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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:13 AM
Original message
There really are bad guys out there ... and bad actor states ... and real threats ......
.... but then ....... there always has been.

Our country will never be truly safe and will never be without external threats.

We really do have a need to maintain some vigilance. Our intelligence services are vital to our internal security. The DoD needs to remain robust and, ideally, the top military in the world.

I don't doubt any of that ...... and I suspect most of you would agree with that.

So that begs the question: How much is enough?

In terms of quantity, I think what we had in the Clinton years was about right. In terms of quality, we need more than we had then. Much more.

Right now, we seem hellbent to stay the biggest security/military spenders on the planet. I think that level of spending is, by several orders of magnitude, too much.

Anyway, we could go on, but this thread is to ask the one essential question, as stated above:

How much is enough?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ya know what? Right now, and for the past few years, WE ARE
THE BAD GUYS.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. While I am in some level of agreement with you ......
.... should I draw from your answer that as long as we're bad guys we have no right or need to defend ourselves?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Nope, we have the biggest and best reasons to have to
defend ourselvs. Just think, what if the families of our victims from Central and South America band together with our victims and/or their families in the Middle East?

There ain't a bomb big enough to avoid the Karma we got coming.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Perhaps the more pertinent point is this...

... the best way to defend yourselves in both the long and short term is to STOP being the bad guys.

The "right" to defend yourself is a messy use of the word "right", it's sufficiently stupid NOT to defend yourself that one may assume that the legal concept of "right" is redundant in this case.

It's more the need thing that matters. Probably the most efficient way of addressing the need to defend oneself is not to piss other people off by treating them in disgustingly inhuman and degrading ways. Then they're less likely to feel motivated to kick you in the teeth in the first place.

Kinda past that point now though, I suppose...
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. That's a good argument .... but to my mind we don't have the luxury of ....
.... thinking that way in anything more than an academic sense. We are where we are, we are thought of as we are thought of. You didn't get us here. I didn't get us here, but here we are nonetheless.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. That doesn't mean we can't get back.

Redemption is the opposite side of corruption. There's no point in simply accepting the current situation as one of stasis, the world doesn't work like that.

If you don't actively pursue redemption, further corruption ensues. Things don't stay they as they are if you avoid redeeming yourself, they just keep getting worse and worse...

this:

We are where we are, we are thought of as we are thought of.

... implies stasis. It's never a situation of stasis, in politics, war, relationships... nothing. If redemption is not sought, the luxury we will eventually find ourselves deprived of is the luxury of thinking we needn't seek redemption.

Experience has taught me that.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. No argument
But that doesn't change reality.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Reality isn't stasis. It can be changed. NT
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Competent Democratic Governments do not feel a need to constantly FEAR-MONGER.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 11:24 AM by ShortnFiery
This is ridiculous: You just do NOT tell the public "I have a gut feeling" as The Head of The NATION'S Homeland Security Department. You just don't do THAT ... unless you wish to keep the citizens SCARED SHITLESS! Any subordinate would be justly fired on the spot as soon as those USELESS, DUMB-ASSED WORDS were uttered.

However, it's just *peachy* for the LEADER of our Homeland Security to fear-monger. After all, The Unitary Executive wants to keep "The American People" afraid and super-compliant to Dear Leader, it's constant Bugga Bugga Bugga "I've got a gut feeling" Boo F**king Hoo! :puke:

It's getting inane and disgusting ... the jig is up MFs! The people are waking up. :eyes:
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. with no credible threat
Especially since there was no specific threat to be made. If we receive some type of intelligence that leads us to believe that an attack is coming then it's fair to alert people. Gut feelings/hunches/hairs standing up on the back of your neck don't count.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I couldn't agree more ........
..... these thugs who have control of our country have gotten where they are through nothing but unsavory methods ..... and that includes intentional fear mongering.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. cold war aside, america has not been seriously threatened since the war of 1812
japan & germany never intended to invade north america. every other "threat" was trumped up or was only a threat to our economic power.

oceans, in fact, do protect us.

along with our agressive militarism & the relative peacefulness of canada & mexico. we are the imperialists.
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. There are other ways to stay on top...
than by just having the biggest military. The need for such a huge military is because we create more problems than we solve with our bullying approach to foreign policy. I hope that whoever lands in the White House in January '09 understands that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. NO country is completely safe from external threats.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 11:37 AM by rucky
But it is clinically paranoid of Congress to spend over 50% of any country's disgretionary budget on defense. - especially for a nation once known as peaceful, with friendly borders.

