EDITORIAL: Obama gets it right on teacher pay

[jefferson_dem]

Obama gets it right on teacher pay

Competition needed, says the presidential candidate.

Hooray for Obama.

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama did something this week that probably isn't in the party playbook.

He stood before the National Education Association and told them he was in favor of merit pay for teachers.

"I think there should be ways for us to work with the NEA, with teachers' unions, to figure out a way to measure success," Obama said, according to printed reports. "I want to work with teachers. I'm not going to do it too you, I'm going to do it with you."

Indeed, like us, Obama realizes that performance-based pay for teachers can be seen as a positive, a joint effort between taxpayers and teachers to improve their pay and bring more accountability to public schools.

<SNIP>

But suggesting performance based pay is not akin to requiring teachers to be held to a higher standard purely on the basis of one state test. No, we agree with the NEA in suggesting that student performance, for instance, be judged not by a snapshot of students in one grade, but a series of evaluations that judge whether a student is learning as he or she advances from grade to grade. State tests are an important element of this process, but merely one part of a larger attempt to determine if schools are performing.

<SNIP>

We also agree with school board member Jean Twitty who suggested during her recent campaign that principals ought to be the first in line for performance based pay. Indeed, for those teachers who are afraid that merit pay leads to competition instead of cooperation, we say, why can't we have both? One of the successful elements of merit pay that has been instituted in school districts across the country has been the concept of rewarding groups of teachers, either in a subject area or specific school, for working together to raise performance.

The bottom line, as Obama told national NEA delegates, is that if the U.S. is to improve its public education system, it must introduce more competition to the process. We believe that if teachers and school districts work on a local level to embrace performance based pay and the accountability that comes with it, those critics who push for vouchers and other damaging anti-public-school programs will lose all momentum.

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070714/OPINIONS01/707140321/1006/OPINIONS

[dsc]

1. This isn't merit pay

For instance, we agree with Springfield Public Schools Superintendent Norm Ridder who believes that teachers who agree to commit to working at certain Title 1 schools, where levels of poverty are higher and the population tends to be transient, should receive their own special stipend — a form of merit pay — because of the difficulties of taking children who are less prepared to learn and improving their achievement. Ridder hopes to implement such a plan in Springfield, and we believe it's the logical first step toward talking about a real performance-based-pay system.

I happen to think the above is a good idea. It is harder to work in a school like that and thus should be better compensated. But that isn't merit pay. In point of fact, merit pay would lead to the opposite happening. NC has a small system of merit pay. Teachers in schools which show some improvement get $750 and those in schools showing a great deal of improvement get $1500. Title 1 schools never make the grade. That causes many teachers near retirement to leave those Title 1 schools since they get a lifetime penalty for staying.

[ulysses]

70. Atlanta does something like that.

If your school makes its targets, the faculty gets to be "down on the floor" at the super's big Georgia Dome hoedown the next fall, and each teacher gets a bonus check. The teachers from the "have not" schools sit up in the nosebleed sections and don't get the money. It's an incentive, all right. A *reverse* incentive, but an incentive.

[sandnsea]

71. I think it was a political strategy

Take the talking point away from the right and use it to promote good policy. Clinton used to do it all the time.

[LostinVA]

2. There is absolutely no way that can work

The only way to objectively measure success would be test scores. Teachers from privileged areas and teachers of honors/AP classes will have higher test scores than those in underprivileged areas or those in remedial classes.

Plus, there are not standardized tests for every subject that is taught. Thank Jeebus.

[rucky]

8. Unless it's based on improvement. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

62. How about measuring teachers from priviledged areas on a different scale...

Than those who are teaching remedial classes. It's not that hard to do.

[JerseygirlCT]

135. Subjective measures of success are used routinely in most of the

professional world.

Why is this different?

Your superiors, and sometimes, your colleagues, all have a good idea of how you perform your work.

While objective measures are good, as you say, tests are insufficient for the entire measure.

The alternative is that crappy but stubborn teachers continue to be rewarded simply for time served, while dedicated and energetic new teachers see how the game works, and give up for a more lucrative field.

I would like to see the good teachers rewarded, and the bad teachers given all the incentive they need to find another line of work.

This doesn't begin or end with standardized tests.

[wyldwolf]

3. this always has been an excellent idea... see?

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=1370&kaid=110&subid=135
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=393&kaid=131&subid=207
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=500&kaid=110&subid=135
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=1056&kaid=110&subid=135
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252716&kaid=85&subid=65

[jefferson_dem]

5. If true, then your candidate should have no problem jumping on Obama's bandwagon...

once again.

[wyldwolf]

7. If true? some of those links are over five years old....

Since so much is made here about Hillary and DLC, looks like Obama is doing the bandwagon jumpin'.

Just another example of how Obama is DLC without the membership card.

By the way, Hillary came out in favor of "pay for performance" for teachers years ago.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=NewsLibrary&p_multi=DSNB&d_place=DSNB&p_theme=newslibrary2&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0F369CA9445DD7EC&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

[jefferson_dem]

9. I see the links and knew the DLC has promoted "merit pay" for some time now.

My question is whether what he's proposing is the same old DLC formula. Hence...the "if true" qualifier.

[wyldwolf]

11. what is the "same old DLC formula?"

Since Obama is your candidate, you should know the answer to that question. Do a comparison for us.

[jefferson_dem]

13. LOL! The DLC is your game so i expected you would have known their formula.

I'm not as familiar and i sure won't do your research.

