If You Feed Into The Hillary/Edwards Debate Scuffle

[ruggerson]

You're feeding into a Fox designed, rightwing orchestrated, Drudge-hyped story.

Kucinich responded, puppet-like, just as the rightwing wanted him to. He was "outraged."

When are we going to learn NOT to let the rightwing have two days of free press at our expense? They are LAUGHING that they were able to push this story and now progressives are arguing amongst themselves about it.

Clinton, whether you like her or not, is leading in the polls in many states and had a quick conversation with Edwards that ANY frontrunner would have about trying to find some outlets where they would have more face time. It wasn't undemocratic, it wasn't anything Kucinich should throw a fit about, it was hard elbows politics as usual - nothing out of the ordinary at all.

Lesson: don't respond to Republican hyped stories. Just smile and say fuck 'em.

[saltpoint]

1. I urge DUers to ignore that trumped-up controversy and

instead look forward to THE MEMOIRS OF HADRIAN, a film about the life of the Roman emporer.

It's in pre-production now, I think, and will star Antonio Banderas as Hadrian.

[Tellurian]

2. Kooch needs a rest!

Ah, I plucked a stone out of Hadrian's wall. It's sitting here on my desk..

[saltpoint]

5. If the authorities aren't coming hunting for you, I say good for you

for honoring a great man with your acquisition.

My high school history teachers skimmed over Hadrian, but my father, also a history teacher, gave me much to consider about him.

It's a fine present from a parent to a child to ask consideration of great people of history.

Hadrian's one such.

[Tellurian]

9. No, no authorities after me..

It was a great experience. We backpacked for miles along the hilly terrain and picniced in a shady glen.

Here is a great link now that the Wall has been designated a World Heritage site.

http://www.hadrians-wall.org/Plan_day_map.aspx

[saltpoint]

13. Thanks for that link. I'll explore it. On three travels to England I've

failed to get to the wall.

Shame on me.

Look for it as a priority on the fourth trip over.

[NYCGirl]

3. If that conversation had gone on between Clinton and Obama, there would have

been screams of "I told you so!" and yelling that would last for months.

[Adelante]

7. No kidding!!

It would be CLOBAMA forever!

[NYCGirl]

12. LOL! So I guess now it'd be alright to start calling Clinton and Edwards...

CLEDWARDS!

[SoxFan]

33. Thank you

Draft Mario Cujo's head would have exploded with righteous indignation, and Tellurian would be in the Mother of All High Dudgeons!

[zulchzulu]

41. Bingo!

I could only imagine what would be said here at DU if Obama was talking to Edwards about how they need to get rid of the second tier candidates in the debates.

You'd see "he's so arrogant!" or "who the hell does he think he is!" or "that guy thinks he's better than the others"... but not a peep about it if it's from Clinton or Edwards.

Just a "move along here", "shut your piehole", "it's a right wing conspiracy" line of BS.

From the Republicans I know and have talked to recently, they WANT Clinton as the nominee....bad! It's the only way they will get behind their candidate. Rupert Murdoch has had fundraisers for Senator Clinton... he wants the GOP to win in 2008.

So please, dear Clinton fans, don't blame Fox for what the hen does.

[Cameron27]

51. We haven't heard anything from Richardson either,

and Edwards isn't polling much higher than he is. They're both getting a lot of bad press about the appearance of this, so I think Obama can cause some real damage if he wants to.

[PATRICK]

4. Exactly.

Candidate supporters who look for any opportunity to guess and interpret negative things against another candidate support the GOP more than their own candidate and indicate a problem more for their own candidate in the process. The attempt to bloviate and bully for Kerry did not help or stand by him when he self-destructed early on. Nor did it help others.

It doesn't hurt to cut our people some slack and stay positive- for the good of the nation, for those dying daily in Iraq... at least? The boundary line on substantive issues and canaidate weaknesses should be the problem area, not mike whispers.

[MaineDem]

6. Thank you!

Fox is making this an issue and many are buying into it. Sad!

[NYCGirl]

8. So's the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/13/AR2007071301891.html?nav=rss_print/asection

Fellow candidate Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich (Ohio) lashed out at Edwards. "This is a serious matter, and I'm calling him on it," Kucinich said. "Whispering, trying to rig an election, then denying what's going on and making excuses. It all reflects a consistent lack of integrity."

Edwards and Clinton were asked about the exchange yesterday, and they offered different explanations. In New Hampshire, Clinton seemed to lay responsibility on Edwards. "I think he has some ideas about what he'd like to do," she said, adding that she liked participating in the forums.