It is batshit intolerably insane when said budget is bigger than every other country's defense budgets. COMBINED.

How much is enough?

15%(MAX) well-placed dollars, and another 15%(MIN) investing in peace dividends: Diplomacy missions, foreign aid for the world's most vulnerable populations, FAIR trade relationships, distribution and conservation programs to assure necessary natural resources for the years to come.

We'll also need a fearless AG and some principled whistleblowers and covert-ops people to break up the Military-Industrial war racket. After all, these crooks invented modern conservatism as a way to starve the treasury and grease themselves.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thanks for answering the question asked .....
I agree completely that our defense budget is WAY out of proportion.

I'm not sure that your numbers are right, but they sure seem to me more reasonable than what we spend now. If I read you right, where we have 50% spending now, you're suggesting (I think) 30%? I think that might be too high, too, but if it isn't, I can live with it.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. The "peace dividend" would not be managed by the pentagon.
though the military has the infrastructure to carry out many of their humanitarian missions, the money and policy would have to be under a different umbrella. So technically it is "defense" - but a more proactive way of looking at it than the Department of War has trained us to view defense.
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Clinton Administration had a good handle on external threats
...something that gets forgotten these days. Remember, Al-Quaida et.al. were very much on the radar back when we had a legitimate government.

I'd say, what did Clinton spend? Add 50% of that amount to cope with the increased threat caused by the Bushistas and there's your number.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I appreciate your answering my OP question.
I'm not even sure we need to add that much to what Clinton spent. We just need to make sure we're spending smart and we're getting what we pay for.

The DoD budget, it seems to me, has two main components, operations and equipment/systems. Take out the spending for the Iraq war and we're probably not too out of whack with our operational spending.

It is the equipment budgets that are insane. And in my view, they are the easiest to cut and cut substantially ... even drastically. This is not to say we don't buy body armor. It IS to say we don't but missile defense systems and a thousand new jets that would put us three generations ahead of the other guys instead of a perfectly sufficient one generation ahead.
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Remember what Ike said about the MIC?
The Military/Industrial Complex. It has taken over. Thus our wars, and the apportionment of funding. Seems pretty clear.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Quite the sad world we live in
Where agencies such as the CIA, NSA, DARPA, etc, not only need to exist, but are vital to our existence.

The same can be said of any of the other similar agencies around the world, past, present, and future.

The fact that any of them exist is enough for me. Then we all scream when they end up spying on us. Wow, how shocking. Agencies created and maintained to preserve order externally(if such a word exists in a global village), are then used domestically(if such a word exists in a global village) to accomplish the same job.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Those agencies and their precursors are .........
....... as old as man and the need for them is the direct result of the human condition.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. The need for them comes from organization
Primarily agriculture. Along with the need for absolute control, absolute predictability, and the final destruction of any actual diversity(because real diversity creates conflict).

Just in the future, when those agencies acquire greater power and access(data mining as a good example), we can't cry about it. They need that information(or their sister agency in another country needs them so that no laws or technicalities are broken). Just as they need to know what someone in another "country" is doing, they need to know what is going on in "America". Once we're all wired up into the system, it won't have to spy on us, because at some point there won't be a difference, and anything external will no longer exist. It is the human condition.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. prioritizing spending based on real needs and real values
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:34 PM by welshTerrier2
It is very difficult for anyone, let alone individual citizens, to know what is enough and what is too much or too little. I cannot say "let's spend 100 billion or 200 or 300."

My approach is to look at factors that contribute to spending levels and to look at "competing interests" for budget dollars and set relative, rather than absolute, spending levels.

So, first and foremost, we are forced to acknowledge that We the People, regardless of what spending level we might choose, are not represented in the halls of our own government. Eisenhower shined all the light on that we should ever need. The military-industrial-Congressional complex sets the spending levels and the mutual self-interest, selfish really, between politicians seeking campaign dollars and defense contractors seeking profits provides a more-than-reasonable suspicion that spending levels are way too high now and were way too high during the Clinton administration as well. If the script was the same, i.e. the script that sets policy based on narrow self-interest rather than the national interest, little comfort should be gained on this issue between a republican president and a Democratic one.