[wyldwolf]

16. Obama - a non-card carrying member of the DLC

[Ethelk2044]

23. Obama does not agree with the DLC However, Hillary does

[wyldwolf]

26. denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

[snowbear]

96. Wyldwolf you are obsessed with this DLC thing ..which HRC is one of the main leaders of...

~~~And your candidate is not only a member, but is one of the pillars of the DLC Community! - http://www.dlc.org/



Personally, I could care less who is affiliated with them or not.

But for some strange reason you are on a mission to attempt to link Senator Obama--- who has NEVER been a member of the DLC in his life--to the DLC.

Do you think that the more you post threads that "Obama = DLC" (in your mind), that DU'ers are eventually going to start believing it?



Everytime I see your threads desperately trying to paint Obama to the DLC.. I think about that Seinfeld episode where George doesn't want to go out with a blind date with a woman he finds out is bald.

Seinfeld Episodes 1990

Cosmo Kramer: Hey
George Costanza: You fixed me up with a bald woman!
Cosmo Kramer: (flinches)
Cosmo Kramer: Bald?
George Costanza: Yeah, that's right
Elaine: Do you see the irony here? You're rejecting somebody because they're bald!
George Costanza: So?
Elaine: You're bald!!!!!!!!

Why do you keep attempting to make Senator Obama the face of the DLC....

....when YOUR very own candidate IS the face of the DLC?

It makes NO sense.

[wyldwolf]

100. the only people "obsessed with this DLC thing" are "progressives."

Tell me the key differences in Obama's philosophy and that of the DLC's. Comparitive links, please.

If it quacks like a duck...

pssst! I'm HAPPY my candidate is the face of the DLC. Isn't it wonderful she leads in every poll?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

54. Obama is more DLC than even HRC

:rofl:

On the two issues they disagree Obama lurches to the right of the DLC's poster child...

[draft_mario_cuomo]

53. "Opportunity and responsibility"

I have said what he is proposing is straight from the DLC playbook of triangulation. Now we know it literally is directly from the DLC playbook. :rofl:

[draft_mario_cuomo]

52. It may be the Jeb Bush formula, not the DLC formula

You do realize this is a conservative Republican championed idea (it is no coincidence that among Democrats only the DLC and Obama support it)... ;)

[Hippo_Tron]

64. Obama has no formula for measuring teacher pay yet

He is going to work one out with the NEA as he stated in his speech. However his idea about giving incentives to teach in underprivileged schools is definitely spot on.

[MannyGoldstein]

110. Big Difference

"I'm not going to do it too you, I'm going to do it with you." - Barack Obama

And he probably means it.

The DLC is not known for doing things with people. For example, I don't think anyone checked with the Middle Class to see if they wanted fewer jobs and lower salaries before they voted for instituting permanent 'free' trade with China.

[Ethelk2044]

4. I am glad to see the NEA is agreeing with him.

We need to new and fresh decisions in dealing with education

[femmocrat]

6. Since when does NEA support merit pay?

I found this on the NEA website:

"Merit Pay: Public Agenda found that most teachers oppose merit pay - based on favoritism and test scores - but many support other non-traditional compensation plans, including extra pay for extra work, incentives to work in schools in need of improvement, and incentives for National Board certification. None of those alternatives are merit pay, and NEA and its affiliates have supported those proposals."

Tying teachers' pay to student scores on standardized tests is not the way to improve schools. I like Obama, but his position on merit pay sounds like something from the republican party's platform.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

51. BO supporters have been trying to claim the NEA supports merit pay ever since BO came out for it

They never have and never will support it. BO fans are either being deliberately misleading or naive when they claim otherwise.

[JANdad]

86. I commented on this a while ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3360909#3361049

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama told the largest teachers union Thursday that performance-based merit pay ought to be considered in public schools.

Teachers at the National Education Association's annual convention have expressed concerns about merit pay, which is gaining favor with lawmakers, including those currently rewriting the No Child Left Behind law.

Teachers say they worry that linking their pay to their students' test scores would be unfair to teachers who have students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Teachers also say it isn't fair to offer merit pay only to people who teach courses that are tested, like reading and math, but not to those who teach subjects like music or art.

[last_texas_dem]

61. The NEA applauded his appearance at their convention

They did not change their stance on the issue of merit pay, which they have long been opponents of.

[ToeBot]

10. Like I need another reason not to vote for him, maybe he will come out in favor of vouchers!

Next.

[Ethelk2044]

12. NO but your candidate will

[wyldwolf]

14. he doesn't support vouchers, but he does support charter schools, just like... say it with me...

The DLC!

Obama made it clear he's dead-set against any voucher system but described himself as a big-time proponent of charter schools, so much so that he has raised the ire of Democratic-dominated teachers' unions.

http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070617/NEWS01/706170323
http://www.wacharterschools.org/news/natlnews/2004-10-07_ObamaPro.htm

[Ethelk2044]

17. Yes, We all know Hillary is part of the DLC

[wyldwolf]

18. and, based on his positions, Obama should be, too. He borrows from them enough

[Ethelk2044]

19. Obama does not borrow from them. He makes his own decisions

However can you candidate say the same. Oh no I forgot, she panders to which way the wind blows at any given time.

[wyldwolf]

21. riiiiight.

Merit pay:

DLC: Yes
Obama: Yes

Charter schools

DLC: Yes
Obama: Yes

Welfare Reform

DLC: Yes
Obama: Yes

Rejection of special interest, or single issue, politics based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or victimhood.

DLC: Yes
Obama: Yes

believes the global war on terror is real, not a "bumpersticker slogan."

DLC: Yes
Obama: Yes

Expresses admiration of DLC's third-way (Pg. 34, "The Audacity of Hope.")


Want more...?

[jefferson_dem]

24. DLC = supporter/promoter of NCLB ; OBAMA = Harsh critic of NCLB

On the general topic of education ---

DLC | Blueprint Magazine | March 25, 2002
How Bush Stole Education
By Andrew J. Rotherham

When President Bush signed the No Child Left Behind Act -- the breakthrough education bill of 2001 -- he secured a significant domestic policy achievement for his administration. The legislation was not only noteworthy for its policy changes; it was also an important political victory. This remarkable Republican turnaround on education helped boost the president's enviable approval ratings. As Congress prepares during the rest of his term to overhaul federal policy on special education, education research, and higher education, the president has the wind at his back.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=110&subid=900023&contentid=250319

