To borrow a theme from LoZoccolo: Why do some think it is flamebait to post anti-Nader threads?

[wyldwolf]

Why do some think it is flamebait to post anti-Nader threads? No one screams "flamebait" over anti-Republican candidate posts and they BOTH are working for the demise of the Democratic party.

[cboy4]

1. He irritates me.

So does Nader. ;)

[Buzz Clik]

2. Gee, that's a challenging question. Here are some similarly tough ones:

1. Why do some people think the Washington Monument looks like a gigantic schlong?
   
2. How come John McCain's campaign is in the toilet? And Gravel's?
   
3. What is it about Ann Coulter that pisses off Democrats?
   
4. Is Jeopardy harder to play than Wheel of Fortune?
   
5. Why do people get the impression that the entire Bush administration never stops lying and manipulating?

:eyes:

[Mountainman]

3. Because most of them are. The debate over Nader causing Gore to lose is flame bait.

We've been over that a million times. Nader voters are guilty for every Supreme Court decision that does not go our way. Nader voters are responsible for any and all things you can come up with.

If you want to post an anti Nader meme why not say. "This anti Nader meme is about ideas which have their origin in the 2008 election or this anti Nader meme is a shot at all the third party voters who are responsible for anything that goes wrong from here on out!"

[Old and In the Way]

6. Wonder how those Nader voters in New Hampshire feel now?

Bush: 273,559 48% Gore: 266,348 47% Nader: 22,198 4% 4 Electoral votes.

Forget Florida, Nader's performance in New Hampshire carried the day for George W. Bush. I'll bet he's on the White House Christmas card list.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Excuse me .... but ...... uh ........

.... this is ...... uh ...... like ...... mmmmmm ....... *Democratic* Underground.

Republican Underground is over there =====>

<===== And Third Party Underground is over there

Nader is who he is. He holds allure to some on the left for some of his rhetorical positions. He wins the ire of some on the left for his actions. He deserves both.

He is not a Democrat. He deserves NOTHING here.

[SaveElmer]

30. Bingo...

Right on target!

[Old and In the Way]

4. Most of us understand the role Nader plays for the Republicans.

He's good for shaving 1-2 points off the progressive margins. It was more effective when people didn't understand how intrinsically corrupted the GOP was and there was rough parity between the Parties and Independents. Now, his candidacy is viewed as a Republican financed joke.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. reasonable discourse on his actions is not flamebait. a post of

F Nader and the horse he rode in on, is flamebait in my book. It's just hysteria for its own sake and begs others to whip up into a frenzy as well.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. Why is it flamebait?

On Third Party Underground it might be. On DEMOCRATIC Underground, it really ought to be just another thread.

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. as long as some people do not think they can have it both ways

And we don't hear any talk about how progressives are trying to -- or have tried to hijack the Democratic Party.

Most Democrats, or at the very least a sizable portion, hold progressive opinions on most issues; positions on issues not that far from positions on the issues held by someone like Mr. Nader.

I personally don't think that backing third parties is generally speaking a good idea or viable strategy for progressives. The American system just does not work that way.

But if every self-identified Democrat who agreed more with Nader on the issues ceased to identify as a Democrat and supported a third party and voted for a third-party instead, the Democratic Party would lose most of its seats in Congress and certainly have no hope of ever being a majority party.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Funny thing about the (may I remind everyone?) **never elected* Nader ....

His rhetorical views sound nice and progressive.

His actual, completed actions are pretty much in league with the right wing.

[Jed Dilligan]

8. There are a lot of former Greens here

whose support for the party is about one Shrub deep. The question is whether you want to alienate them with wild accusations or give them a reason to stay. The partisans who think we can win by triangulating or shifting right are happy enough to see them gone. But what I don't understand is, these are the same people who think the Greens lost us 2000.

Which message is it? Get lost, or STFU and fall in line? Neither one is likely to appeal to such an anti-authoritarian movement.

[ulysses]

10. it's actually both.

Which message is it? Get lost, or STFU and fall in line?

The Unity Enforcement Squad is a little confused that way, and will occasionally deliver both messages in the same post.

