Pro-private health insurance lobby starts doing its thing - SICKO/Moore Smearing begins in EARNEST!

[FormerDittoHead]

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/21/health-care-drudge/

Industry-Led Smear Campaign Against SiCKO Makes Its Way To Drudge

Currently atop the Drudge Report is a gigantic ad by “Health Care America,” which states, “In America you wait in line to see a movie. In government-run healthcare systems, you wait to see a doctor”:.....

http://imgred.com/

This is funny. I guess the rich don't have to wait, but for the rest of us, they have ENTIRE ROOMS for waiting - they're called WAITING ROOMS!!

"The ad is part of the industry-led smear campaign against Michael Moore’s movie SiCKO. The group is “financed in part by pharmaceutical and hospital companies.” Its Advisory Board includes President Bush’s former HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson. In June, the organization “staged a conference call that drew nearly 20 reporters from around the country,” with the purpose of discussing “what Michael Moore left out of his movie.”

[sandnsea]

1. We wait at home to die

Can somebody put that ad together.

[drm604]

29. Seriously.

We need some non-profit group that can use donations to buy ad time to counter this bullshit. Surely such a group currently exists. If not then one needs to be formed.

If corporate media won't sell us the ad time then we would need to resort to something like mass-mailing. Or volunteers placing literature in people's doors.

Or maybe we can form networks of house parties with videos and handouts.

[Cosmocat]

39. Back to the future - Hill Care ...

Back when she had soul, Hill tried to take this on, and the right wing just totally evisterated her ... We got a taste of just how focused and hateful these scumbags are then, I would expect nothing less than a strong response to Moore ...

[drm604]

47. We need an even stronger and more focused response to them. N/T

[ProudDad]

52. here's one

www.michaelmoore.com

I'm sure they'll be very active...

[drm604]

60. Thank You.

Thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious to me. I'll now laugh at myself :+ :rofl:

[FormerDittoHead]

66. Check out www.SiCKOCure.org or "Physicians for a National Health Program" at www.pnhp.org

http://www.SiCKOCure.org

http://www.pnhp.org

[Deja Q]

2. Funny how they talk about long waits...

And I don't mean waiting room waits, though they count too.

The time I had to wait for a simple surgery seemed lengthy... and my general practitioner loves to put off even simple blood tests (a cholesterol count requires a separate visit?!) just so they can sock it to the insurance company.

[SOS]

102. The "waiting" propaganda is an outright lie

"One disturbing study published last year by researchers at the University of California at San Francisco found average waits of 38.2 days to get an appointment with a dermatologist to check out a possibly cancerous mole. "Waiting is definitely a problem in the U.S., especially for basic care," says Karen Davis, president of the nonprofit Commonwealth Fund, which studies health-care policy.

A Commonwealth Fund study of six highly industrialized countries, the U.S., and five nations with national health systems, Britain, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, found waiting times were worse in the U.S. than in all the other countries except Canada.
But, there's something else you probably don't hear about Canada. Substantial progress is being made.
Most of the wait times problems derive from funding cuts by conservative national or provincial governments, or from the siphoning off of resources by private providers. But precisely because the Canadian system is publicly administered, Canadians are able to force their elected officials to fix problems, or get voted out of office."

They are scared now and are resorting to the usual blatant lies to protect their outrageous profits.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_28/b4042072.htm

[msongs]

3. at our HMO there is a 3 week wait to see doctors ... plus this rate increase -.

emergency room deductibles jumped from $35 to $100. The management makes half a million dollars a year or more.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Gloria]

4. Just got in from seeing SICKO--overall effect was to make me feel

sad, very sad. It goes beyond health care, it asks questions about who we are. It also describes how keeping us afraid, poor, and undereducated is vital for the continuation of THE SYSTEM. Without people within the system who want it to change, we are really screwed.

[bobbolink]

10. "It's about WE. Not about ME"

I don't think we can get there anymore.

More than sad.

Tragic.

[Doctor_J]

13. Yes, Sicko shone a light on a nation with a broken soul

we as a people are in our death throes.

[NotGivingUp]

20. "It also describes how keeping us afraid, poor, and undereducated is vital

for the continuation of THE SYSTEM." I am so glad that was brought up in the film. I can't wait to see it. Unfortunately, I am waiting because it's not playing at the theaters near me.

[dflprincess]

5. There was a recent report on the local news that in the Minneapols/St Paul area

you can wait anywhere from 6 weeks to 6 months for a routine colonoscopy. Supposedly, if you're having any symptoms, you go to the top of the line.

Several years ago I had to wait 6 weeks for one and I was having a symptom (which turned out to be nothing, thankfully).

[wtmusic]

6. Pretty soon those libs will be taking away our valet parking

my Botox treatments are already stressful enough!

[WCGreen]

7. I remember one night I had to sit in the emergency room while

they tried to "find" me a room...

I waited over 12 hrs...

Burning up with fever...

The funny part, get this, it is soooo hilarious, the hospital had just elimiated beds because, get this now, their occupancy rate was down...

I love for profit health care...

Just love it...

[FormerDittoHead]

8. I know - ridiculous. This is just the beginning. They're smart and motivated... n/t

[dugggy]

9. My dear wife had serious surgery today....

It lasted almost 3 hours so it was a complicated procedure.
This is a first in my family. No one had anything this serious before.
Her problem was not life threatening, so it was basically a procedure
to relieve chronic pain.

My wife works in the business office of a medical practice. She has
health insurance through the employer.

After observing how quickly the surgery was scheduled, how efficient
the hospital staff was in performing the various tasks from pre-op
to post-surgery, and how modern and clean the hospital is, I am now
convinced I would never want any other system.

And by the way, she is doing fine. Just tired & sleepy from the
anesthesia and the normal stress of a 3 hour surgery.

[bobbolink]

11. So glad she is doing fine. I hope you care about the thousands who *AREN'T*

[drm604]

12. So,

even though this is the first and only time for you and your family, and you have NO other experience with something like this, you're able to decide that our current system is the best conceivably possible and that no other system could possibly be better?

Glad to see that you've looked at all of the evidence, examined a wide variety of experiences, and came to a solid scientific conclusion! :sarcasm:

[dugggy]

21. Only thing I know is reading articles about Canadians who

have to travel to US to get elective surgery without delay.
When I need hip replacement or surgery to relieve back pain,
I hope there is no waiting in line as is sometimes the case
in Canada.