***

July 5, 2007
Obama slams Bush’s ‘No Child Left Behind’
Obama spoke at the National Education Association in Philadelphia on Thursday.

WASHINGTON (CNN) — Illinois Sen. Barack Obama slammed President Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” policy in a speech to the National Education Association in Philadelphia on Thursday, calling it “one of the emptiest slogans in the history of politics.”

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/07/05/obama-slams-bushs-no-child-left-behind/

[wyldwolf]

28. so that's your make of break issue now, huh? Even Ted Kennedy supported it

...and Clinton no longer supports it.

But as long as Obama disagrees with the DLC on NCLB, all is well in Obama-land.

Psst - every DLC member doesn't agree with every utterance on the DLC's website.

[jefferson_dem]

30. That's not make or break.

It's just one instance of where he differs from DLC dogma, which speaks to the point of your post - that he actually a stealth DLCer.

Of course, we are not surprised that Hillary is now opposed to NCLB. Just another episode of *As the Windsock Turns*.... I guess this it's also another example of how she has found Truth after being hoodwinked by Chimpy. She has developed such a sorry legacy of poor judgment.

[wyldwolf]

31. we've just seen how Obama initially favored it...

... so your swipe at Clinton is hypocritical.

But more importantly, you're setting a precedent here: As long as a candidate doesn't agree with "DLC dogma" 100%, he or she is ok, right?

[jefferson_dem]

37. I think you have me confused with some of the DLC-bashers around here.

I'm not too much into the tribalist infighting among Democratic factions.

I accept your general point on Obama's initial support for some of the goals of the NCLB. He's been very public about his commitment to "high standards and accountability" in education.

[wyldwolf]

38. no, not at all. But you're very quick to deny his third-way new dem leanings

[jefferson_dem]

40. In fact, his positive vision

of 'unity' (sorry, the word fits) and desire to bridge social-political divides are what most attract me to him as a candidate. His vision has been clear since the 2004 Convention speech. If we want to call it "third way"...then so be it.

[wyldwolf]

41. "unity" has been the underlying theme of the third-way since it's inception

[ulysses]

73. it has?

Unity between what parties?

[wyldwolf]

85. yes, it has. And if you don't know that...

..then, as I always suspected, you get your "facts" about the DLC from others who are against the DLC.

Obama's message is exactly the same message that first prompted Jesse Jackson to fire the first shot which started the whole DLC vs. "progressives" skirmish. Though, like many on the left, I suspect Jackson didn't really expect the DLC to fire back.

[ulysses]

97. then like I say, unity among what parties?

The characterization of the DLC as a bunch of folks just tryin' to unify a troubled party before Jesse came along and turned it into a skirmish is hilarious, btw. :D

[wyldwolf]

99. all

and only hilarious to "progressives" who don't know the history. :)

[ulysses]

101. how is it that they've gone about that?

This should be good. :)

[wyldwolf]

102. At the DLC's inception

The immediate goal was the rejection of special interests, or single issue, politics based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or victimhood. It was called "the common good."

This is what infuriated Jackson and and prompted his attacks on the DLC in late 80s.

Lo and behold! This is EXACTLY what Obama pushes in his book "Audacity of Hope." Pg. 11.

I know, "progressives" don't typically go that far back in their study of Dem history.

[ulysses]

106. so how did the rejection of things like affirmative action

and labor standards further the ideal of unity?

Btw, I'm not disagreeing with you over Obama's stance.

[wyldwolf]

107. odd question

Affirmative action is a policy. The politics rejected are those based soley on race, gender, sexual orientation, or victimhood. Obama nor the DLC have come out against affirmative action of labor standards.

[ulysses]

108. not really.

You said:

The immediate goal was the rejection of special interests, or single issue, politics based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or victimhood.

If you didn't mean something like affirmative action, then perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "special interests".

Obama nor the DLC have come out against affirmative action of labor standards.

Then one gets to this part and realizes that we've jumped right to the part of the conversation where you have nothing to add and are, thus, going to be silly. :silly:

[wyldwolf]

109. most definitely

Affirmative action is a policy. It does not place it's recipient's needs above those of everyone else. But politics of special interests do.

Then one gets to this part and realizes that we've jumped right to the part of the conversation where you have nothing to add and are, thus, going to be silly.

Then, as usual with you, one gets to this part and realizes you are merely parroting what other "progressives" spout and have no evidence to support your claim.

Should I remind you what your claim was again before you "alter" it?

[ulysses]

111. ok, so give us an example

of the kind of special interest politics that the DLC has rejected.

[wyldwolf]

113. again, you're trying to misrepresent it all

The DLC has not rejected special interests. They're rejected special interest agendas that put individual groups before the common good of the country. Like Truman did. Like JFK did. Like Clinton did.

Threads with you are like twisting train tracks. You try to wring the answers you're expecting (the ones "progressives" have taught you to expect) out of people and you ask question after question trying to lead the conversation to that point.

If you're so sure the DLC (and Obama) are rejecting policies that assist minorities (as opposed to rejecting politics that pander to such), then show us the examples of it.

[ulysses]

115. from your post 102

The immediate goal was the rejection of special interests, or single issue, politics based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or victimhood. It was called "the common good."

I suppose now you'd like to differentiate between special interests and agendas. Fine. Can you give us an example of such an agenda rejected by the DLC?

[wyldwolf]

117. uh, so? How many times do I have to point out the difference?

I would never allow you not to eat, Ulysses. I might even make it easier for you to eat, but I also wouldn't pander to you with promises of special food and a golden plate just to get you at my table.

[ulysses]

118. um, ok.

Thanks for not allowing me to not eat (huh?), but anyway - can I get an example of the kind of special interest agenda the DLC has jettisoned? TIA.

[wyldwolf]

119. My answer will not change no matter how many times or how many ways you ask it.

The DLC has never had a special interest agenda so DLC has NOT jettisoned a special interest agenda. It just doesn't put that agenda BEFORE the common good of the country. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.

