I figured out why I don't like Hillary.

[leftyladyfrommo]

This has been bothering me because I am a real supporter of women. But I just haven't ever taken to Hillary. Now part of that is because I live in the Midwest and I haven't had much of an opportunity to even hear what Hillary is about. She never seems to be where I am listening - like on Lehrer in the evenings.

But here it is and I am probably going to just get killed for this - but at least I am aware of why I feel the way I do.

I have been unfortunate enough to have worked for some really awful women. Its almost like they took everything good about women and threw it in the trash. And then took the very worst traits of business people and made them their personalities. I can't really explain that. But simply getting rid of anyone who is not completely insinc with you is really not a healthy way to manage. And the getting rid of seems to always be by subterfuge. If you have ever run into this you will recognize what I'm saying immediately.

That said - there are some really bad men managers out there, too. But the awful women managers I've run into have affected me a lot more than the men.

And Hillary reminds me of those women. And I can't seem to get beyond that. And I don't think I'm even giving her a fair shake.

[Larkspur]

1. It's Hillary's job to convince you to support/vote for her

It's not your job to force your self to like/support Hillary.

If you feel the way you do about Hillary, then she hasn't succeeded in winning your vote.

[HughBeaumont]

6. Right. That's not what the daily poll-parrots think, though.

"Accept it. Inevitability is your friend. She IS our candidate. Be happy. Push the needle in and sing along . . ."

I'm sorry, but I don't WANT more of the same. The parrots need to give me ONE reason why a Hillary presidency would be any different. She's given me NO evidence through her statements and speeches that the things I mentioned will change. The next Dem candidate will be better for the environment and science, that's a given (getting corporations to go ALONG with your vision . . . weeell, that may not be so easy). But are they going to do something about ending the war and injecting a modicum of FAIRNESS into the economy? These issues also matter tremendously.

[tblue37]

40. If one reason is enough, consider the Supreme Court

appointments the next president will make. There will be at least two such appointments, and quite possibly three. We can't have any more Roberts and Alito clones.

Vote for and work hard for your favorite in the primaries, but please support whichever candidate wins the nomination.

[msongs]

2. why do you want to get rid of women who are "not completely in sinc (sic) with you" ? nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

8. Some women are just so threatened by other women that they

can't stand to have them around.

They tend to get along well with men but not with other women - especially women who are competent.

Just like I have worked with men who get along fine with women but not with other men.

[trueblue2007]

26. I'm just GLAD most people aren't like the Original Poster!!!

I think the original posters views are in the minority. Ms. Clinton is coming out ALL OVER in the news. I hear all kinds of comments that she has made. She is all over CNN, MSNBC etc.

[Orangepeel]

105. that doesn't describe Hillary at all

just a few weeks ago, there was a big uproar in the main stream press because a magazine (the New Yorker?) did a story on her that was focused on all the other women around her that have worked for/with her for years. Tucker Carlson, in particular, had his shorts in a wad because there weren't any men (actually, Tucker was just being his usual assholic self because there are plenty of men on her staff, too).

I don't mean to discount your feelings, leftlady -- just because the impression you get about Hillary isn't accurate doesn't mean that it isn't the impression that she gives. But the fact is that there is plenty of evidence that she gets along well with other competent women, given the large number of smart, lifelong Hillary supporters in her camp.

(and I'm actually supporting Edwards)

[LittleClarkie]

98. She doesn't. She wasn't describing herself there, but the kind of woman who bothers her

and reminds her of Hillary.

[William769]

3. You have to go with your gut feelings.

It would be nice though if you could show how Hillary is like that.

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. I wish I could find a way to listen to her more - so I could get a

better feeling for what she is all about. I don't think I have really heard her talk more than about twice and then for just very short periods of time.

The other thing that bothers me about Hillary is the slickness of her campaign. But that bothers me about any candidate. I always wonder what is real and what is an illusion. It makes me very nervous.

[truedelphi]

59. I agree with everything that you are saying about her style BUT

What bothers me even more is that she is part and parcel of the New World Order.

She is part of the Corporate-controlled, GMO-prevalent, vaccinate-everything-in-sight-for everything, NAFTA-approving, job outsourcing, media-consolidating and most of all

Going-to war-against-Iran supporting Tyranny that I oppose.

Yes she would be more efficient and effective if we have more Katrina styled tragedies.

And better on social issues -though the bones she will throw the Corporations on everything from FDA policy to Big Pharma approval and the continuation of high salaries to health insurance execs
will defeat much of what she will pretend to attempt to do.

She doesn't understand the real middle class and she does understand who is buttering her bread.

[Totally Committed]

4. The dislike for Hillary (You are Not Alone)...

Hillary Clinton's DLC Problem
by Matt Stoller at MyDD

From the New York Times, on the escalation in Iraq:

“We know this policy is going forward,” said Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York. “We know the troops are moving. We know that we’re not likely to stop this escalation. But we are going to do everything we can to send a message to our government and the Iraqi government that they had better change, because the enemy we are confronting is adaptable.”

That's what Hillary Clinton is saying on Iraq. And it's pathetic. Contrast this mushy untrustworthy glop to what we heard with Jim Webb's SOTU response, and what a clear-eyed Democratic message looks like. Webb's speech centered on two themes - inequality and Iraq. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the speech worked, since Webb and a whole host of Democrats just won a big election based on that message. If we had a nominee who carried this winning theme forward, 2008 would probably be the reverse Reagan for us, the consolidating roll-up of the electoral map after the 2006 Congressional realignment that parallels the 1980 electoral follow-up to 1978, which delivered us prop 13 in California (among other reactionary electoral victories). A progressive populist message would work in bringing us huge national majorities and a mandate for massive change. Still, if this is so obvious, why are we only hearing populism, or even a pale attempt at populism, from John Edwards (and Tom Vilsack)?

On the face of it, this doesn't make sense. It's a winning message, so why not use it? Well, it's a winning message, alright, but only for the public. And right now, Presidential candidates are tailoring their messages for elite donors, and the rich don't really care about inequality or Iraq. They care first and foremost about preserving the status quo, because in the status quo they are, well, rich. That's a problem, because if your message is targeted towards the top 1% of the country, you're leaving 99% of the country out of the conversation.

By far the worst example of this disturbing trend among 08ers is Hillary Clinton, who is rolling over donors and trying to prevent a primary from even happening by scooping up mindshare among elites before anyone else can organize. When you hear that you aren't credible unless you can raise several hundred million dollars, realize that this is an idea planted by these elites to entrench their power, and not something that is falsifiable. It bears saying that it's quite probable that don't need $100M to run for President - Kerry didn't lose the General because of a financial disadvantage, and he didn't win in Iowa because of a financial advantage. The 'only credible with $100M' idea is another and more sophisticated version of the electable or inevitable meme that hurt us so badly in 2004. It's something that Hillary Clinton wants us to believe is true. Whether it is true is a different story.