[drm604]

26. Where do you read these articles

and why do you use elective surgery as your example? I've noticed that people trying to defend the US system always seem to use non-essential care as their benchmark rather than immediate essential needs. I wonder why that is?

Citing only the wait times for elective surgery in Canada doesn't really prove anything, does it? Show me the wait times in Canada versus the wait times in the US. You need to compare the two systems to make a meaningful decision that's not simply propaganda. And you need to compare something other than non-essential treatments.

While you're at it, show me the number of people who die or suffer permanent injury in each country per capita per year due to delayed or denied non-elective care.

I don't know whether or not the wait time for elective care is shorter in the US, but if it is maybe it's because we've kicked over 40,000,000 people completely out of the line and they may never get treatment. How many people are you willing to kick out of the line so that you don't have to wait as long for your non-essential care?

You stated that your one single experience with a serious but non-life-threatening medical problem has convinced you that you wouldn't want any other system. Ask someone who doesn't have coverage if they feel the same way, because they are also part of the system you praise.

Many, probably most, Canadians will tell you that their many experiences with both essential and non-essential care have convinced them that they wouldn't want any system other than their own.

[dugggy]

31. I have no problem if Candiens are happy with their system,

but I have just as much right to be happy with ours.
Ours has served me very well for 47 years and I don't
want any changes, especially a government beauracracy
running my health care. But I have no problem if tax
payers want to subsidize the insurance payments for those
whose incomes are below a certain level.

[drm604]

41. Listen to yourself.

You have a right to be happy with our system. You have been served very well by it (during your one experience) for 47 years.

Frankly, you sound like "Me, me. me. Screw everyone else". I know you don't mean it that way, but it's going to sound like that to a lot of people.

About your "government bureaucracy" complaint. Right now, your health care is being run by corporate bureaucracies. You don't have a problem with that? At least a government program would have to answer to our elected representatives. The current system answers only to investors.

You say you're willing to let the government subsidize insurance for people below a certain income. Good for you. But what are you willing to do for people who have sufficient income but still can't buy insurance because of existing health issues? What are you going to do as more and more employers drop coverage due to the constantly increasing costs? What are you going to do when this happens with your family's coverage and you suddenly realize that you can't afford the premiums of a non-group plan?

What are you going to do about the huge costs due to the multiple corporate bureaucracies and the maze of requirements and paperwork that doctors and hospitals currently have to put up with?

What about the approx. 20% that goes to overhead and profits for the insurance companies? Medicare does it with an overhead in the single digits.

[dugggy]

106. Fair questions, and I would respond as follows:

A government beauracracy has no competition. What is
the last time you ever saw or heard of elected politicians
getting rid of any govenment agency? It is rare & unusual!

Atleast, supposedly the private beauracracies have to deal
with competition. They go bankrupt if they can't turn a
profit. The inefficient go away, replaced by the more
efficient.

As for those millions who can not afford health insurance
and services, where will the Billions in funding come from?
We are already hundreds of Billion in deficit every year.
Bush is spending taxpayers money like a drunken sailor. He
has probably added more to nation debt than the last 5
presidents combined. Ok, so you want priority for health
coverage spending, then specify where the cuts in spending
can be made. We can reduce defense spending but can not
eliminate it. The reductions in defense spending probably
won't amount to 10% of what is needed for universal single
payer coverage. Go ahead, list your budget cuts areas. I am
listening.

[Beaverhausen]

50. You and your family are lucky to have good health insurance

many americans do, but many don't.

I have good insurance, but my boyfriend -who is a nurse- has an HMO which sucks. He has chronic back pain and can't get his primary care physician to send him to the specialists to get the tests he needs.

Why are you being so selfish? Is it just - "well, I have mine so I don't care about anyone else!"

[dugggy]

107. Please read my post above !

[LanternWaste]

36. Could you post the publications and authors of these 'many articles'?

Could you post the publications and authors of these 'many articles'? It would really be a help because, to be honest-- the line that Canadians have been visiting the US to use our medical infrastructure has been discredited over and over again. But maybe there's new information and articles you have access to...?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. I was in England last month, and I asked people about their health care

The landlady at one bed-and-breakfast was a cancer survivor. She said that the time elapsed between her doctor's first suspicions that she might have cancer through two tests to the surgery was two weeks. There was no wait for follow-up radiation or chemo either.

She was still alive two years later, so whatever the British National Health Service did for her must have been the right thing.

Waits for elective procedures are fine, as long as you can get prompt treatment when you really need it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. And people with no health care don't even get a place in line

Any wonder why it is a shorter line here? 46 million Americans aren't even in the line.

[Doctor_J]

14. Snark

I suppose if you lived in Canada, she would have had to wait 8 weeks.

Stop watching Fox Noise. Then take your head out of your ass.

[dugggy]

24. My brother-in-law was a doctor in the British socialized system,

and he can tell you lots about delay in getting medical
treatment for non-life threatening problems. So, not all
my news is from Fox. In fact I rarely watch Fox News.

[drm604]

28. You keep using non-essential problems as your example.

Why are you avoiding discussion of conditions that threaten death or permanent injury? Aren't you willing to maybe wait a little longer for elective surgery in order for someone with a life or health threatening problem to go first? Should availability of care be based on who's fortunate enough to have coverage, or should it be based on immediate need? You keep talking about speed of care. We're talking about whether care is available at all at any speed.

Stop a moment and listen to what you're saying. It comes off sounding very selfish. I know that you don't mean it that way, but that's how it sounds and people may misjudge you based on what you're saying here.

[dugggy]

32. For those who can't afford insurance, other taxpayers should be

required to pick up the tab. But let us not lurch into
a beauracratic government agency deciding how long one
be required to endure a non-life threatening pain
situation. Ask anyone with back pain, hip pain, knee pain,
gall stones, etc as to how long can they endure the pain
so that other folks can get more urgent treatment.

Besides, by law, hospitals are required to treat all
emergencies regardless of ability to pay. I don't think
there are people dying in the streets without hospital
access. Atleast I have not seen such news items.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Well, I've seen news items of hospitals dumping charity patients

on Los Angeles Skid Row before they're fully required. They've dumped people in hospital gowns with IV's attached to them. Google and you'll find the articles.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-cousineau31dec31,0,4968496.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-15-skid-row_x.htm

Great system, huh?