[Jed Dilligan]

11. That's my point.

The self-appointed unifiers of the Party need to decide whether they want the Greens purged or voting for Democrats. I'm not one but close friends of mine are, and I wonder what arguments LoZoccolo et al. would suggest for me to try to swing their '08 vote to the Democrats... or if I should bother.

[ulysses]

12. well, I wouldn't bother asking *them*.

The closest thing to an answer you're likely to get, in my experience, is a long-winded, yet enticingly vague, diatribe on purity.

You'd be more likely to get workable suggestions for talking to your friends out of someone like jpgray or The Magistrate. They're a bit more serious.

[Jed Dilligan]

14. Thanks for the recommendations

I can't talk to the Magistrate, but maybe I'll look up jpgray when the time comes.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Speaking for me alone ......

.... and neither the OP nor the one who seemingly inspired this post, I welcome everyone with open arms. I'm happy to discuss most anything. I am also not much of a triangulator and if given the choice, might vote for Dennis Kucinich faster than I might vote for ..... I dunno ..... name a DLC/triangulator candidate.

While I welcome everyone, I still think Ralph Nader is a man who has grown egocentric, despicable, irrelevant, obstructionist, and useless.

[Jed Dilligan]

25. You might want to avoid those words

when advocating to someone who lionizes him. Find common ground. I've thought Nader was a fraud since before he got into running for President, but his message has been a strong one to the disgruntled electorate.

[Cameron27]

24. I suppose, whether anyone wants to alienate the greens

depends on their purpose for posting here. If anyone's here to advocate for a third party then yeah STFU, my purpose is to get Democrats elected and to change the party from within.

[Jed Dilligan]

26. Will it help get Democrats elected

to post another thread blaming the Nader and the Greens for 2000?

:shrug:

[Cameron27]

28. If it stops anyone from recruiting potential voters

here, yeah it'll help. FWIW, I actually read the rules carefully before I joined and donated to DU. I wouldn't have become a member if third party advocacy was allowed.

[LoZoccolo]

29. I think it's appropriate that people be shamed for threatening brash destructive actions.

Everyone knows what happens when they vote third-party. There's no need to explain it. The people who threaten to do so again, and try to back it up with the big green lie, aren't trying to reason with me or you or anyone, they are trying to scare us. They've moved this conflict off of the battleground of reason and onto a completely different one. They need to learn that going into a room full of people and threatening their safety and livelihood, using the Republicans as a weapon, will be met with shame and scorn.

[ulysses]

33. how's that shaming angle working out for ya?

[LoZoccolo]

35. Beautifully.

Those that refuse to be shamed, are now shaming themselves in their obstinance!

[ulysses]

36. you forgot the wild, cackling laugh of triumph.

:D

[Jed Dilligan]

39. It's a pretty weird tactic to resort to in an anonymous venue. nt

[ulysses]

40. excellent point!

:rofl:

[LoZoccolo]

43. Actually, I'd say the opposite.

It will reinforce that the idea of voting for Nader is unacceptable to people who could be all over the place. It is scorned across America, and could be scorned by your next door neighbors!

[Jed Dilligan]

44. So you're saying that DU has influence over

what is considered acceptable and unacceptable politically across America?

Are you sure you aren't LocoZoccolo?

[LoZoccolo]

45. No, but it has influence over DUers.

And the blogosphere is increasing in influence; you can tell because of all the people who show up for Dean rallies. I saw a picture today that showed a lot of people at one back in 2003 or 2004; think of the influence they have three or four years later.

[Jed Dilligan]

46. Good points

I would urge you, however, to consider that finger-pointing backward at those who voted for Nader in 2000 can only damage our cause. Many of them regret that decision, and being attacked by Democrats may dilute that regret considerably.

[LoZoccolo]

47. Nader's thinking of running in 2008.

And we must study our past if we want to prevent repeating it.

[Jed Dilligan]

48. Studying the past is not the same

as blaming individuals who are still around. If you want them to absolutely vote for Nader again in 2008, keep on attacking. And I seriously doubt that anyone who is wavering between Green and Dem will be swayed by anti-Nader tirades.

[Jed Dilligan]

38. Except that no one is ashamed when you do it,

they just get pissed off at you.

[TSIAS]

52. The shaming isn't working

I think he should resort to lashings. 1 for mentioning the "duopoly" in American politics.

