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Hillary was as gung-ho to invade Iraq as was Bush. See quote:

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:17 PM
Original message
Hillary was as gung-ho to invade Iraq as was Bush. See quote:
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:18 PM by mistertrickster
In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

THIS IS NOT THE PERSON WE WANT IN THE OVAL OFFICE, FOLKS.

Anybody but Hillary . . . Please, help stop her and her DINO bs.
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hillary ain't no DINO
She is a RIT. (Republican In Training)
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Please stop trying to make baby Jesus cry
GOP = bad
Dem = good
There is nothing else.

Take comfort that the radical left's dislike of Hilldog is nothing close to the hatred that the right has for her.

It might suck for us anti-war activists, but it will suck much more for the right wing.

Please take comfort in that my friend.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
65. It will suck for ALL Dems if she's the nominee. She'll bring out the Republicans
to vote against her.

Just say No.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. No one can beat HRClinton
Trust me when I say her presidency is inevitable. Thompson won't beat her...Ghouliani won't beat her. No one will beat her, dem, indy, brother, or other.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I beg to differ. The pugs will come out in DROVES to vote against her. n/t
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Yes they will
and radical anti-war activist will vote third party.
Still, HRC will win hands down.
20% of all voters will vote their party line.
Most people won't vote at all.
But when it is all said and done, The Clintons will beat Ghouliani, Thompson, or McCain. I don't see anyone that can stop her.

She won't need GOP or leftist votes. She will get the votes from the middle. She will triangulate her way into the white house.

No one can stop her. No Dem, no GOP, no Green.

Please take comfort in the fact that the right will hate this simple truth at least twice as much as liberals/progressives/radicals. While the left might not like HRC, the right really hates her.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. You make my point. Their anger towards her will get them out to vote.
This will be their issue that brings them to the polls.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #74
103. It won't be enough to stop her
Thompson or Ghouliani will never be able to stand the tide of sheeple voting for Hillary. Take courage!

ps- their side always votes unless they are disillusioned. HRC inevitable victory is quite disillusioning...
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
95. Yea, the bush dynasty will beat her.
If anyone thinks the rethugs will allow any democrat to win the next presidential election, they are dreaming. Can you imagine the corporate military-industrial community willing to lose billions of dollars if a dem becomes president. No friggin way! Plans are in the works right now to stop any election in 08'. Be prepared for a bush presidency for life.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. There were several Democrats who said similar things.
Including John Edwards.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. also Howard Dean.
:)
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I recall Howard Dean opposing the Iraq war
and supporting the inspectors finishing their job to make sure Saddam didn't have any capability to re-produce WMDs.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. uh... so? We're not talking about opposition to the war
We're talking about belief in Saddam's WMD programs. That is what the quote in the OP is about.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
49. I always thought Saddam had WMD - we sold them to him
I never thought that war was the best way to "contain" Saddam.

Maurice Hinchey (NYSCD22) and Dennis Kucinich never thought that this "threat" should be resolved through force.

I supported Dean cause he opposed the war ( opposed meaning when the "radicals" took to the street, Kerry+Edwards+Graham+Gephardt+Leiberman all stated that they supported the war. Kucinich+Braun+Dean did not.). Hillary was wrong.

I just hope President H.R.Clinton can keep us out of Iran. Or get us out if Bush draws us in.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
52. Even if you believed Saddam had WMDs, that did not mean we had to invade Iraq
As long as Saddam allowed the inspectors into Iraq and allowed them to do their job, we were suppose to stay out of Iraq.

Dean opposed the invasion, like Al Gore did. Al Gore also believed that Saddam had some WMDs or the ability to reconstitute WMDs if he was ignored. Hillary supported the invasion, even though it was Bush, not Saddam, who expelled the UN weapons inspectors.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. the difference here is...
... Dean and Gore did not have to cast a vote.

Dean, for example, supported the Biden-Lugar amendment which still called for an Iraq invasion.

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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Biden-Lugar was opposed by President Bush
and was tougher on Bush than IWR. The Biden-Lugar amendment required Bush to go back to Congress for approval at least 48 hours BEFORE launching an invasion of Iraq should Saddam refuse to allow UN inspectors into Iraq. Biden-Lugar also required Bush to exhaust all diplomatic solutions. It had tougher benchmarks for Bush to meet before he would launch an invasion. That is why Dean favored the Biden-Lugar amendment.

And regarding votes, nearly two thirds of the Democrats in Congress OPPOSED IWR. Only war hawks and those running for Prez or with future Prez ambitions voted for it.

And Al Gore on Sept 23, 2002, when he gave his famous speech on advising Congress to oppose Bush's warmongering, was still a potential 2004 Prez candidate.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. so? It still called for an invasion. Dean supported invasion.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Dean opposed the invasion based upon lies
Biden-Lugar would have forced Bush to provide evidence to Congress that an invasion of Iraq was needed and was the last resort. It forced Bush to exhaust diplomacy first that and the Congressional scrutiny it endorsed is why Bush fought against the Biden-Lugar amendment.