[drm604]

42. No, let's leave that up to a corporate bureaucracy instead.

Nobody's talking about "lurching" into anything (interesting choice of words). It can be done carefully and thoughtfully.

Given the choice between a program that has to answer to the taxpayers and a for profit company that only has to answer to investors, I'll take the first choice. You keep throwing out only one side of the story. You can't make intelligent decisions without examining the alternatives. All you want to look at is the horrid government bureaucracy straw-man that you keep throwing out while ignoring the corporate bureaucracy nightmare that we're currently living with. (Oh, I forgot. We have a wonderful system, as proven by your one experience.) Why do you insist on believing that a government program will deny people pain treatment but that for profit corporations would never do that?

You may not have read about it, but people have died due to the current system, even some people with insurance!

What about Tracy Pierce? He died when his insurance company refused to pay for the cancer treatments his doctor prescribed. http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/health/13690306/detail.html?rss=kc1&psp=news

What about Michelle Keyes, the 18 month old girl who died when her insurance company insisted that her mother take her to a different, further away, hospital? With single-payer you can always go to the nearest emergency room.

I'm happy that you had a good experience with your one-time need. Many, many people have not had such good experiences and, in my humble opinion, those good experiences will occur less and less often as our current system continues to become less and less efficient and more and more costly. Don't be fooled by your one experience. Don't be fooled by your "private is always better" indoctrination. Look at the bigger picture.

[ProudDad]

56. You're missing the point

that the civilized world has "gotten"...

For-profit insurance companies have NO place in determining how and who gets Health Care!!!!

That's the message of SiCKO...

Have you seen it???

As for this statement: "by law, hospitals are required to treat all emergencies regardless of ability to pay"

Have you been to a County ER lately? I have. My SO had acute gastritis, waited for 11 1/2 hours to NOT BE SEEN BY A DOCTOR and was billed for the experience. Bullshit on that!!!!

I think we're getting your idea of a successful health care system: "I'm satisfied with my health insurance" and "I don't think there are people dying in the streets without hospital access. At least I have not seen such news items."


My GOD, did you read that before clicking on POST Message????? :puke: :eyes:

[ima_sinnic]

85. hospitals do NOT accept anyone and everyone regardless

... someone very near and dear to me was turned away from a hospital emergency room with heart attack symptoms because he had not paid his grossly inflated bill from the previous visit.

And by the way, using hospital ERs as "welfare clinics" is absolutely insane! You are in effect insisting that hospitals "pick up the tab" for anybody and everybody. I had serious symptoms of a stroke and had to wait 5 HOURS in an ER just to be seen because of the massive overcrowding. I called a hospital across town to see how long the wait would be there and she said some people had been there as long as 8 HOURS. After I finally got in, I was there another 5 HOURS because the staff was stretched thin.

Why don't you take your selfish captialist propaganda crap and shove it up your overprivileged troll ass?

I know this will be deleted and I will get another DU black mark but I just no longer give a fuck. I am tired of sharing the planet with short-sighted, selfish people.

[ima_sinnic]

86. delete -- dupe

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. They are only required to treat life threatening emergencies

Not ALL emergencies.

You haven't seen SICKO yet, have you? :)

[Hippo_Tron]

82. It comes down to "I'm for change so long as it doesn't inconvenience me"

[ProudDad]

55. Anectodes

"he can tell you lots about delay in getting medical
treatment for non-life threatening problems"

And I can tell you lots about long delays in getting medical treatment for non-life threatening problems in the HMOs of the good ole' U.S. of A.

Health care is rationed here to. Those who can pay get care, those who can't don't get shit...

[KingFlorez]

15. But what about the people who can't afford to pay for healthcare?

Get real, it's easy for someone who can afford it to say that the current system is great. And the problem isn't how clean or modern the hospital is, the problem is access.

[dugggy]

25. That is a problem that needs to be addressed in a humane manner

however I am still very satisfied with the way our medical
delivery system works. I would hate to have it run by an
government agency. May be the low income people should be
subsidized for medical insurance, so long as the government
and the tax payers can afford it.

[KingFlorez]

27. It works for those who can afford

Other civilized countries in the world has a systems of health care that assure that everyone can have access, not just a select few. If countries with less money than the United States can provide citizens with health care, the US certainly can come up with a reasonable system.

[ProudDad]

70. Please read Post #53

Please read Post #53

[booley]

99. Not all of us without health care are poor

I 'm not. But i still couldn't' afford health care nor get it because of pre-existing conditions.

And right now in Missouri where I live they have tightened the qualifications to get the very "subsidized' health care you speak of.

It's great that you have not had a medical horror story. But millions of us have. MILLIONS. And that's not going to get solved by a band aid.

Plus, I have yet to hear any reason to think you won't continue having the same kind of health care if we get universal health care.

As another poster pointed out, we already have a large bureaucracy running health care.

[PA Democrat]

108. The problem extends well beyond people who are uninsured.

It's also the corrupt techniques used by the for-profit insurance industry to deny payment of claims, to deny medical treatment.

I've had health insurance all my life and was shocked when an insurance company tried to screw me out of cancer treatment by falsely (and they damn well knew it) claiming it was a "preexisting condition". I had to fight, filing a complaint with the state's Insurance Dept., and threaten legal action to get them to pay. This company has a record of routinely cooking up false reasons to deny payment, and they are not unique in the industry.

Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy filings, and half of those people HAD health insurance.

But hey, as long as YOU got YOURS, fuck everyone else, huh?:puke:

[FormerDittoHead]

43. That's not the real problem. The real problem is those who DO pay but are screwed over...

I don't think dugggy's seen Sicko.

But the fact is that this baby isn't going to be sold by talking about those who don't have health insurance - that's been going on for years and years with nothing done because simply, most people have some kind of health insurance...

I, for one, don't want a system of added "welfare" insurance. That will only mean that the working class will pick up the tab as usual, BUT ALSO CONTINUE TO PAY FOR THEIR PRESENT SHITTY HEALTH INSURANCE AND TOP DOLLAR PRESCRIPTIONS.

Also, such a welfare system would be UNDERSTOOD to be inferior / sub-standard than the pay system, and one wouldn't qualify for it if you so much as owned a car, let alone a house.

The problem, the HEART of the problem, can be found in the NATURE of the health insurance industry, and how it, by it's nature, derives its profits from NOT DELIVERING THE HEALTHCARE WE PAY FOR.