In fact, everything that Hillary Clinton is doing is designed to make us think that she cannot be stopped, to pull the plug on money for others so she can get through the nomination without having to be clear on Iraq or populist in orientation. She is desperately fighting against having to do what Jim Webb did so well - spell out plainly the irresponsibility of political and economic elites. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's a strategy. Or maybe, and this is what I believe, she sympathizes with the elite class more than the public, believing that the public are sheep who can be easily manipulated. She herself hasn't lived in anything close to the real world since 1991. She still makes major policy addresses to the DLC on a fairly regular basis. Hillary Clinton's inevitability campaign is impressive. Her people aren't just hard-selling donors, they put on a full court press on the announcement, even going so far as to pretend she is competitive in the 'netroots primary'. It's a rather remarkable claim, considering that she got only 4 points in the most recent Dailykos straw poll, which is the home base for Democratic activists. Misleading reporters on netroots support is meant to distract two non-netroots audiences. One is the large dollar donor base, who will read for instance that Hillary Clinton does internet cool stuff in the Wall Street Journal without knowing that we really don't like her. And two is the early influential audience, the local politicians who know it's bad to be on the wrong side of a vindictive nominee. The echo chamber of pro-Clinton media, muscle, and money is very strong right now. But Jim Webb just showed us how hollow all that organization really is.

Entire blog here:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/1/23/1675/63190

TC

[jwirr]

15. I have problems trusting her. When a politician talks in open ended

statements like the one on the escalation then we need to beware. I also know that she has a tendency to vote and say what is good for Hillary when she can. I think that is why she is still talking about the insurance companies as part of a health bill. That means to me that she may change her mind as she did in the past when voting on bankruptcy bills in her first term. I want someone like Edwards who comes right out and tells us what he is for. Or Al Gore who is telling it like it is. Hillary is not the only candidate that makes me wonder about their commitment to what they are saying.

[leftyladyfrommo]

17. Yea - I think that is certainly part of what I feel. n/t

[Forrest Greene]

21. It'd Be Nice

...in a wistful sort of way to think that the DLC / PTB are so behind Ms Clinton because they feel they are so discredited that they could not win with another grey-suited white male.

[NoFederales]

27. Hammer meet Nail! Good one. I don't need an organization to make my

decisions for me; I don't need them to winnow chaff, or interpret tea leaves, crystal orbs, or cards....

Bush/Clinton monopoly should be OVER--how many goddamned years of two-family rule are needed? This, alone, is enough for me to reject Clinton. It is diversity/change in life that make it vibrant and interesting. Hillary Clinton has had her diversity and opportunities at the top, now it's time to get her snout out of the trough. That's crude, but so it goes....

NoFederales

[jgraz]

44. Absolutely nails

It's not simply that she can't be trusted. It's that she's clearly working very hard to give us nothing to trust. If she won't even take a stand on the morality of homosexuality ("I'll leave that to others to decide"), how in hell is she going to lead us out of the mess of the last 8 years.

The answer is that she isn't. I honestly think Hillary running for the White House is exactly like Bush invading Iraq. She has absolutely no fucking clue what she'd do should she actually get there.

[femmocrat]

5. I understand what you are saying. I have had some lousy women bosses, too.

Maybe because they have finally risen to the top and want to keep up with the "big boys"? Who knows!

Regarding Hillary, that isn't what turns me off about her. I can't even stand the sound of her voice. Having said that, I will vote for her if she is the nominee.

[leftyladyfrommo]

12. Kind of like Katie Couric's voice?

I don't like Katie Couric and I can't really tell you why. I don't know her. But her voice is irritating to me - and so is her general manner on TV.

I don't mind Hillary's voice. But she just hits me like she is dipped in starch. Too controlled all of the time. Too politically slick.

But I don't want to rule her out for some stupid reason. I just wish I could see her really get down and dirty some time - see what is really there.

One of the things I like about Edwards is that I have the feeling that he is perfectly capable of saying "no" and meaning it - and of stand.

[leftyladyfrommo]

16. I won't vote for her if I continue to feel there is something "off" about her.

I felt that way about Bush and Nixon and REagan.

I would vote for a moderate.Republican I like If it came to that.

[question everything]

20. Thus, you'd rather have more Thomas and Scalia

and Roberts and Alito on the Supreme Court than more Ginsburg and Breyer?

If nothing else - the future of the Supreme Court should be your most, perhaps only concern for the next president.

[leftyladyfrommo]

107. I'm not following your reasoning. I wouldn't walk across the street

to see Thomas, Scalia, Roberts or Alito. I loved O'Connor and I'm a huge supporter of Ginsberg.

And I am still more than happy to give Hillary a chance. I just don't ever manage to be where I can hear her. I don't have a computer at home and I don't have cable. And, yes, I am the last of the Luddites.

I just can't get a feeling for her beyond the slick politician and that bothers me. But knowing that her women employees have been with her for years speak volumes.

But she is tough - had to be to make it through everything that has been thrown at her. And she is still standing. And she is smart.

And I agree with her stance on Iraq. I don't think we can just just pull out over there, either. I think we have to be very smart about the way we pull out.

[CTyankee]

112. The problem is that there AREN'T any moderate Republicans and

havn't been (at least in power) for some time. We used to have "liberal Republicans" here in CT. Those were the days!

I do think HRC will protect reproductive rights and choice and I think her answers last night suggest that she is a hard headed realist when it comes to foreign policy.

I recently read a book about the Cuban missile crisis. What I came away with was how disappointed I was in Adlai Stevenson, a true liberal, in his advice to JFK to solve the crisis. In hindsight, I think JFK did the absolutely best thing in what was probably the scariest moment in the Cold War. JFK was not considered a liberal by many Democrats; they thought he would be a sell out to the corporate interests and the military. In this instance he did not sell out to those interests nor did he go along with what the liberal wing was advising him. He walked a middle road which nobody liked but was best for the country.

[Mz Pip]

7. I don't see Hillary

getting rid of everyone she is not completely in sinc with. The guilt by association thing pretty much leaves you supporting kittens for president, unless a kitten did something bad to you.

I've worked for some horrible women managers and also for some terrible men managers. I haven't ruled out any candidate based on my experiences in the workplace - unless any of the incompetent people I worked for decided to run for office.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[billyoc]

10. Mostly, it's the slavery.

DLC neoliberalism is worse than neoconservatism could ever dream of being, and their policies
are the reason the world is fucked up, not the war in Iraq.