Dean supported keeping Saddam in check. All of us who supported Dean knew that Saddam was a dictator. Unlike Clinton, we didn't believe that Saddam was a threat to the United States.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Dean said he believed the President. Biden-Luger called for invasion
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Again you take Dean's words out of context
Dean said that he wanted to believe the President because the assumption was that the President would not lie to us in matters as important as war. But Dean also said that the President lied us into a war. Hillary didn't say that.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. nope. Not out of context
MR. RUSSERT: But you yourself believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

DR. DEAN: I did, because the president told us. And I'm inclined to believe presidents in most circumstances. I think most Americans, Democrats or Republicans, ought to believe the president of the United States when he does something as serious as send us to war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4515556/

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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. Yes, you did take Dean's words out of context
Dean's answer to Russert's question was one most Americans had initially. Most Americans did not anticipate that Bush would lie to them about a matter as serious as war. But after it became clear that Bush had lied us into war, Dean came down hard on Bush.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #80
86. nope. Dean said what he said. Completely within context
same old Deaniac BS - somehow you just know what Howard was thinking.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. You are wrong as always
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #86
107. How about YOU provide an ACTUAL quote?
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
106. give me a fucking break. EOM
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hey here's the whole speech and shockingly you misrepresented it.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:22 PM by rinsd
Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of
United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

In 1998, Saddam Hussein pressured the United Nations to lift the sanctions by threatening to stop all cooperation with the inspectors. In an attempt to resolve the situation, the UN, unwisely in my view, agreed to put limits on inspections of designated "sovereign sites" including the so-called presidential palaces, which in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left. As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets.

In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad.

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom?

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal.

But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway.

In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

If we try and fail to get a resolution that simply, but forcefully, calls for Saddam's compliance with unlimited inspections, those who oppose even that will be in an indefensible position. And, we will still have more support and legitimacy than if we insist now on a resolution that includes authorizing military action and other requirements giving some nations superficially legitimate reasons to oppose any Security Council action. They will say we never wanted a resolution at all and that we only support the United Nations when it does exactly what we want.

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it. And according to recent reports, the CIA agrees with this analysis. A world united in sharing the risk at least would make this occurrence less likely and more bearable and would be far more likely to share with us the considerable burden of rebuilding a secure and peaceful post-Saddam Iraq.

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

Thank you, Mr. President.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You mean the OP took one or two lines from a long speech and misrepresented their meaning?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. That is an awful awful speech
George Bush could have given that speech at the exact same time. She was the architect of the Democrats' "tough on Iraq" strategy, with phrases like "we can attack him". Rah, yeah, go get 'em. I don't know how anybody can read that and not hear her preparing to run for President.

Don't even compare it to Kerry's. His speech, and every action taken at the time, was full of caution and concern. Completely different from Hillary's gung ho bullshit. She is a big reason we're in Iraq, BIG.

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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Here's Kerry's speech. Please point out how Clinton's is so gung ho vs it.
October 9, 2002

Mr. KERRY: Mr. President, I thank my good friend from Arizona for his introduction and for his generous comments about the role that Senator Hagel and I have played.

My colleague, Senator Hagel, and I share seats on the Foreign Relations Committee. We have both followed this issue for a long period of time. Obviously, with respect to an issue that might take Americans to war, we deserve time, and there is no more important debate to be had on the floor of the Senate. It is in the greatest traditions of this institution, and I am proud to take part in that debate now.

This is a debate that should be conducted without regard to parties, to politics, to labels. It is a debate that has to come from the gut of each and every Member, and I am confident that it does. I know for Senator Hagel, Senator McCain, and myself, when we pick up the newspapers and read about the residuals of the Vietnam war, there is a particular sensitivity because I do not think any of us feel a residual with respect to the choices we are making now.

I know for myself back in that period of time, even as I protested the war, I wrote that if my Nation was again threatened and Americans made the decision we needed to defend ourselves, I would be among the first to put on a uniform again and go and do that.

We are facing a very different world today than we have ever faced before. September 11 changed a lot, but other things have changed: Globalization, technology, a smaller planet, the difficulties of radical fundamentalism, the crosscurrents of religion and politics. We are living in an age where the dangers are different and they require a different response, different thinking, and different approaches than we have applied in the past.

Most importantly, it is a time when international institutions must rise to the occasion and seek new authority and a new measure of respect.

In approaching the question of this resolution, I wish the timing were different. I wish for the sake of the country we were not here now at this moment. There are legitimate questions about that timing. But none of the underlying realities of the threat, none of the underlying realities of the choices we face are altered because they are, in fact, the same as they were in 1991 when we discovered those weapons when the teams went in, and in 1998 when the teams were kicked out.

With respect to Saddam Hussein and the threat he presents, we must ask ourselves a simple question: Why? Why is Saddam Hussein pursuing weapons that most nations have agreed to limit or give up? Why is Saddam Hussein guilty of breaking his own cease-fire agreement with the international community? Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try, and responsible nations that have them attempt to limit their potential for disaster? Why did Saddam Hussein threaten and provoke? Why does he develop missiles that exceed allowable limits? Why did Saddam Hussein lie and deceive the inspection teams previously? Why did Saddam Hussein not account for all of the weapons of mass destruction which UNSCOM identified? Why is he seeking to develop unmanned airborne vehicles for delivery of biological agents?

Does he do all of these things because he wants to live by international standards of behavior? Because he respects international law? Because he is a nice guy underneath it all and the world should trust him?

