DLC Supports Teacher Merit Pay

[draft_mario_cuomo]

Ed Kilgore (writing about a book calling for a "new politics" that spurns partisanship and advocates "third way" policies that split the difference between progressives and conservatives):

==But these distinctions between the two parties are of little interest to Satin. Having spent his entire political life outside conventional politics, Satin firmly believes that the current system can't lead to the moderate majority he wants. The most "radical" thing about Mark Satin's Radical Middle is the extraordinary depth of the author's belief that identifying solutions to America's problems depends on spurning conventional party politics.

This is a curious charge, given that the bulk of the "radical middle" ideas he champions are, in fact, policies that New Democrat thinkers and politicians (and their center-left counterparts in Europe and elsewhere) have been pushing for years: universal access to private health insurance, a universal system of national service, merit pay to attract and reward good teachers, stakeholder grants to expand the "ownership class," affirmative-action efforts focused on economic disadvantage, not race, a military strategy that allows for humanitarian interventions, a pro-trade agenda for combating the causes of terrorism in the developing world, aggressive but regulated support for biotechnological research, and political reforms like non-partisan redistricting, among other standards. Satin does a good job in laying out these "third way" policies concisely, and his advocacy is more than welcome. But his insistence that these policies cannot be implemented by the conventional parties is just plain bizarre. Many of these same ideas can be found in Sen. Kerry's platform. ==

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=85&subid=65&contentid=252716

A 1999 article in favor of merit pay (praising a scheme in which teacher's had a say in designing the merit pay system and a merit pay program launched by DLCer Gray Davis):

==By Theo Yedinsky

Teachers unions traditionally have loathed proposals to tie their members' salaries or raises to measures of student or school achievement. They have continually denounced merit pay plans as being unscientific, too subjective, and unfair because they hold teachers accountable for factors beyond their control. ==

==In another sign that the tide may be turning in favor of merit pay, business, education, and government leaders meeting at the third National Education Summit in October called for a 10-state experiment in performance-based pay for teachers. And in California, New Democrat Gov. Gray Davis recently approved $50 million for one-time bonuses of up to $25,000 for teachers in underachieving schools where students show substantial gains.==

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=1056&kaid=110&subid=135

A 2000 DLC "idea of the week" piece on merit pay:

==Once the system is fully phased in, all Cincinnati teachers will be regularly and systematically evaluated on 16 criteria of teaching excellence and classified as an apprentice, a novice, an advanced, or an accomplished teacher, with pay tied to performance. Outstanding teachers can advance to the top of the pay grade within five years (and can get accelerated interim pay raises by asking for more frequent evaluations). Experienced teachers can lose pay, or their jobs, for bad evaluations. The only credentials that will guarantee more pay are advanced degrees in the subject area for which the teacher is responsible. And the evaluation area given the most weight in the system, "teaching to learn," focuses on subject-matter mastery.

The new Cincinnati system, while revolutionary in its scope, is not perfect. Cincinnati will not directly link teacher evaluation and pay to objective measurements of student achievement, a shortcoming that Assistant Superintendent Kathleen Ware acknowledged and addressed in talking to the Cincinnati Enquirer: ==

==Interestingly enough, Vice President Al Gore addressed the teacher merit pay issue in a recent and little-reported speech to the Michigan Education Association. He called specifically for subject-matter competency testing for teachers, and more controversially, for linking teacher pay to student achievement.

We agree with Gore, especially in his blunt and direct linkage of better rewards for teachers with more accountability for competency and results--"invest more in teachers and schools and demand more in return."==

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=393&kaid=110&subid=135

[mitchtv]

1. Asskissing 101

will be the favorite class. That is, until the first session of AK47

[draft_mario_cuomo]

2. Mitt Romney and Richard Nixon support merit pay

==By Vivian Troen and Katherine C. Boles | September 28, 2005

GOVERNOR MITT Romney, proving the axiom that no bad idea stays dead forever, has proposed a merit pay scheme for teachers that pretends to be a bold new initiative for education reform. While it may be bold, it is far from new. If implemented, it is destined to be an expensive failure.


The idea of merit pay, sometimes called pay for performance, was born in England around 1710. Teachers' salaries were based on their students' test scores on examinations in reading, writing, and arithmetic. The result was that teachers and administrators became obsessed with financial rewards and punishments, and curriculums were narrowed to include only the testable basics.

So drawing, science, and music disappeared. Teaching became more mechanical as teachers found that drill and rote repetition produced the ''best" results. Both teachers and administrators were tempted to falsify results, and many did. The plan was ultimately dropped, signaling the fate of every merit plan initiative ever since.

Nonetheless, merit pay plans of all kinds continue to resurface, since the paucity of new ideas in public education narrows the thinking of policymakers and sooner or later propels all old plans to the front, regardless of their sad history. In 1969, President Richard Nixon championed a plan he called ''performance contracting," in which it soon became apparent that financial incentives not only failed to produce expected gains but also generated damaging educational practices such as falsifying school records and teaching to the test to boost scores artificially. The inability of contractors to develop innovative teaching strategies and the dismal results of the program eventually doomed performance contracting, and it was declared a failure. So much for learning from history.==

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2005/09/28/how_merit_pay_squelches_teaching/

[draft_mario_cuomo]

3. * Aims to Expand System of Merit Pay

* eventually succeeded... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/18/AR2005071801476.html

[ulysses]

4. let's tie public defender pay to the number of cases won.