Edwards told reporters in Iowa that he wasn't in favor of barring anyone from future gatherings. Rather, he said he wanted to see them separated into two groups of four candidates each, chosen randomly. "The result would be that we would have a much more serious discussion, and people would actually be able to see what the differences are between us," he said.

Kucinich called Edwards's explanation "disturbing" and said he planned to contact Edwards and Clinton to demand an apology. "I accept their offer to participate in a debate with just the two of them," Kucinich said. "John should be happy with this, since he wants a small group."

[ruggerson]

14. The Washington Post only picked it up

AFTER a Fox open mike, conveniently left on, had recorded it and then Drudge headlined it with the accompanying "Kucinich is furious" story.

ABC, NBC, Wa Post newsrooms all read Drudge and take their cues from his site if they think the story will generate buzz. Thus, an RNC or Fox originated story, designed purely to embarrass Democrats, can be hyped by Drudge for half a day, upon which, the MSM, like lemmings will often pick it up and it thus becomes a supposed "legitimate" news story.

Watch it happen next time. It unfolds before your eyes and is incredibly transparent.

[NYCGirl]

15. And I guess that Fox FORCED Edwards and Clinton to say those things, too.

If there wasn't a recording of it, I might believe you. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

[ruggerson]

17. It was a conversation

any political frontrunner(s) would have. If Kucinich was the frontrunner, he would have been saying the same thing. They all want more face time, and more face time has to come at the expense of SOMEONE.

It is a total non story.

[NYCGirl]

19. If Kucinich was having that conversation, perhaps he'd be smart enough to wait

until he was backstage and away from potential open mikes!

[ruggerson]

21. And perhaps we'd be smart enough

not to buy into and perpetuate a non story hyped by rightwingers :hi:

[NYCGirl]

23. It seems to be "hyped" by everyone. Those two got caught with their hands

right in the cookie jar.

[stray cat]

36. How dare any candidate have a conversation that they don't want broadcast!

Lets make it a reality show with microphones and cameras on 24/7. :7

[NYCGirl]

40. If they don't want to have it broadcast, perhaps they should find a place to talk

that has no microphones, eh? They thought those were off, and that the loud music would cover their conversation...OOPS!

[zulchzulu]

44. Fox has a way of inducing odd little behavior to the Clintons

Damn! They had the power switch on again!

:sarcasm:

[BeyondGeography]

10. The fun part is watching Hillary lie about the whole thing

"Oh, there I was just listening while John told me about some of his ideas."

Or did Fox's microphones make her do it?

What a perfect bunch of sheep you would have us be.

[ruggerson]

16. Many of the left AREsheep

they file into line behind someone like Cindy Sheehan and then only begin to see the light, if then even, when she starts attacking Democrats.

The rightwing media in this country plays the far left like a fiddle. And they do it with a very brutal political purpose: to leave the impression with the independent voter that the Democrats are dominated by far left loons like Cindy Sheehan and her acolytes, when, in reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

The name of their game is to try to marginalize mainstream Democrats. This story, meant to enrage Kucinich and his supporters against Clinton and Edwards, is prima facie evidence of what they do ALL THE TIME.

[BeyondGeography]

20. Oh bullshit....A big pile of bullshit

When you wear these things :tinfoilhat: it can affect your ability to think clearly.

[ruggerson]

24. Apparently you don't read Drudge

and then watch how the MSM takes cues from him. It happens like clockwork.

Three reporters from the WA Post have actually said what I have outlined above on Keith O's show. MSM reporters are lazy and if the RNC/Fox/Drudge/Limbaugh echo chamber provides them with a ready made, manufactured "scandal", they will report on it.

[BeyondGeography]

26. So submissive...all hail the mighty Drudge

you should hear yourself.

[ruggerson]

28. It's reality, dude

it's how the media in this country works, unfortunately. And we don't have a competing left leaning, pro democratic site that every reporter in the MSM checks with their daily coffee. (Altho HuffPo is trying to be that and may yet succeed, but they have to start coordinating with the DNC and leftwing radio hosts in order to get up to Drudge/Limbaugh/RNC speed and I don't think Arianna is willing do that.)

[NYCGirl]

35. HuffPo is carrying this story, though:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070713/kucinich-edwards-debate/

[Cameron27]

38. ...

[sallyseven]

25. Why do you democratic bashers bother to

come on DU?

[BeyondGeography]

27. Right, let's be good Democrats and let people connive away

and then lie about what happened afterward. Even if they're on tape, we can blame it all on Fox and Drudge.

[mzteris]

11. did you see what Elizabeth had to say about it?