[leftyladyfrommo]

13. Could you explain that, please. n/t

[billyoc]

18. NAFTA, WTO, GATT, and Telecom Reform(media monopolies)

are all cornerstones of the DLC platform. Which is Hillary's platform.

[leftyladyfrommo]

109. Yea, that bothers me, too.

I'm just really confused about her.

[Double T]

11. The last person 'WE' need is another Corporate Psychopath...........

running the country. I understand what you are saying.

[leftyladyfrommo]

14. Yea. We have had enough time with "corporate Psychopaths"

haven't se.

I just want someone who actually acts like a real, live person. Someone who has some feelings. Someone who can actually think things all the way through - from lots of angles.

I like Obama just because he feels so human to me. And I still like Edwards, too.

[DeepModem Mom]

19. I understand, however, that the women who work for Hillary like her...

and are extremely loyal to her, many working for her for years. (I'm an Obama supporter.)

[frazzled]

22. Wow

I am pretty shocked at the tenor of this thread. I don't know whether it is gender self-loathing, plain old sexism, or simply an excuse.

It's fine not to like Hillary, but this is not a legitimate reason, and it promotes the worst sexist stereotypes I can possibly imagine. Thinking like this--the "bitch" syndrome-- will mean that women will never sit in the boardrooms or legislative offices. It is truly destructive to women's causes in general, and I would hope you could get over it. Imagine what people would say if you made such "gut" generalities about gays, blacks, Jews, etc.

Hillary is not my candidate (I really don't have one): I doubt I will vote for her in the primary. But I admire and like her, and think she is incredibly accomplished. She could not achieve what she has if she were a "bad manager."

I am truly saddened that a woman would be promoting this argument. You are entitled not to like or trust her, but to use the "women are bad managers, selfish bitches" argument is really harmful. So keep your personal dislikes to yourself in this case: it's not relevant to the political discussion and is harmful to women in general.

[ElizabethDC]

24. I agree. I also think that Hillary has become a scapegoat for people who are uncomfortable or have

had bad experiences with women in powerful positions. A lot of negative sentiment toward female bosses, etc. is directed at her. I personally prefer to look at people based on who they are as individuals rather than projecting my feelings about other people on them.

[LostinVA]

31. Good post -- I agree completely

[Cameron27]

36. I agree,

I doubt I'll vote for her in the primary too, but lately I've been defending her from some pretty slanted and biased smears.

[rufus dog]

37. The original post is valid

Face it Hillary does have the Bitch factor. And if the nominee the attacks will be relentless. I am not sure how she can get around it. IMO it won't be much of a factor in mens votes, they may acknowledge it one way or another but see little impact on the vote. Not being a female, I can only guess on how much impact it will be on their votes. Leftylady has identified her source of distrust. We all do it. How many have seen Mitt and thought, don't turn your back on that guy. Because we have worked with/for someone who spouts off points that will help him get ahead (these may change based upon the circumstances) and will stab anyone in the back but smile to your face. Or Bush is the underachieving frat boy using Daddy's connections even when he proves to be a consistent fuck up. He then gets a team of supporters around him and becomes a fascist little prick.

[truedelphi]

67. Oh posh and piddle.

I watched women fall all over themselves in the 1980's and try to one up the guys in terms of being oppressive and chauvinistic. They were doing this in order to make it big.

I have also known women who made it big and did so without adopting the behavior of "the Man"

It is a discussion that I feel is very relevant. As a woman, I am SICK And I am TIRED of being told whether what I am and what I do and think and feel and say is the proper thing for me to be doing and thinking and feeling and saying. I'm a woman. If I am thinking somethhing maybe it is not possible for it to be sexist or gender hating.

But those who would usurp my power by telling me that this or that discussion can not be held only make me more determined to discuss the skeletons in the closet.

Would a black who lived under slavery not be able to complain about a fellow black becoming a foreman on the plantation?

Chauvinistic behavior is a form of tyranny and it matters not at all whether it is a man or a woman using this form of behavior to enhance their need for power


In the 1970's, I was ousted from a very left wing clique of women writers for my crime against womananity - being pregnant with a child who grew up to be many things you could want a person to be.

Meanwhile I was not hired to do one of the things I was loving and good at -carpentry -because I was a woman.

I have a right - and every woman out there has the right - to complain if the same tyranny perpetuated by men is now perpetuated by women because they feel that that Tyranny is the only way to get ahead.

And complaining about this Tyranny is speaking out against the whips and chains being used on others. Those wielding the weapons of control are trying to empower themselves by stepping on the dignity of others.


Again so that I can demonstrate that I am not anti woman - For years now, I have supported and watched Barbara Lee, Barbara Boxer, Maxine Waters, Lynn Woolsey and others do some very courageous things. Things Hill might have thought about doing - but opted not to do, because it would not serve her political interests.

[bling bling]

87. Yep, and people act all insulted when I point out how sexism is rampant here.

It's almost a joke. A very, very bad joke. And women are often as sexist as men.

THANK YOU for pointing it out. Please continue to point it out every time you see it here. It's important, I think, not to let these ingrained types of sexist attitudes to continue to go unchallenged. Because you're right, it's harmful to women in general.

[laugle]

128. Great post.....thanks for that! I think it is all of the above!

[ShortnFiery]

23. I can empathize completely.

I've worked for both awful and good women bosses. I concur that the bad ones encompass all the negative stereotypes of the feminine. That said, I've had the pleasure of working for a couple of excellent women. They are not ashamed to let their sense of empathy, fairness and consensus building rise to the top. As a consequence of these typical, but positive, feminine traits, their leadership was highly valued and sought after by the management.

Nobody is more pro-women's rights than myself but the awful, petty minded women bosses set a bad example for our daughters to emulate. :(

[frazzled]

25. And the bad male bosses are a bad examples for sons to emulate

You forgot to mention that. And it's quite telling. It suggests how truly little progress we have made.

This is the most illiberal discussion I've ever read on a so-called liberal board. Unllike Republicans, we do not make generalizations about people based on selective examples. Thus we do not try to paint African Americans as lazy schemers based on the existence of the stereotyped "welfare queen." We do not paint gay men as limp-wristed bitchy queens based on the existence of a few drag queens. And we do NOT make generalizations about women bosses based on the existence of a few bad apples--we certainly don't do that for men, do we.

I never thought the women's movement had so far to go still. I guess all that stuff we went through in the seventies was for nought. Truly depressing.

[ShortnFiery]

51. I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't stand up for bad women bosses even if I'm a woman.

I know that may be hard to tolerate, but there are some terrible women who give into their mood swings like the men give into their machismo bravado.

Women are equal to men but different. One doesn't have to exude testosterone to be a good leader. The best women leaders are firm, self-confident but don't exude the bluster that HRC and her supporters "blast away" at every exchange.

As I've said above, the women who I've been blessed to follow, were senior women Army Officers who were comfortable in the strength of their femininity, and therefore, did not feel pressured to out-swagger the men.

IMO the world does not need another machisma women leader ... an American version of ole' "blood and guts" Margaret Thatcher. :(

[CTLawGuy]

81. actually

people do that in terms of men A LOT around here, and they do so without shame.

[Bitwit1234]

28. There is a line in the movie Legally Blonde that describes you

"If you are going to let one Prick ruin your life you don't deserve ------"

So this means the woman who was your boss ruined your life. If you can't rise about this and see the world of women the way MOST really are you don't deserve to have a vote.

I suppose all you people have a hidden TV station or hidden newspaper that shows and prints stuff about Hillary that a lot of Americans don't see. I suppose what you should do is learn to separate the swiftboating from the truth.

[NoFederales]

29. Did you disable yourself?--"I suppose all you people have a hidden

TV station or hidden newspaper that shows and prints stuff about Hillary that a lot
of Americans don't see. I suppose what you should do is learn to separate the swiftboating from the truth." It must have hurt.

NoFederales

[dsc]

30. If any male posted this we would be called a sexist pig

I fail to see why you aren't one too. Try a thought experiment. Change Hillary to Obama and woman to black and ask if you would have dared post that. Presuming you wouldn't have, you shouldn't have posted this.

[trueblue2007]

32. I think the OP is a sexist pig

Now part of that is because I live in the Midwest and I haven't had much of an opportunity to even hear what Hillary is about. She never seems to be where I am listening - like on Lehrer in the evenings.


HUH??? Hilary is ALL OVER the news. All someone hase to do is change the channel. I never listen to "JUST ONE CHANNEL" like Lehrer in the evenings. I like lots of different types of news (except FAUX News which is nothing but lies etc)

Try CNN and MSNBC especially Keith Olbermann.

[noamnety]

33. Thank you.

That's why we have things on DU like the thread simply stating "Women are Human."

Not some other category, not "Human, but *knowing look* in this category here, not the default human category."


From the Male Privilege Checklist:
If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.

We can see that sorting into categories even in the responses - "I don't like her voice" followed by a mental data bank search of other women she can be compared to, whose voices we don't like, so we can affirm that indeed, yes, this is a trait shared by women, as a group.

[Proud_Lefty]

34. Great post, leftyladyfrommo

The thing that bothers me the most about Hillary is the fact that somehow she has been leading in all the polls since way before she ever announced her candidacy. Everyone on the right hates her and more than half the people on the left aren't happy with her because of her DLC involvement and her non-wavering stance in support of the Iraq war. After the debates, the media starts plugging her as the winner using one of her arguments that happen to be a known right wing talking point. The whole campaign so far seems to be a massive manipulation of public opinion. If the powers that be can make us love Hillary, they can make us love anyone, like they did with spoiled ignorant brat Bush on the conservatives over the past 7 years. I hate feeling manipulated and this feels like a huge con job on the public.

And yes, I would love to see a woman president, like Barbara Boxer!

[ieoeja]

35. Best bosses I ever had were female.

Admittedly, the worst were as well. Some of my female bosses appeared to overcompensate, trying to out tough the guys. My ex-wife was a lot like that. She could never get the nuances of being tough without being a bully.

But most of my female bosses did a much better job of listening to me and standing up for me. It has typically been more difficult changing a man's opinion. And they don't take care of anybody but #1.

[jillan]

38. Well said. You know what woman I think would be an excellent Prez?

Elizabeth Edwards. Even tho I'm not a fan of her hubby, I think she is great.
I would vote for her in a heartbeat.

Another woman to watch, Claire McCaskill. Very impressive, well spoken.
I can see her running for higher office in the future.

[jenmito]

39. The reason I don't support her for president is that

it seems like she's running on her husband's coattals, and if she wasn't with BILL anymore, there's no WAY she'd be winning in so many polls. I doubt she'd even be running for president.

[juajen]

73. I personally think she could run very well without Bill.

However, she doesn't have to, and he, like her, is very popular.

[jenmito]

85. Really? What makes her stand out besides having Bill as her husband? n/t

[David Zephyr]

41. I appreciate your honesty.

I don't support Hillary, but there is a double standard that exists against her which is unfair and almost makes me support her because of it.

[illinoisprogressive]

42. I'm in the midwest and am so sick of her. it's like this nostalgia thing

Clinton will be judged an average president in history. He was the only democrat we had in many years because our party keeps nominating these boring middle of the road kinds. Clinton wasn't. So, now everyone is pining away because they want to look back rather than forward and see what another democrat can do.
It is so sad that so many are stuck in the past and afraid of the future

[laugle]

125. Ah.....yes, I do remember the days of peace & prosperity;

the booming economy; the many jobs with starting salaries of $50,000; the low gas prices; the respect and credibility we once had with the world; when I could sleep at night knowing our country was in capable hands and Clinton wouldn't be terrorizing our citizens and other countries...........of course, this is cancelled out because of a BJ and a girl named Monica, right....wrong!

Ahhhh.....nostalgia......what a terrible thing..............

Clinton was a great president and I hope when he and Hillary get in, he can right some of the wrongs that he did, i.e., NAFTA comes to mind, it's too late for Rowanda, but there is still Darfur.

We need 2 president's to clean-up the Bush mess and nostalgia could be a very good thing!

[glitch]

43. I like Hillary. I think she's great, strong, passionate. I don't like her stand on policies. No big.

Why make it personal?

I'll vote for in the general of course, because even though I don't agree with all her positions I do think she's infinitely better than anything the Republicans have to offer.

[Vinca]

45. Your reasoning gives me something to think about.

I'm in the same boat. While I'd love to have a woman as president, I haven't been able to connect at all with Hillary. She seems too scripted, too political action figure, too something. What I wouldn't give to cast a ballot for Barbara Boxer.

[elizm]

120. Boxer....ABSOLUTELY!!

What a strong and classy woman. If she were running I would definitely vote for her. But I would never vote for a woman just because she is a woman. Boxer has earned my respect over and over again.

[IronLionZion]

46. You could dislike her for being bought and paid for by corporations

or for supporting the war.

Disliking her for being a woman is definitely the worst reason to dislike her.

Why are women like this? My mom is distrustful of women politicians for similar reasons. Maybe women know something about each other that men don't, but IMHO a person's gender ought not to be the motivating factor.