Or pay for doctors who treat patients on Medicare/Medicaid to the number of illnesses.

Then I *might* consider merit pay for teachers.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

6. How about merit pay for senators?

It would be hard to implement for Republican and DLC governors who love it, since you cannot directly compare their performance to anyone but surely we can implement it in the senate. Should a freshman senator who does nothing at his job get the same pay as Ted Kennedy?

[ulysses]

8. excellent idea.

Better yet, I'm even beginning to think that the best thing might be to open up the pay scale to the free market that these blowhards love so much. How much is it *really* worth to the average Joe to have his kid well educated?

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Psychologists should be paid for the number of happy patients

Dentists for reduced cavities

I like this game.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

5. GOP legislature scraps Jeb Bush's merit pay in education program

==TALLAHASSEE --
In a surprising reversal, the Republican-controlled Legislature is moving quickly to scrap a controversial merit pay system for teachers that lawmakers put in place less than a year ago.

Republican legislators are not abandoning the idea of awarding bonuses to teachers. But the turnabout represents a rejection of ideas first pushed by the administration of former Gov. Jeb Bush -- and even includes some minor tweaks to Bush's ''A+ Plan'' that was adopted eight years ago.

Teachers across the state have responded angrily to the merit pay program that was approved by lawmakers last spring, saying it doesn't reward enough teachers and is based largely on student test results. Some school boards, such as Broward County's, have refused to carry it out, which could cost them millions of dollars from the state.

''You can't find five teachers in Florida who can tell you how it works,'' said Sen. Don Gaetz, a Fort Walton Beach Republican and former school superintendent.==

http://www.susanohanian.org/show_inthenews.html?id=425

[Alexander]

7. The DLC? In that case I have to rule out the three front-runners...

Since two of them were/are in the DLC, and the other supports "merit pay".

Be careful what you wish for.

[ulysses]

9. ah, but we've been reminded all these years

not to toss a candidate for past indiscretions. I have no problem with Edwards.

[Alexander]

139. I do. His words don't match his actions.

His voting record is not that different from Hillary Clinton's, despite how he talks.

[Milo_Bloom]

10. So?

Why does who have and/or support an idea in and of itself tell you anything about the idea?

[ulysses]

13. if I'm parsing your (oddly phrased) question correctly,

when *doesn't* the source of an idea tell you about the idea itself?

[Milo_Bloom]

14. All the time.

The source of an idea means absolutely nothing to me.

Pat Robertson could have a good idea.

I am willing to listen to ideas from ANYONE.

Afterall, isn't that what we have been complaining about with this administration for the last 6 years? They won't even listen to opposition concepts? How hypocritical can we be?

[ulysses]

15. no, not really.

Afterall, isn't that what we have been complaining about with this administration for the last 6 years? They won't even listen to opposition concepts?

No, I never expected him to do that.

So, you can listen uncritically to Karl Rove's newest idea for, say, triumph in Iraq? More power to you.

[Milo_Bloom]

16. So you like bitter partisanship, eh?

So you are glad that bush never listens to the opposition and don't want him to consider ideas from across the aisle?

Good to know.

And, yes, I am perfectly willing to LISTEN to Karl Rove's ideas. I haven't heard a good one out of him yet, but I am ALWAYS willing to listen.

[ulysses]

17. I'm quite partisan.

I can take or leave the bitter part, but I know where I stand, yes. You should have asked that earlier - I'm more than happy to admit it.

So you are glad that bush never listens to the opposition and don't want him to consider ideas from across the aisle?

Did you ever really think he would?

And, yes, I am perfectly willing to LISTEN to Karl Rove's ideas.

Don't forget the part about listening *critically*. Hell, I'll listen to Rove, but I'll listen differently than I will to someone on my side.

[Milo_Bloom]

18. Its all about listening.

You can listen SKEPTICALLY all you want.

However, the problem is "X said it, therefore it is wrong" is fundamentally flawed, which is what this whole post is about.

It names the SOURCES of the statements uses the SOURCES to attempt to discredit the CONCEPT.

[ulysses]

19. again, no.

However, the problem is "X said it, therefore it is wrong" is fundamentally flawed, which is what this whole post is about.

No. Merit pay has already been shown to be a resoundingly stupid idea. The fact that the DLC supports it reflects on them, not on the idea. It's more, "X said it, therefore X is stupid". See?

[Milo_Bloom]

20. Completely irrelevant

You may think it has shown to be a bad idea, but that remains to be seen. However, the point here is that this particular post has nothing to do with the idea.

It instead claims that the idea is flawed based solely on who proposed it. That is incorrect.

[ulysses]

21. no, it's been shown.

The DLC is stupid for promoting a stupid idea.

[Milo_Bloom]

22. Hardly.

I have seen nothing proving any such thing.

[ulysses]

23. you're not reading, then.

[Milo_Bloom]

24. Sure I am. I have seen some opinions...

But no proof.

Most people like to fall back on the good old, "the DLC said it, therefor it is flawed" (like this thread), which doesn't prove the point.

[ulysses]

27. take the DLC out of it then.

It still won't work.

[Milo_Bloom]

28. Why?

Prove it without ANY reference to the source.