It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. It is the total of all of these acts that provided the foundation for the world's determination in 1991 at the end of the gulf war that Saddam Hussein must:

..... unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless underinternational supervision of his chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems ..... unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon-usable material.

Saddam Hussein signed that agreement. Saddam Hussein is in office today because of that agreement. It is the only reason he survived in 1991. In 1991, the world collectively made a judgment that this man should not have weapons of mass destruction. And we are here today in the year 2002 with an uninspected 4-year interval during which time we know through intelligence he not only has kept them, but he continues to grow them.

I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons.

He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation.

The Senate worked to urge action in early 1998. I joined with Senator McCain, Senator Hagel, and other Senators, in a resolution urging the President to ``take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end his weapons of mass destruction program.'' That was 1998 that we thought we needed a more serious response.

Later in the year, Congress enacted legislation declaring Iraq in material, unacceptable breach of its disarmament obligations and urging the President to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance. In fact, had we done so, President Bush could well have taken his office, backed by our sense of urgency about holding Saddam Hussein accountable and, with an international United Nations, backed a multilateral stamp of approval record on a clear demand for the disarmament of Saddam Hussein's Iraq . We could have had that and we would not be here debating this today. But the administration missed an opportunity 2 years ago and particularly a year ago after September 11. They regrettably, and even clumsily, complicated their own case. The events of September 11 created new understanding of the terrorist threat and the degree to which every nation is vulnerable.

That understanding enabled the administration to form a broad and impressive coalition against terrorism. Had the administration tried then to capitalize on this unity of spirit to build a coalition to disarm Iraq , we would not be here in the pressing days before an election, late in this year, debating this now. The administration's decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.

By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration raised doubts about their bona fides on the most legitimate justification for war--that in the post-September 11 world the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable, and his refusal to allow U.N. inspectors to return was in blatant violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power. By casting about in an unfocused, undisciplined, overly public, internal debate for a rationale for war, the administration complicated their case, confused the American public, and compromised America's credibility in the eyes of the world community. By engaging in hasty war talk rather than focusing on the central issue of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the administration placed doubts in the minds of potential allies, particularly in the Middle East, where managing the Arab street is difficult at best.

Against this disarray, it is not surprising that tough questions began to be asked and critics began to emerge.

Indeed over the course of the last 6 weeks some of the strongest and most thoughtful questioning of our Nation's Iraq policy has come from what some observers would say are unlikely sources: Senators like CHUCK HAGEL and DICK LUGAR, former Bush Administration national security experts including Brent Scowcroft and James Baker, and distinguished military voices including General Shalikashvili. They are asking the tough questions which must be answered before--and not after--you commit a nation to a course that may well lead to war. They know from their years of experience, whether on the battlefield as soldiers, in the Senate, or at the highest levels of public diplomacy, that you build the consent of the American people to sustain military confrontation by asking questions, not avoiding them. Criticism and questions do not reflect a lack of patriotism--they demonstrate the strength and core values of our American democracy.

It is love of country, and it is defined by defense of those policies that protect and defend our country.

Writing in the New York Times in early September, I argued that the American people would never accept the legitimacy of this war or give their consent to it unless the administration first presented detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and proved that it had exhausted all other options to protect our national security. I laid out a series of steps that the administration must take for the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq --seek the advice and approval of Congress after laying out the evidence and making the case, and work with our allies to seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement while simultaneously offering Iraq a clear ultimatum: accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise and without condition.

Those of us who have offered questions and criticisms--and there are many in this body and beyond--can take heart in the fact that those questions and those criticisms have had an impact on the debate. They have changed how we may or may not deal with Iraq . The Bush administration began talking about Iraq by suggesting that congressional consultation and authorization for the use of force were not needed. Now they are consulting with Congress and seeking our authorization. The administration began this process walking down a path of unilateralism. Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies. The administration which once seemed entirely disengaged from the United Nations ultimately went to the United Nations and began building international consensus to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. The administration began this process suggesting that the United States might well go to war over Saddam Hussein's failure to return Kuwaiti property. Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

The administration began discussion of Iraq by almost belittling the importance of arms inspections. Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction. That is why arms inspections--and I believe ultimately Saddam's unwillingness to submit to fail-safe inspections--is absolutely critical in building international support for our case to the world.

That is the way in which you make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

I am pleased that the Bush administration has recognized the wisdom of shifting its approach on Iraq . That shift has made it possible, in my judgment, for the Senate to move forward with greater unity, having asked and begun to answer the questions that best defend our troops and protect our national security. The Senate can now make a determination about this resolution and, in this historic vote, help put our country and the world on a course to begin to answer one fundamental question--not whether to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, but how.

I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out.

I have talked about that record. Iraq never fully accounted for the major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of the pre-Gulf war weapons of mass destruction program, nor did the Iraq regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons and production infrastructure.

He has continually failed to meet the obligations imposed by the international community on Iraq at the end of the Persian Gulf the Iraqi regime provide credible proof war to declare and destroy its weapons of mass destruction and delivery systems and to forego the development of nuclear weapons. during the 7 years of weapons inspections, the Iraqi regime repeatedly frustrated the work of the UNSCOM--Special Commission--inspectors, culminating in 1998 in their ouster. Even during the period of inspections, Iraq never fully accounted for major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of its pre-gulf war WMD programs, nor did the Iraqi regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons stockpiles and production infrastructure.