There is a MOUNTAIN of outrage required to overcome the *MAJOR* interests of the health insurance companies as well as the pharmaceutical companies, who know they'd be next in line if the former were addressed.

Also, there is a MOUNTAIN of Reagan age anti-government propaganda which would be needed to be overcome for many people to trust the government with such as thing (as they trust their social security checks to come in every 3rd?). Someone loses a letter in the mail, among the MILLIONS of letters delivered every day, and suddenly the USPS is no good because FedEx has such a better record delivering said parcel for only $20.00....

Ultimately, the problem here isn't dugggy, but it's the whole class of Americans like him. He is but a SYMPTOM of what we have to work WITH - like a infertile field. Don't blame the field for years of neglect and abuse. He's a product of what he's heard and read. We have to nurture people like dugggy, and guide the many people like him into a better world of understanding.

[SharonAnn]

16. So, if she loses her job then she would have no insurance? Nor would you?

And, you probably couldn't afford private insurance if you could even get it.

Yup, it's just a great system until the insurance company limits your choices, turns you down flat, refuses to write a policy for you, or you lose your job that provides the health insurance for you and your family.

[Clark2008]

18. Or work for a small company that can't afford to provide

health care for their employees.

[dugggy]

23. The government does provide health insurance...

to those of us over 65 who have paid medicare taxes.
The problem is there are very few doctors willing to accept
new medicare patients. They all have a few token patients and
they don't want any more. Why do you think a health coverage
for all people would work any better?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Because if national health care were the only show in town

doctors would have to take it.

And they'd be grateful to have only ONE form and procedure for receiving payment instead of half a dozen.

(My brother, who's a doctor in a solo private practice here, has to outsource his claims filing because there are so many potential payers that he'd have to hire another full-time person just to do insurance claims.)

[Hippo_Tron]

83. There's a solution to that, more doctors

Because doctors are scarce they can pick their patients, instead of the other way around.

[dugggy]

22. To my knowledge even the lowly paid Wal-Mart worker can get

health insurance. I have a great deal of empathy for those who
can not afford health insurance. But I have dealt with US Immigration
service, US post office, IRS, and I certainly don't wish to have
another government agency deciding how and when I should get medical
care.

[Vinca]

33. Which insurance company do you work for? nt

[Solon]

35. All I know is that anyone who either is unaware of Wal-Mart's shenanigans with Health insurance...

or thinks WE are profoundly ignorant on this issue is playing us for fools.

[dugggy]

65. Actually I get my hypertension medication from Wal-Mart for $4/30 days

supply. This is the price they charge for generic Lisinopril to every one. Insurance NOT required. That is
the only medication I need, but they have 2 or 3 hundred
commonly used medications on that $4 / 30 days supply
system. Now that is a price anybody should be able to
afford! Less than cost of a good hamburger for 30 days
of prescription medication!

[ima_sinnic]

87. those of us with a CONSCIENCE do not even get Rx's at Wal-Mart

I would not patronize the China outlet store if my life depended on it, literally. By the way, are you sure your medicine was made in the USofA? Good luck with that!

Target also offers $4 generic Rx's, and Rite-Aid also voluntarily "matched Wal-Mart" when I complained about their price. Since they can all charge $4, apparently the price is rigged excessively high to begin with.

[iverglas]

94. isn't it amazing?

I won't fault anyone who shops at Wal-Mart for necessities because of their own financial situation. I don't do it myself.

But did you read the lists of perks this fellow gets at his place of employment??

See posts 77 and 78 -- what his tax-funded employment comes with.

And then to have the complete absence of conscience to go and exploit a loss-leader at Wal-Mart, which Wal-Mart can afford, in part, because it pays its own employees so little that they can't afford the crappy health insurance plan their employer offers ... let alone having an employer-provided "child development centre" ...

Boggles the mind.



edit -- oops, he *worked* there ... and is now apparently experiencing the joys of not having all those perks. Hmm. Perhaps self-interest will prevail ...

[ima_sinnic]

96. yes, I saw that--& the fact that

he "was" (?) working in a taxpayer-funded job while dissing the idea of taxpayer-funded perks.

I hope I didn't sound judgmental when talking about Wal-Mart; I do understand the necessity for some to get Rx's there--(but Target does provide $4 scrips also, if that store is anywhere near). But for someone in a cushy job, who can get "nonessential" surgery, to pinch pennies by buying scrips at Wal-Mart--strange ...

[iverglas]

97. not at all!

I hope I didn't sound judgmental when talking about Wal-Mart

I was just prefacing my remark so that I wouldn't. ;)

For someone whose spouse works in the "business office of a medical practice" -- that Wal-Mart employees couldn't afford to patronize if their lives literally depended on it -- to leverage his/her buying power by helping Wal-Mart keep its employees' wages of necessity below rock bottom ...

Oops, I think I sound judgmental.

[dugggy]

64. None! I worked for Argonne Labs funded mostly by US Dept of Energy

Argonne employs about 5000 people, and I got to know
atleast a few hundred there. I don't recall anyone
complaining about the current medical delivery system.

[iverglas]

76. well there ya go

Argonne Labs funded mostly by US Dept of Energy

A private enterprise, funded by the government.

Just like doctors (and other service providers, like physiotherapists) and medical labs in Canada.

Isn't that amazing?

You've just talked yourself into supporting universal single public payer health insurance.

Oh, except that the health care providers etc. in Canada, for instance, are considerably freer to exercise their own discretion when it comes to the services they provide than the corporation you work for likely is.

Within the broad range of health care services funded by governments in Canada (they include vasectomies but not vasectomy reversals, e.g.), the service providers decide when to provide them, and to whom, and are then paid for their services. I assume that the corporation you work for takes a little more direction than that.

Funny how you actually do like having the gummint decide what to fund, and fund it, isn't it?

[FormerDittoHead]

77. Did you check out the benefits there (list and link)

All paid for by that "evil" government...

http://www.anl.gov/Careers/benefits.html

* Medical, including dependents
* Dental
* Long-term care
* Vision with (HMO plan)
* Basic life insurance
* Business travel accident insurance
* Retirement plan
* Holidays
* Vacation
* Sick leave
* Family leave
* Military leave
* Bereavement leave
* School Visitation leave
* Domestic Violence leave
* On-site child care center
* Adoption assistance program
* Employee assistance program
* Tuition remission through the University of Chicago
* Educational assistance
* Flexible spending accounts for health care and day care
* Group insurance discounts for automobile and homeowners, supplemental and dependent life and long-term disability insurance

[iverglas]

78. nice work if you can get it

And as the saying goes ... I'm all right, Jack, and fuck the rest o' you. Who are paying for it all, in this case.