[ulysses]

29. easy.

I taught for three years in an urban middle school that hasn't made adequate yearly progress under NCLB except once since AYP was instituted. What are you going to base my pay on if I'm teaching there? Test scores, most likely. Therefore, I'm going to head for "higher ground", much as I might like to stay and work with the kids who need it most, so that my family doesn't take a hit. The district still needs to staff that school, so they do it with increasing numbers of new teachers, many of whom will get their asses kicked in that environment. Instruction continues to suffer. We call it the "Matthew effect" - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

There.

[Milo_Bloom]

30. Nice assumption... but therein lies the problem.

Within your statement, you state how you ASSUME it will be implimented. "What are you going to base my pay on if I'm teaching there? Test scores, most likely."

Here, you offer only one way of implimenting the idea and based on that implimentation, reject the entire concept. This is exactly what I am talking about.

Progress has to be measured in different ways in different areas, as each area has different challenges to overcome and success in one doesn't = success in the other.

Attendence may be a better way to judge more troubled schools.

In troubled school you are probably likely to have a truancy problem. Reducing truancy could be a basis for "merit pay".

You have to seperate the concept "merit pay" from the poor implimentation of it, "test scores alone".

[ulysses]

31. ok, so let's talk about reducing truancy.

You're correct, it was a big problem in that school. It was also a problem over which I had very little direct control - I could call parents (assuming that the phone hadn't been shut off again) and plead with them, or I could try to swing by the apartment or house before I got to school, but given that I had a duty post at which I had to be present before the kids were due to arrive, that's of limited value.

So, we're going to determine my pay based on a factor over which I have almost no control at all. Great. Any other ideas?

[Milo_Bloom]

32. And herein lies the problem...

"You're correct, it was a big problem in that school. It was also a problem over which I had very little direct control "

So you are saying that you had no control over getting kids to want to come to school? You don't see a problem with this statement at all?

This is where I was discussion taking some blame in the matter. Teachers can't just say "the system is screwed and I can't get the kids into class, so give me more money so I can do it". Solutions to these problems need to come from the people closest to the problem... in this case... teachers. Paying teachers more money isn't going to make kids come to school.

If there is merit pay attached to it, would it be possible to get teachers together to come up with ideas to get kids into school? To give parents incentive for getting kids to school? There are conepts and ideas that work here and the teachers are the best ones to come up with those ideas.

You can't just shrug a problem like that off and say "well, I have no control so why work on it."

[ulysses]

33. this is really revealing. thank you.

So you are saying that you had no control over getting kids to want to come to school? You don't see a problem with this statement at all?

I would suggest that you have not a single clue what it's like teaching in a school like that. Do you really think that these kids didn't want to come to school because I'm not offering engaging lessons? Or because I'm not being fun? I teach special education kids, and at that school, they often came from deeply violent homes, they often came with no food in their bellies, and more often than not they came from parents who were themselves functionally illiterate and who had not enjoyed school. For three years I worked my ass off with kids who couldn't spell their own names reliably in fucking middle school, trying to help them comprehend grade-level texts. I have worked, and will continue to work, with children whose peers actively denigrate learning, with children for whom the street constantly reaches out, with its promises of money and prestige, trying to get them to understand how to graph inequalities and how to decipher an author's point of view. I have worked, and will continue to work, with children who have been told by society that they can't learn and shouldn't try since they were in pre-kindergarten.

And you have the monumental balls to suggest that it's my fault that they don't want to come to school? Fuck that. Fuck that.

[Milo_Bloom]

34. Get over yourself...

Get off the indignation, because no one said it is YOUR fault.

The problem I am pointing is out is when people absolve themselves of ANY responsibility, which is what you did in your previous post. "I have no control". (of course you offered none of the special circumstances in your situation and then acted as if that should have been known.) However, the answer is that you have SOME control and SOME say in matters and solutions to the problems have to COME FROM YOU and your PEERS.

Truancy is a problem. How would YOU solve it?

Drop the phony indignation and acting as if anyone should have known your personal situation and offer a solution to the problem stated.

[ulysses]

35. I don't need to get over anything, thanks.

because no one said it is YOUR fault.

Didn't you just suggest that truancy would be a fine basis for merit pay?

of course you offered none of the special circumstances in your situation and then acted as if that should have been known

I'm not the one championing a merit pay system based on truancy. Seems to me that it's incumbent on you to understand what the hell you're talking about, and you don't.

Truancy is a problem. How would YOU solve it?

Short of paying children to attend school, I don't know. The problem is beyond my ability as a teacher and single citizen to solve, because it is rooted in the circumstances from which these kids come. I do my best to promote liberal agendas that might make things better in that regard, but I live in Georgia. How would YOU solve it?

Drop the phony indignation and acting as if anyone should have known your personal situation and offer a solution to the problem stated.

I love this - solve a longstanding problem in one fell swoop or accept the goodness of merit pay. :eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

36. Uh huh

"Didn't you just suggest that truancy would be a fine basis for merit pay?"

Yes.

I'm not the one championing a merit pay system based on truancy. Seems to me that it's incumbent on you to understand what the hell you're talking about, and you don't."

It was in response to you only assuming that test scores are the only possible way to distribute merit pay and to show you that this assumption is incorrect.