[elehhhhna]

49. yep. well said.

[smoogatz]

47. I don't have to like her to support her.

Most politicians have personalities like fingernails on the blackboard of the soul, if you ask me. There are four basic reasons I don't support Hillary for the Dem nomination, none of which have anything to do with her personality, wardrobe, or hair-do:

1.She's the de facto leader of the corporate wing of the Democratic party. Corporations presently have virtually unchecked influence within the government. In order for government to become responsive to the electorate rather than just an extension of corporate power, real campaign finance reform must be a top priority for any presidential candidate. Otherwise it's just cronyism and corruption as usual, and the people be damned. It goes without saying that Hillary will not be a champion of meaningful campaign finance reform.

2.She voted in favor of the IWR. That decision was either a craven political calculation or a colossal error in judgment--take your pick. She also seems to be waffling on withdrawal from Iraq in a way that's designed to appease both sides--those who think we should stay and those who favor immediate withdrawal. Same old Hillary.

3.She has not, to my knowledge, made global climate change a top priority for a future Clinton administration. It's only the most urgent problem facing the planet. Whatever.

4.Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton? No thank you very fucking much. Let's break the cycle. Let's elect someone who hasn't sold his/her ass to corporate interests and AIPAC. Let's elect someone who had the courage and the judgment to vote against the IWR. Let's elect someone who will get us the fuck out of Iraq in a timely and responsible manner. Let's elect someone who takes global climate change seriously, and who has a workable, effective plan for fixing the problem. Is that too much to ask, for Christ's sake?

[Totally Committed]

48. Great post.

"personalities like fingernails on the blackboard of the soul"

Plus, I agree with you on #1-4, and don't trust her to deliver on my personal #5: Poverty.

Wish I could recommend your post, smoogatz!

TC

[Scriptor Ignotus]

50. trust me, i'm no hillary supporter

but you owe it to yourself to find out more about her. check out her website, watch some speeches. we got youtube, we got google - theres really no excuse. you obviously have an internet connection. don't wait for the TV to tell you what's up. i have been impressed by her performance, as of late. she's no obama, but I think she's aight.

as to the meat of your post, i see where you're coming from. maybe i've been lucky, i've had 2 female bosses and both were excellent.

[ShortnFiery]

52. I've studied HRC and her self-righteousness alone takes me aback.

She is everything that I despise in a woman leader: 1) She gets her status and moves up based on her husband's career; 2) She's cut throat and doesn't mind who she steps on to get ahead; 3) Her husband's cronies will, in essence, re-occupy the WH if she's elected; and 4) She stays with a man in a FALSE marriage as he is constantly cheating on her with other women - that says to me, she don't care about faithfulness as long as "his name" can get her more power.

IMO, HRC is the anti-womens role model for young girls. :thumbsdown:

[ElizabethDC]

53. From my perspective, studying her only made me like her more

I hadn't thought that I would support her, just because I was initially concerned about her electability, etc., but the more I learned about her, the more I liked her and thought she'd be a good president.

Additionally, I thought Hillary was a great female role model for me when I was growing up (during Bill's presidency), and I think I've turned out okay, but then I'm biased about that. :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

54. I guess we differ.

I've worked in many traditionally male roles. Perhaps our backgrounds have led us to different conclusions. If my daughter's future husband *ever* cheats on her I'D TURN HIM EVERY WAY BUT LOOSE. You disrespect your spouse when you compulsively have affairs throughout two decades of marriage. IMO, HRC disrespects herself for staying with him. For that reason alone, in my book she's one huge example of "power" trumps "morality." :shrug:

[ElizabethDC]

55. To me, being a strong woman is about the ability to make choices, popular or not

Hillary had the choice to stay in her marriage or leave, and she had forces pushing and pulling her in both directions. She clearly made the choice that she felt was right for her - which can't have been an easy one, given the number of people such as yourself who think she should have left him regardless - and it appears that she continues to be fine about it.

I don't know if I would have made the same decision if I were her, but I think it's important that each woman has the ability to make the choices that they're comfortable with, for whatever reason. Hillary shows confidence in herself and the decisions she's made, and for me that's one of the things that makes her a good role model.

[Totally Committed]

56. How do you ever know what choices she makes?

She never answers a question straightforwardly, yes or no. She waits to see what the focus groups are saying, what the latest memo from Al From is saying, and what Bill will tell her to say.

Just ONCE I'd like to see her be honest... spontaneously and off-the-cuff instead of evasive and mealy-mouthed.

TC

[ElizabethDC]

57. I was talking about her choice to stay in her marriage, since ShortnFiery brought it up

and the choices one makes aren't necessarily made evident in interviews, but rather in the actions one takes.

[Totally Committed]

60. Oh, I see.

No one but her an Bill are in that marriage, so I have always kept my opinion about that to myself. The only reason it is even tangentially anyone's business is that it ended up taking down the Democratic Party with it, but good, when it crashed.

I really don't want their marriage/his adultery/ whatever to be the only issue discussed during the election. I think her marriage will end up being more of a distraction than a plus.

TC

[William769]

64. Welcome to the cafe Oy vey.

:eyes:

[William769]

65. Elizabeth, why bother?

I'm sure you are well aware of the two you discussing here right now. Absolutely nothing you say is going to be correct.

[ElizabethDC]

66. Yes, I know, but I find the debate entertaining nonetheless

Besides, I've got some work I need to do, and this is helping me procrastinate. :)

[William769]

68. As I would say to Hillary. You go girl!

:)

[ShortnFiery]

69. Yes, you GO, heartless girl! :P

Anyone who looks the other way and is a public figure while their spouse physically cheats on him/her either doesn't' respect themselves OR they have a higher goal, i.e. political power.

By staying with a husband who has cheated on her since the early years of her marriage, HRC is far from what one could remotely qualify as "a feminist."

However, the way HRC plays politics, I understand that she would value *power* over *fidelity* any day of the week. THAT type of free range ambition in a person does not represent a good role model for any thoughtful person, male or female. :thumbsdown:

[ElizabethDC]

70. Are you saying *I'm* heartless and/or I disrespect myself?

Well, that's a new one! :rofl:

Personally, I believe what goes on in other people's marriages is none of my business, plain and simple.

[ShortnFiery]

72. Oh please - I was referring to the woman you seemingly adore.

:eyes:

It goes to character when you are a public figure, you must, ESPECIALLY TODAY, live your life in the open. People do not glean security clearances if they compulsively cheat on their spouses. Why? Because they can be blackmailed. With all the sh*t that Bill and Hill lashed out at Jennifer Flowers and Monica Lewinsky when BOTH knew that they spoke the truth, well ... they have no damn shame.

