John Kerry's eloquent words.

[Botany]

"You can see the precise military honor given to each of those soldiers, the flags draping the coffin
rippling in the breeze. You can see the honor guard folding that flag meticulously into that sharp
triangle of blue and white stars and then handing it to the loved ones, the wife, the mother, husband,
father. Then hear those words -- 'On behalf of a grateful nation' -- and watch people crumble."



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-kerry_zuckmanjul23,1,3288818.story

Thanx to Sabra for posting this great article .... a must read.

[wisteria]

1. I agree. It is difficult to read Senator Kerry's words and not feel some of the pain these families

endure. Sad times.
The article is a good one.

[beachmom]

2. Thank you for matching the picture with his words. K & R. nt

[MiserableFailure]

3. Kerry finds himself opposing it

Maybe he shouldn't have voted for it in the first place. Can someone clarify whether or not Kerry has apologized for his war vote like Edwards has? I didn't hear about it. I know that Hillary hasn't apologized but I'm just wondering if Kerry has shown the courage to do so. If he has, I'll applaud him.

And no I'm not referring to an "if I knew then what I know now" bullshit line. I want to know if he said something like "I was wrong to vote for the war".

[Mass]

4. He has several times since October 2005.\nt

[fedupinBushcountry]

5. This is not about Kerry

or Edwards and what they said and when they said it, this is about NOW and what needs to be done NOW. Go find another place for your accusations and do your own homework on it, and YES Kerry DID apologize a LONGTIME ago. I'm over this type of posting, and the 'snark' that comes with it. Walk a day in John Kerry's shoes, through his life and then maybe you will know what courage really is.

[wisteria]

8. Wonderful response. n/t

[MiserableFailure]

21. Hey bud

I am a military veteran as well. I served 11 years in the Army and retired as a Major. I served in Gulf War I(a war Kerry opposed) as well as Kosovo. So Kerry was wrong on Gulf War I and wrong on Gulf war II. Gore was right on both. Now buzz off

[fedupinBushcountry]

24. First off I'm not a bud

Secondly, I am the wife of a career military man who served in Vietnam. Thank you for your service. Listen, I didn't respond to what you were or who you are, I responded to your asking if Kerry has any courage, is that how you treat all veterans ? I will not buzz off either, I have every right to state my opinion.

[MiserableFailure]

25. Well i'm sorry but i mean look what you said

you said walk a day in his shoes and i'll know what courage is. i took that a personal attack. i have one purple heart, believe me i know what it means.

now i respect his service. but just because he served does not give him immunity. my father is kerry's age and also served in vietnam.

and i wasn't attacking kerry's courage either. but courage in war time and courage in politics are two different things. i honestly didn't know if he apologized for the vote or no. i'm glad to hear that he has. and i'm not an edwards supporter either. if you look at my other posts you will see that i have bashed edwards on the war vote as well. i support obama and it's clear from some of my other posts.

[karynnj]

27. The problem I see is that even though he was our 2004 candidate

you have use only one vote as a metric of political courage. In fact, neither side incurred more risk for Senator John Kerry. He was running in MA where the vote hurt him in 2002 (marginally - he still got 81% of the vote).

Before the war started he spoke out when it was clear that Bush had lied on his intent. You could argue that you knew Bush was probably lying and I assume Kerry thought there was a good chance of that as he said in his IWR Senate speech that he would speak out if Bush broke his promise to go to war only as a last resort and he did before the war started. It is also clear in the speech that he thought the war critics (including himself) had succeeded in making him go to the UN, which he didn't want. It is possible that Kerry saw the ONLY way to avoid a war that was clearly on the horizon was to co-opt Bush into joining a successful international operation that would accomplish the goal of proving that Saddam did not have and was not obtaining WMD. In fact, in late 2002, as Saddam destroyed questionable missiles, there was some real chance that Bush and the UN could have declared that they suceeded in their goal without war. At any rate, he has said that his vote was wrong.

As to political courage, there are at least 3 times where Kerry demonstrated political courage that might be on the level of his highest military act of courage.

1) Even though he had political ambitions, he chose to speak out against the Vietnam War. Read his whole statement - it is completely remarkable. When it was clear that the VVAW were becoming more radical he became with Bobby Mueller and others a co-founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, which lobbied for the veterans. (Even in his Senate testimony, he complains of both conditions like the recent Walter Reed and the lack of treatment for what came to be called PTSD. He did this against a President who was possibly more paranoid than Bush. The Nixon tapes have Nixon people ordered to destroy Kerry. That this was political is seen by the recent disclosure of an aide to A. G. Mitchell, who was then leading the RNC election team that Kerry would be a real prize to get as a Republican candidate.