Short of paying children to attend school, I don't know. The problem is beyond my ability as a teacher and single citizen to solve, because it is rooted in the circumstances from which these kids come. I do my best to promote liberal agendas that might make things better in that regard, but I live in Georgia. How would YOU solve it?
Work within the "circumstanes", tie rewards to attendance for both child and parent. There are tons of possible solutions and that is up to the teachers as a group to work on in each area. Which will be easier with more money which could come in the form of "merit pay" for the result.


I love this - solve a longstanding problem in one fell swoop or accept the goodness of merit pay.

No, its called drop the phony indigiation, the HOW DARE YOU moment when you use a specific personal situation to try and win a debate b/c you can't argue the actual merits anymore. I don't care about your personal situation... the discussion is about the concept of "merit pay" and how it doesn't have to be implimented the way you assumed and that because it can be implimented in many different ways, the basic concept isn't all bad.

Further, it is about the fact that teachers, as part of the education system, should accept SOME responsibility for the failures within the system, instead of writing it off as completely beyond their control.

No one person or group is to BLAME, but to say that one group is completely free of all responsibility is equally as clueless as claiming one person is group is solely to blame.

[ulysses]

37. ok, then.

It was in response to you only assuming that test scores are the only possible way to distribute merit pay and to show you that this assumption is incorrect.

Do you have any other criteria on which you'd like to base my pay?

Work within the "circumstanes", tie rewards to attendance for both child and parent. There are tons of possible solutions and that is up to the teachers as a group to work on in each area. Which will be easier with more money which could come in the form of "merit pay" for the result.

So we *should* pay kids to come to school? And the pay comes out of the merit increase we get?

I don't care about your personal situation

Again, this is revealing. Thank you. Evidently, merit pay wouldn't affect anyone's personal situation.

the discussion is about the concept of "merit pay" and how it doesn't have to be implimented the way you assumed and that because it can be implimented in many different ways, the basic concept isn't all bad.

So how should it be implemented?

Further, it is about the fact that teachers, as part of the education system, should accept SOME responsibility for the failures within the system, instead of writing it off as completely beyond their control.

How should I remedy things that are beyond my control? I'll await your response.

[Milo_Bloom]

38. ....

Do you have any other criteria on which you'd like to base my pay?

Yes. It will depend upon facts and circumstances.

So we *should* pay kids to come to school? And the pay comes out of the merit increase we get?

Rewards don't have to be financial, but if so, yes it should.

Again, this is revealing. Thank you. Evidently, merit pay wouldn't affect anyone's personal situation.

Of course it would. It just isn't relevant to this discussion.

So how should it be implemented?

depends upon facts and cirumcstances

How should I remedy things that are beyond my control? I'll await your response.

Find a way to take control.

[ulysses]

39. LOL

Do you have any other criteria on which you'd like to base my pay?

Yes. It will depend upon facts and circumstances.

Do tell.

So we *should* pay kids to come to school? And the pay comes out of the merit increase we get?

Rewards don't have to be financial, but if so, yes it should.

So how are you not in favor of destroying the public school system?

Again, this is revealing. Thank you. Evidently, merit pay wouldn't affect anyone's personal situation.

Of course it would. It just isn't relevant to this discussion.

How is it not relevant?

So how should it be implemented?

depends upon facts and cirumcstances

I seem to have heard this before. I call bullshit.

How should I remedy things that are beyond my control? I'll await your response.

Find a way to take control.

Right.

[Milo_Bloom]

40. ...

Do tell.

Already did above.

So how are you not in favor of destroying the public school system

Because I am not.

How is it not relevant?

Because it isn't. It is a discussion about the topic in general.

I seem to have heard this before. I call bullshit.

Call it what you want. Doesn't really matter. That is the way most things are done.

[ulysses]

41. guess you have nothing to add.

I think this means you lose.

[Milo_Bloom]

42. Ask a new question....

Answering the identical questions over and over again is pointless, so I am just giving stock answers at this point. If you have something that hasn't already been handled, I will answer it.

[ulysses]

43. ok. how will merit pay increase student learning?

[Milo_Bloom]

45. Simple

It will in some cases increase teacher interest AND potentially parent involvement (since people will have reasoned criteria upon which to judge progress... set by the specific community based upon facts and cirumcstances specific to that community.)

Having more motivated teachers, working individually or preferably as a group, coming up with problems and solutions upon which "merit pay" can be based will create a better overall atmosphere.

For example, say "poor attendance at after school programs" is designated as a problem in a particular community and is blamed for juvenile crime in the area.

Teachers can get together and develop a program to solve this problem and tie merit pay to the outcome. If their solution results in a 20% increase in attendance in after school programs, they receive X amount of merit pay. a 40% increase, higher amount of Merit pay.

It is up to people at the local level to identify problems specific to their community and for those same people (teachers, interested parents if any can be found) to devise potential solutions to those problems). Then work to tie the merit pay system to the problem's solution and accepted measurable results.

If problems are identified correctly, they will lead to more interested students and thus, better performance.

[ulysses]

46. ...

Having more motivated teachers, working individually or preferably as a group, coming up with problems and solutions upon which "merit pay" can be based will create a better overall atmosphere.

You assume that teachers are unmotivated. This is probably your initial mistake.

[Milo_Bloom]

47. Hardly a mistake...

Here we go again... Sorry I didn't repeat everything I have already stated so as to qualify every single statement. As I have stated before, this isn't the majority, but even a relatively small % can cause huge problems in the system.

SOME teachers are unmotivated, not all, not even a majority, but unfortunately, enough to make that one of the problems that should be addressed.

[ulysses]

49. ok...some teachers are unmotivated

so we should base *all* teacher pay on a merit scale.

Is that a fair characterization of your position?

[Milo_Bloom]

50. No, not even close

Helping motivation is 1 part of what merit pay helps provide.

With teachers who are already motivated, it will help them to earn additional money for doing the same good job they are already doing and allow good thoughts, ideas and solutions to be further rewarded, as it is not being rewarded in the current system.

[ulysses]

53. so, under your plan,

would all teachers be paid on a merit plan, or just some? If just some, then who?

[Milo_Bloom]

58. As said before... Depends on facts and circumstances

[ulysses]

59. it always does for you.

[Milo_Bloom]

64. As it does for EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE.

[ulysses]

yet not all use it as an all-inclusive escape route.

[Milo_Bloom]

69. Not an escape route... reality.

[ulysses]

73. what reality?

[Milo_Bloom]

74. That many answers depend on specific facts and cirumstances.

[ulysses]

78. ok - what specific facts and circumstances?

[Milo_Bloom]

84. Community, students, area...

Different children and different areas have different needs.

You can't have a one size fits all merit pay program, they have to be developed at the local level, because the needs of Beverly Hills CA are way different than the needs of North Richland Hills TX as are different than the needs of Macon GA.

The needs of AP students are different than the needs of special ed kids, which are different than the needs of gang risk children, etc..

Each area has special needs and should be able to develop their own programs to deal with those needs.

THAT is facts and circumstances.

[LWolf]

52. Does the possibility of merit pay "motivate" you, Uly?

I have yet to meet a teacher motivated by merit pay. Having actually RECEIVED merit pay once, I can tell you that it was more insulting than motivating. The state of CA thought my "merit" was worth less than $2, lol.

Frankly, teachers know that "merit pay" is not about motivating them, but about dividing them. Creating competitors. Instead of a group of people who work together for the good of ALL students, merit pay hopes to set up conditions that encourage teachers to work to promote "their" students more than others.

That's not, frankly, public education. Public education can, and will, never be successfully reformed through the business model.

You can't run public education like a business. A business has to standardize the materials and recipes they use to produce their products. Public education cannot, and will not, turn away students because they don't meet a production standard. A business competes. That means undermining the competition when possible. Public education cannot, and will not, ever be about undermining some students to make others look better.

That's the key, isn't it? The "business model" of education ignores the student component of the plan, and focuses everything on the teacher. Falsely promotes the idea that a good teacher can produce a higher scoring product than a poor teacher no matter what materials and tools he/she has to work with.

Public education isn't a business. It's not about ranking people. It's about equal opportunity, not equal performance.

[ulysses]

55. of course it doesn't.

It assumes that I'm not already doing everything I can, and would do more for more carrot.

Public education can, and will, never be successfully reformed through the business model.

This should be branded on the forehead of every representative in the country.

[LWolf]

62. Yes. At least on the billboards closest to school buildings.

You've made another important point. It's just plain WRONG to assume that a teacher isn't doing his or her best given the working parameters.

So, you don't feel motivated to run faster for that carrot? :D

[Milo_Bloom]

61. Yet, there are some.

"I have yet to meet a teacher motivated by merit pay."

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10715FA395B0C7B8DDDAF0894DF404482

[LWolf]

66. I'll believe that when an actual teacher tells me so.

I'm meeting with several hundred of them from all over my state next week. I'll do a survey, and post the results. :D

[Milo_Bloom]

70. Cool. Be honest.

[LWolf]

81. Of course. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Ulysses and I are both special ed teachers

Our students will NEVER earn us any money if our pay is based on their achievement.

So of course we both strongly oppose the idea of merit pay.

[ulysses]

63. of course,

this will lead directly to the idea of leaving our kids behind.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Yes since they are not already left behind

:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. When you tie teacher pay to attendance, you are making it our fault

when they don't come to school. And like Ulysses said, we have very little control over that.

If you really want to solve the problem of truancy, you need to make it uncomfortable for kids to be absent. Hire many many more truancy officers who go to the homes and the shopping malls and the street corners and give them the legal power to drag these kids to school.

Fine the parents who allow their kids to be chronically absent. Involve the family court in this process.

Hire social workers and counselors to work with families and students.

Reduce class size so kids get more attention and develop stronger relationships with teachers.

Reduce the size of schools so kids can be placed in smaller learning communities with better administrative support for kids who have attendance problems.

Don't pay teachers for attendance of kids. All of the strategies I have suggested will cost money. Now I will let someone else suggest where this money can be found.

[ulysses]

57. (shock and surprise) what you ask

means more money! We can pay kids to come to school, but hire professionals to actually deal with a problem? I feel faint!

[Milo_Bloom]

67. The money can be found in merit pay!

Amazing that.

[ulysses]

71. and that's the hilarious part.

We get merit pay for increased student attendance, in your plan, as long as we pay the students out of our own pockets to attend school.

Whee!

[Milo_Bloom]

75. Wrong.

That was your false interpretation of what I said.

[ulysses]

76. so what's the correct interpretation?

