Hugo to boot alien foes

[sabbat hunter]

" President Hugo Chavez said yesterday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country.

Chavez ordered officials to closely monitor statements made by international figures during their visits to Venezuela - and deport any outspoken critics."

is chavez right or wrong to expell foreigners who criticize his government or him while visiting Venezuela?



now i ask you this, if * did the same thing here what would you think about it?

[Stargazer99]

1. As long as he does not silence his own citizens

like the American King George. I remember when a group protested in California and Oregon when Bush was "elected" the second time and they had a tank like vehicle leveled at them obviously intimidating those groups. I've NEVER heard or seen that happening in my 66 years...the sheep are dutifully shutup. I wish Americans had half the balls the French have.

[wyldwolf]

2. wow.

Some will excuse anything in defense of their socialist hero dictator.

[madinmaryland]

3. My understanding is that it is illegal for anyone in Venezuala

to criticize him, not just foriegners.

[iverglas]

23. well that certainly passeth all understanding

My understanding is that it is illegal for anyone in Venezuala
to criticize him, not just foriegners.

Is it also your understanding that the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and I am the Queen of Romania?

Maybe you read something about the events discussed here:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11970

and just, oh, failed to quite understand at all ...

Why -- really, WHY -- does anyone feel and succumb to the urge to say such utterly moronic things in public?

Is there some way that stating one's "understanding" of anything when it is completely contrary to fact contributes to the democratic discourse?

I'll bet it was Bush's understanding that there were WMDs in Iraq. And it's still a lot of people's understanding that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the attack on the World Trade Towers.

It's my understanding that there are faeries at the bottom of my garden. And hey, that one's a lot harder to argue with than your "understanding" about Chavez. But about as fact-based.

[bluestateguy]

4. Chavez's defenders sound surprisingly like Melanie Morgan and the US patriotism police

As they defend Chavez's latest decree, just switch the name "Venezuela" with "US" and the name "Chavez" with "Bush", and you can see what I mean.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. But it's Hugo Chavez! He's a GOOD dictator!

I don't know why so many DUers love the guy. Just because he hates Bush? Granted, he's no Hitler, but he certainly has as weak a grasp of Democracy as our generalissimo.

:shrug:

[Peace Patriot]

6. Source? nt

[sabbat hunter]

11. check out the link

there is a link in my original post.

it is from the wire services, you can look on google to find it elsewhere.

[Peace Patriot]

17. There is no link in your orginal post. What do you mean by "the wire services"?

Associated Press? They are one of the worst war profiteering corporate news monopolies.

Why don't you just say what the source is? Why the reluctance?

[Peace Patriot]

7. For non-rightwing/corporate crap news on Venezuela, I recommend...

www.venezuelanalysis.com

[rinsd]

9. LOL. VenezuelanAnalysis might as well be straight from Hugo's mouth

[Peace Patriot]

18. That is not true. www.venezuelanalysis.com has many writers and viewpoints.

It is not averse to publishing criticism of Chavez. I just read an article there that criticizes his proposal for the Bank of the South as containing too many neo-liberal elements.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=2094

On the whole, the site is sympathetic to Chavez, Venezuela and the Bolivarian revolution that is sweeping South America. But that was my point. If you want information about Venezuela that is not rightwing/corporatist crapola--lies, disinformation, fascist framing--go there. It presents the alternative view. Broaden your mind. Find out what LEFTISTS think--to balance what our war profiteering corporate news monopolies are shoving down your throat, 24/7.

The DUers who keep calling Chavez a "dictator" are not only repeating Bush State Department propaganda, they are contributing to the stupidity of other DUers and Americans in general. There is an enormously important revolution occurring in South America. Venezuela is only part of it. It has vast political and economic implications. It is vitally important that we understand this revolution, for many reasons, not the least of which is to try to keep our own brutal fascist/corporatist government from funding and supporting death squads, assassinations of democratic leaders, torture of innocent people, and rightwing dictatorships, as the U.S. did in the 1980s under Reagan. There is considerable evidence that that is exactly what Bush has been doing in Colombia. To keep focusing on one personality--Bush's 'demon' du jour--and ignore the millions of people who SUPPORT Chavez's ideas (Latin American self-determination and social justice), not just in Venezuela (where Chavez won reelection in December with 63% of the vote), but also in Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Brazil, Peru, Paraguay, Uruguay, Nicaragua, Mexico, Cuba and other countries--is to make yourself utterly blind to what is happening.

How is this narrow focus on Chavez--and the constant repetition of Bushite lies--helping anybody? How does it improve knowledge and understanding to keep reviling this one person, with the same Bushite "talking point" over and over? What do Venezuelans say? Don't their votes count? What does socialist Evo Morales, the first indigenous president of Bolivia, say? What does Rafael Correa, the new leftist president of Ecuador, say? What does Nestor Kirchner, the leftist president of Argentina, say? What do THEY think of Chavez? What do their supporters think?

Ah, there's the rub. Chavez is HUGELY popular in South America. All of these other presidents are CLOSE FRIENDS of his. They are embarked on the same journey--social justice and regional integration in South America. They are part of the same peaceful, democratic, leftist (majorityist) revolution.