Tax-funded everything for some, taxes and insurance premiums and co-pays and deductibles and ceilings for others. If they're lucky.

Yeah, he works for his benefits. Other people work too.


Hey, you left out:

Argonne's other on-site services include:

* Argonne Credit Union
* Argonne Child Development Center
* Argonne clubs ranging from sports and chess, to social and crafts.
* Cafeteria
* Restaurant
* Hotel
* Exercise facility
* Argonne Park

That gummint sure does fund some good stuff for some people.

[dugggy]

105. First, Argonne is NOT a private enterprise, 2nd, Argonne does

the highest caliber research in Science. It is a non-profit
research institute managed by University of Chicago. Obama
is a big fan of Argonne. And in order to attract the highest
caliber scientists, Argonne has to entice them with a very
attractive benefits package. If you are smart enough and can
demonstrate scientific achievments, you too can get a position
at Argonne.

Incidently, the first ever in the world nuclear reaction took
place under the direction of original Argonne scientists.

[Solon]

34. See that's the problem you have right there, disinformation...

The Government wouldn't be doing shit except for paying a bill, that's it. They would replace the INSURANCE COMPANIES, and, unlike the insurance companies, your doctor wouldn't need to get pre-approval from them for a medical procedure. You doctor, hospital, etc. would still be privately run, the biggest difference is that their billing departments would shrink down to practically nothing. You wouldn't even have to directly have contact with any government office, the most direct contact would probably be a UHC card you carry around in your wallet, probably with some information on it, like allergies to penicillin, etc.

Besides that, its not like waiting lists are unheard of here, its a scheduling problem, no more, no less. My Grandmother had to wait six months, here in the States, for knee surgery because the surgeon on "her plan" was booked. This isn't something that is solved by a private insurance plan, nor would it be solved by a Single Payer plan, however, at least you WILL get care as soon as possible, regardless of income level, employment, or whether you are insured under a publicly funded plan, you cannot say the same for the private plan.

As far as Wal-Mart workers, you forget that many states are investigating Wal-Mart over this very issue, basically telling workers to get on Medicare or Medicaid if they qualify, because the insurance plan, to put it bluntly, is useless and too expensive.

[dugggy]

67. I would be all for a single payer system if the following are addressed:

How will the US federal government, as the single payer (USSP)
will determine if claims made are legitimate or fraudulent?

As you might be aware fraud costs medicare and medicaid
Billions of dollars.

If the USSP has to monitor what is being paid out, which
I believe is an absolute necessity to control abuse and
fraud, could that delay approvals and payments?

Who will determine, based on funding available in the
USSP budget, which clais get paid, and if demand exceeds
the available funds, who will be in charge of rationing
the funds and how will that affect the individual patient?

It is obvious the USSP will save Billions in paper work
required by providers and patients. I am just very leery
of a giant government run beauracracy. OTOH there is no
doubt insurance companies are skimming Billions of
consumer health dollars.

It is a very COMPLEX problem and needs a well thought out
and complex solution.

[ProudDad]

75. Ok, I'll try

How will the US federal government, as the single payer (USSP)
will determine if claims made are legitimate or fraudulent?

=======
Medical records exist for every procedure. Audits would show this...


As you might be aware fraud costs medicare and medicaid
Billions of dollars.

=======
Fraud and inadvertent errors are estimated by the GAO to cost Medicare less than 1% of the total of payments. That's pretty damn good. That INCLUDES simple mistakes...

Here's Medicare's take on this:

"Most Medicare payment errors are simple mistakes and are not the result of physicians, providers, or suppliers trying to take advantage of the Medicare system. If you have a question or concern regarding a Medicare claim submitted on your behalf, you should discuss it directly with your physician, provider, or supplier that provided the service.

The vast majority of physicians, providers, and suppliers who serve people with Medicare are committed to providing high quality care to their patients and to billing the program only for the payments they have earned.

However, there are a few individuals who are intent on abusing or defrauding Medicare, cheating the program (and in some cases the people with Medicare who are liable for co-payments) out of millions of dollars annually. Medicare fraud takes a lot of money every year from the Medicare program. People with Medicare pay for it with higher premiums. This section of the website is dedicated to helping you to help Medicare to avoid making inappropriate payments to fraudulent entities."

http://www.medicare.gov/FraudAbuse/Overview.asp
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05855t.pdf

==========

If the USSP has to monitor what is being paid out, which
I believe is an absolute necessity to control abuse and
fraud, could that delay approvals and payments?

AUDIT - NOT MONITOR. As you can see from the above information from Medicare, "Most Medicare payment errors are simple mistakes and are not the result of physicians, providers, or suppliers trying to take advantage of the Medicare system."

This too is a RED HERRING...

===========

Who will determine, based on funding available in the
USSP budget, which clais get paid, and if demand exceeds
the available funds, who will be in charge of rationing
the funds and how will that affect the individual patient?

ALL CLAIMS will be paid and the payment percentages will be adjusted to supply what's needed...

===========

It is obvious the USSP will save Billions in paper work
required by providers and patients. I am just very leery
of a giant government run beauracracy. OTOH there is no
doubt insurance companies are skimming Billions of
consumer health dollars.

MEDICARE currently operates with an overhead of LESS THAN 3%. That's pretty damn efficient, ain't it. A hell of a lot better than the for-profit's 15-30 percent waste and abuse...

I collect Social Security. I have been THRILLED with the Social Security Administration. I was able to apply on-line, spent 1/2 hour at the SS office to show my birth certificate and have had my checks dropped into my checking account electronically every month without fail or delay...

I just moved to Arizona. I was hugely pleased with how easily and quickly I was able to obtain a new driver's license and re-register my vehicle here in AZ.

I spent a HELL of a lot less time at the Motor Vehicles Division than I have EVERY TIME I'VE tried to find anyone at Home Depot or Circuit City or CompUSA who would FUCKING WAIT ON ME who knew their ass from a hole in the ground!

So much for the government run bureaucracy being inferior to "private enterprise"!!!