My answer will not change no matter how many times or how many ways you ask it.

[ulysses]

120. sorry, not "jettisoned". should have said "rejected".

The DLC has never had a special interest agenda

Pfft. Right.

My answer will not change no matter how many times or how many ways you ask it.

I guess you can't change something you haven't offered to begin with.

[wyldwolf]

121. again, the DLC (and Obama) rejects any agenda that doesn't put the common good first

The DLC has never had a special interest agenda

Pfft. Right.

Name one and give examples. Should I wait or check back later?

My answer will not change no matter how many times or how many ways you ask it.

I guess you can't change something you haven't offered to begin with.

Just as a said before, (and seem to say to you a lot), just because you didn't get the expected answer doesn't mean one was not given. Sorry to disrupt your pattern.

[ulysses]

122. why is it so hard for you to be specific?

If the DLC rejects a certain approach, there must be at least one specific example of that approach.

Name one and give examples.

Business interests. NAFTA.

Should I wait or check back later for your specifics on special interest agendas?

[wyldwolf]

123. there is nothing to be specific about. Why is it so hard for you to provide evidence?

What about business interests and NAFTA?

Ask the DNC about their Democratic Business Council, currently thriving under Howard Dean.

NAFTA is a trade agreement.

Again, equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.

Demonstrate for me how the DLC has pandered to either for votes or legislation keeping in mind that the DLC can deliver neither.

Should I wait or check back later?

[ulysses]

124. sure there is.

You just don't want to provide specifics, it seems. Why is that?

What about business interests and NAFTA?

You asked me to provide an instance of a special interest that the DLC supports.

Demonstrate for me how the DLC has pandered to either for votes or legislation keeping in mind that the DLC can deliver neither.

No thanks, since you can't be bothered to offer, after repeated requests, an example of the kind of special interest agendas that the DLC rejects.

[wyldwolf]

125. you're trying to avoid providing evidence by rewording your questions

No thanks, since you can't be bothered to offer, after repeated requests, an example of the kind of special interest agendas that the DLC rejects.

Sorry. You don't respond for repeated requests for evidence with a demand of your own. :(

[ulysses]

126. ?

Sorry. You don't respond for repeated requests for evidence with a demand of your own.

Funny - you just did.

[wyldwolf]

127. ?

No, I asked for evidence first.

[ulysses]

128. right.

:eyes: The thread speaks for itself.

As fun as it always is watching you shuck and jive, I have to go get Chris ready to visit some friends. I'll check back later if you decide to come up with the specifics for which I've asked.

[ulysses]

129. here you go.

First request for specifics from either of us in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3376557&mesg_id=3378858

[wyldwolf]

131. A prime example of you not liking or expecting the answer you got.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3376557&mesg_id=3378887

[wyldwolf]

130. Right. The thread does speak for itself. Not liking my answers isn't the same as me not answering

You, on the other hand, try to answer question with more questions. Might work in your classroom, but in political discussions it show how one dimensional your thinking is.

I simply won't answer your questions any differently no matter how many times your ask them or reword them. But I'll check back later to see if you ever provide evidence of your charge.

[ulysses]

132. pity you can't answer a simple question.

Pretty much right out of the DLC playbook, though.

Ah well. Check with you tonight.

[wyldwolf]

133. pity no one ever told you you wouldn't like every answer you got

Pretty much right out of the "prooogreesssiivve" playbook, though.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

56. "Unity" is a brilliant way to sell a stealth Third Way

Even Bill Clinton could not come up with such an appealing Trojan horse for the Third Way/DLCism.

[jefferson_dem]

79. Stealth third *whatever*. None of those labels matter much to me.

You do seem fixated on them, however...which is fine.

Sounds like you would never ever support an actual DLCer...

or would you?

[Karmadillo]

32. Wouldn't that make Obama a turning "windsock", too?

He's gone from being initially encouraged by the passage of NCLB to becoming a critic of NCLB. Clinton seems to have followed the same path.

http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/education/

<edit>

When the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLBA) was enacted, I viewed it as a historic promise between the federal government and educators – schools would be held to higher standards than ever before and the government would make a record investment in those schools to ensure that they would be able to meet the new expectations confronting them. Today, that promise has been broken. President Bush’s budget for 2006 provides $12 billion less than was promised by the No Child Left Behind Act, including $947.5 million less for New York. more»

<edit>

[jefferson_dem]

36. Perhaps "some" could view it in that light.

Of course, there's much to embrace in the mission of NCLB...in theory.

The question is how Obama would have worked to help ensure proper implementation of the policy during the original debate, and immediate follow-up. Would "his word" alone have been enough?

[wyldwolf]

39. honest people would.

[Karmadillo]

29. Actually, Obama was "initially encouraged" by the passage of NCLB.

It simply needed better implementation (more funding) and better assessment tests. The quote below comes from a 2005 speech.

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/051025-teaching_our_ki/

<edit>

Like most ideological debates, this one assumes that there's an "either-or" answer to our education problems. Either we need to pour more money into the system, or we need to reform it with more tests and standards.

But we don't make much progress for our kids when we constrain ourselves like this. It appeared for a brief moment that the President, working with leaders like Senator Kennedy understood this, and many of us were initially encouraged by the passage of No Child Left Behind. It may not be popular to say in Democratic circles, but there were good elements to this bill - its emphasis on the achievement gap, raising standards, and accountability. Unfortunately, because of failures in implementation, particularly its failure to provide adequate funding and a failure to design better assessment tests that provide a clearer path for schools to raise achievement, the bill's promise is not yet fulfilled.

The shortcomings of NCLB shouldn't end the conversation, however. They should be the start of a conversation about how we can do better. Yes, it's a moral outrage that this Administration hasn't come through with the funding for what it claims has been its number one domestic priority. But to wage war against the entire law for that reason is not an education policy, and Democrats need to realize that.