It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Intelligence reports show that Iraq has invested more heavily in its biological weapons programs over the 4 years, with the result that all key aspects of this program--R&D, production and weaponization--are active. Most elements of the program are larger and more advanced than they were before the gulf war. Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives which could bring them to the United States homeland. Since inspectors left, the Iraqi regime has energized its missile program, probably now consisting of a few dozen Scud-type missiles with ranges of 650 to 900 kilometers that could hit Israel, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies in the region. In addition, Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles UAVs, capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf.

Prior to the gulf war, Iraq had an advance nuclear weapons development program. Although UNSCOM and IAEA International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors learned much about Iraq's efforts in this area, Iraq has failed to provide complete information on all aspects of its program. Iraq has maintained its nuclear scientists and technicians as well as sufficient dual-use manufacturing capability to support a reconstituted nuclear weapons program. Iraqi defectors who once worked for Iraq's nuclear weapons establishment have reportedly told American officials that acquiring nuclear weapons is a top priority for Saddam Hussein's regime.

According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within 1 year.

Absent a foreign supplier, it might be longer. There is no question that Saddam Hussein represents a threat. I have heard even my colleagues who oppose the President's resolution say we have to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. They also say we have to force the inspections. And to force the inspections, you have to be prepared to use force.

So the issue is not over the question of whether or not the threat is real, or whether or not people agree there is a threat. It is over what means we will take, and when, in order to try to eliminate it.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.

As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter.

In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

That is why the enforcement mechanism through the United Nations and the reality of the potential of the use of force is so critical to achieve the protection of long-term interests, not just of the United States but of the world, to understand that the dynamic has changed, that we are living in a different status today, that we cannot sit by and be as complacent or even negligent about weapons of mass destruction and proliferation as we have been in the past.

The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and, obviously, as we have said, grow it. These weapons represent an unacceptable threat.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq , and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq . It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq . None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

In recent days, the administration has gone further. They are defining what ``relevant'' U.N. Security Council resolutions mean. When Secretary Powell testified before our committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, on September 26, he was asked what specific U.N. Security Council resolutions the United States would go to war to enforce. His response was clear: the resolutions dealing with weapons of mass destruction and the disarmament of Iraq . In fact, when asked about compliance with other U.N. resolutions which do not deal with weapons of mass destruction, the Secretary said:

The President has not linked authority to go to war to any of those elements.

When asked why the resolution sent by the President to Congress requested authority to enforce all the resolutions with which Iraq had not complied, the Secretary told the committee:

That's the way the resolution is currently worded, but we all know, I think, that the major problem, the offense, what the President is focused on and the danger to us and to the world are the weapons of mass destruction.

In his speech on Monday night, President Bush confirmed what Secretary Powell told the committee. In the clearest presentation to date, the President laid out a strong, comprehensive, and compelling argument why Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are a threat to the United States and the international community. The President said:

Saddam Hussein must disarm himself, or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him.

This statement left no doubt that the casus belli for the United States will be Iraq's failure to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.

I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

The President has challenged the United Nations, as he should, and as all of us in the Senate should, to enforce its own resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq . And his administration is now working aggressively with the Perm 5 members on the Security Council to reach a consensus. As he told the American people Monday night:

America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm.

And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement.

I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.

When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, ``Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable.'' It means ``America speaks with one voice.''

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq , it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize ``imminent''--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize ``yet.'' Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq , and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions.

The definition of purpose circumscribes the authority given to the President to the use of force to disarm Iraq because only Iraq's weapons of mass destruction meet the two criteria laid out in this resolution.

Congressional action on this resolution is not the end of our national debate on how best to disarm Iraq . Nor does it mean we have exhausted all of our peaceful options to achieve this goal. There is much more to be done. The administration must continue its efforts to build support at the United Nations for a new, unfettered, unconditional weapons inspection regime. If we can eliminate the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction through inspections, whenever, wherever, and however we want them, including in palaces--and I am highly skeptical, given the full record, given their past practices, that we can necessarily achieve that--then we have an obligation to try that as the first course of action before we expend American lives in any further effort.

American success in the Persian Gulf war was enhanced by the creation of an international coalition. Our coalition partners picked up the overwhelming burden of the cost of that war. It is imperative that the administration continue to work to multilateralize the current effort against Iraq . If the administration's initiatives at the United Nations are real and sincere, other nations are more likely to invest, to stand behind our efforts to force Iraq to disarm, be it through a new, rigorous, no-nonsense program of inspection, or if necessary, through the use of force. That is the best way to proceed.

The United States, without question, has the military power to enter this conflict unilaterally. But we do need friends. We need logistical support such as bases, command and control centers, overflight rights from allies in the region. And most importantly, we need to be able to successfully wage the war on terror simultaneously. That war on terror depends more than anything else on the sharing of intelligence. That sharing of intelligence depends more than anything else on the cooperation of countries in the region. If we disrupt that, we could disrupt the possibilities of the capacity of that war to be most effectively waged.

I believe the support from the region will come only if they are convinced of the credibility of our arguments and the legitimacy of our mission. The United Nations never has veto power over any measure the United States needs to take to protect our national security. But it is in our interest to try to act with our allies, if at all possible. And that should be because the burden of eliminating the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction should not be ours alone. It should not be the American people's alone.