[Milo_Bloom]

80. Do I have to say everything twice and 3 times??

I never suggested paying them. I mentioned a potential reward structure and then stated that "reward" does not have to be financial.

What would be an appropriate reward structure depends on specific facts and cirumstances in the specific community.

[ulysses]

83. what would be an appropriate reward structure in my old zone?

You seem to have a knowledge of these things.

[Milo_Bloom]

86. That would be YOUR JOB and the job of your PEERS.

You worked there, you know the challenges. How would you overcome them? Or do you just throw your hands in their air and say it can't be done?

One way to impliment a "merit pay" program is to have people at the local level develop the program they best feel will work and have them impliment it and then reward them based on the success of that program.

[ulysses]

92. that's some prime chickenshit.

Yeah, I know the challenges. I have some ideas about how to overcome them, but they would take time, maybe decades if they did work. I suspect that you're not willing to wait that long or even put the resources into my suggestions, and even if you were, NCLB isn't.

Your plan is all about teacher responsibility and no teacher power.

[Milo_Bloom]

94. BS.

Its ALL about empowering teachers and putting them in control.

You just refuse to understand it because it has the word "merit pay" attached to it and nothing that has those words could ever be good, because someone from the GOP used them.

Phony indignation only goes so far... When you offer some actual solutions, let me know.

[ulysses]

96. right, because "get results or else we dock your pay"

is ALL about empowering teachers. :rofl:

[Milo_Bloom]

98. Wrong again...

Read more closely.

[ulysses]

100. I'd love to get your thoughts on this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3401962

[Milo_Bloom]

103. 100% Fair

I think congress is WAY overpaid for a poorly done job.

I WISH someone in power would propose merit pay at that level, because it is NECESSARY.

People should vote on an individual, a platform and a pay structure, and they only get paid based on what they accomplish.

[LWolf]

111. Ideas are great, aren't they?

I've got some great ideas, too.

Since ideas require funding and permission, and since those things are scarce, all the ideas in the world aren't going to make it happen.

I suppose next it will be our job to personally clean up every neighborhood housing our students, provide their food, shelter, daycare, and healthcare, and "convince" the rest of the world that they are worth supporting. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. If you pay the teachers, there won't be much left for the programs I suggested

Do you understand much about school financing? I think perhaps you don't.

[Milo_Bloom]

77. Yes, I do.

The problem that many people have with the financing is that people don't tie results to the funds. That is what Merit Pay is all about and if used properly is a valuable tool.

Design a program, state a cost and a result and tie aspects of the payment to the success of the result and you will see attitudes among those who control the financing change.

[ulysses]

79. and you *still* don't have the first fucking clue about special ed kids.

[Milo_Bloom]

82. There is the phony indignation again...

Again, I don't care one bit about your specific situation.

Merit pay programs can be designed with the specific facts and cirumcstances in mind. So, special ed teachers can work together to tailor a plan that makes sense in a special ed situation.

That is what facts and circumstaces means.

[ulysses]

85. I know you don't

Again, I don't care one bit about your specific situation.

That's because you don't give two shits about the actual kids involved.

Merit pay programs can be designed with the specific facts and cirumcstances in mind. So, special ed teachers can work together to tailor a plan that makes sense in a special ed situation.

So design it, Einstein. You understand these issues far better than I do as a mere teacher. Please, lend me your wisdom.

[Milo_Bloom]

87. Wrong again...

YOU design it. YOU identify the problem. YOU and your peers work on a solution. YOU set the goals and then GET PAID if you achieve the goals.

[ulysses]

91. you're copping out.

I'm in there trying to make things better. You evidently know better than I do how to work things, and would like to control my finances accordingly, so let's see your solutions.

[Milo_Bloom]

93. No, YOU control your finances.

And that is the concept you refuse to grasp here.

In this thread you haven't offered one single solution, just complained about the things over which "you have no control".

I am not pitching a one size fits all solution, as you seem to try and want to force so you can try and find an example where it doesn't apply.

Instead I am discussing the reasoning behind a nationally and locally funded merit pay system where the specific programs are designed by people to cater to the specific facts and circumstances they face. In short, you identify the problem, offer the solution and get paid for results.

[ulysses]

95. no, what you're pitching

is a situation in which teachers and schools are responsible for solving problems that are beyond their grasp. It's that simple.

In this thread you haven't offered one single solution, just complained about the things over which "you have no control".

I struggle every working day with problems that have no easy solution. At least I'm honest about it. I haven't seen your solutions, aside from diddling with teacher pay in the hope that that "incentive" will result in heretofore unimagined ideas.

[Milo_Bloom]

97. That's sad.

"is a situation in which teachers and schools are responsible for solving problems that are beyond their grasp. It's that simple"

Those who are closest to problems are best able to tackle them.

Trying to push it off on people not directly involved is what leads to further problems.

Now, I understand why you have so many problems with this, you don't want the responsibility.

[ulysses]

99. it is sad

that I can't wave a magic wand and give the kids I teach the preschool experiences that would help them be successful. Those are the problems I tackle daily.

Trying to push it off on people not directly involved is what leads to further problems.

Wow - the recognition that the lack of preschool experiences impacts learning leads to further problems? *That's* sad.

Now, I understand why you have so many problems with this, you don't want the responsibility.

