats of the CPA made sure of that when they destroyed Ba'athism - the only secular political culture in the Arab world. Now we are left with rule by whatever local lunatic has the most guns and the loudest loudspeaker for calling to prayers.

[babylonsister]

14. You are so full of bull.

There are millions of displaced Iraqis who love their country. That might also include their sect or religion, but they love their country, and look what we've done.
As an American, I am ashamed.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. Iraqi's identify themselves along ethnic and or tribal lines

That is a statement of fact, and a large reason why things such as raising a national army or creating and credible central government is so difficult. The Iraqi people in large don't identify with either.

If you don't like that fact, I guess you can make up your own.

[babylonsister]

16. Their government or lack thereof is not what I was inferring. Their

"COUNTRY" has been and is in Iraq. I don't agree with the 'spreading democracy' meme and never did.

[calteacherguy]

17. At most, perhaps 10% of the poplulation causing the grief for the other 90%

That's why what is going on can't really be defined as a "civil war" in the classical sense of the term...such as in the U.S. where the majority of the population felt what they were fighting for was worth fighting for and large armies were advancing back and forth.

There is a kind of "civil war" going on, but it's limited to the small percentage of Iraqi's who want the fighting to continue in order to achieve their partisan goals. The other 90% or so want peace now.

[babylonsister]

18. Not a civil war? Please prove that. nt

[calteacherguy]

19. I think we are in agreement, please read my edited post. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

20. It's not revolutionary and it's not his, but...

it's just another bad idea put out some time ago.

Problem is, there are no good ideas so this bad idea isn't any worse than a bunch of other bad ideas. Division might mean the oil goes to one group, the Kurds cause more trouble in Turkey now that they have their own country, and the Shiites get closer to Iran.

But, the Kurdish problem might resolve itself with a real Kurdistan, the Persians in Iran don't want too much to do with the Arabs in Iraq, and an equitable sharing of oil revenues could be possible.

So, is this any worse than any other scenarios out there?

[saltpoint]

21. Biden's plan, first of all, IS a plan. Bush has none.

Biden is an acknowledged expert on foreign policy. You're mistaken to suggest otherwise.

What's your solution to the fall-out in Iraq absent Biden's proposal?

The Kurds like it just fine.

The maelstrom in Baghdad requires some sort of prescribed order. I like Biden's better than anyone else's.

[Byronic]

22. Ok. I've thought again

And I still think the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee knows a thing or two about foreign policy.

Sorry about that.

[saltpoint]

23. Strongly agree.

Experts matter.

Joe Biden is an expert on foreign policy.

[SaveElmer]

24. I personally think Biden's plan is well worth a serious look...

Iraq is an artificial construct that is breaking apart by violent means...Biden is simply advocating allowing that process to move forward in a more orderly and hopefully peaceful manner...

I have always been a fan of Biden's and although I don't think he will get the nomination..he is making a very good case for himself as Secretary of State...