"John meant what he said in Iowa: he wants smaller groups (or longer debates) so that there can be an end to the notion that a candidate can skate through the debates with sound bite answers. Everyone has sixty seconds to explain their health care plan and John's truly universal plan ends up sounding just like a "plan" to talk about health care. It does a disservice to the voters. Since no one (maybe not even the candidates' spouses!) would watch a three hour debate, it seems more sensible to have a series of randomly constituted smaller groups. Listen, John wants to talk about substance; that should be no surprise. And the format with this many candidates doesn't allow that to happen. If you have an idea that would work, let us know. Or better yet, let MSNBC and CNN know."


There's a DU thread about it on here somewhere. I saw it late last night.

[Catchawave]

18. Elizabeth posted that on MyDD, here's the link:

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2007/7/13/215314/314/14?mode=alone


thanks for sharing her comments :hi:

[zulchzulu]

42. Why didn't Edwards want to share his "wonderful idea" with Obama when he walked up?

What a load of shit.

If Edwards was such a cool guy who wanted to have a new debate format or whatever, why didn't he anything to Obama when he walked up to him? Obama isn't kicking his ass enough yet?

The more I see the Excuseniks for Edwards or Clinton try to squirm some line of bull about "what they really meant", the more I see why I don't prefer either of those candidates. If Obama had been doing that kind of talking, oh the mighty rage would be displayed for us minions...

[mzteris]

45. oh please - you're just looking for

something to be pissed about.

It was obvious E & C were continuing a conversation. They have schedules. They didn't want a full scale discussion right there. doh. Or didn't that occur to you?

I LIKE THEM ALL.

I LOVE OBAMA.

I LOVE HILLARY.

I really really like Edwards.

I REALLY LOVE GORE (though not a candidate).

I think CLARK (though not a candidate) would be the most excellent President.

I'm probably leaving some out that I like.

I don't know a lot about the 'others'. What little I do know, eh.


My "dream ticket": Clinton/Obama.

It's about GD TIME that America had something besides an old white guy for President, don't you think? That's not to say I wouldn't support nor vote for any of the others.

I've been accused of being an "X" supporter and an "X" hater for just about every single candidate out there. Maybe that's because I try and be logical about these things and BECAUSE I'm not "married to any single ONE" I can be a tad more objective?

Think about it.

[zulchzulu]

48. I'm only looking for moral clarity, not moral selectivity

I blame Edwards first for bringing the "plan" up with Clinton and I see how Clinton seemed entitled to get her people to talk to his people, yet only a motherly "Hi Barack!" to Obama when he stopped by to congratulate them. If she was legit, she would have asked for his opinion too. But, no...

As for a Clinton/Obama ticket...no thanks. I want a leader, not a panderer.

[sallyseven]

22. AMEN

The repugs plant ideas and then stand back an marvel on how stupid the American People are.

[ima_sinnic]

29. the only people advising not to "respond" are Shillary & Edwards supporters

For supporters of candidates like Kucinich whose strings are not being pulled by corporate interests, it's just more of the same orchestrated marginalizing. I don't see Shillary and Edwards coming forth with a big case for how it would benefit the American people for ALL voices to be heard. They already have the MSM fixated on them, to the exclusion of so-called nonserious candidates like Kucinich and Gravel, ONLY because the "serious" ones are the most exploitable by the globalists, who care NOTHING about We The People. The "serious" ones are NO THREAT to the status quo.

As far as I am concerned, this is not about Kucinich, it's about Shillary & Edwards and their assumption that they are "serious" while others are not. Fuck both of them.

I am supporting Kucinich until Gore and/or Clark enters the ring. Then all bets are off.

[MaineDem]

30. I'm not supporting any candidate yet

But, seriously, some candidates do not have a chance. I know that a lot can happen between now and January when the first vote is cast but some of these guys are running for a cabinet seat.

And we do not know what was being discussed and whether other camps are being brought in. We aren't in any position to know what the campaigns are discussing unless we're part of those groups.

I'm convinced the GOP is playing this up for all it's worth and I for one will not go along with them. We have enough other important things to talk about.

[SoxFan]

34. Funny how that works. isn't it?

:hi:

[emulatorloo]

31. Fox Mics, Fox Feeds, Fox Story -- Sorry I don't trust fox

As you know Fox has a history of presenting democrats in the WORST POSSIBLE LIGHT>

I have seen the video of the report and to me it is unclear what the hell they are talking about.

VID HERE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x40560

Read the subtitles -- totally unclear what the conversation is about.

But fox reporter immediately jumps to the conclusion that they are "plotting" to exclude Dennis Kucinich et al.

IMHO Fox Lied and Distorted

Fox has a history of misreporting things to put Democrats in the worst light possible. My feeling is that they do it to pit democrat activists against one another -- Divide and Conquer is the oldest RNC GOP ROVE strategy in the book.