Over things I can't possibly control as a teacher, no, I don't. Maybe I'm unusual in that respect.

[Milo_Bloom]

101. What is sad is that you don't believe you don't have control.

When you are in fact in the position to have the most.

[ulysses]

102. how should I exercise that control?

What would you have me do? I'm asking for specifics here.

[Milo_Bloom]

104. All the ways I have outlined...

In a proper system, you are the one best able to offer and work to execute solutions, because you are closest to the problems.

[ulysses]

105. where I grew up,

we call that "tying your own noose".

[Milo_Bloom]

107. And where i grew up...

We call it taking initiative.

[ulysses]

109. well hell, what was I thinking?

I'll just take the initiative and make things better! It's as easy as that! They'll have to follow my lead - some guy from a Berke Breathed strip says so!

[Milo_Bloom]

112. Yeah, just roll over and take it...

It is SO much better that way.

[ulysses]

113. can I get a reach-around?

It's easier to take that way.

[Milo_Bloom]

115. Like I said... just give up.

[ulysses]

116. LOL!

You don't know me very well. :D

[Milo_Bloom]

117. Sure I do... You have no control.

[ulysses]

119. no, I recognize the limits of what I do control.

This seems to be a difficult concept for some.

[Milo_Bloom]

120. Like I said... just give up.

[ulysses]

122. odd that you're so interested in having me give up.

Why is that?

[Milo_Bloom]

123. Because you have no control... why try if you have no control?

[ulysses]

124. because I have little control over student attendance,

I should just give up?

Like I said, you don't know me very well.

[Milo_Bloom]

125. Yep, why try if you have no control? Just give up.

[ulysses]

126. you remind me of some of my reading kids.

:) Please show me where I said I had no control at all over anything.

[Milo_Bloom]

127. mesg_id=3403234

Trying is just tying that noose.

So just give up.

[ulysses]

129. that's interesting.

I can't read message 3403234, but I'm curious. What does it say, and why does it suggest that I should give up?

[Milo_Bloom]

130. Why would you want to tie the noose by trying?

[ulysses]

131. when all else fails, be silly?

:shrug:

[Milo_Bloom]

132. Like I said... just give up.

[ulysses]

133. and amazingly enough,

I still think I'll pass.

How about you give up?

[Milo_Bloom]

134. Oh, you think I am talking about this?

I am talking about trying in aspects of your job over which you claiim to have no control... you lost this fight a while ago.

[ulysses]

135. the discussion was about merit pay,

and I think I won that one. :D

[Milo_Bloom]

136. LOL

That's cute. Sorry, but you never offered a solution to compare. You just complained about having no control.

[ulysses]

137. you've never been in the classroom, evidently.

night.

[Milo_Bloom]

140. Don't need to be to watch you give on yourself...

Night.

[eridani]

142. Wonder what his cure for diabetes is

Hollering "Make more insulin, dammit!" at diabetics?

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. And I suppose you believe we have never tried that before?

:rofl:

[Milo_Bloom]

89. Not on a national level you haven't.

And that is the type of system that can work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. We have a national system in place now

It's called No Child Left Behind. And it is an abysmal failure.

The happiest day of my life as a teacher will be the day the federal government gets its nose out of our schools.

[Milo_Bloom]

114. The problem with NCLB is the control factor

The money should come from the government, the control and benchmarks should be local, as I stated.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. Then it isn't a national system

[Milo_Bloom]

121. Why not?

If the money is coming nationally, it is a national system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. LOL No you don't understand how education works

Funding is a teensy part of the picture here.

[Milo_Bloom]

141. Teensy? LOL.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. Yes teensy

There are these other things called standards and grade level expectations. Then there's curriculum and teacher training and certification. When the federal government dictates all of those, then we will have a national system.

[Milo_Bloom]

147. No.

You can and should have a national system without any of that.

[LeftishBrit]

145. Maybe not but WE have in the UK....

In a crude, extreme form in the 19th century; in subtler forms recently.

It doesn't work!

[LostInAnomie]

11. Fuck anyone that supports the merit pay scam.

It's union busting bullshit.

[maximusveritas]

44. Even if the unions and teachers support it?

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10715FA395B0C7B8DDDAF0894DF404482

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. "To read this archive article, upgrade to TimesSelect or purchase as a single article."

LOL I am just an underpaid public school teacher so I can't afford to read the article.

[maximusveritas]

90. Sorry, here's a better link

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/18/education/18pay.html?ex=1339819200&en=f2c4545c82704cc3&ei=5088&partner=rs

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. Thanks for the better link

Here are the reasons I oppose merit pay (and I do not know any teacher or teachers' union that supports it)

1. Too many teachers are locked out of merit pay bonuses. When they are based on student achievement (and that is the most popular model) teachers like me, who teach special ed, are left with zero chance of getting the bonus. My kids show minimal growth, have health problems that affect their attendance, and will NEVER make the same progress as their non-disabled peers. If they could meet the standard, they wouldn't be in special ed.

2. How do we pay counselors? The art teacher? Or the music teacher? The nurse? You bet they all have an impact on student achievement but it is impossible to measure and tie to a monetary bonus. So many non-educators have a mental image of a typical teacher in a classroom with typical kids. Yet there are many of us who don't have typical jobs and who don't work with typical kids. How do we decide how much these professionals are worth?