Secondly, I look at our foreign policy. I see an imperial foreign policy dedicated, as above, to greedy, selfish interests. I see an imperial foreign policy that greatly increases hostility towards the US and greatly weakens our alliances around the world. We've lost our "moral stature" and our ability to influence world events without maximum coercion. This leads to a much, much greater risk to the US from all sorts of world events including military, economic and social considerations. In the ideal, we might have been a nation more able to influence other friendly nations to "be more like us"; as an empire, all we do is alienate.

And thirdly, we cannot assess military/security spending in a vacuum but rather must prioritize it in relation to other pressing demands. The three most pressing demands, in my view, competing for budget dollars are global warming, education and health care. Climate scientists tell us that we must reduce our CO2 output by 80%. Some say 90%. They're talking about now or at least very, very soon. The resources required to achieve even a small fraction of that are overwhelming. Massive infrastructure changes will be needed. We might have to reengineer water systems; relocate whole cities; build mass transit wherever it might be feasible. Staggering, almost unimaginable changes are needed. They'll be incredibly costly.

Looking at global competition, our population lags far behind much of the industrialized world in literacy, math and science. How long will we be able to sustain our commercial and military supremacy should this state of affairs continue. To separate education from "protecting the nation" is to be blind. Not only might we fail to continue to produce the most sophisticated weapons systems as other countries turn out multiples in the numbers of top educated math and science students, but we will continue to lose jobs, and companies, to competing countries. Weakness in national education is a form of gutting America's infrastructure that has led to global dominance for so long. To be sure, merely throwing money at education will not heal all our wounds; to fund education, as we are now, at such impoverished levels is not "an adequate defense" of the nation.

By what sanity can we build yet another weapons system while a child lays dying, his parents unable to afford medical care to get him treatment? Ultimately, I see no logic or humanity that can allow so many Americans to be denied both care and coverage while we continue to build offensive weapons on top of offensive weapons on top of offensive weapons. Again, it seems to me that if our goal is to "have an adequate level of defense", the first measure must be protecting the lives of our citizens. Clearly, if free enterprise is the determinant, our health care infrastructure fails to meet that test. We can argue in many directions about "socialized medicine." We can discuss all sorts of policies that distinguish between one set of underlying values about right and wrong and another. I can think of no standard that tells the poor to die on the sidewalk outside the hospital because funds for treatment are not available. In setting the "right level of defense and security spending", the first dollar goes to save that life. Since that is not the situation today, we need to cut the defense budget.

Based only on the insane meanderings of my own mind, I would like to see us start with a 50% cut in the military budget. I would like to see real campaign finance reform and publically financed campaigns. I would like to see a real progressive party that obliterates the failing remnants of American imperialism and demands a foreign policy that reflects our values as a people rather than the greed of special interests. I would like to see us recognize that our security derives not from killing machines but from how we conduct ourselves in the world. I would like to teach others that our security is heavily dependent on our own infrastructure right here in the US. I would like people to understand that patriotism is not embodied in fighting and war and weapons but rather in caring about each and every American and their fate on this planet. We will never be secure if we continue to follow the path we're on. The US today has a military budget larger than the rest of the world combined. If that hasn't made us "safe", what will? Perhaps we need to look at paths that go beyond the narrowness of spending.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I am compelled to start my reply with a quote ......
..... from you ..... in your reply, above:

Based only on the insane meanderings of my own mind, I would like to see us start with a 50% cut in the military budget. I would like to see real campaign finance reform and publically financed campaigns. I would like to see a real progressive party that obliterates the failing remnants of American imperialism and demands a foreign policy that reflects our values as a people rather than the greed of special interests. I would like to see us recognize that our security derives not from killing machines but from how we conduct ourselves in the world. I would like to teach others that our security is heavily dependent on our own infrastructure right here in the US. I would like people to understand that patriotism is not embodied in fighting and war and weapons but rather in caring about each and every American and their fate on this planet. We will never be secure if we continue to follow the path we're on. The US today has a military budget larger than the rest of the world combined. If that hasn't made us "safe", what will? Perhaps we need to look at paths that go beyond the narrowness of spending.