If in the end these efforts fail, and if in the end we are at war, we will have an obligation, ultimately, to the Iraqi people with whom we are not at war. This is a war against a regime, mostly one man. So other nations in the region and all of us will need to help create an Iraq that is a place and a force for stability and openness in the region. That effort is going to be long term, costly, and not without difficulty, given Iraq's ethnic and religious divisions and history of domestic turbulence. In Afghanistan, the administration has given more lipservice than resources to the rebuilding effort. We cannot allow that to happen in Iraq , and we must be prepared to stay the course over however many years it takes to do it right.

The challenge is great: An administration which made nation building a dirty word needs to develop a comprehensive, Marshall-type plan, if it will meet the challenge. The President needs to give the American people a fairer and fuller, clearer understanding of the magnitude and long-term financial cost of that effort.

The international community's support will be critical because we will not be able to rebuild Iraq singlehandedly. We will lack the credibility and the expertise and the capacity.

It is clear the Senate is about to give the President the authority he has requested sometime in the next days. Whether the President will have to use that authority depends ultimately on Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.

He is the dictator who can end the stalemate simply by following the terms of the agreement which left him in power.

By standing with the President, Congress would demonstrate our Nation is united in its determination to take away that arsenal, and we are affirming the President's right and responsibility to keep the American people safe. One of the lessons I learned from fighting in a very different war, at a different time, is we need the consent of the American people for our mission to be legitimate and sustainable. I do know what it means, as does Senator Hagel, to fight in a war where that consent is lost, where allies are in short supply, where conditions are hostile, and the mission is ill-defined.

That is why I believe so strongly before one American soldier steps foot on Iraqi soil, the American people must understand completely its urgency. They need to know we put our country in the position of ultimate strength and that we have no options, short of war, to eliminate a threat we could not tolerate.

I believe the work we have begun in this Senate, by offering questions, and not blind acquiescence, has helped put our Nation on a responsible course. It has succeeded, certainly, in putting Saddam Hussein on notice that he will be held accountable; but it also has put the administration on notice we will hold them accountable for the means by which we do this.

It is through constant questioning we will stay the course, and that is a course that will ultimately defend our troops and protect our national security.

President Kennedy faced a similar difficult challenge in the days of the Cuban missile crisis. He decided not to proceed, I might add, preemptively. He decided to show the evidence and proceeded through the international institutions. He said at the time:

The path we have chosen is full of hazards, as all paths are ..... The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission.

So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations--an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create--to simply be ignored by this dictator.

I yield the floor.

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Kerry? . . . Kerry . . . oh, yeah, I remember now. He's the one who LOST
to the Worst. Possible. President. we've ever had.

So let's run a candidate Just. Like. Him.

Good plan.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. So who is your candidate that will win the day?
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. I think any candidate that the Dems run can win. EXCEPT HILLARY.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:50 PM by mistertrickster
She'll unite the right and left wing against her. The right-wing hate her guts and will vote against her in droves. It'll be a rallying cry "Stop Hillary," that is perhaps the only thing that could bring the splintered reich-wing together at this point.

She probably won't carry a single Southern state.

Meanwhile, leftist like me are saying why should I bust my hump for a war enabler?

I'm not sure I can even vote for her in her latest incarnation. She's made of plastic these days.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I think mistertrickster believes the left's groupthink.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
108. Didn't you pull this same shit with Kerry? How'd that turn out? EOM
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. But I thought you stood against Hillary based on principle not based on whether she can win
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Dr_Funkenstein Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
53. You're Kinda Right
As a recent defector from the right, I can tell you she is uniting the Republicans...they hate her, and the very idea of her. Republicans have branched off into no-man's land, but they seem to find a common road with her running.

Insider secret: They want her to get the nomination, because Obama will be much more difficult to beat.
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
44. Kerry won, just like Gore did
Granted, he folded like a newspaper in the rain when it came to a recount, but let's not parrot MSM bullshit amongst ourselves.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. It's the overall tone
Hers is gung ho to prove her defense gravitas. His is cautious, to advocate a slower approach, inspections, international cooperation, that he had been speaking about all along. He is specifically clear, "Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies." He continued to maintain that position and advocate a slower approach, and directly opposed Bush in Jan 2003. She never really did. Just a year ago she was still rattling on about success in Iraq, bla bla. She's a finger in the wind and she wanted to be on the side of the big military win.

I blame her for the Democratic Iraq strategy, 100%. I really do.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. "I blame her for the Democratic Iraq strategy, 100%. I really do."
:crazy:
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Agreed. She didn't have the guts to do what was right when it mattered.
And this is our front-runner?!

Crap, no wonder we can't fight our way out of a paper bag.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. You apparently read a different speech than I did.
You mostly "read into it" what you wanted to find.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. No, I took the rose colored glasses off
and read what was there. Hillary calculated that Bush was going to go to war no matter what, figured we'd set up another puppet government and "win", and she wanted to be on board with that rah rah train. When you consider everything she's said since that vote, no matter how obvious it was that Iraq was a disaster, the meaning of that speech is clear. It's revolting that any informed Democrat, who opposes the war, is supporting her.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
73. Bummer
Edited on Wed Jul-18-07 01:39 PM by ProudDad
this means she was too stupid to be able to see through bush's poewr play...

