NIce enough, Harry ..... I guess ........

[Stinky The Clown]

..... Ah hell ...... I'm just not real happy about the outcome of the all nighter you guys pulled.

The facts are the Democrats called for it and the Republicans got the vote they wanted.

Yeah, Harry, you yanked the entire Defense Bill thereby halting all debate and giving nothing to the White House or the DoD .... for now.

But that could have been done yesterday without all the drama. The fact is, we kinda look a little silly.

Now before you get pissed at *me*, hear me out. A one night all nighter that did not see its objective met, in advance of a four week vacation, is, in fact, a stunt. Had you held held the Senate in session for days on end until you got the desired result, it would have been a tough, effective tactic. But this one nighter? Yup .... a stunt.

And about that four week vacation? How about we just say, fuck that, we ain't leaving town until we get what we want and we're going to put the Senate on 24/7 operation, with late night quorum calls, until we get what we want. That would be tough.

I like you, Harry. I do. I've cheered you on, I've cheered for you, and I've defended you. And I will again. But this little episode? Sorry, Harry, but it just plain sucks.

All too often, when I let it be known that I'm a Democrat (and I am **anything** but shy about doing that!) I instantly become a wuss and whistle ass by association.

I'm tired of that.

Be tough, Harry. You know how to do that. You have a history of being a tough guy. Not some macho poseur, but a genuine tough guy.

Today was, in the end, okay I suppose. But no one's going to see it that way. The tabling of the bill, while meritorious, is a technicality that Joe Sixpack will never in a million years understand. But even that could have just been done in regular session.

So at the end, all we have is a 'stunt', a failed tactic, and you and me .... and all the other Dems ..... looking like wusses and whistle asses.

Ya gotta do more, Harry. Its a tough job. But you KNOW you can do it.

Now get back in there and go for their glass chin.

[ClassWarrior]

1. "Jeff Farais said the time was three-fourteeennn..."

"...but the clock in my Prius said it was three-fifteeennn."

NGU.

[rpannier]

2. Disagree

I don't consider it a stunt.
The purpose is to force these Senators to go on the record.

I don't think the Democrats looked like 'wussies and whistle asses' (But if you feel like that then maybe you can have s hirt made that says "I look like a wuss and whistle ass"

[Stinky The Clown]

3. You can discuss things or you can fling ........

... whatever it is you're flinging.

Am I to apologize for feeling what I feel?

They didn't really force anyone to go on record. They never got to vote.

[NYC Liberal]

4. The point of the all-nighter was to force them to go on record.

Reid then called for a vote on cloture, which obviously failed. But then he yanked the Defense Authorization bill.

He's playing hardball, this is EXACTLY what he and the Dems should be doing.

Now the Repukes can't go back on the RECORD.

[blondeatlast]

5. Plus it paints the RRRs as both hawkish and obstructionist.

I respect ya, Sinky, but I think you're missing an terrific PR move here.

[NYC Liberal]

6. Right, now the Dems can say,

"Look, we could end all of this nonsense if Republicans would just let us have an up-or-down vote. The reason this is going on so long isn't because of us, it's because of THEIR filibuster!"

Also gives us a chance to rub that "upperdown-vote" shit in their faces.

[blondeatlast]

7. Stinky, I offer this from TPM via GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1372439

[ClassWarrior]

9. "The benefit for the Democrats..."

"...of the July push, even the unsuccessful one, has been to redefine the debate over the war."

And a lot of DUers may not realize it, but that's MAJOR. The earth is beginning to shift under Washington.

Thank you Sen. Reid.

NGU.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Thanks for that. It is an excellent summation of the fine points ......

.... and it is a good strategy and may well work.

But my whole point is not the fine points of this strategy as so well stated in that thread. It is the general public perception of what happened last night. That perception can be summed up as:

1 - The Dems pulled a 'stunt'.

2 - The Repubs prevailed by getting the outcome they wanted.

Now, that gross oversimplification leaves a lot of the calculus out of the equation. But that is all inside baseball nuance. The public will not get it. The fact is, our 'news' media is what it is and we have to deal with it as it is not as we wish it were.

What I said in my OP was 'nice enough ...... I guess.'

The Dems did accomplish something, but it seems to me they could have accomplished a whole lot more.

The country is fed up with the war, with president Gin Blossom, and ...... tada ... with Congress. Imagine how (the Democratic-led) Congress's stature would increase if they suddenly got REAL tough and stayed in session 24/7 until they got the bill they wanted. Imagine how much cheering there would be if the Senate simply canceled all recesses and vowed to stay in DC and, after winning this little dust up with the obstructionist GOP, went back and retraced their several failed legislative efforts and moved new legislative efforts forward.

Instead, we have assholes like McConnell cluck-clucking away on teevee making a credible argument that controversial Senate bills "always" require 60 votes. Never mind that it was *them* who started with that 'upperdownvote' shit way back when. It would have been far better to have them whining about our guys depriving them of time with their constituents.

So, overall, it isn't that I'm saying Harry did anything that was flat wrong ..... instead, I'm saying I think it could have been done better and with a far greater PR punch.

I also think that keeping 'em in session endlessly might just force enough fatigue in the GOP ranks to bring some of the bigger chickenshits to vote our way and cause us to win the whole debate months sooner than Harry's tactic might.

[ClassWarrior]

16. Some Progressives worry too much about "what will they think of us"...

...when they should worry about doing the right thing. Because when we do the right thing, they will think highly of us.

Lakoff teaches that when you're strong on your core values and true to your base, the majority will admire your strength and truth.

NGU.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. You miss my point ......... on two counts

First, what they think about us in this case actually *does* matter. Perception is reality and this sort of activity plays to the American masses.

Second, being true to the antiwar core value holds, I should think, that we do whatever is needed to end the war. Had we just kept at it and, using our majority and control of the Senate, just wear them down until they come around to our way of thinking.

I think it was in 98 (not sure) when the Dems got snookered with exactly this tactic. The Repubs kept the House in session until they got what they wanted (which was a tax cut).

[KoKo]

13. I read that TPM post earlier. It didn't make me feel better. But thanks...n/t

[AndyA]

8. I think Reid should tell the Senators to cancel their vacations, the Senate

will be in session. The troops they sent to Iraq aren't getting any vacations, and their tour of duty has recently been extended, too, so why should the Senate take any time off, especially considering they've got such a backlog of votes needed, each no doubt taking up time for debate, etc.

Cancel the August vacations and keep 'em at work, Harry. THAT would send a strong message to the GOP, and to the American people, who are very unhappy with you and yours right now.

No more staged photo ops, Harry. Get to work.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. That's pretty much my point ......

thanks!

[blondeatlast]

15. I wonder if that just may be the plan.

It seems to me that what happened today would be a good set-up for just that tactic.

I hope, anyway.

[KoKo]

12. Well....the M$M yawned at all that Democratic effort....but then they yawn at everything Dem...

but...I have to agree with you. All reports of "Harry the Boxer" reminds me of why I never liked boxing. It's too short and only goes for the "rope a dope" or "knock out punch" and then it's over. Nothing more to see there. I think that's why I've always had a "problem with Harry." And...I've tried to believe in him....but sadly his voice always seems to show his inner character even if Bob Geiger (who's an otherwise excellent reporter) seems to feel that "whiney, whisper" denotes the Srength of Mohammad Ali.... I've been waiting...and just don't ever see it. :-(

[MasonJar]

14. He did the right thing; now the Pugs are on record with their pro-war

and pro-Bush jargon. The dems got to stand tall and fight against the rhetoric of the GOPers.

[TwilightGardener]

18. Repubs wanted a filibuster on this? Then Harry said, fine--you do it

the old-fashioned way. No taking a scheduled cloture vote that quickly comes and goes, shoots down the amendment, and then the matter gets a short blurb in the paper and goes away. Not on ending the war--it's the most important issue we're facing, but the obstructionists want to obstruct without being detected. "Moderate" Repub Senators want to shoot their mouths off about a "change in course" without actually voting on a change of course. The time is now to call attention to what is going on--the fact is, the Levin-Reed amendment could have ended the war, and a bipartisan MAJORITY most likely would have voted for it. The Webb-Hagel amendment being shot down was a travesty, a slap in the face of our soldiers. The Repub Senators will not allow the war to end, despite the pretty talk from gutless "statesmen" like Lugar, Warner, Voinovich.

[Heath Hatcher]

19. I think it was a gutsy move by Reid

And I love it, it gets the GOP fatigued and on the record. I can find it funny when you got guys like Warner, Lugar and Voinovich call for a change in policy in Iraq but have no solution for it but to adopt more recomindations of Baker-Hamiliton, just more retheric by the GOP to try to play it both ways: say were not liking the directions the war is going but at the same time not advocating a pullout.

But I think if Reid and co. want to end the war and try to presuade the moderate GOPers to break ranks on the war, the only way to do is stay in for the august. Point and simple.

[shireen]

20. love reading your posts! :-) nt

[Hippo_Tron]

21. They should've just inserted the amendment in committee

Or passed it in the House. That way the GOP would have to filibuster the entire defense bill.

Pulling the pentagon budget isn't going to last. Republicans will scream that Democrats hate our troops and Reid will put the bill back on the table. Reid should've made them filibuster the entire Pentagon budget so that we could bombard the air waves with ads saying that Republicans are not funding the troops.

[rocktivity]

22. I prefer token resistance to none at all.

Of course Reid anticipated that the vote could fail. But now he has the Rethugs on record, and more important, a backdoor method for defunding the occupation. He lost the war, if you'll pardon the expresssion, but he did win a strategically pivotal battle.

And you're absolutely right about Reid being a genuine tough guy. He loves to play the role of the low-key nerdy milquetoast, but he suckerpunches you by doing the right thing when it really REALLY counts. I noticed that about him right away--he's never had me fooled.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Yeah ... token resisyence is better than none ...... but tough, serious .....

...... resistance is better than that .......... and more likely to work.