Why should Dean quit if he wins delegates & comes in second in Wisconsin?

[stickdog]

If that happens, Dean will have come in second in Michigan, Washington, Wisconsin, Maine and Nevada. Dean came in third in Arizona, Iowa, Missouri, New Mexico, DC and North Dakota. That's 11 top 3 finishes out of 16, compared to 10 for Edwards (regardless of the 2-3 finish in WI).

Out of 15 contests so far, Dean has won delegates in 8 states. Edwards has won delegates in 7 states.

Out of 15 contests so far, Dean has beaten Edwards head to head 8 times. Edwards has beaten Dean head to head 7 times.

Dean has won 91 delegates while Edwards has won 139. Outside of the South, Dean has won 88 delegates, while Edwards has won 50.

Edwards has won exactly ONE state -- his home state. Anybody here think Dean couldn't win VT if he campaigned as hard there as Edwards did in South Carolina?

IMHO, Wisconsin will determine who is in second place in this race going into Super Tuesday. So where is the pressure for Edwards to drop out of the race if he loses to Dean on Tuesday?

[andym]

1. He should stay in regardless of finish

He should stay in regardless of finish.

Everone should stay for the best interests of the party.

[yellowdawgdem]

21. By staying in, Dean shows he's not a pushover /nt

[eileen_d]

2. Dean should make his own decisions about when to drop out

But I think the key question for Dean to ask himself is not "why should I drop out" but "why should I stay in"? There are certainly valid answers to the latter question, and that's what he should focus on IMO.

[bigwillq]

3. I totally agree with your observations

While it looks like Kerry will likely be the nominee, I want an alternative. It's still early in the race and Kerry could always slip up. If he does I want another candidate to be ready to pick up the slack and run against the shrub. I'm hoping Dean will be that candidate

[jpgray]

4. Dean can do whatever he wants to do (nt)

[Rowdyboy]

5. John Edward's "home state" is indeed South Carolina

since he was born there, but he has never held office there-only in North Carolina.

Howard Dean's "home state" is New York, but he has never held office there, only in Vermont.

Your whole final point is based on a fallacy, unless you're implying that Dean will win New York by the same margin that Edwards took South Carolina...

[stickdog]

11. Switch out NY & SC on the primary calendar, and Dean would have won.

I concede your quibble.

However, my main point remains the same. Why the intense pressure on ONLY Dean to quit?

Where is the pressure on Edwards? Kucinich? Sharpton?

Why are they exempt?

[Rowdyboy]

15. I personally think there should be no pressure on Dean or anyone

else to get out of the primary race. As long as you can fund your campaign-have at it until someone hits 50%+1 delegates.

Once the nominee has it wrapped up, its over.

[janx]

6. Stickdog, I just did an archive search and found that

people have been talking about Dean's quitting since before the end of January.

That is literally how long it has been going on. It is nothing short of demoralizing, and I cannot believe we have put up with it for as long as we have.

[patricia92243]

7. Democrats get free publicity as long as we DON"T name a nominee. None of

the people should have dropped out til the convention. The more peoplke - the more free publicity and the more people telling the truth about Bush.

[arwalden]

10. But The Money Spent Fighting Bush Is Better Spent...

compared to fighting each other.

I see your point about "free" publicity... but what is the REAL cost of all the free publicity?

-- Allen

[arwalden]

8. Hope... It's Not Just A Town In Arkansas, Is It?

I think the writing is on the wall on this one. I see a distinct pattern and it looks like this just isn't Dean's time.

-- Allen

[Tinoire]

9. Because his presence is an inconvenience to the coronation

and in their desperate mad-dash to get to it they can't wait. Once again, another invasion with all the stealth of a stampeding herd of elephants.

[The Magistrate]

22. That Is Not The Reason, Ma'am

If Gov. Dean is going to campaign by floating trial balloons for the right that they intend to make use of in the general election, his actions serve only to damage the prospects of victory in November, and strengthen the hand of the criminals of the '00 Coup. If he were to campaign without use of such distortions no one would have any objection. But if his attack lines continue to overlap the advertising campaigns of the right, already begun, he must be considered nothing more than a stalking horse for reaction.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[stickdog]

23. What "trial balloons for the right" has Dean floated?

How do they compare to Kerry's proclamation that Dean was irresponsible to suggest that Hussein's capture did not make Americans any safer?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. I'd Say Dean Calling Kerry as Corrupt as Bush Is Far Worse

Far worse than a foreign policy difference that Dean was castigated quite widely for, by many more than Kerry.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

28. Indeed

and Dean was correct in his belief that capturing Saddam would not make America any safer. Too many people, who had too much to gain from lying about this most important matter. There were many Democrats eager to trash Howard Dean on matters of national security. I should add that most of these Democrats could not tell lies from truth when it came to deciding on whether to invade Iraq. Instead, they just kow towed to Republican pressure.