DU thread re edwards explanation:

What the "secret conversation" was really about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1328351&mesg_id=1328351

[CitizenLeft]

32. is there a youtube video of this, or audio, on the net?

I want to hear it for myself and make up my own mind what happened. I understand that they didn't stop talking or divert the conversation when others joined them - which should put an end to all the "conspiracy" talk about it - and I want to discern that for myself.

[Alamom]

46. You hear few words on the video. Much you have read was not said. It's conjecture..

or just lies. I have incredible hearing and have listened to it many times and can pick out a few words...Nothing that can be pinned down to what Faux and the MSM is guessing, saying and printing.

So, NO...there is no cleaned up audio of that tape. I thought someone could most likely take out the noise and firm up the claims. They haven't.

I don't think they want people to know what was really said....they like Dems eating their own.

[CitizenLeft]

57. thank you, Alamom.

Then I'll wait until I hear one to make accusations.

[MadHound]

37. While Fox may have conviently left the mic on,

Clinton and Edwards were not forced to have that little talk. And no, this is not a conversation that *any* frontrunner would have on the election campaign, especially six months out from the first primary and a year out from the convention.

This is not a trivial issue, this is the top two corporate candidates conspiring to not just limit the debate, but to also limit the messages that get out. Clinton and Edwards are both tired of being (correctly) reprimanded for their actions, stances and plans for the Iraq war. God forbid that we actually have a candidate with a conscience, who follows the will of the people and is against the war.

Frankly, if the tables were turned, I'm sure that both Clinton and Edwards would also be pissed and their supporters screaming to the sky. What those two did was an abhorent political move especially this early in the game, and no amount of rationalization on the part of the candidates and their supporters rings hollow.

[Colobo]

39. Good point.

[Alamom]

54. What did they say, exactly? What is this conspiracy? Can this

tape Faux has not be cleaned up and the real conversation be heard....or more of it. Why has that not been done?

[AlGore-08.com]

43. LOL if Giuliani and Romney were caught having the same conversation DU would tar and feather them

They would be paraded out every five seconds as proof that the Republicans hate Democracy and don't fight fair. Any Freeper who posted something like "I don't believe this actually happened because it was CNN's mike, it's CNN's video and CNN's reporting the story and now the Huffington Post is covering it" would be ridiculed for weeks here as a sign of just how delusional the Republicans have become. Any Freeper who posted that other Freepers should not discuss the story itself or its implications because Freepers must post nothing but positive stories about the Republican candidates would be similarly ridiculed as proof of how Freepers are Stalinists and ditto-heads.

And if the MSM wasn't covering the Giuliani/Romney open mike gaffe, the cries of "Cover up!!" would never end.

[Alamom]

52. What is the conversation? From the tape, not what someone thinks is being said.

TIA

[TeamJordan23]

47. Neither Edwards or Clinton denied the allegations. Edwards fine tuned it and Clinton blamed Edwards

Edwards now says they were talking about limiting it to smaller groups. I wonder who they were referring to when they said "They're Not Serious"

[draft_mario_cuomo]

50. They were referring to farcical debates, not any individual

But you knew that already...

[draft_mario_cuomo]

49. Notice that Gravel, Dodd, and Biden are all silent on this

Only Kucinich, like he did with the Faux debate, resorted to attacking fellow Democrats in a desperate attempt to get some TV time.

[Alamom]

53. Great point. eom

[IndianaGreen]

56. Chris Dodd is certainly not silent about this. Here is what he told the AP.

Edwards, Clinton Chided for Exchange
By BROCK VERGAKIS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour ago]

SALT LAKE CITY - Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd on Saturday criticized rivals John Edwards and Hillary Rodham Clinton, who were overheard discussing among themselves their hope of limiting the number of Democrats in presidential debates.

The private exchange was picked up by several broadcasters on an open microphone after an NAACP forum in Detroit on Thursday. All the Democratic contenders took part in the program, including Barack Obama, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich.

"I'd remind them that the mike is always on," Dodd told reporters on Saturday after addressing a state convention of Utah Democrats.

"Celebrity and money are not going to decide this race," he said. "People take some offense at it in these early primary and caucus states."


http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/07/14/714567.html&cvqh=itn_edwards

[IndianaGreen]

55. Sounds to me like the DLC/Hillary spinmeisters are trying to spin this story out of existence

Telling us it isn't important, which shows the utter contempt they really have for the Democratic rank-and-file and the democratic process. There is little difference between them and the GOP when it comes to power grabs.

[Maryland Liberal]

58. Amen Brother

You are SO right - err - correct