---------

It is a very COMPLEX problem and needs a well thought out
and complex solution.

That's not true. Medicine and patient care are complex problems for which Nurses and Doctors train for years to solve. The health insurance mafia and big pharma ARE NOT complex problems, they are leeches. Paying for Health Care is NOT a complex problem, many states, MEDICARE and MEDICAID and the REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD have done a fine job of supplying examples for us to follow.

The infrastructure is ALREADY HERE for Universal, Single-Payer Health Care for everyone. We just need to remove the political obstacles and evil forces from the equation.



HR 676 - http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

Please read it, it's very short won't take you more than 4 or 5 minutes. Then let's talk... Ok :hi:

[dugggy]

79. You are not being realistic!

<<<ALL CLAIMS will be paid and the payment percentages will be adjusted to supply what's needed... >>>

There is no money tree in US Treasury building. They can
only spend what is authorized in the budget. Medicare is
already on schedule to go broke. So there will be rationing
of medical delivery. Happens all the time in socialized
medicine countries. Actually I have no problem with that
since medical services are getting too expensive in present
format.
=========================================================

<<<The health insurance mafia and big pharma ARE NOT complex problems, they are leeches. >>>

I will grant you insurance companies leech a lot of dollars.
But the US pharmaceutical outfits lead the world in developing sophisticated medications which save lives and
hospital costs. You won't get the research dollars if there
is no profit incentive. Almost all miracle drugs were
developed in US of A.
==========================================================
<<<So much for the government run bureaucracy being inferior to "private enterprise"!!!>>>

It will take estimated 4 months to get my passport
renewed. I call that government disfunction. I don't know
if you had to deal with IRS, but I have. It is a nightmare
to get their errors corrected. Approving and auditing
medical delivery bills is not as simple as printing a
SS check or drivers license.

Sure, cranking out drivers licenses is easy. They don't
even check if yo are a legal US citizen. As for social
security have any idea how many people are collecting
checks fraudulently? There are stories in the news about
family members collecting SS checks long after the recipient is dead. How about illegals collecting SS?

<<<Medicare>>

I wish I can opt out of medicare if they would pay me back
all the taxes I have paid over the years. It is a nightmare
to find a doctor who will accept new medicare patients.
The reason? Medicare pays below the cost of doing business.
Nobody wants medicare patients.

[bluethruandthru]

44. Your doctor will decide what medical treatment you get!

Not the government! Geez, why is this so hard for people to understand? Maybe because the insurance companies have dictated what medical treatment we get for so long that the concept of an actual DOCTOR..one who SEES YOU IN PERSON and doesn't work for an insurance company, is so foreign to us!
Who do you want to decide your treatment? Your doctor...or your insurance company? That's the real question.

[iverglas]

46. can I say it one more time?

Your doctor will decide what medical treatment you get!
Not the government!

Only, being Canadian, I'll say my doctor decides what medical treatment I get, not the government.

Nearly two years ago, in about late August, I started noticing a little smudge in my left eye vision. I ignored it. By mid-October, I suddenly wasn't seeing much out that eye. I went to my doctor a couple of days later. I asked for a referral specifically to my co-vivant's ophthalmologist, assuming I had a cataract, since he was already scheduled for cataract surgeries the following summer. That doc's a big hot-shot whom the co-vivant sees regularly because he's diabetic.

That doc couldn't see me for 4 months. Since cataract was just my own diagnosis and for all I knew I had eye worms, and since I really really couldn't see, I called my doc back. I got an appointment at the hospital eye clinic next business day. The doc who saw me there scheduled me for cataract surgery 5 weeks later.

Big wait, eh? Sheesh. And he could have got my co-vivant in at the same time, except he's basically just a big lazy lump and didn't have the bizarrely rapid onset of no-seeing I'd had, and was perfectly content to wait. We're both about 10 years too young for cataracts at all, of course ...

His mother has been diagnosed with lung cancer after first seeing her doctor about 6 weeks ago. She's had bone scan, MRI, lymph node biopsies, consultations with radiologist and a couple of others, and is waiting for the recommendation as to whether to have lung removal or radiation/chemo after getting the biopsy results (clear) last week. Whichever it is, we have no reason to forsee any lengthy wait time.

My dad's tale has been told here many times. From a recent post in the Canada forum, a summary -- all events are between early June 2002 and early March 2003:

Immediate physician care at a walk-in clinic in a small town when he had been feeling unwell for a few days and found his pulse to be bizarrely low when he tested it at a drug store (private doctor's office, services paid for by public health insurance plan, like all other services mentioned here); emergency hospital ECG and then ICU admission, all on the same afternoon; urgent pacemaker scheduling for three days later at the cardiac institute in the big city an hour away; long-distance ambulance rides. Had to be returned to small town hospital because found to have staph infection, surgery rescheduled 5 weeks later when treated, released from hospital to wait after a few days, had surgery as outpatient.

Followed a few months later by 6 weeks in hospital with too-late diagnosed metastacized melanoma that manifested in hip and shoulder bone breaks, internal medicine, orthopaedics and oncology care, biopsy, scans, x-rays, (no MRI although it was available on 3 days' notice: pacemaker), radiation therapy, no hip replacement (purely for pain relief -- although it was scheduled on 3 days' notice for a Sunday evening, his condition contraindicated it at the last minute), more long-distance ambulance transport, brief palliative care at home with all the hospital equipment and supplies and morphine drips he could eat, visiting nurse, and doctor on call.

With a grand total of $25 out of pocket at the end of it all because the govt seniors' drug plan didn't cover the particular form of a drug he was prescribed for anxiety while semi-conscious at the end.

My dad was a senior, with about $30,000 in savings, living on his Canada Pension (equivalent of social security: public pension plan).


Yes, there are unacceptable wait times in some areas and for some procedures. Yes, there are primary care physician and other personnel shortages here and there. No, people do not die for lack of medical care. And never once in any of these situations did a doctor have to get prior approval from an insurer, including "the government", to perform any of the services described, or wonder whether the bill would be paid.

And apart from the taxes we pay (and in a few provinces a very low premium, never more than $100/month for a family; and of course most provinces don't cover drugs), we pay nothing -- no premiums (including employer-paid premiums paid in the US which are obviously paid by employees with their labour), no deductibles, no co-pays, no what's left after the insurance max is maxed out.

Just for the information of anyone interested!