Had the primary turned out diferently would these attacks not have weakened Howard Dean going into the General Election? When Dean supporters pointed this out did any of the other candidates supporters listen? Why should we. We were told if we could not stand the heat we should get out of the kitchen. I suggest y'all take you own advice on this matter.

Regarding the questions about Kerry's "assistance" of campaign contributers: Whatever makes you think the Republicans have already been there? Smearing Democrats with special interest allegations is an old, and well worn path for the Republicans. I seem to remember that, round the time the Enron scandal broke, the public thought it was the Democrats who had taken to most from those scallywags. The Republican's will smear any Democrat with special interest allegations. They will do it not just to smear our candidates but to keep our candidates from prying into their own sordid history of corruption.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Bottom Line Is That Once Votes Were Cast, Your Guy Did Poorly

The reality now is that Kerry is the prohibitive favorite for the nomination, and so irresponsible, over-the-top attacks need to stop.

And I disagree with Dean's statement about Saddam's capture not making us any safer. I think it was a foolish thing to say, and I think it's clear that it did make us at least incrementally safer.

Obviously, YMMV.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

34. How did Saddam's capture make us safer

I was not disputing the right to John Kerry's success just the double standards for some who support him. What is good for the goose is most certainly acceptable for the gander.

How did the capture of Saddam make America, and by extension Americans, safer?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

36. Saddam Being at Large Emboldened Iraqi Resistance

There is no question about that among any serious military analyst or scholar. His capture weakened the resistance, which in turn makes American troops in that part of the world -- at least -- safer. To the extent a stable Iraq is good for the world and the US, I think it also makes America safer as a whole, although that is much more attenuated than the immediate situation in Iraq.

No one is saying his capture would END the resistance. No one is saying the resistance is going to be a bed of roses from here on out.

But it sure as hell is better now that Saddam has been captured.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

43. I disagree

Would these be the same military analysits who said the people of Iraq would welcome us with open arms? Or the ones who said Saddam had a full arsenal of chemical and biologica munitions? Or the ones who thought Al-Queda was but part of Saddam's devious plan to conquer America?

All the capture of Saddam did was allow Ba'ath party activists to form alliances with religious extreemists. They were forbidden, by Saddam, to have any contact with the Jihadis. Now they have no such restraint. I have not noticed any redution in the number of troops maimed or killed since Saddam was captured. The political situation, in Iraq, looks to be degenerating into civil war rather than stabalizing.

I do not see any evidence of your belief, sorry.

Putting the Iraq's corportate looters, and their adminstration cohorts, in jail would do far more to make America and her people safer than capturing Saddam, IMHO.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. Again, No One Is Saying Saddam's Capture Is the End-All and Be-All

Of course, there are many other factors that would make America safer than Saddam's capture. No one is claiming otherwise.

But it is simply false, not to mention electorally foolhardy, to claim that Saddam's capture does not make us safer at all. It rings hollow and false to the vast majority of Americans, and it was a foolish thing for Dean to say.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

54. It is the truth

and lies like that ( Saddam's capture makes us safer ) are the sort of lies that lose wars. Even the best trained, best equiped military can be brought low by the worst leadership.

We are periously close to losing our influence in the Middle East because of the incompetence. With our society's dependence on fossil fuels such as it is, this is influence we can ill afford to loose.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

65. See Post #63 (eom)

DTH

[stickdog]

45. "There is no question about that among any serious military analyst."

1) Bullshit.

2) Even if it were true, capturing Saddam didn't make Americans in America any safer.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. I Think Most Americans Care About the Well-Being of Our Soldiers in Iraq

And you're free to think it bullshit if you want; history proves you wrong, however.