When you cheat on your spouse and you are a Public Figure, many people get hurt and you can be blackmailed. Ergo, if you choose to be a public figure then either get divorced, stay single or reconsider getting the hell out of the spotlight. Why? All will be revealed so being OPEN and HONEST is the only viable way to go for yourself as well as your constituents.

I'm no right winger but both politicians are IMO morally bankrupt. I hold no respect for either Bill or Hill and wish they'd just go back to NY State and dissolve into relative obscurity.

[ElizabethDC]

75. Well, he was saying, "You go girl" to me, and then you said, "You go heartless girl"

so, well, how was I supposed to know who you were talking about?

Additionally, you believe that all public figures who continue to stay married to a spouse who has cheated (or you are that spouse who cheated) should not be able to hold public office? I'd venture to say that we wouldn't have very many public officials left if that were the case!

[ShortnFiery]

77. Well, I just qualified myself. But it's so much fun to make it about YOU? No, let's not do that?

We're not talking about once or twice cheating, Bill Clinton was infamous in his sexual pursuits when he was the Governor of Arkansas.

Remember in 1996 when they both went on national TV and disgraced Jennifer Flowers? Shameless. :puke:

Now, I know that years ago the press didn't bring that out. However, this is now. I don't trust someone who not only looks the other way but actually helps her husband intimidate his ex-lovers in order to cover up his hormonal surges.

We deserve better. They are both morally bankrupt: Bill for not keeping his pants up and Hill for staying with him in order to plug-into that political charisma. It's just sick. :thumbsdown:

[ElizabethDC]

78. That was *Gennifer* Flowers and it was in 1992, not 1996

Well, you've clearly made the judgments about their morals (not to mention the reasons why she stayed with him) for yourself, and I feel somewhat differently. It's not an open-and-shut case for me but, regardless, the state of one's marriage is completely irrelevant when I'm deciding who to vote for.

[ShortnFiery]

79. I thought that they had to answer for her - Gennifer - in 1996 too?

If not, forgive me, for there are so many lovers Bill Clinton has had we need a damn scorecard. :shrug:

You'd think after Gennifer Flowers he could CONTROL himself. Bill Clinton is a compulsive adulterer. It speaks to poor character that not only will HRC look the other way, but she's actively involved in all the cover ups. :scared:

[ShortnFiery]

80. Yes, plus all the women and their significant others, if not spouses, do suffer - are hurt.

It's wrong to cheat when you are in the public eye because you will be discovered. When you are compulsive about acquiring new lovers, it's just ... in many people's eyes, morally bankrupt despite Bill's high intelligence. :shrug:

[ElizabethDC]

82. It may have come up in '96, but it was more of a factor in the 1992 campaign

Clearly, Bill has some problems. But I view those sorts of problems as personal ones to be dealt with by Bill and his family.

[Dervill Crow]

89. Maybe some people care more about emotional and spiritual fidelity than physical.

I always supposed it was the Repuglicans who were so concerned about people's sex lives.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

124. somehow I don't think Clinton's marital problems outweigh all the progressive

things that he did when he was in office. And I suspect the same can be said for HIllary while she has been a Senator, and when she was the First Lady.

This argument is very, very old and very, very tired.

[Donna Zen]

102. Senator Clinton makes unpopular choices?

Like voting for whatever her pollster tells her is how she makes choices. I hope you are just making the case as one of supporters and don't actually believe what you're saying. Example: voting for the war.

[laugle]

127. I get it now........

There's a personal story there, I think I understand now where you are coming from.

Try to get past the personal stuff, it's nobody's business.

You don't have to like her, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone," I try to remember that, because I don't want to make moral judgments about people, it works for me.

As far a your daughter goes, I'd stay out of it, if I were you, unless of course she asks for your advice.

[MGKrebs]

58. What??!!

1.) Let's see; Girl Scout, National Honor Society, National Merit Finalist, Wellesley College student president, first-ever student to give the commencement at Wellesley (by student demand and followed by a 7 minute standing ovation), graduated with honors, featured in Life magazine at 22, Yale Law School, staff attorney at Children's Defense Fund, interned with Walter Mondale, on the Watergate staff of the House Judiciary Committee....

THEN she decides to move from Washington DC to Arkansas to marry Bill Clinton.

Yes. She was clearly gold-digging. Not.

[leftyladyfrommo]

108. When you put it that way it does make you wonder about the

choices she has made. LOL

[noamnety]

74. "everything that I despise in a woman leader"

:eyes:

separate criteria for different genders?

IMO, people who make comments like that are the anti-women's role model for young girls. :thumbsdown:

[ShortnFiery]

76. No, but thanks once again for playing the "victim card"

:eyes:

[noamnety]

100. if it's not separate criteria for different genders

why not simply say "everything that I despise in a leader" instead of "everything that I despise in a woman leader"?

Do you like those qualities, whatever they are, any better in a leader when he's not female?

[ShortnFiery]

103. That's a good point but it doesn't apply to all that many men - use wife's high position

to push themselves up the ladder of power and success. But yes, you make a valid point. It applies to both men and women.

[noamnety]

114. far more people in politics

use their parents' high positions to push themselves up the ladder of power and success. I don't see why that's any better or worse - family is family. People use what advantages they have. If you look at it that way, you should have the same amount of resentment toward RFK, Jr, or Al Gore. :)

[ShortnFiery]

115. Except passing down a small family business, it's called *nepotism* & it's cronyism at it's ...

most demented and debased form. It's supportive of a "caste system" like that still functioning in countries such as India.

If America is truly representative of "the land of opportunity," the Senior Hilton's Will (and FORTUNE) should not have been overturned by his *WORTHLESS* heirs.

Inherited wealth and nepotism (large corporations) are filth of the privileged in action.

BTW is Harry Reid's wife still a functioning Lobbyist? If so, why is he permitted to be our Democratic Leader in the Senate?

The major reason that I disrespect HRC so very much is that she reminds me of a number of General Officer's Wives when I was a young Company Grade Officer's wife. They, in print, had ZERO rank, but that didn't stop them from making our lives miserable and forcing us to SERVE THEM and their ambitions. HRC behaves like an irritatingly arrogant and constantly demanding *General's Wife.* IMO, HRC nor her morally challenged (but highly intelligent) husband deserve to be back in the white house. It would be 24/7 Scandals Galore. :(

I. LOATH. NEPOTISM. (along with most Americans not blessed to be within the Investor Classes)

[noamnety]

116. Has hillary forced you to SERVE her?

has she forced anyone to serve her?