more...

[draft_mario_cuomo]

55. WW strikes again...BO is a DLCer without the membership card

There is nothing inherently wrong with it but his fans can't criticize HRC for being a DLCer and then excuse Obama's Third Way Democrat platform. Obama is actually more conservative than HRC. :rofl:

[jefferson_dem]

15. Like you would have considered him anyway.

This is not anywhere close to school choice or vouchers.

[glowing]

20. Teaching is the only profession where everyone else questions the

professional. Teachers are taught at college how to teach, however, every teacher entering their first year with high ambitions and clear goals, soon realize that most of what they were taught needs to be tweeked or just plain thrown out.

My sister almost quit her first year. She taught at one of the schools that needed to improve. Half the year she spent shoving test taking material the school made her present to the class. She had a 10yr old threaten to come to school with a knife and stab her until she was dead. The principal didn't do a damn thing, "just make sure those test scores are good". She complained that she was boring the kids to death, but was so afraid of the principal's review of her first year as a teacher, she felt she had no choice but abide by it. She left that school, and never looked back.

It seems like our society is just falling apart. When I went to school, I liked learning. I had good teachers and bad teachers and ok teachers... I also had personal accountability to myself. If I didn't understand or wanted more, I did it. Most of the time I was bored in school. My mother, teacher too, says don't just stop at the curriculum, push until it seems you can't possibly go any further and then tip toe a little further. Her kids come back to her when they get to highschool and say Mrs. ..., I am so bored, we learned this stuff in 6th and 7th grade.

[YvonneCa]

44. Sounds like your mom was a wonderful teacher...

...because her advice about teaching is right. I'm sorry about your sister...what happened to her happened to my daughter, as well. And...given an ounce of support...I'd bet they both could have been great teachers.

I'm nearing retirement from teaching. What I have seen go away since NCLB is respect for teachers, classroom creativity (in all curricular areas for all children), the curiosity and 'inquisitiveness' of children, and a positive, nurturing learning environment at my school (for both the students and the adults).

It has been replaced with regimentation of curriculum, lack of respect for teachers, a 'square pegs in round holes mentality', and a negative, competitive teaching environment that I could not recommend as a profession to consider to my worst enemy...let alone my daughter. That's just SAD.

Teaching is not a business. Running it like it is won't work. Often the best teachers work with children with the greatest need (Title I, Special Ed. English Learners, etc.) and make GREAT progress...which accountability-wise still doesn't meet the set standard...and these hard-working professionals are being punished by NCLB. I know this because after a long, successful career (master teacher, mentor teacher, Teacher of the Year at my school twice, etc.) I'm now being pushed to retire...all based on test scores, because I VOLUNTEERED for years to teach the struggling students in Math and Reading. THAT'S PLAIN WRONG. And if you add $ to that wrong-headed process, it will become worse. (Sorry, Senator Obama!) :)

I'm for accountability...FAIR accountability...in education. NCLB was supposed to start that, but it became punitive. I used to think we could keep the good part of NCLB and fix what was wrong, but I now think it should be tossed...mostly because it has come to represent Bush's effort to dismantle public schools. I think that was his goal. It had nothing to do with what was good for children or education...just his 'ownership society' mentality of getting rid of government safety nets and privatizing everything. PATHETIC.

[JerseygirlCT]

137. Oh, I don't think so. Ever ask about a doctor? Or look for a personal

reference for an accountant or a lawyer?

Ever leave a doctor because of dissatisfaction with the way he/she did the job?

Everyone has something to say about everyone, trust that.

[MadHound]

22. Obama might actually have the best interests of teachers at heart

But this is a bone-headed idea. First, how do you seperate out the work that a teacher does from the effects of parents, peers and society in general? A teacher could be going all out for a child, but if the kid has problems at home, the teacher's work is all for naught.

In addition, merit pay will damn well be another club which will be used to brutalize teachers with.

And frankly, at this point in the game, teachers need an across the board raise, not based on a damn thing other than the fact that they are one of the most underpaid professions going. This is what happens when you put the power of the purse into the hands of the voting public.

Sorry, but this will be just one more reason for me to not vote for Obama.

[Hippo_Tron]

67. Obama has proposed an accross the board raise as well

Although I'm sure that whatever it is, it probably needs to be more. Still, it's a start.

IMO, it would be much easier to weed out bad teachers if there was competition for their jobs. But the anti-intellectual culture in our country will make it extremely difficult to raise teacher pay to the level that it should be.

[madfloridian]

69. How do you judge a "good" teacher?

What are your criteria?

[YvonneCa]

77. That IS the important question here...

...that Obama (and others who like the merit pay idea) need to answer.

In my experience...currently...it is ONLY TEST SCORES and nothing else that are being used. And, if my understanding is correct, there is now a definition of 'Highly Qualified and EFFECTIVE Teacher' being used to judge teachers where every district must designate 75% of teachers to fit that definition and 25% that do not fit and need to improve. If that's true, it's horrendous.

[Hippo_Tron]

84. I leave that to someone who knows more about education than I do

[YvonneCa]

75. Question...

...for you: How is it 'easier to weed out bad teachers' by creating competition for their jobs?

[madrchsod]

25. who cares ? hillary has won

actually it`s pointless to even consider anyone else`s ideas on what`s wrong with our country and how to fix them. we should all concentrate on what hillary is going to do.

[Sparkly]

27. I think things like this should be kept in perspective

I have great respect for public school teachers. Where I weigh in on the issue of merit pay isn't the point here. I think it's a matter of perspective.

1. Relatively speaking, this is not a huge, life-and-death issue. It doesn't seem to me it should make or break a campaign either way.

2. Relatively speaking, the president's role in policies for teacher salaries is not insurmountably dictatorial. Congress can be lobbied to listen not only to the teachers' unions, but also to their state and local education boards.