DTH

[stickdog]

55. History proves me right. Resistance in Iraq is stronger than ever, and

the threat of terrorism in the US is also.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

66. See Post #63 (eom)

DTH

[PassingFair]

39. Bushit!

Saddam out. Son's bullet ridden bodies/heads paraded around like barbarian trophies. AlQueda operatives flooding in. More deaths everyday. Women afraid to venture out. Women afraid of fundie theocratic rule. If you feel incrementally safer, good for you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Sorry, But That's the Reality

Things would be even worse if Saddam was still at large right now. I advise a study of military history, assuming such would not be anathema to you.

DTH

[stickdog]

48. Bullshit. Hussein threatened NOBODY, very little resistance

has been fought in his name, and it hasn't slowed since he was captured.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. As Many Have Pointed Out to Dean Before

Slowing the increase of growth is, for all intents and purposes, a cut.

DTH

[stickdog]

58. You are clearly grasping at straws here.

Kerry lied to Americans to prop up Bush. Hussein's capture did nothing to make Americans safer. Nothing.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

63. Repetition Does Not Make It True

We will have to agree to disagree.

I'll take the views of military experts, the American people, and experienced foreign policy gurus such as Kerry and Clark, over the uneducated, novice and politically foolish views of Howard Dean any day, however.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

71. I would be greatfull if you could site evidence

rather than just cheap invective. I have cited the reasons I believe Saddam's capture does not make American's safer. I would be gratefull if you could justify your remarks.

[stickdog]

41. Kerry sucks as a candidate vs. Bush & he has far less than 1/4 of the

delegates he needs to win the nomination.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. Kerry Has It Locked Up

You'll see tomorrow, and you'll see on Super Tuesday.

He is beating Bush in polls right now, and although we're a long way from November, that is a heartening sign.

Those same polls show Bush beating Dean quite handily.

The truth can be a bitter pill, I know.

DTH

[stickdog]

51. If that's your belief, then why do you care about what Dean does?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. Because by Making Irresponsible, Over-the-Top Attacks Against Kerry

Dean is serving the enemy's purposes, and is showing himself to be an exceedingly harmful and disloyal Democrat, IMO.

DTH

[stickdog]

59. What irresposible, over-the-top attacks? I keep hearing ABOUT them,

but I never hear what they are.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

64. Calling Kerry Corrupt Is Over-the-Top

And it is certainly untrue, especially when compared to Bush. Dean is doing the enemy's work, and he should be ashamed of himself.

DTH

[stickdog]

69. Link? (nt)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

70. See My Old Post #40 for the Link (eom)

DTH

[stickdog]

38. Cite where Dean called Kerry "as corrupt as Bush."

Plus, you are missing the point.

When Dean says Bush is corrupt, he is hurting Bush.

When Kerry says Hussein's capture made Americans safer, he's lying to help Bush!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. I'm Not Missing Any Point

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=360689

When Dean calls Kerry corrupt, he is hurting Kerry, and engaging in reprehensible conduct that no Democrat should do.

Kerry's comment is frankly true. See my response to RogueTrooper.

DTH

[stickdog]

60. Dean's comments about Kerry are frankly true. Meanwhile, Kerry lied

about Hussein's capture to prop up Bush's bullshit war.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

68. See Posts #63 and #64 (eom)

DTH

[dionysus]

31. Don't accuse Dean of working for the right wingers, Sir.

Fact is, Kerry IS Bush -Lite, having voted for the bulk of his legislation.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. Kerry Has an Incredibly Liberal Voting Record

To call him Bush-lite is highly inaccurate.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

35. How about Bush enabler then

after all he managed to vote for a substaintial chunk of Bush's signature legislation.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. He Voted Against the Tax Cuts

IWR has been rehashed to death here, so I'll let that one go. Patriot Act was approved by everyone, and it was politically infeasible for anyone to object at that particular moment in time.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

47. No Child Left Behind

he supported that too.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. If NCLB Had Been Fully-Funded, It Would Look Very Different

From what it does right now.

DTH

[RogueTrooper]

57. I disagree

NCLB would be a dog even were it a well funded dog. It would be nothing more than throwing bad money after good. Ted Kennedy's only aim was to keep vouchers out of the bill ( and for that I salute him ) but it is still a dog of a bill.

[DemPopulist]

56. NCLB was a Kennedy bill

Is TK a Bush-enabler? :shrug:

[PassingFair]

62. Apparently

Kerry has found it "politically infeasible" to object numerous times over the last three years. I will vote for the dishrag, but he can get his money from the corporate interests he serves so well. In the meantime, an Independent Party is starting to look real good to me for 08. The dems are compromised.