[ShortnFiery]

118. Her traits mesh with that of "The Generals Wives" who seemingly wore their hubbys' stars.

I seriously doubt HRC played team sports as some of us Girl Scouts in Nebraska participated in. If she did, then I'm miffed as to why HRC doesn't readily acknowledge others who work for her campaign. No, hubby's success has pushed her up the political latter and IMO, it's a false promotion. She doesn't have the innate capacity to spontaneously show empathy. That one flaw makes her less than "likable." :shrug:

Again, she exudes traits that are not, IMO, characteristic of good military leaders. Since I've always worked in either the military OR government service positions, that is my perspective.

[noamnety]

119. I see a lot of vague "I don't like that SORT of woman"

rather than specific behaviors identified. This is why your posts are coming off as sounding misogynistic. Another person wrote that if you spoke of Obama that way, we would all see how offensive that is, and I believe that poster was correct. "His traits mesh with that of other black people (in the military, or not) that I've seen" is bigoted, no?

I haven't seen a stunning difference between how she treats her campaign workers and how other candidates treat theirs. I will say that I know John Conyers dogs his staff here in Detroit like crazy, and can be very abrupt to them. They put up with it because he does awesome things; it's an honor to work for him, but my daughter has been in his office and seen him speak to them in ways that shocked her. Not cursing or anything, but with an attitude she found extremely off-putting. What "sort" of people would you identify that behavior with? Military wives?

I think you have some very strong double standards, where you are especially hostile to a woman that uses connections to get where she is, while being blind to the notion that that's how MOST people make or break their fortunes - by using the connections they have, whether they are in the family or not. And I think you are using double standards that come from gender-roles imposed upon us, when determining how much "the ability to show empathy" matters. Again, Conyers is one of my favorites, he's local so I see him fairly often, and I will tell you "an ability to show empathy" isn't something he's known for. He's known for intelligence and grit. And I've never heard one person complain about that. He's there to do a job, and he does it well, and that's more important than whether he gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

I never liked team sports or Girl Scouts, so I can't talk much about whatever it is you're alluding to that makes you think those groups are superior to the rest of us in some way.

That said, I'm not planning to vote for her because of her stance on the war.

[ShortnFiery]

121. Then you are not looking at specifics.

HRC was PERSONALLY involved in confronting ex-lovers of her husband. She has gone on National Television and, in essence trashed these women. I find that SICK.

Therefore,if anyone is Misogynistic it's HRC. If I caught my husband in an affair, I would blame HIM and hold only HIM responsible. There's absolutely nothing feminist about her protecting his patriarchal desire to seduce women other than herself not to mention being directly involved in the cover up by confronting the "other women" directly as well as trashing them on national TV.

On edit, albeit all of Bill Clinton's affairs have been with adult women, I wouldn't want my teenage daughter or any attractive friend anywhere near the "sexually compulsive" man. :thumbsdown:

[noamnety]

123. I missed that.

HRC was PERSONALLY involved in confronting ex-lovers of her husband. She has gone on National Television and, in essence trashed these women.

I didn't have television when Clinton was president, so it is entirely possible that passed me by. (for which I suspect I should be very grateful.) Do you have links or is it too far back to go back and look at that?

(not that it's related to military wives, imho, but I am curious what she said to the other women.)

[bling bling]

88. WHAT YOU SAID!!!

Thank you!

[Evergreen Emerald]

99. Where do you get your inside information? Fox news?

--"1) She gets her status and moves up based on her husband's career;"

HIllary Clinton is an accomplished attorney in her own right. She is more accomplished than many in the senate today. And everyone uses friends and family to gain attention and meet people in high places.

"2) She's cut throat and doesn't mind who she steps on to get ahead;"

Where did you get that information? (other than the right-wing smear machine)? Who has she stepped on or destroyed to get ahead? And, if you are using that as critera--who have the other candidates used to get aheard?

"3) Her husband's cronies will, in essence, re-occupy the WH if she's elected;"

Where are you getting your information? Which cronnies? Who don't you want in there? I thought the Clinton era was awesome and I would love to have some of the "cronies" back.

"4) She stays with a man in a FALSE marriage as he is constantly cheating on her with other women - that says to me, she don't care about faithfulness as long as "his name" can get her more power."

What the hell? How do you know what their marrige is? ohmygod.

It sounds to me as if you have swallowed hook-line-sinker the years and years of lies told to you by the neo-con smear machine.

[laugle]

126. what a load..........

She is an accomplished woman in her own right, and her marriage is her own business. Personally, I would have divorced him, since I have zero tolerance for cheating, but that's me.

Your comments sound very personal and maybe a tad envious.

[Capn Sunshine]

62. I don't think you've given her a chance

If you do the homework, you'll find a quite likable politician in line with most if not all of your views. I suspect you are viewing here through the prism manufactured by media in the midwest- where men still find strong intelligent women threatening.

What you are referring to is exactly what they are trying to do to you-
"imagine every bad woman boss you've ever had-she's like that"

It's not your fault but one of the reasons you are posting is because you expect to be further persuaded one way or another.

Don't let the right wing media frame your view of Hillary, make up your own mind after a little research.

Granted, I don't like Hillary's organization, but she's a damn good candidate.

[CrispyQ]

61. I would say that the worst bosses I have worked for

took everything good about being human & threw it in the trash. And whether they were men or women, they were equally awful.

Personally, I prefer to work for women. I have made the most gains in my career working for women.

[Yael]

63. And they say she isn't polarizing

:rofl:

I have no use for her because I do not trust her. That is not going to change. At this point, I simply cannot/will not pull the lever for her.

I also believe that she is dangerous for the party. The right hates her with an unnatural passion and will mobilize the anti-hillary vote like we have never seen.

Oddly, I don't see this same kind of concern (polarizing) about the other candidates. Maybe I haven't been looking -- who knows. It is something that we need to look long and hard at and truly consider the ramifications of long before the convention floor.

[summerintx]

96. Hillary's negative coattails in Red States

A long-time Democratic party activist in Texas told me he's convinced that if Hillary is our nominee virtually every East Texas Democrat in the Legislature would lose their seat. If he's right, and I believe he is, that will possibly cost Democrats Texas and the other red states for a generation. (Full disclosure: I'm not her biggest fan.)

[Yael]

106. Welcome to DU

From another n00b

:hi:

[Desertrose]

71. You offer some good thoughts leftlady.

I want to like her...I really do. A woman running for prez. Now that is cool...except I just don't like this one.

This will get me in trouble no doubt, but its like she is playing the game the same way the men play and where is the advantage of her being a woman that way? I'm just not getting a sense of heart from her & I do think that heart is sorely needed in the WH. I have no doubts about her intellectual abilities...maybe she's just had to slug it out too long in the heartless world of politics. Dunno. Just something is putting me off her.....