In 1972, when Kerry ran for Congress as a Democrat, he was subjected to a campaign that was likely worse than the SBVT. Kerry and his wife had tires slit and rocks thrown through their windows - one nearly landing in their daughters cradle.

2) When Kerry finally became a Senator, he was told by Vietnam Vets about drug and gun running by the Contras. Kerry was the only Senator willing to investigate this - several Democrats actually thought the RW thugs should be armed by the US. This was in 1985 and 1986 when Reagan was a very popular President. His actions resulted in the end of cocaine coming into the country and the investigation of the Contra side of the Iran/Contra investigation. It was lying to Kerry in his drug and terrorism sub-committee, that led to people being charged with perjury. (He was not included in the Iran/Contra hearings.)

3) BCCI, a Pakistani bank with terrorist connects - Kerry spent 5 years unravelling the links that BCCI had that enabled terrorists, global criminals, and drug runners to move money around the world. Kerry fought the President (Bush I) and nearly the entire Senate to fight BCCI which had bought its way into control of 2 American banks. BCCI had corrupted enough politicians on both sides that they thought they could not be investigated. Kerry ignored pleas from Jimmy Carter (upset because Bert Lance was involved) and Jackie Onassis (upset because Clark Clifford was involved.) To him it was more important to fight this enormous threat. After BCCI was closed, it was found that OBL had very significant assets there. Kerry quite possibly set back OBL's efforts.

Each of these efforts, plus taking on the likely no-win POW/MIA chairmanship, were long term major committments to efforts that were importsnt and needed to be done, but which could have derailed a political career. They demonstrate political courage. They certainly outweigh a vote on a flawed resolution that in reality did very little. The troops were there, the DSM show that they would have created a "cause" if needed to attack under the power that the President had as commander in chief.
(By the way, he and most Democrats voted against the first Gulf War because they wanted other methods - like sanctions - tried before going to war. It was not a war of last resort. That war was short and few Americans died, but it set the stage for the situation we face today.)

It is fair for you to say that you disagree with his vote - he in fact disagrees with that vote. It is not fair to say it was because of lack of political courage. Another example of political courage was to lead with Feingold the effort to change the plan. The current Democatic plan is basically the Kerry/Feingold bill that won only 13 votes last year. Obama and Clinton were not among the 13 - nor did Edwards then go out of his way to take that position. For the last 2 and a half years, it was Kerry (and Feingold) who took the risk and changed the country's mind on this war. That took courage and you have seen the derision and hatred that it has subjected him to.

I think that if you were to look at the records of all the Senators/Congressmen you respect, few will have demonstrated the political courage and the committment to doing the right thing - even if he is likely to get no credit, that Kerry has.

[beachmom]

28. Excellent post, Karynnj. I find Kerry to be a very courageous politician.

He does many things that others shy away from. But admittedly, a lot of his Senate record can only be known with research, which most people don't have time to do. I would also add to your list that Kerry was a courageous and innovative prosecutor in Cambridge, skills that he honed in the Senate to go after the Iran/Contra thugs in our own government, and later the sinister BCCI. I don't know many other politicians who would go against the GOP AND Democratic establishment, even the pressure from Jackie O', to do the right thing and carry on his investigation of BCCI.

[globalvillage]

30. Nicely stated, Karen.

As the late Hunter Thompson said, the Senator is "A good man with a brave heart." I can't imagine a more fitting description.

[MiserableFailure]

33. Feingold is the man

He was right on the war from the beginning and also the only Senator to vote against the Patriot Act. It's a shame that he isn't running, and it's a fucking shame that he's being attacked by DUers

[LittleClarkie]

35. Indeed. If he disagrees with the impeachment sentiments

he does so honestly. I hate to see my Senator derided for having a different opinion.

[MiserableFailure]

36. Yep, classic perfectionist fallacy, Clarkie

From some people on here

Makes me sick, honestly

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Perfectionist_Fallacy

If a candidate is right on 95% of issues, some people on here would rather vote for the guy who is right on 100% but has no chance on winning, and possibly tip the election to the guy who is WRONG on 95% of issues. What's up with that?

Like I've said, I live in NY so my vote won't matter, but if I lived in Florida, and Hillary was the nominee, I'd vote for her, even though I hate her guts. Because it is crucial to have a Democrat in office come January 2009. Not because they have the D label, but because of what our candidates stand for. They agree on 90% of issues and it's time to stop this shit.

It's fine to discuss all this during the primary season and try to find the best candidate, but once he or she is selected, it's time to rally around the flag and shut up.

[LittleClarkie]

38. You make a good point. Sometimes I wonder what I would do if it were Hillary

I think if it were Hillary and Hagel, I might toy with voting for Hagel. But it'll never be Hagel.

And as you say, even if you don't like the Dem in the White House, it's still better than a Republican in the White House any day and twice on Sunday.

[MiserableFailure]

40. agreed

nt

[wisteria]

42. Kerry is and has been correct on this war.

And, some people would say that the Gulf War left unsettled business and aided in the terrorism we are living with today.

[pacalo]

6. He has said that his vote was his greatest regret.

Now why do people who have a bone to pick choose to dampen a "John Kerry's Eloquent Words" thread, particularly one that includes a solemn photograph of a grieving family?

Kerry has said that he regretted his vote. Take a step back from all the false, negative hype & try to remember what kind of man Kerry has been all his life. We would have been lucky to have had him as president.

[wisteria]

7. He has and he apologized even before Edwards did. n/t

[ProSense]

9. You give Bush too much credit!

What is it about Bush that leads you to believe the BS line that the resolution in any form, passed or not, would have stopped him from illegally invading Iraq?

Give a little thought to what Bush has done in the four years since the invasion. How many laws has he skirted or broken since then?

[babylonsister]

10. Yes he has; google is your pal. nt

[karynnj]

11. He did many many times - before Edwards

Additionally, Edwards, and possibly Hillary (she was silent), were for attacking Iraq. Kerry spoke against an attack before the war started on January 23 at Georgetown and at several appearances in Iowa. He said he voted to give Bush leverage with Hussein and that Bush had promised to go to war as a last resort - when Bush broke those bromises and made moves to attack, Kerry spoke out as he said he would.

In 2005, Kerry said he was wrong to trust Bush with his vote. In early 2006, at take back America, Kerry went further saying the vote was wrong and that the war was immoral. In reality, this was not new. Throughout 2004, Kerry said the war was not a war of last resort - under Kerry's belief system, as described in his Pepperdine speech, this meant the war was not a "just war" under the St Augustine definition. That speech also outlined when Kerry thought you could go to war and how you would be required to conduct yourself - in addition to the obvious - no torture etc, he spoke of having to plan to leave people in reasonable circumstsances.

If you read the fall 2002 and winter/spring 2003 articles, Kerry was labelled anti-war - in spite of his vote. At any rate, he spent all 2004 ennumerating how Bush mislead us into war, without exhausting the diplomacy, without letting the inspectors complete their work, without a plan to win the peace. (He said this DAILY so you must have heard it.) He has also as much as anyone led in the effort to find a path to change the policy and get out since 2004.

[Botany]

13. Oh please

If living in Ohio and feeling more than a little let down by Kerry's lack of
action after the theft of the 2004 election and I can find it in my heart
to thank him for these really beautiful words why can't you give it a rest?

He is human .... he made a mistake and has said so .... move on.

[sandnsea]

14. Edwards refused to change course in 2004

Edwards is a big part of the reason Kerry had such a difficult time advocating his plan to bring troops home starting in 2005. Edwards wanted to stick by his pro-war stance, the stance he actually got into an argument with Howard Dean about in Feb 2003. Edwards is really just another Joe Trippi 'take back america' concoction, like every other campaign Joe Trippi has ever directed.

[Botany]

15. Please

out of repect to the dead and their family & friends give it a break.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Botany]

18. this thread was not about Edwards or Kerry's past actions

just the simple beauty of Kerry's words describing the pain of a military
funeral.

[sandnsea]

19. And you mentioned Ohio - why??

It had what to do with the funeral?? Don't jump on my ass for something you did as well.

[MiserableFailure]

22. Oh i'm an idiot now?

Personal attacks are against DU rules sandnsea. Look I've lurked here awhile. I know about your luv luv for Kerry but cut out the personal attacks.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Why does no one ask why Kerry didn't oppose the Vietnam War in 1968 instead of 1971

Or some other earlier date.

Because he wasn't there yet.

Same here. He wasn't there yet. I saw the evolution of his thinking, could just about predict when he was going to come out anti-war. He even said it. He said at one point that the Iraqi government had about six months to get their act together. When that window closed, that's when he came out against the war. April 22, 2005, I think it was. As soon as I heard the date, I knew. It's the same date in 1971 he gave his testimony in front of Congress you see.

He's not a political coward. He was torn between knowing all about terrorism from his dealings with the fallout from Iran/Contra and watching the situation slowly deteriorate in Iraq. You may not always agree with him, but he does not pick his positions based on cowardice. It's what he thinks at that moment.

This is what he thinks now.

[beachmom]

45. Close, Clarkie. Kerry came out with a NYT op-ed in the spring

of 2006, and then on April 22, 2006, the 35th anniversary of his testimony to the SFRC, he gave that speech of a lifetime -- Dissent -- a speech I will call the best speech I have seen IN MY LIFETIME (I'm a Gen Xer so this is from the '70s and onward). And I have it on tape.

Here it is, for anyone who hasn't seen it:

http://12.170.145.161/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=john+kerry&image1.x=23&image1.y=8

Second from the bottom video.

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. Why haven't you admitted you were wrong yet?

At least 10 people have corrected your "mistake" about Kerry apologizing for his war vote - which, honestly, if you were REMOTELY well-informed, you wouldn't have made. Honestly, I think you know perfectly well that he has apologized for his vote MULTIPLE TIMES IN PUBLIC for the past two years.

"If he has, I'll applaud him."

OK, so we're waiting for your applause, your gracious mea culpa. Somehow, I'm not suprised that you don't have the grace to admit you were WRONG.

The timestamps on your posts indicate you've posted in this thread HOURS *after* you several people have corrected your "mistake" - it's extremely telling that you haven't had the decency to make a follow-up post saying "I was wrong and I'm sorry for spreading untruths."

[MiserableFailure]

48. Hey bud

Look at my post:

"Can someone clarify whether or not Kerry has apologized for his war vote like Edwards has? I didn't hear about it. I know that Hillary hasn't apologized but I'm just wondering if Kerry has shown the courage to do so. If he has, I'll applaud him.

And no I'm not referring to an "if I knew then what I know now" bullshit line. I want to know if he said something like "I was wrong to vote for the war"

You can read, right? So read it. Good on him for changing his mind. Now get off my back :eyes:

[politicasista]

12. K&R

:kick:

[fedupinBushcountry]

16. Thank you so much for this post Botany

The true reality of eloquent heartfelt spoken words.

:patriot:

[beachmom]

20. I wrote a diary and linked to you, Botany. Link:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/23/141425/248

[BlueIris]

23. K&R.

[globalvillage]

26. Tragic and beautiful.

Thanks.

[LittleClarkie]

29. This picture belongs here

[Botany]

32. and that it does

and that it does.

Thank you for posting it .... I will save it.

[LittleClarkie]

34. Remember that funeral? It wasn't long after the election

and it was such a contrast between Bush, who never goes to military funerals, and Kerry.

[MiserableFailure]

37. Bush doesn't go to military funerals because

he doesn't want to be confronted with angry opponents of his failed war policy. He'd probably go to one if the parents of the dead were total wingnuts and all the attendees were also total wingnuts. And I'm sure they'd get all the major media to cover it. :eyes:

[beachmom]

46. That's an excuse for why he doesn't go NOW to funerals. But what

about when he was still popular, and soldiers died in Iraq? He didn't go then either. He does meet with families of fallen soldiers, but if they start giving him some lip about his policies he gets petulant on them. He has no grace whatsoever. I don't see how people could have voted for somebody who quite obviously does not like people or care much for what happens to them as a result of his policies.

[politicasista]

39. kick n/t

[mloutre]

41. retro-kick

[TayTay]

44. Botany, these words from last April, also are beautiful

and tragic and heart-wrenching and happened 15 months ago. 15 Months and over a thousand deaths ago.

I believed then, just as I believe now, that it is profoundly wrong to think that fighting for your country overseas and fighting for your country's ideals at home are contradictory or even separate duties. They are, in fact, two sides of the very same patriotic coin. And that's certainly what I felt when I came home from Vietnam convinced that our political leaders were waging war simply to avoid responsibility for the mistakes that doomed our mission in the first place. Indeed, one of the architects of the war, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, confessed in a recent book that he knew victory was no longer a possibility far earlier than 1971.

By then, it was clear to me that hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen-disproportionately poor and minority Americans-were being sent into the valley of the shadow of death for an illusion privately abandoned by the very men in Washington who kept sending them there.

John Kerry, April 22, 2006, Faneuil Hall, Boston, MA.

More at: http://www.johnkerry.com/2006/4/22/a-right-and-responsibility-to-speak-out

Isn't this true about Iraq? Are we not sending our brave men and women "into the valley of the shadow of death for an illusion privately abandoned by the very men in Washington who kept sending them there." Sen. Kerry said last week that there are way more than 60 Senators in Washington who believe this war in Iraq is unwinnable. It is immoral and unconscionable to continue to send our people into harm's way for something they believe cannot be won. It is immoral.

When will that lesson sink in, when will we learn?



Sen. Kerry at the funeral of Dimitrios Gavriel. Nov, 2004.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/dimitrios-gavriel.htm

[beachmom]

47. Thanks for the excerpt and picture, Tay. Upthread I linked to

the video of that speech on the CSPAN website. That speech is going to live in infamy, I tell you.