[lojasmo]

67. WRONG

Kerry abstained from the tax cut vote.

Voted FOR beating up on THE WRONG COUNTRY!!

patriot act is a piece of detrius, and not everybody voted for it, either.

Kerry has been a tool of this administration.

Dean should stay in, and continue to point out Kerry's recent record of capitulation to the neocon agenda.

[w13rd0]

12. There is no reason Dean should drop out...

...there are candidates with far less support staying in, why shouldn't he? John Kerry does not speak for me. When all the other Democrats were rolling around on their backs, saying 2004 was a "throwaway election cycle", asking Bush to rub their tummies, Dean was standing up. Furthermore, he has a record of REAL accomplishment, not just empty platitudes.

Dean stood up for me, I will continue to stand up for him. And I and plenty of the people that supported his campaign don't want him to quit. The jackasses calling for him to quit didn't support his candidacy anyway, and did everything they could (Stop-Dean) to cripple him, including having one of their own try and "take him out" in what amounted to a political suicide attack (yes, I'm referring to Gephardt). So pardon me, but fuck John Kerry and his arrogant sense of entitlement.

[KC21304]

13. Some of us have NEVER called for anyone to drop out .

And we never told anyone else hasta lavesta, or other such stuff a few days before the Iowa primary, as I was told by certain other candidate's supporters who shall remain nameless. But I say, let's concentrate on Bush and the more the merrier.

[corporatewhore]

14. Becuase we all must bow down to kerry

[DFLforever]

16. Party is scared about what will happen as they move back to the right

and don't want Dean around as an alternative to the Bush lite agenda they and their nominee are getting ready to re-embrace.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42676-2004Feb14?language=printer

[ShaneGR]

17. If he finishes 2nd he should stay in, but if he finishes 3rd

Hell, what do you think if he finishes 3rd?

[w13rd0]

18. I don't care if he finishes 10th...

...I want him to stay in. Why is the media making a big issue trying to get Dean to drop out, but saying not a word about the other candidates?

I'll tell you why, for the same reasons they went rabid on him:

statement on media consolidation doing a disservice to democracy
statement about Greenspan

On to Boston, the tea is in the f'n harbor...

[mzmolly]

19. Exactly right ... He shouldn't quit.

;)

[HuskerDem]

20. If Dean gets delegates and a strong second he should stay in..............

IF that's what he wants to do and believes that it's the right thing for him and his campaign.

[Cuban_Liberal]

24. Dr. Dean will do whatever is right.

It is his decision to make, and we should trust him to make the correct one.

[jeter]

25. What will he gain?

Kerry will still win the majority of delegates. He will almost certainly have enough to win on a first ballot.

If Dean were smart he would use whatever leverage he has left to negotiate with Kerry:

a) a prime spot at the convention.

b) a hand in some policy proposals for our party platform.

c) an opinion on how the campaign against Bush should be run.

[Beaker]

27. Because he said that he would.

He made the rule- he has to play by it.

otherwise he loses all credibility and 'honor'.

he's still young, and 2008 is only 4 years away.

[candy331]

30. And the Dean goes on

if he so chooses. Some people will get it by November.

[Beaker]

32. Hopefully Dean will "get it" by then too...

but it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't.

[stickdog]

61. Correction: Dean has beaten Edwards in 9 of 16 races so far. (nt)

[union_maid]

72. Dean WAS using the same kind of rhetoric that Nader used

"Lesser of two evils". That's become a buzzword type phrase since 2000 and Nader. It hurt us. It helped to give us Bush and that's undeniable. Judging by DU it still seems to be effective. The Republicans have already sent out video based largely on Dean's assertions about Kerry. Some are probably afraid that Kerry's going to be Willie Hortoned by Dean, assuming he winds up as the candidate. I don't think it's going to happen, personally. I think that Kerry is a much stronger presence than Dukakis for one thing. I also think he's not so dumb as to make "Belgian endive" type remarks which is the kind of thing that Dukakis did to hurt himself.

[TexasSissy]

73. For same reason Clark dropped out, even tho he was ahead of Dean.

No chance of winning. Read my lips, Mr. Dean....you have no chance. It may be right, it may be wrong, it may be sad to some (as it was sad to me to see Clark go), but when it's over, it's over.

[stickdog]

74. It's not over til it's over. (nt)