[dugggy]

80. The problem is few doctors are taking new patients on the current single payer

system also known as MEDICARE. Medicare payments do not
cover the cost of doing business, so doctors are avoiding
taking medicare patients. Now you wan to expand this type
of system on ALL people?

If the system is forced on the doctors, you will see a
nightmarish brain drain out of the medical field. You
will end up with doctors from 3rd world countries.

[SharonAnn]

48. Can get it IF the worker could afford it. Unfortuntely, most can't afford it.

Wal-Mart doesn't underwrite much of the cost.

[ProudDad]

57. C'mon

now these right-wing talking points are getting fucking ridiculous:

"But I have dealt with US Immigration service, US post office, IRS, and I certainly don't wish to have another government agency deciding how and when I should get medical care."

I'll try one more time to reason with you:

THE SINGLE-PAYER SYSTEM WILL ONLY HANDLE THE FINANCIAL ASPECTS AND CONTROL COSTS!!! It WILL NOT CHANGE THE HEALTH CARE DELIVERY SYSTEM except for the better -- less time and money spent on administrative bullshit for the insurance mafia, more leverage with big pharma and more money and time for patient care!

HR 676: http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

PLEASE read it and comment on the actual program if you care to but PLEASE stop with the RW bullshit lines...

Thanks :hi:

[Imagevision]

73. It's s-w-i-f-t-b-o-a-t-e-e time again...

[dugggy]

81. We already have a single payer system NOW!!!!! It is called MEDICARE

And medicare is in serious financial trouble.
I am on medicare and no doctor within 15 miles in
my city is taking new medicare patients. You call
that a success? I don't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. I thought you said you were 47

Now you claim to be on Medicare???

[dugggy]

98. I wont see 66 again, my friend! may be I look and feel 47 hehe

but I would never say I am 47. You must have seen some
other person's post. Medicare is lucky I don't cost them
much and still pay the current premium approaching $100/mo.

I try to stay healthy by walking 20 miles/week, do not
smoke, watch my weight, do not do drugs or abuse alcohol.
At 67 I feel as strong as when I was 47. Thank you Lord!

[SOS]

103. Post #31

"Ours has served me very well for 47 years"

Typo?

[dugggy]

104. That was 47 years since I immigrated to the USA

sorry for not making that more clear!

[booley]

100. Have you actually ever tried to get that?

Because I used to work for Wal Mart (twice in fact, at two different stores) and Walmart was really clever when it came to thier employees getting thier benefits.

Like for the health insurence. First you had to work a certain number of hours (which you may or may not be scheduled for.) and secondly, the co pay was so much that you had to give up a substantial amount of your pay.

If anyone here works for wal mart currently, I would be curious if they were still doing this.

[PA Democrat]

109. I'll bet Wal-Mart is happy that someone is gullible enough to believe their

propaganda commercials. Try reading this:

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/#healthcare

[ProudDad]

53. Universal Single-Payer will not change that part of the "system"

It will only make the good parts of the system available to everyone when they need it...

Please check out HR 676

The United States National Health Insurance Act, H.R. 676
(“Expanded & Improved Medicare For All”)

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

Single-Payer is only about FINANCING Health Care, not about how it's delivered.

I have some issues about corporate Health Care delivery but that's for another day...

I hope your wife's surgery went well...

:hi:

[killbotfactory]

54. I'm sure that comforts the 18,000 people who die every year due to lack of health insurance

Their families can finally sleep at night, I'm sure.

[iverglas]

58. this in itself is illuminating

My wife works in the business office of a medical practice.

Speaking as a Canadian, all I can think of is: what the hell is the business office of a medical practice??

(Of course, it also makes it plain that someone is not a disinterested party to the conversation.)


http://www.oma.org/pcomm/omr/may/04classifieds.htm

Accurate, quick Billing Agent with over 10 years OHIP billing and reconciliation experience, including EDT. Call ...

Billing agent — Electronic data transfer direct to MOHLTC for medical practitioners of all specialties, in all of Ontario. Multiple locums welcome. ...

... Physician Billing Services: EDT transfer to MOHLTC <Ministry of Health>, all medical specialist and locums welcome. Hospital billing experience. Accurate, reliable rates and references available. Please call ...

$No office staff? Losing money to stale-dated claims? Call ...

OHIP Billing Software — $199 per computer — ...

Precision medical billing services: 17 years experience in office/acute/chronic care. EDT/shadow billing. References available. ...

... OHIP Billing Software: Simple, easy to use and affordable. Ten years in business. ...

It seems that business offices have medical practices here, rather than the other way around.

I have a good friend who works for a sole practitioner doctor. She does his reception, bookings, and billing. Some doctors in small practices apparently farm their billing out. Probably doctors in a group practice have a staff member who handles billings.

Basically, to take Ontario as an example, the public plan has a tariff of fees for every service you can imagine.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/sob_mn.html

If you're a doctor, I figure you have someone who uses the software, punches in the patient's OHIP number and the identifying number for the service and the doctor's billing number, and the date and such like, and I imagine the fee is entered automatically, and you hit send. Then the plan pays you.

Imagine how costs could be reduced in the US if this were the procedure.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/349/8/768

ABSTRACT

Background
A decade ago, the administrative costs of health care in the United States greatly exceeded those in Canada. We investigated whether the ascendancy of computerization, managed care, and the adoption of more businesslike approaches to health care have decreased administrative costs.

Methods
For the United States and Canada, we calculated the administrative costs of health insurers, employers' health benefit programs, hospitals, practitioners' offices, nursing homes, and home care agencies in 1999. We analyzed published data, surveys of physicians, employment data, and detailed cost reports filed by hospitals, nursing homes, and home care agencies. In calculating the administrative share of health care spending, we excluded retail pharmacy sales and a few other categories for which data on administrative costs were unavailable. We used census surveys to explore trends over time in administrative employment in health care settings. Costs are reported in U.S. dollars.

Results
In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada's national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada's private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers' administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

Between 1969 and 1999, the share of the U.S. health care labor force accounted for by administrative workers grew from 18.2 percent to 27.3 percent. In Canada, it grew from 16.0 percent in 1971 to 19.1 percent in 1996. (Both nations' figures exclude insurance-industry personnel.)

Conclusions
The gap between U.S. and Canadian spending on health care administration has grown to $752 per capita. A large sum might be saved in the United States if administrative costs could be trimmed by implementing a Canadian-style health care system.