Those of us on the "loonie left" knew bush was lying.

Why didn't she?

Or if she did know he was lying, then she's not smart enough or too damn bloodthirsty to be prez...
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
96. Everything in that speech is FACTUAL.......great speech..thanks for posting
based on the facts known AT THAT TIME. Only the die-hard
anti-war pacifist turn other cheek types would be against
that brilliant speech. Thanks for posting!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. nice try
thanks for playing
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nothing
there indicates she was "gung ho" to invade Iraq. In act, if you read the whole speech, she cautioned against doing so.

Why be dishonest?
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. She "cautioned" against doing it while at the same time supporting
Bush's reasons for doing it.

Dammit. Can't we have a Democratic candidate who just stands up and says--"I'm against something because it's WRONG"?

F*** the nuanced crap.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. "F*** the nuanced crap." Yeah bring on the black and white thinking!
:eyes:
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Damn right. How about we be the party that stands for something this time. nt
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
88. We are he party that stands for something... perhaps just not what YOU stand for.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. She was lied to--remember?
If you attack her for this, you're letting the administration get more mileage out of their original lie.

Score:
Neocons - 2
You - 0
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Lied to or participant in the lying? I can't see much of a difference. nt
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. When did she say that?
That's the biggest problem, her and Bill will not admit the level of lies and cherry-picking that went on before the war. They had the intelligence, as much as Bush did. They didn't tell the truth then, they won't tell the truth now.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. I guess you missed the comments by Pres. Clinton
shortly after the war started and after they found no weapons of mass destruction wherein he said (not a direct quote but close) - I was repeatedly assured during my administration that Iraq still had biological and chemical weapons and was trying to obtain nuclear capability. Since this appears not to be the case he needs to find out what went wrong with the intelligence.

In other words, he had the same bad intelligence.

However, since he is more intelligent and believed in diplomacy and a thoughtful foreign policy he didn't start a preemptive war in an unstable region.

Your setup is false - your conclusions are wrong.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Except that's not true
He was told back in 1998 that Saddam had minimal bio/chem solutions left, so consequently inspections needed to continue. He bombed the country in 1998. There is no way he could have known what was happening in that country after that. The only reason for him to support the lies that we KNEW what was in Iraq is if he supported the war Bush was advocating. It wasn't bad intelligence. It was cherry-picked intelligence to support war. The Clintons were smack in the middle of it. That's the way it happened. He was also the one that said we should give Bush a little pass on his yellow cake booboo. Everything they've done since 2001 has been to set Hillary up to run.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. I forgot - why bother with you.
Facts don't matter - just your version of your truth.

Good luck.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Ignore - it's a handly little tool
Why don't you use it instead of attacking people. Although it's fine with me either way, you've clearly taken the lead from your candidate.
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laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
92. Also, Clinton went on Larry King on the eve of the war and said he
believed Saddam had WMD's. And he's not stupid! Of course he was not privy to the more recent intelligence info!

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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. Bullshit....
She had the same intelligence reports everyone else did.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. No, she had more
Former Presidents have intelligence reports beyond what even the Senate has. She had way more than what most members of Congress even had.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. Let's look at Edwards's floor speech
It's even more gung-ho than Hillary's. From Edwards's floor speech, in the Senate, September 12, 2002:

I believe that Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime represents a clear threat to the United States, to our allies, to our interests around the world, and to the values of freedom and democracy we hold dear.

Saddam has proven his willingness to act irrationally and brutally against his neighbors and against his own people. Iraq's destructive capacity has the potential to throw the entire Middle East into chaos, and poses a mortal threat to our vital ally, Israel.

What's more, the terrorist threat against America is all too clear. Thousands of terrorist operatives around the world would pay anything to get their hands on Saddam's arsenal, and there is every possibility that he could turn his weapons over to these terrorists. No one can doubt that if the terrorists of September 11th had had weapons of mass destruction, they would have used them. On September 12, 2002, we can hardly ignore the terrorist threat, and the serious danger that Saddam would allow his arsenal to be used in aid of terror.

Iraq has continued to develop its arsenal in defiance of the collective will of the international community, as expressed through the United Nations Security Council. It is violating the terms of the cease-fire that ended the Gulf War and ignoring as many as 16 UN Security Council resolutions – including 11 resolutions concerning Iraq's efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction.

These UN resolutions are not unilateral American demands. They involve obligations Iraq has undertaken to the international community. By ignoring them, Saddam Hussein is undermining the credibility of the United Nations, openly violating international law, and making a mockery of the very idea of international collective action which is so important to the United States and our allies.

The time has come for decisive action. With our allies, we must do whatever is necessary to guard against the threat posed by an Iraq armed with weapons of mass destruction, and under the thumb of Saddam Hussein.

The United States must lead an international effort to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein -- and to assure that Iraq fulfills its obligations to the international community.


At the end, he even indirectly links Saddam to 9/11:

The path of confronting Saddam is full of hazards. But the path of inaction is far more dangerous. This week, a week where we remember the sacrifice of thousands of innocent Americans made on 9-11, the choice could not be starker. Had we known that such attacks were imminent, we surely would have used every means at our disposal to prevent them and take out the plotters. We cannot wait for such a terrible event – or, if weapons of mass destruction are used, one far worse – to address the clear and present danger posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq.


http://web.archive.org/web/20021214041757/edwards.senate.gov/statements/20020912_iraq.html
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. True. But Edwards at least had the decency to apologize. nt
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. That and a hearty handshake ...
will certainly console the families of the dead.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. mistertrickster: "Clinton must kiss my ass then grovel at my feet and beg my forgiveness"
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. That's a straw man. You can attack what I say, but don't distort what
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:53 PM by mistertrickster
I say and then attack that . . . She owes the whole country an apology for that vote and that speech.

And the families of the dead on both sides.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
30.  It isn't. because Clinton has done everything EXCEPT say she's sorry. You want to see her beg.
She was ONE Democrat out of many who bought the story. Kerry did. Edwards Did. Hell, even Howard Dean did.

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I don't want her to beg. I want her to say that she was wrong to trust Bush. nt
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. she has - so I guess your jihad against her is over
:shrug:

This morning on NBC's "Today" show, Sen. Clinton was asked about her 2002 vote and offered a slightly evolved answer. "Obviously, if we knew then what we know now, there wouldn't have been a vote," she said in her usual refrain before adding, "and I certainly wouldn't have voted that way."


Wait... I know... she didn't say it EXACTLY how you want her to, so this doesn't count, right? LOL!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. I want her to say he lied
I want her to discuss the Downing Street Memo. I want to know why they wanted to give Bush a pass on the yellow cake. I want to know why she supported "winning" in 2004, making it so damn hard for Kerry to define his position to begin withdrawing troops in 2005. I want to know why it took her so damn long to advocate getting out of Iraq.

I can't understand how people can be so blind to her.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. yeah, you want her to say it the way YOU would, even though she essentially has said that.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. Edwards was on the INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, for Christ's sake!
And he didn't even read the NIE. His mea culpa rings hollow to me.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. it's convenient blaming indigenous to DU
I guess some are impervious to the stench of their own hypocrisy.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. LOL! A fine phrase — "convenient blaming"! NT
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Yup. He's not my first choice either. But at least he could win in '08. nt
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. all the latest polls say Clinton can, too.
:shrug:
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
61. Edwards isn't in office and has nothing to lose.
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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
45. "Now this much is undisputed."
Not if you actually READ the fucking intelligence reports, Hillary.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
58. So was Edwards
Check out his floor speech when you get a chance. This man lied, claiming things we "knew" that were actually in doubt based on evidence already presented.

No Clinton, No Edwards, No Biden.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
60. The inconvenient truth of this charge is that the majority of the American population was, as well.
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draft_mario_cuomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #60
83. Exactly. One candidate's camp keeps attacking those who supported the IWR
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 01:02 AM by draft_mario_cuomo
and now oppose the war. 100 million Americans supported the war and now oppose it. How is attacking one third of the population as naive and idiotic going to play in the general election? I suppose this candidate will sweep the 1/3 who opposed the war in 2002-2003 to win. Oh wait...
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
63. Bill Clinton On CNN: "Saddam has WMD's and he will use them" don't ya'll remember??
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
64. Gore & Obama among others were right on this issue. Hillary was flatly wrong. nt
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Ethelk2044 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
79. I agree. Now she is trying to change her stance. It is a little too late.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
98. Barack was NOT in the US senate at time of IWR vote ....so his stand is
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 08:26 PM by dugggy
irrelevant. He has no official record of his vote.
But Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, John Edwards,
and lots and lots of our senators are on record of
warning dangers of Saddam and his pursuit of WMD's,
Saddam's ACTUAL USE OF WMD's, Saddam's rewarding
$25,000 in cash to families of suicide bombers...etc

So to blame Hillary for IWR vote is the biggest hypocracy.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
66. "...bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations
Edited on Wed Jul-18-07 11:30 AM by oasis
more likely, and therefore, war, less likely" HRC.
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Broke Dad Donating Member (345 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Hillary is still gung ho to invade somewhere or bomb somebody
She said in the New Hampshire debate if there is another terrorist act, she would order a military strike immediately.

Sounds like the guy who couldn't find Bin Laden, so he went after Sadddam. Or Reagan, who invaded Grenada after the Marines were bombed in Lebanon.

As I have said repeatedly in other threads, we do not need another president who needs to bomb something or somebody to prove she or he has balls.

NO and HELL NO to Hillary!
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. Most Americans prefer a president who will take action against terrorists.
It's actually a plus that Hillary's strong on national defense.:think:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. You mean bullyining imperialism, don't you?
Just how long do you think we can afford to maintain a worldwide military presence just to cram economic policies benefitting only the elite down the rest of the world's throat? Can't think of any president who has has actually taken action against real terrorists instead of their scapegoat alternatives. Note that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan remain off the hook, as usual.
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eweaver155 Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
94. There are other ways for America to get things done besides WAR
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 07:36 PM by eweaver155
This war has proven that it does not get you what you want. The people in Iraq and the world over has distanced themselves from the US.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #82
105. Hillary's for keeping America strong. That's why she'll win.
You can bet she won't be making a case for coddling terrorists.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
100. That is a preposterous statement you make, pal
Hillary Clinton is no turn other cheek, take all
the punishment of 911's the jihadists can deliver,
pacifism at all cost, that much is certain. But to
call her a war monger is hyperbole, at its worst.
Borders on slander and hypocracy.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
72. That was CYA
Edited on Wed Jul-18-07 01:45 PM by ProudDad
to cover her inevitable (cowardly) vote for the IWR -- just like nearly all of the other Dems who cast a cowardly vote for the IWR.

There were very few with the courage to reject bush's power play...

I hope she didn't fully believe that crap back then -- that would be a demonstration of stupidity -- I don't want another stupid president...ray-gun and bush II are enough...

I'm certain she doesn't feel that way anymore.

Although her actions do make me doubt that she has the internal fortitude to resist another call for another war from the usual suspects -- the capitalist masters and the military-industrial complex...


The bottom line is that she WAS complicit and hasn't forthrightly recanted. I can forgive "mistakes" that are acknowledged and from which the perpetrator has been rehabilitated. I don't see Hil as having been rehabilitated.

Obama, from his public statements so far doesn't seem to be much better...so she's in good company. One of them will probably be prez in '09 'cause the corporate capitalist masters have decided it so.

It's sad that we won't get a Prez who will be a Peacemaker...



FYI: The heroes in the Senate who voted NO:

23 Senators voted against the resolution: 21 Democrats, 1 Republican, and 1 Independent.

* Daniel Akaka (D-HI)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)
* Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
* Robert Byrd (D-WV)
* Lincoln Chafee (R-RI)
* Jon Corzine (D-NJ)
* Kent Conrad (D-ND)
* Mark Dayton (D-MN)
* Dick Durbin (D-IL)
* Russ Feingold (D-WI)
* Bob Graham (D-FL)
* Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
* Jim Jeffords (I-VT)
* Ted Kennedy (D-MA)
* Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
* Carl Levin (D-MI)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
* Patty Murray (D-WA)
* Jack Reed (D-RI)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-MD)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)
* Paul Wellstone (D-MN)
* Ron Wyden (D-OR)
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
76. It would take us banding together to stop someone
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
78. mistertrickster: your name fits.
you took two lines of a speech out of context. For what purpose I wonder?
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Indy_Dem_Defender Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
81. For all the praise the "Clinton Machine" receives
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 12:08 AM by Indy_Dem_Defender
I don't see it warranted. Here is an individual who borrows from her Husband's resume to build up her own experience. The Iraq invasion is an example where she should of done something using her own and Bill's experience. Hillary was a very close observer during Bill's presidency and would have first hand knowledge of the situation in Iraq with info that 99% of us wouldn't know. Most of the US public at the time was either misinformed with Iraq+911= Terror or had the stance of if there are really WMD's lets stop Saddam before he tries to use them. I don't know if it would have been possible to prevent the invasion from happening, but Hillary speaking up against the invasion would have made an impact by being the voice of reason in the whole mess. At the time Hillary was one of only a few democrats that would be considered a national public figure that could draw media attention, plus she had 8 years of observing, along with 8 years of Bill being president dealing with the Iraq situation for whom she could have consulted, people would have listen, this was her time to shine and she showed no bravery. Heck I firmly believe that if she would have done this and ran in 2004, she would have won. Instead she shifted right with eyes on the white house in 2008 to show she wasn't as polarized to the left as she's made out to be by the mainstream media. Guess what it didn't matter, she still the same old Hillary in conservatives eyes and guess what she pissed off a whole heck of alot of liberals that would have been her base.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
84. So did Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Kerry, and ALL prominent
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 01:13 AM by dugggy
elected democrats at one time or another. May be with the
exception of Kucinich. So, according to you, were they all
gung ho about war with Iraq and therefore they all were
spewing DLC BS? Come on already, stop singaling out HRC.
Just do your home work and check how many signed on to the
Iraq War Resolution.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #84
89. Not Al Gore
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Duh, I know Al Gore was not in senate during IWR but
there are umpteenth tapes of him warning about the
dangers of Saddam and his WMD's. The whole point is,
it is machivellian to single out Hillary Clinton as a
war monger.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Gore said at the time that voting for IWR was wrong
Edited on Thu Jul-19-07 07:35 PM by goodhue
On September 23, 2002, Al Gore gave a major speech at the Commonwealth Club, where he urged Congress to vote against the IWR
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. That is diametrically opposite of what he was saying as Vice President
and when he had direct access to CIA reports.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. The issue in what democrats were saying in 2002-03
When some of them were being rolled by the white house. Gore spoke forcefully about the rule of law and and criticized the preemptive war doctrine as a dangerous departure from norms of international law.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. and that is to Gore's credit, but no one can deny Gore's warnings on record
about the dangers of Saddam left to his own actions and
his petro-dollars, Saddam's actual use of WMD's on his
own people, Saddam's rewarding families of suicide bombers
with $25,000 in cash (lot of money in poor Gaza in the 90's).
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
85. This guy and 22 others got it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF2CLRZLK2E

I sure wish that one of them were running for President.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
87. President Clinton never invaded Iraq
talked a lot of crap about Saddam, but never invaded Iraq.
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dugggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #87
102. No actual foot soldier invasion but BJC did send a few cruise missiles
and US Air Force carried out regular missions in Iraq
during the Clinton administration.
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #87
104. Pres. Clinton never spoke out against the Iraq War in 2002. nt
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