Your notion of relativity in budgeting is a good one. With that in mind, but looking through equally insane mind's eyes (mine), I'd like to see us start with a defense budget cut greater than 50%. We can probably do very nicely with no new weapons or weapon systems for the next 5 ... 8 ..... 10 years.

I have long felt that virtually all our **reasonable** needs can be met by cutting defense spending, taxing the rich (maybe even to a greater extent than would be the case if we just roll back the bush tax cuts), and taxing the corporations as business entities, not people.

I guess this notion comes from the fact that Clinton had us on a surplus path. We need to get back to that simply as a starting point. After that, we need SERIOUS **leadership** to set the national priorities.

Single Payer Health Care

Reduced Carbon Footprint

Energy Independence

Those are my starters.

Close afoot are:

Public campaign funding

Eliminate corporate personhood & criminalize campaign/political donations
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. "defense budget cut greater than 50%"
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 01:28 PM by welshTerrier2
well, I would have no immediate objection to a greater than 50% cut. I haven't proposed doing so primarily because, at least in the madness of the current climate, I would like to see a transition to greater personnel spending. Troops and the support systems to maintain them are a very costly business.

For me, public campaign financing has to be more than close afoot because I think nothing will change, i.e. nothing can change, until those we elect serve the right priorities for the country rather than those who fund them. It won't solve everything but it seems pretty clear nothing will be solved without it.

As an aside, I've seen the "guns or butter" issue transact itself right here in my little town. Our town is governed by a Town Meeting. All registered voters are able to vote on "warrants" that define line item spending priorities and town laws and policies. I'm sure the same battles that occur here occur in towns all over the country.

At our last Town Meeting, the issue was whether to provide roughly a 10% increase to the school budget. The School Committee, in favor of the increase, argued that programs for special needs students would have to be eliminated if the funding didn't pass. They talked about test scores in our town compared to the rest of the State. They talked about having to lay off teachers and larger class sizes.

Those opposed to the huge tax increase to fund this line item made potent arguments as well. Several years ago, we suffered huge local tax (i.e. property tax) increases to build a new high school, a new community center, a rebuilt Town Hall and a rebuilt town library. Many residents pay local property taxes in excess of $7500 per year. Older residents, many of whom have lived here their entire lives, are being forced to sell their houses and leave town. It's a very real problem. Houses that they built in the 1940's and 1950's for around $10,000 are now valued, for tax assessment purposes, at more than $500,000 with some even higher. On a fixed income, property taxes of $7500 or more become impossible.

So, we're left as good citizens with a choice between helping special needs students get the support they need in the public school system or tossing a bunch of old folks out of their lifetime homes. Maybe if a few of those defense dollars could "trickle down" to the local cities and towns, the madness of such choices wouldn't be necessary. Too many residents in town don't understand the connection. Instead, one side blames the other and the people remain divided. That's just the way the MIC likes it. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

I don't know what to do to awaken the others. Even on DU, especially in the "candidate threads", you are called many harsh things when you challenge a candidate and their supporters to endorse this line of reasoning. "Yeah, who the hell do you think you'll ever elect calling for a 50% cut in the defense budget?" Well, perhaps that's true. It' doesn't make it wrong though.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Without facts and figures to back up my thinking .....
.... I still see a greater than 50% reduction possible. And I am in full agreement that we need to maintain full, complete, unwavering, **real** support our troops. It just occurs to me that the unit costs for some weapons are incredibly high ..... $2.2B for one B2 bomber ...... $5B for a new aircraft carrier, nearly the same for a new boomer sub. Then there are all those missiles and similar systems.

How much is an up-armored Humvee? The best body armor money can buy? Wholesome food?

Yeah ..... I think we can maintain the troops with far less than half our current military budget.

As to your tale of the Town Hall Wars, that's the most unrecognized major issue of all. This bunch of thugs and gangsters knew full well that cutting taxes and then cutting spending would result in higher local taxes. Back then, most local government officials were Democrats. This forced them to put out to their constituents the impossible choices your town faced.
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