[FormerDittoHead]

62. I think you got it: "My wife works in the business office of a medical practice."

...with thanks from our cousin from the North for that good pickup!

For us Americans, check out:

http://sickocure.org/

and it's parent website at Physicians for a National Health Program:
http://www.pnhp.org

...and it's EXCELLENT resource of information for those citing the usual corporate / right wing talking points:
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php

[iverglas]

63. when I first signed on to DU 4 or 5 years ago

there was a vocal and active segment of the posting population that would argue against any form of publicly-administered health insurance/care at every turn. And even among the sympathetic, there were worries and what-ifs constantly expressed. We Canadians were constantly on call to debunk the noise.

I am impressed all to hell with the more recent situation. The number of people who can use universal single public payer health care in a sentence -- who know what it is, and who want it -- has exploded.

This is significant in several ways. One is that this means that the message is getting across and being understood -- the noise just isn't working as well any more. Another is that this seems to be symbolic of a rise in genuine commitment to the public welfare (as opposed to self-interest) on the part of a lot more people.

On the other hand, it might just be symbolic of how many people's lives have got vastly worse under Bush ...

No, really. And I am hugely glad to see this, also for more than one reason. Obviously, I don't like to know that there are millions of people in the US who are sick or bankrupt because they can't afford health care. But I also think that USAmericans need to experience some of the benefits of caring about and for one another before we're likely to see people in the US start caring about and for people outside its borders a little more than they do now, and experiencing universal health care could be just the ticket for that to start happening.

A little less exceptionalism, a little more being-in-the-world; a little less fear of somebody getting something I'm not getting, a little more solidarity. And that's what I'm seeing around DU these days when it comes to health care in the US. I think it's a generalizable process.

[FormerDittoHead]

68. I think you have a very good point. We're learning "It's all about me" really doesn't work... n/t

[ima_sinnic]

84. oh, I am sooo happy for you and your wife and her nonessential surgery

NOT

actually, I couldn't care less about me-firster, head-in-the-sand, selfish people like yourself.

As I sit here suspecting that I have a serious illness and absolutely no means to even have it diagnosed, and think about the fact that my only option, really, is to just give in to it if it is life-threatening, I feel nothing but hatred for short-sighted people who would deny the rest of us the "privilege" of getting medical care. It "works for you," therefore why bother trying to adapt it for those who have no insurance?

Happy trolling.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. And for the uninsured?

You got yours, they get theirs, right??

[nealmhughes]

17. Gee, I couldn't move my right hand or pick up a glass full of water and went to see the doctor.

Got right in the next day. Diagnosis: blockage of my left carotid artery, leading to minor stroke affecting the right side. Sent to see the surgical vascular specialist. Three weeks to tell me, no rotor rooter or Drano, had to learn to type and handwrite again on my own, and do the things we shall delicately term "personal hygiene," since I am right handed.
And that was with BC/BS!
And in Huntsville, Ala., not exactly Podunk for medical care. . . no one who was a specialist could see me in Birmingham or in Nashville, or even in Atlanta before the local surgeon! All booked solid for months in advance.
Cry me a river, medical insurance.
I can type again, but my handwriting looks like crap, if you squint you might make out a letter or two -- I might even make out a line or two now.

[emdee]

19. People won't fall for that ad....

Everyday Americans know the truth. It took three months to get a cancer diagnosis for my dad - he had to go through test after test rather than simply doing the biopsy to begin with. After he did get the diagnosis, there was a 2-month wait to see the oncologist. We always plan to wait in his office at least four hours past the scheduled appointment time - sometimes even longer.

I don't know where -as this ad insinuates- you can walk right in and be seen and treated. That's not even true when you walk into an ER. I've been in the ER for over 5 hours with someone who had such a high blood pressure that he was in danger of stroking or dying right there. I had to scream and tell the nurse that she didn't need a room just to take his blood pressure. As soon as she took it - they rushed him back.

The big-money ads against Moore won't fool most Americans who are living exactly what his movie portrays.

emdee

[KillCapitalism]

30. As a counter-point, put it this way...

Would you rather wait in line for a while or go bankrupt?

[drm604]

45. Yes.

If our lines are shorter (and I stress "if") maybe it's because we've kicked over 40 million people out of those lines.

[demodonkey]

49. Right now I have to wait forever. I have no insurance.

:cry:

[killbotfactory]

51. I wish I could afford to wait in line

Fucking criminals.

[MasonJar]

59. They can just drop dead, because anyone who sees the movie knows how the

companies do business.

[rocktivity]

61. The lines are shorter NOW because NOT EVERY AMERICAN IS INSURED!!!!

:banghead:
rocknation

[killbotfactory]

69. And they are not that short to begin with.

It's like these people have never been to an emergency room in a large city before.

Scheduling an appointment for a simple doctor can take weeks, plus hours waiting in the office once you get their.

And then you don't get to really choose, since a lot of insurance plans have "networks" which make it financially difficult to see whichever doctor you want.

That plus 40 million being excluded without health insurance, and many more with insurance not being able to afford the co-pays unless it is an emergency and have no choice.

All this plus thousands of dollars in fees you may or may not have to pay depending on your insurance companies mood that day, if it's something major, like a broken toe.

But, yeah, great system we have here... :eyes:

[ProudDad]

71. We have been trying for months to find a doctor

who will see us FOR CASH!!!!

We can't find one... The few who are out there are full up!!!!


FUCK THIS SYSTEM.

AND FUCK ANYONE IN THE ASS WITH A HOT POKER WHO wants this crap to continue...

You're GOD DAMN RIGHT, It's personal with me...


SINGLE-PAYER NOW!!!

HR 676 - http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_health_care.htm

[Imagevision]

72. Moore is sure to win an Oscar for SiCKO which will bring it back into the spotlight next March...

that's cool...

[bobbolink]

74. They're also paying trolls to disrupt and divide us.

Jes' sayin'.....

[ima_sinnic]

88. yes, there is at least one quite active in this thread ... (nt)

[Imagevision]

93. I'm surprised the swiftboatee's took so long, geeez! the cat is out of the bag, Moore-Leno tonight)

[sarcasmo]

95. Kick.

[AtomicKitten]

101. pathetic weasles

Moore is just a familiar target to the wingnuts who are too retarded to care about this issue. The GOP told them socialized medicine is evil and that's good enough for them.