"Dictator"? Right. Tell me that Evo Morales--the union leader who led the popular uprising against Bechtel Corp. and went on to be elected president--would lend his support to a "dictator." To maintain this "talking point"--that Chavez is a "dictator"--you have to reckon with Morales, Correa, Kirchner, and Fernando Lugo in Paraguay, and Lula da Silva in Brazil, and Ortega in Nicaragua, and Vazquez in Uruguay, and all of the millions of South Americans who find common cause with Venezuela and the Bolivarian revolution.

You are insulting Venezuelans--and, indeed, most of the people of South America--by the implication that they can't tell the difference between bold, strong, visionary, democratic leadership, and dictatorship.

Me? I like to hear both sides, all sides. And then make up my own mind. I read widely on South American subjects. I think Bush's line that Chavez is a "dictator" is utter bullshit, and, like everything else the Bushites say, contributes NOTHING to reasonable discussion or understanding.

[rinsd]

21. No offense but newsmax has been tougher on Bush than that article is on Hugo.

[MrPrax]

8. Of course...

Why would any foreign national travel to another country for the reason of criticizing it?

Too laughable -- the US is a country that has locked up foreign nationals without even reference to international law, let alone domestic law...but Chavez is a dictator for reminding 'you know who's' citizens that their Constitutional rights are not portable and if you're coming to Venezuela, behave yourself as a guest.

What a dangerous guy!! -- is the German gov't a bunch of Nazis because they told English soccer fans the same fucking thing.

Good grief...what an angle for people living under the shadow of Great Decider.

yeah we know...the whole world are full of people who secretly wish they were Americans, but they just don't know it yet and the one's that can't be convinced should be shunned or liquidated

[sabbat hunter]

10. remember back in the late 70's

there were iranian students here that protested our allowing the Shah into our country, burned american flags, etc.

should they have been deported for their actions?

[MrPrax]

13. Maybe??!!

...but nobody would be calling the US government or it's President dictators if they did, would they?

The analogy doesn't fit -- the US would have been well within it rights to deport them if they wanted to...and it would have been legal.

BUT you really didn't mean to use this analogy did you?

I mean in CONTEXT, if foreign nationals allied to a government that is hostile (and one in the process of being overthrown :eyes:) are publicly demonstrating support then...even MrPrax with his high-minded love of American foreign policy could see a case where those nationals might be deported...perhaps even locked up and asked a few questions. In fact a few were.

MrPrax wouldn't be calling it a dictatorship; it would be par for the course and if foreign nationals want to involve themselves in the politics of the countries they are visiting, then they take that risk....just like they shouldn't buy children for sex or purchase drugs 'to go'. End of sermon.

Besides...the irony of course is that for the last fifty years it's been the US worried about foreign nationals with foreign ideas lurking about the jungles of Latin America exporting revolution and causing decent folks to lose sleep.

So the American strips foreign nationals of their rights, disappears them into offshore gulags, tortures them to obtain information that is suspect and unverifiable...but Chavez is a dictator if he warns 'American' nationalists that if they are caught fermenting instability, handing out NED cash bribes, spreading sedition through evangelical fronts and generally being the usual anti-Latin dickheads, he'll deport them.

I am sure there are whole lot of folks in Gitmo that wouldn't mind that type of dictatorship as opposed to being an 'unperson' by the World's Bestest Democracy©.

Glad none of you trouble spotters run nightclubs...

[sabbat hunter]

14. they called

carter and the US the great satan, imperialist oppressors, and other similar comments.

of course chavez himself called bush all sorts of names while in the U S and he wasnt deported from the US was he?

[MrPrax]

15. Ha?

Here to repeat: Every nation on the planet has a right to deport foreign nationals on their soil and you know what...THEY don't even have to give an explanation. Good on Chavez to give stupid Americans a heads up.

Moreover since when, is addressing the UN and calling fuckwad Bush a dictator and rationally defending such a statement, such a concern for someone on a democratic party board anyway and why would you possibly think that was analogous? You reaching so low that he have to defend the Bush adminsitration in order to make the 'Chavez is scary' schtick work.

Hey Chavez technically has a criminal record; maybe next you can refuse him entry for that...:eyes:

How pathetic...

[sabbat hunter]

16. my point was

that technically we could have deported chavez for that, and there would have been an uproar over that.


chavez isnt such a nice guy is what my whole point is, he is collecting power unto himself.

[MrPrax]

19. Technically...

Any country can deport a non-citizen at their leisure anyway -- they don't have to even give them an explanation. Your point was simply an attempt to hang a smear on a leader in Latin America you believe is ultimately against your personal financial interests. It was cheap theatre and it made you look dumb.

Now if you think the US should have allowed entry to Chavez and then waited until he said something that you didn't like about your idiot President that you keep defending, then they sure could have arrested him and deported a world leader at the UN.

Then again the US can make up shit about some country and then bomb the living crap out of them too...and deport heads of state because he's 'collecting power'?