3. There clearly needs to be a dialogue about the whole notion of "rating" schools and teachers in comparison with each other, as though all students were uniform widgets. The discussion has to include listening to the people closest to the classrooms themselves -- teachers -- instead of getting farther and farther away from them in layers of bureaucracy. Hopefully, any Democratic president would be better at that, and place more value on public education overall, than any Republican; but the need for a change of perspective on "ratings" and "measurements" is still something too few seem to understand or address. That debate would go a long way toward clarifying the problems with merit pay, as well as a slew of other issues.

[illinoisprogressive]

33. Obama's sister is a teacher and knows the problems teachers face

[madfloridian]

34. Children are not objects to be tested and used for judging teachers.

He is wrong about merit pay.

[YvonneCa]

42. If that's the case...

...then he should understand how merit pay will tear schools apart. Looks like I'm retiring just in time...sadly.

[madfloridian]

43. I beat you to it....when Jeb started in on the school systems here.

I retired in disgust soon after. What a mess it has become.

[YvonneCa]

45. Question...

...for you, then. Do you think Florida's school system (or the rest) will get better, now that Jeb is gone, and W is leaving in 2009? I guess what I'm asking is ... have you seen any signs of hope?

[madfloridian]

49. No, not yet.

Jeb's bunch still controls the legislature. Marco Rubio, the speaker, is pushing all the Bush ideas of cutting taxes to the bone and making government small enough to fit in a bathtub if not smaller.

[YvonneCa]

65. Thanks for responding...

...and I'm sorry to hear about the lack of improvement. My grain of hope in this issue grows smaller by the day.

[maximusveritas]

35. This will pay off big time for Obama in the end

Merit pay is a very popular idea, especially in the terms he presented it. Most polls I've seen place support at 70-80%. And those opposed are usually opposing it due to their mistaken notion of what merit pay must mean. It also helps that it's the right thing to do for our kids.

[YvonneCa]

47. Being 'popular' does not make it correct...

...or workable. If I remember correctly... 70-80 % of the population thought Saddam caused 9/11 and they were wrong...but Bush used their lack of information to push his policy and start a war in Iraq. Polls often reflect the fact that people support an idea that 'sounds' good, without having read up on or been educated on what the true facts are. Bush has used the public's lack of information to push through MANY policies of his that are DISASTROUS. The general public is woefully ignorant on life in and the law about public education. If/when they learn the truth about public schools, Merit pay may not be so popular.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3376557&mesg_id=3377005






Question: Tell me how/why you think "...it's the right thing to do for our kids."

[draft_mario_cuomo]

57. Bingo! What he is doing here is triangulating for the GE. Sound familiar?

;)

[last_texas_dem]

63. I'd be interested in your definition of what it means, exactly

since you believe that most who disagree with it oppose it solely because their notion of what it must mean is "mistaken."

[LWolf]

46. This insures that,

not only will Barack Obama NEVER, at any point in this lifetime, get my vote for any office that exists on earth,

I will be exercising considerable time and energy with my colleagues to reduce the number of primary votes he receives from the education community, one teacher at a time.

[jefferson_dem]

48. Interesting. Not all educators are so offended.

For those interested, video excerpts and a full transcript at https://www.nea.org/membersonly/news/2007webcast-obama.html

[LWolf]

50. Educators, like most people,

don't all form their opinions in lock-step. I'm sure there will be some teachers who will support Obama in spite of his "mentor pay" bullshit. I would venture to suggest that, perhaps, in my opinion of course, they have other reasons for supporting him and need to be able to ignore, excuse, or overlook such an obviously, to anyone who's spent any time in public education, destructive position.

Happily, there are plenty of us who know better.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

58. The vast majority are because they know the 300 year old failed record of this policy

Thankfully, aside from Republicans and one Third Way Democrat, no other presidential candidate supports this disastrous policy. Since the next president is likely to be a Democrat education should be safe from this assault so long as Obama is denied the nomination.

[jefferson_dem]

83. What are you talking about?

So now Obama's a conservative protector of the stagnant status quo? Or...is he recommending sweeping "accountability-based" reforms that are bound to piss off educators and their supporters?

Which is it?

Perhaps it's simply whichever will give you traction on a new round of swipes at Obama.

[madfloridian]

59. Here is the new DLC plan for merit pay....link.

http://dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=139&subid=273&contentid=3582

DLC | Model Initiatives | July 27, 2007
Innovating With Competitive Teacher Pay
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Dem Play | Ensuring teachers are competent and linking their pay to their performance
Where It's Working | Chattanooga, Tenn.; North Carolina; Denver, Colo.; Pennsylvania; and school districts and charter schools around the country
Players | Federal, state, district, and local officials
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

And from 1999

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=110&subid=135&contentid=1056

"DLC | The New Democrat | November 1, 1999
An Idea With Merit
By Theo Yedinsky

Teachers unions traditionally have loathed proposals to tie their members' salaries or raises to measures of student or school achievement. They have continually denounced merit pay plans as being unscientific, too subjective, and unfair because they hold teachers accountable for factors beyond their control."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There's a lot more there about the poor underperforming teachers.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

72. It is funny that the allegedly "anti-DLC/HRC" is literally taking a page from the DLC playbook nt

[jefferson_dem]

78. He's heralded as the only viable alternative to Hillary, i'll grant you that.

I'm not sure where you get the whole "anti-DLC" talking point from. I can only imagine it's because those seeking truth in advertising are constantly needing to correct those who claim he is a DLCer when actually he's not...and never has been.

Edwards was/is, however...but we already knew that.

[madfloridian]

60. The DLC has tried for years to "transform" (privatize) public schools.

It doesn't matter what they call it, it is getting away from the public school system. Read Al From's take on it. Obama is spouting their nonsense.

Transforming by privatizing. That's what its all about.

http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.asp?ID=2693

"Characterizing charter schools as "oases of innovation," From writes, "The time has come to bring life to the rest of the desert-by introducing the same forces of choice and competition to every public school in America."

From also says Democrats should work to redefine the very notion of public education itself.

"We should rid ourselves of the rigid notion that public schools are defined by who owns and operates them," he writes. "In the twenty-first century, a public school should be any school that is of the people (accountable to public authorities for its results), by the people (paid for by the public), and for the people (open to the public and geared toward public purposes)."

The DLC's mission, as part of the Democratic Party, is to articulate "a new public philosophy built on progressive ideals, mainstream values, and innovative, nonbureaucratic solutions."

Commonly known as the "New Democrats," the DLC was noted in 1992 as playing an instrumental role in the nomination of one of its former chairs, Bill Clinton, as the party's candidate for president."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

And the DLC spanks the NEA for not wanting to cripple public education.

http://www.ndol.net/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=1359

"This week the nation's largest teachers union, the National Education Association, rejected a mildly worded resolution endorsing limited experimentation with performance-based teacher pay. The excuses offered for this disappointing action are familiar and largely pointless: states and school boards could theoretically use merit-based pay to cut teacher salaries or use the wrong performance measurements. It's always possible, of course, to implement a good idea the wrong way, but that's no reason to reject the idea itself.

The contrast between the NEA and its sister union, the American Federation of Teachers, on this issue is typical and instructive. While not explicitly endorsing the concept, AFT President Sandra Feldman in an interesting and important speech to the Economic Club of Detroit, in January, urged a greater willingness among teachers to look at alternative pay schemes as a way to raise teacher pay and reward excellence and high skill.

In the long run, linking teacher pay to performance is not only the best way, but the only way, to muster public support for the higher salaries that teachers' unions rightly support"

Bull Hockey.

[madfloridian]

66. Here is the DLC goal for public schools...from Utah professor.

Charter schools are the answer, they say.

Charter schools involve businesses, it is called privatizing.

"Those at the Democratic Leadership Council believe the best option is a Third Way: a system of charter schools which are publicly accountable but free from the strict regulations that apply to schools today. Critics from both ends of the ideological spectrum believe that the DLC’s plan is simply the middle ground. The plan offends teachers’ unions — but not as much as privatization would — and conservatives — but not as much as if nothing were done at all. It appeases those middle class citizens who want some school system reform but who are not quite ready to redesign the system completely."

Goody, test the kids to death to judge the teachers and then let everybody go to charter schools....and leave the poor on their own.

Read this whole page to fully understand...if you really care about public education.

http://www.lib.utah.edu/epubs/hinckley/v2/lyman.htm

But if you just want to spout talking points...don't bother.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

74. A rather important part

of his speech tho in my eyes

And if you excel at helping your students achieve success, your success will be valued and rewarded as well. Here's the key: We can find new ways to increase pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them and not based on some arbitrary test score. That's how we're going to close the achievement gap that exists in this country and that's how we're going to start treating teachers like the professionals you are.

Working with the teachers to find the best solution sounds like an wise course of action to me, and he seems to agree with most that tests should not be the focus, but more something that will help teachers know what kind of help that student needs(as the below part of his speech states)

And while we're at it, let's work with teachers and principals to finally develop assessments that teach our kids to become more than just good test-takers. The goal of educational testing should be the same as medical testing - to diagnose a student's needs so you can help address them. Tests should not be designed as punishment for teachers and students, they should be used as tools to help prepare our children to grow and compete in a knowledge economy. Tests should support learning, not just accounting.

An teachers comment:
A few months ago, I had the opportunity to take a bus ride with a group of Iowa teachers and discuss their thoughts on education. Afterwards, one teacher said, "I don't think any teacher minds being accountable when the measuring tool is fair to educators and not about satisfying unrealistic goals."

And an idea i liked from it:
We also know that when it comes to struggling schools, it's not just how much you're getting paid that matters, but how much support you're getting to do your job. We know that when you pair experienced, mentor teachers with new teachers, those new teachers are much more likely to stay in the profession. So let's make sure we start developing more mentor teachers so we can start recruiting and keeping the new generation of teachers we need.

All in all to me it seems he want to work with the teachers to find solutions that works(and even tho most call it merit pay i think its slightly misleading as its similar but not the same thing) rather then imposing his own views on them

Also to me it shows a certain kind of courage to walk into a locale that likely had the largest amount of people against merit pay and speak of something similar to it(it also says something that he was not booed/hissed at, but the teachers actually seemed interested in what he had to say)

Just my point of view and feelings(not to be confused with facts even tho i've seen similar things work quite well)

[madfloridian]

76. Involving children in judging teachers....a dangerous path.

There are so many county rules to hold teachers accountable....why do we need more from the DLC?

You need to check with your county. We had so many ways of being judged that I can't believe we need more.

It is a manufactured thing.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

80. I think i pointed out

That Obama does *NOT* want to use tests for accounting, his view of tests is that they should be the same as medical testing - to diagnose a student's needs so the teachers can help address them. (Which is what tests used to do for a while here in Norway, they are heading toward the current US system of being the target tho rather then a helping tool these days(if they haven't reached it already) )

atleast thats what i read from his speech and one exchange i recall with a teacher a number of years back(roughly) which is a reason i dislike a number of tests(admittedly the same teacher disliked them as well)

me: What use will we have of what we are currently learning
teacher: It will be a part of your exam
me: And after that
teacher: I doubt you will need it, i have not needed it since i finished school

[madfloridian]

82. All of that is already being done extensively.

Tests, criteria, benchmarks..goals...over and over. No time for teaching.

[CTLawGuy]

104. facts just get in the way of the outrage

NT

[Bodhi BloodWave]

112. Very true most the time,

it won't stop me from continuing to offer the facts in a calm and (hopefully) reasonable manner tho B-)

[ulysses]

68. ah, the glories of competition.

:eyes:

Damned stupid idea. Obama is way wrong on this one.

[Gloria]

81. Put him in front of a classroom for a day....

[YvonneCa]

87. There you go...

...GREAT IDEA...ready, Senator Obama????? :7

[LostInAnomie]

88. I just love the idea that there are hordes lazy, worthless teachers out there.

That's really the underlying idea for merit pay proponents. "The American education system would be #1 if it wasn't for those lazy teachers that are protected by unions and tenure. Why should good teachers be held back at the expense of these bad ones?" It's union busting bullshit dressed up as "concern for the children".

Let merit pay become law and see how long it is until "merit" becomes mandatory progress. See how long it will be until "merit pay" is treated like a quota system. See how long teachers unions last once pay is distributed unequally amongst teachers.



Fuck Obama if he's pushing this shit.

[calteacherguy]

90. That's my greatest difficulty with what he is suggesting.

Why is he not spending more time talking about the real problems in education?

[YvonneCa]

91. Probably because...

...like much of the general public who aren't in schools every day...he has NO IDEA what the real problems are.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

98. I think he likely has some idea

considering the fact that his sister is a teacher.

Also if you reach the transcript of his whole speech he does touch upon a few other points as well, and did comment that he would release detail of his plans to invest a lot of money into teaching in the coming weeks

In the coming weeks, I'll be laying out the specific details of my plan to invest billions of new dollars into the teaching profession and recruit an army of well-trained, well-qualified teachers who are willing to stand at the front of any classroom and give every student the chance to succeed.

[calteacherguy]

89. Well, these ideas are worth looking at, but they are from the editorial

not what Obama said:

"For instance, we agree with Springfield Public Schools Superintendent Norm Ridder who believes that teachers who agree to commit to working at certain Title 1 schools, where levels of poverty are higher and the population tends to be transient, should receive their own special stipend — a form of merit pay — because of the difficulties of taking children who are less prepared to learn and improving their achievement. Ridder hopes to implement such a plan in Springfield, and we believe it's the logical first step toward talking about a real performance-based-pay system.

We also agree with school board member Jean Twitty who suggested during her recent campaign that principals ought to be the first in line for performance based pay. Indeed, for those teachers who are afraid that merit pay leads to competition instead of cooperation, we say, why can't we have both? One of the successful elements of merit pay that has been instituted in school districts across the country has been the concept of rewarding groups of teachers, either in a subject area or specific school, for working together to raise performance."

If Obama denounces teaching to the test and merit pay based on standardized tests, great. Setting teacher against teacher is not the solution. Furthermore, any solution to our educational crises must involve parent, child, teacher, and community. We need to be wary of those who place the responsibility for the ills of the system on the backs of hard-working, dedicated teachers.

It does take a village.

[maximusveritas]

92. Obama already did denounce "teaching to the test and merit pay based on standardized tests"

After all the crap you gave him, you really didn't read his whole speech? Amazing. Maybe it's time to put you on ignore.

[YvonneCa]

95. Have you had a bad day...

...mv?

[CTLawGuy]

105. again facts only get in the way of the outrage

NT

[YvonneCa]

93. I agree with this...

...part of your post completely:

"If Obama denounces teaching to the test and merit pay based on standardized tests, great. Setting teacher against teacher is not the solution. Furthermore, any solution to our educational crises must involve parent, child, teacher, and community. We need to be wary of those who place the responsibility for the ills of the system on the backs of hard-working, dedicated teachers.

It does take a village."


I have taught at a Title 1 school for 23 years. If teachers will be only judged by test scores and not the 'multi-faceted teacher role', the very teachers who dedicate their lives and careers towards making these schools work will be punished for having chosen to do that.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3376557&mesg_id=3377005

[calteacherguy]

94. Kudos to you. nt

[Ethelk2044]

103. With the comments of Obama denouncing teaching based on Test Scores

means you did not listen or read his whole speech. Obama came out against this already. People are trying to speak out against Obama, yet they did not read his whole speech. His speech addressed all of these issues. He also stated he was willing to work with the teachers to come up with a plan that will insure all issues would be address. He also addressed the issues with including the parents. It just lets me know that the people are trying to address issues about Obama they are not fully are of because they did not take the time to read his speech. They are saying the same thing Obama is saying.

[Maestro]

114. Merit pay is stupid for teachers.

Teachers do not deal with widgets that are the same. The reasons for a child's learning or not learning have many factors all of which can not be laid on the shoulders of a teacher. If teachers' pay should be based on merit pay then I want a dentist's pay based on the number of cavities his/her patients have. What merit pay will do is force teachers to migrate to schools with high performance and high parental involvement and leave the under-performing, poorer schools in poorer districts. This is just another way to screw education. If you want to improve teacher performance, increase pay across the board to attract the brightest to teach and stop slapping teachers in the face. Obama just lost a bit of credibility with me.

[GeorgeGist]

116. Cooperation is needed ...

to improve the quality of education. Competition is intended to defeat competitors.

[JerseygirlCT]

134. I agree with this. nt

[LWolf]

136. Obama gets right-wing on teacher pay.

The dlc and right-wing conservative think tanks have been pushing merit pay, and charter schools, and vouchers, for quite awhile now.

I REALLY don't think Obama's endorsement of dlc and right wing ed proposals is a good talking point for his campaign.

[ProudDad]

138. Obama gets it right - NOT!!!!!

Check this out. From a real teacher, not someone who plays one on TV:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3377303