Anyhow...appreciate your post leftlady:)
DR

on edit- obviously I don't know Hillary personally so my opinion is just that...one more opinion.

[eridani]

83. I don't have that particular problem with her at all

I just object to her pro-corporate and pro-imperial policies.

[kiteinthewind]

84. I hear what you are saying, but I do not support her because I don't trust her. Actions are what

I am judging, and I don't like hers. Wouldn't matter if she were a man or black or a purple alien. I just don't trust her or anything that comes out of her wishy washy mouth. I personally think it is ignorant to vote for someone just because they are a woman or a man. What that woman or man does or says or DOESN'T DO, is what matters. I hope that we have a woman president soon, but I want it to be THE RIGHT WOMAN-not just A woman. And, BTW, I know what you are saying. I think sometimes women try to be 'tough like the men' to prove they are equal or something. Good grief, if we can't be who and what we are and get ahead then who the hell wants it. And before everyone freaks out, I know there are 'tough' women, also, but there ARE some in this society that seem to look at women and say women aren't tough enough to lead. To those people I say, 'you don't have to be 'tough' to lead, you have to be smart!'. I would take smart over tough anyday.

[marlakay]

86. It is her job to convince us

and I respected al gore alot when he said I should have convinced them to vote for me, don't blame the people.

Nothing hillary does convinces me to vote for her in fact the opposite everything she does screams at me...oh my god...is this what we are in for?? we won't get universal health care, we won't leave iraq, would she even stop the tax cuts?? god only knows??

I can't say either than to say I have never trusted her...I always felt she stayed with bill because of power and politics and would have left him in a heart beat and took him for all he had otherwise...

I also have had many women bosses and my sister n law is one of the top managers of Levy and she has gone far because of being calm and knowing how to treat her employees with respect.

[ShortnFiery]

117. Exactly, it's respect and passing down tasking (not responsibility) that impresses one's

employees. For my brief time (4 years) in the Army, I noted that the best units had both NCOs and Officers with excellent communications skills - especially that of "active listening." That is, in Units with high performance ratings and high morale, there were NO stand outs, - NO STARS. It was a team effort where those "in charge" made sure everyone down to the privates were rewarded for a job well done. I was blessed to be a member of one of those units. You know it when you feel a sense of pride - esprit de corps. :blush:

A good leader doesn't need to be humble in nature, but he/she should be open to all new information from a multitude of sources. I never discounted the opportunity to glean "opinions" because it is essential to making sound decisions that benefit all within the unit.

HRC does not give me the impression that she LISTENS often to her subordinates nor does she reveal any signs that she SHARES the GLORY of her political victories with others. I *seriously* don't like HRC using her first name to campaign. It is IMO, un-professional as it's commonality focuses on "the person" and detracts from all those "little people" in the background who tirelessly contribute to her campaign. :shrug:

Part of me is embarrassed, but I've known many professional women sporting similar traits as HRC - and I've also despised every last one of them. :(

[Throd]

90. It is that voice that sounds like a dentist's drill that does it for me.

She sounds like Sister Mary Elephant screaming at her class.

[efhmc]

91. This is an ingrained, socialized antipathy toward women in power.

It effects woman and men, feminists and misogynists. We have been programed to regard women of power as suspect.

[ShortnFiery]

94. Wrong, it's resentment for arrogance and self-righteous abuse of power by either gender.

HRC is shameless and would not have achieved even the level of State Senator if it was not for her husband. She represents everything that is parasitic, not any of the positive aspects of femininity. Even her daughter has gone for MONEY first options having decided to work for Hedge Funds.

[efhmc]

95. I will not argue this point. It is a fact and has little or nothing to do

with Hillary. I personally think she is an opportunist. However, most, if not all of her publicly chided foibles would be overlooked if she had a penis instead of a vagina.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftyladyfrommo]

111. What politician is not an opportunist?

I would love it if she could come up with a really good idea for insurance!

[laugle]

129. You need to find out what you are

so angry about, because it sure is not about Hillary!

I don't want to pile-on you, but you are sounding very self-righteous yourself!

Hillary is not the cause of your problems.......I suspect something else is going on with you, and the hurt is coming out in other area's.

Being as judgmental as you seem to be, will only make you unhappy, since it's impossible to live up to your standards.

The best you can do is to be a good person, and the best will come back to you.

[leftyladyfrommo]

110. Yea. And Condaleeza Rice didn't help. She is just a total disaster.

I don't really feel that way about women leaders. I like lots of them.

And, God knows, Hillary would have to be a thousand times better than Bush.

[Donna Zen]

92. So True

Some of the worst bosses I've ever had have been women. Yes, it is as if they hold a "false model" in their heads as to how they are expected to act. To be fair, I've had good female boss.

In Senator Clinton's case it's her Margret Thatcher persona that scares me.

It is very likely that given America's aversion to "one-party" rule, at least one house of congress will turn over if the Dems. take the Oval Office, I absolutely don't think that Sen. Clinton is worth it.

[rufus dog]

101. Short n Fiery just compared Boxer to Clinton

Saying how he/she likes Boxer. And I got to thinking, when Boxer held up the Gavel and told Inhofe that elections have consequences I laughed my ass off. Started thinking what if Clinton said the same thing? I know it wouldn't have been has funny, buy would I have laughed at all? It is not a male/female issue, it is part of her style/delivery persona that makes it hard to like her. I have heard she is great face to face but on TV she does come across a bit as the smartest girl in HS or College, a bit like she is talking down to you. She has improved immensely this year but it is hard to let the original impression go.

[CTyankee]

104. I know exactly what you mean. I had a woman boss who Hillary

sometimes reminds me of. One thing is HRC's head nodding, especially when she does it after making a point and having applause. She nods and has a little smile. This former boss did the same thing. Funny how stuff like that can just get on your nerves...

[Mushroom]

113. A question

We've had candidates/presidents with personas such as King Arthur, Will Rogers, Robin Hood, cowboy, athlete, war hero, father, Jesus, God... what/who would you choose for Senator Clinton other than an awful woman manager?

[silvershadow]

122. what I don't like about Hillary...

it will be the same ole same ole if she gets elected. I don't want the same ole same ole. I want a progressive agenda, and an aggressive agenda.

[BenDavid]

130. If I were to tell you that HRC

was the driving force behind the legislation that forced the insurance companies to stop the so called "drive thru" deliveries at birth, would that help in some small way. Remember this was passed not while she has been a Senator but while First Lady.

I thank you
Ben David