3. Regardless of the model, any merit pay system is administered by principals. They approve the merit pay bonuses. And in my 28 years in this business, I can think of ONE competent principal I have worked under. ONE. We are all so busy talking about bad teachers that we don't pay any attention to bad principals. Those of us in the business will tell you this is a very serious problem. The reason we have bad teachers is bad administrators who are too incompetent to figure out how to fire those bad teachers. So do I trust administrators who can't fire bad teachers to also be able to decide if I deserve a merit pay bonus? No way.

4. A merit pay system is based on the assumption that if schools were run like businesses, where employees are paid for performance, then the employees (teachers) will work harder. But every educator on the planet will tell you that you can't run a school like a business. Profit isn't our bottom line; kids are.

[LostInAnomie]

110. That is not the case.

That article gives one example that is the best case scenario. The union had a large amount of feedback and control of the implementation. This will not always be the case and as the article asserted on page two, it was not the case when Texas and Florida where it was abused.

It is a system that is easily corruptible, and will provide RWers, that hate public education and hate unions even more, a chance to strike a crushing blow.

[LWolf]

12. One of many good reasons to eschew the fucking DLC. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. I'll second that

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. I support DLC merit pay.

DLC would declare bankruptcy.

[ikojo]

26. Michael Bloomberg spoke at the National Urban

League Conference today and came out in support of teacher merit pay. Teachers have NO control over what takes place before that child is five. By five many poor kids are already behind their more middle class and upper middle class peers. What control does a TEACHER have over that? NONE! Many kids come to school ill prepared to read or even to sit still for as long as is required in the school setting.

We have asked the public schools to do more and more of what should be and used to be done in the home...provide breakfast AND lunch, provide before and after school care and take a student whose parents may think schooling is for the birds and get that kid to learn.

How many kids come from homes with NO books?

How many kids have NEVER been to a library before they went to school? I know when I was a kid we went to the library regularly. I used to look forward to getting a different colored card because that meant I could check out books for older kids

To hold teachers entirely responsible for the failure of many students is not fair. It's not a union thing it's a socio-economic thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. One more reason to hate the DLC

My list was running short. Thanks!!

[Progressive Friend]

138. LOL @ "center-left counterparts in Europe"

The DLC is far to the right of even the British Labour Party. A more honest comparison to the DLC in British politics would be the Conservative Party, which is not a crazy Evangelical fundamentalist party like the US Republican Party is.

Don't fall for the DLC propaganda. Support the PDA: http://www.pdamerica.org/

[Hippo_Tron]

143. Your analysis is pretty spot on...

Interestingly enough it seems as though there is a shift to the center by both parties in Britain. New Labour moved the party to the center, but they would still be considered pretty left wing by American standards.

Very recently the Conservatives have started moving more and more to the center, mostly because they feel that they need to do so in order to win an election.

I had a chance to meet with a Conservative MP and it was amazing that he was actually talking about real problems like Global Warming and alternative energy and said that he thinks their system of campaign finance with spending limits is far superior to the American system because you can't buy influence. I asked him if there were people in his party that deny global warming and he said that they are around, but they are on the fringe and don't have nearly the stature or get the attention of someone like Senator Inhofe.

[LeftishBrit]

144. Merit pay and related concepts are generally bad for education!

Market-style competition in the public services, whether between individuals or between institutions (as in our 'league tables' of schools in the UK), may sound like a good idea, but tends to prove disastrous. Schools become factories, teachers become assembly line workers, and children become processed peas.

Merit pay and league tables in education are usually based on test scores, sometimes supplemented by school inspections. This encourages 'teaching to the test'; the neglect of subjects or parts of subjects that are not tested; undue pressure on children who are seen as close to a test grade boundary; neglect of children who aren't; and reluctance to teach children who have special needs or are for other reasons unlikely to perform well in tests. And while some school inspections are necessary, lengthy school inspections, on which a teacher's or a school's funding depends, are likely to distract from actual teaching and prove counter-productive. A study in the UK showed that children did worse *on the government-required standardized tests* during and just after OFSTED inspections than at other times.

If test scores are not to be the criteria, then what are? The only likely alternative is ratings by pupils, parents or superiors - any of which can be corrupted easily.

At the beginnings of state education in the UK in the 19th century, teachers in state schools were paid by 'results'. This almost strangled state education at its beginning.

Here are some fascinating excerpts from the 1867 'General Report' by Matthew Arnold, well-known English poet *and* school inspector, referring to the effects of this system, introduced in 1862. (Part of the report was reprinted in Stuart Maclure's "Educational Documents"; Chapman, 1986.)

'The mode of teaching in the primary schools has certainly fallen off in intelligence, spirit and inventiveness during the four or five years after my last report. It could not well be otherwise. In a country where everyone is prone to rely too much on mechanical processes and too little on intelligence, a change in the Education Department's regulations, which by making two thirds of the Government grant depend on a mechanical examination, inevitably gives a mecahnical turn to the school teaching, a mechanical turn to the inspection, and must be trying to the intellectual life of a school...

More free play for the inspector, and more free play, in consequence, for the teacher, is what is wanted.In the game of mechanical contrivances, the teacher will in the end beat us... by ingenious preparation (of children for tests).'


Some things never change!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

148. Good post. I agree, and thanks for providing some historical background! nt