2 whippings for mentioning all of Nader's past good deeds.

And finally, 10 lashings (or stoning to death) for arguing that Nader isn't responsible for all the evil things Bush has done.

[Jed Dilligan]

53. LOL

We need an icon for that. The frying pan just isn't Royal Navy enough.

:toast: to rum, sodomy, and the lash...

[Totally Committed]

9. "Why do some think it is flamebait to post anti-Nader threads?"

Are you serious? All you need to do to understand COMPLETELY is to take that question and substitute "Clinton" for "Nader". Think about it.

Okay, now you know.

ETA: "BOTH are working for the demise of the Democratic party."

Uh, a lot of us thinnk the DLC and their candidates are doing that same thing. You treat those opinions like they are flaim-bait as well.

Just saying.

TC

[Bonobo]

13. Why don't you go and get a job with Lieberman? I hear he's hiring.

[wyldwolf]

15. Care to elaborate on that? Or will that be just another "prooogresssiivve" hit and run post?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

21. "you're here. You're watching me." Oooooh! Now I'm scared!

Nothing like a threat from a shallow socialist wannabe to make me shake in my boots. So, gonna push me around on the playground now?

:rofl:

[LoZoccolo]

27. No credibility?

Dude he's like one of my favorite posters.

[MadHound]

16. I don't think it's flamebait, in fact I find it funny in a sad, pathetic kind of way

Really now, the Nader haters whine and obcess over what, two percent of the vote(or less) meanwhile ignoring the myriad of very real problems in the Democratic party, If all of the Nader haters would put that energy into solving these problems, guess what, you wouldn't have to worry about Nader. But instead your get yourselfs all into a frothy frenzy over shit that happened seven years ago, getting the historical details wrong in the process, and meanwhile your party continues to go down the crapper. Talk about futility:eyes:

[Forkboy]

17. I see lots of things that I think are causing the demise of the Democratic party.

Almost all self-inflicted.To worry about Nader and his small band of merry men while we're faced with the huge wall of more pressing and far more dangerous concerns is silly.To take it even further and let it become an obvious obsession is past silly and into stupid,and heading quickly for batshit insane.

It's also curious that we get worked up over Nader attacking the Dems when both the left and center attack each other furiously all day every day,causing far more harm that Nader ever will.We eat our own then whine when someone else takes a bite.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Well, because for one thing, Nader's completely irrelevant.

Secondly, it's been shown that Nader really didn't have anything to do with Bush being in the white house.

So what reason would anybody really want to talk about Nader, except to cause trouble?

[Progressive Friend]

32. Bashing Nader encourages sectarianism on the Left

And who benefits from a divided Left in the US???

[LoZoccolo]

34. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. n/t

[SaveElmer]

37. It's not...

Nader is just as much an enemy of the Democratic Party (in terms if intent), as any Republican...

He deserves no quarter here as far as i am concerned...

[TSIAS]

41. Most people here anti-Nader

I think Nader has almost no professed supports left here. However, few people are as obnoxious and irritating on this issue than that particular poster.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. Wyldwolf, you already know the answer to that

Some people don't see Nader as working for the demise of the Democratic Party. They see him as a person whose agenda we need to adopt so we can win back his voters. Other people are here because they only support certain Democrats like Dennis Kucinich, and support third party candidates in other races.

I'm a pretty loyal Democrat who thinks Nader is a self-serving egomaniac, so neither of those are my position.

Interestingly enough a little while back, I explained your position on third party candidates with regards to Cindy Sheehan running against Nancy Pelosi. Many do not understand how someone could consider Cindy Sheehan to be the equivalent of a Republican just because she is running against a Democrat.

[rucky]

49. Every time Foghorn Leghorn beats the sleeping dog with the board...

The dog jumps up howling and chases Foghorn across the yard - not realizing he's staked to a rope until he reaches the white line that shows how far the rope will let the dog go. He crosses the line in midair and snaps back to the other side of the line.

Foghorn laughs every time. It doesn't get old for him.

[LoZoccolo]

50. I think that you may be watching the same cartoon, just over and over again. n/t

[ulysses]

51. possibly. I know *I* am. n/t