(As if that's any of your goddamn business anyhow and if it is a legitimate concern of yours then you forgot to bark loudly about dictators last week when Uribe's free trade deal in chainsaws and trade unionist hands were being discussed or last month when Mubarak was having his 30 year dictator bash.

Shit should be easy doing sumthin' about that power collecting stuff in those countries -- hell they are our allies and shit and we could like sanction them and stuff, because we know that works...blah blah blah

What next? Sovereign countries don't have the right to issue broadcasting licenses unless they check with American fringe? Probably the same fringe that Bush is getting legal advice from? :eyes:

[iverglas]

24. give it up; you don't have a point

First, foreign heads of state/government attending proceedings of the United Nations are in the US entirely incidentally. The US took on the responsibility and benefits of having the UN on its soil, by its own choice, and it is not consistent with that decision to try to control what other governments' representatives enter for UN-related purposes, let alone what they say at the UN. Cheeses.

Here's what actually seems to have been one of the last straws (oh look, a link):

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/07/23/venezuela.chavez.ap/

The Venezuelan leader's statements came after Manuel Espino, president of Mexico's conservative ruling party, criticized Chavez during a recent pro-democracy forum in Caracas.

Nice bedfellow ya got. He isn't a representative of any govt, by the way; he's the president of a right-wing foreign party.

Another link:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2795626.ece

Since December, Mr Chavez has moved swiftly to advance what he has called his Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela, named after Simon Bolivar, the hero of the South American independence movement. He has taken steps to nationalise the telecommunications and energy industries, notably forcing foreign oil exploration companies to accept state control of their operations.

He has also launched an ambitious effort to unite the leftist factions already supporting him into a single new party. Officials claim that as many as six million citizens have already declared allegiance to it. Mr Chavez insists that his aim is to shift control of the country's destiny to the citizenry and the poor. It is a strategy that is sure to play well with the masses. Hunger and poverty rates have been slashed under Mr Chavez's rule and provision of education and health care has been greatly improved.

He's apparently also cutting the bloated salaries of senior civil servants, imposing a max of what comes to 28 times the minimum wage. (Yeesh, I can just imagine what would happen here in Canada if there were public servants earning $10,000 a week.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2133334,00.html

Some analysts played down the warning. "I still subscribe to the view that what appears to be wrong with Chávez is more bark than bite," said Larry Birns, of the Washington-based thinktank, the Council on Hemispheric Affairs.

"Venezuela is not moving towards an authoritarian regime. It's just that when he speaks Chávez doesn't have a pause button. These sort of remarks cause enormous misapprehension and misunderstanding but don't really represent his convictions."

... Foreign journalists and NGOs operate freely in Venezuela and about 80% of the domestic media is in private hands. Mr Chávez's supporters say he has behaved with remarkable restraint given that much of the private media openly backed a coup which briefly ousted him in 2002.

Your attempted analogies involving non-US citizens in the US criticizing US foreign policy are ludicrous.

The Shah, for instance, was in fact a mere puppet of the US -- and by imposing his regime on the Iranian people by force, the US had in fact made itself the great Satan. To compare foreign attempts at undermining the Venezuelan government to protests against US foreign policy within the US is disingenuous at the least. Venezuelans and Iranians are/were real victims of foreign intervention. The US is not. Too obviously.



http://english.eluniversal.com/2007/07/20/en_pol_art_mexican-pan-warns-ag_20A902645.shtml

Caracas, Friday July 20, 2007
Mexican PAN warns against "Chavezism"

Chavezism is risky for Latin America because it does not respect the communities of foreign countries and practices undue meddling, said Manuel Espino, the chair of Mexico's Partido Acción Nacional (PAN).

"Some of this Latin American current, called now 'Chavezism,' is present also in Mexico. It seems to us very risky for Latin America that an expression which respects neither its community nor the communities of foreign nations, intends to have such an undue meddling," said the political leader, DPA quoted.

He claimed that his country had suffered the interference of the political current linked with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez.

"My country has felt uncertainty, hatred and resentment encouraged by this current that is set to be fashionable in Latin America."

That's some mealy-mouthed stuff there; maybe just a bad translation, but ... an expression which respects neither its community nor the communities of foreign nations, intends to have such an undue meddling - ?

That's a Venezuelan press organ, I gather:
http://www.eluniversal.com/index.shtml

The lead story on the front page is about the Honduran cardinal who's been criticizing Chavez ...

[wyldwolf]

12. Chavez himself did.

[1932]

20. A better comparison: If Mossadegh did that to Kermit Roosevelt...

...would the Middle East be the mess it is today?

[killbotfactory]

22. What was the response here when Chavez went to the UN and called Bush the devil?

If I remember correctly, the response seemed to be split between those, like me, who were laughing and applauding, and those saying it was completely inappropriate to insult a host nation and/or he should be kicked out of the country.

[1932]

25. A few people talked about the rest of the speech....

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:ZfrD9_xch0MJ:www.archive.org/details/Hugo_Chavez_UN_Sept_20_2006_eng_trans+Chavez%27s+UN+speech+mp3&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari